Question:

I’ve had bad ankle problems due to gout.  But recently realized that another problem is that my feet tilt.  When golfing, which a passion I love and cannot do walking anymore because of the pain, I noticed that I tend to severely tilt my left foot(my right foot does this too but not as bad) outwards.  I’ve don’t this so excessively at times that the outside of my shoes near my baby toe wear out a lot.  I also wear out the heal sole portion of my shoes on the outer half.  The pain in my ankles today was unbearable it was near the outside portion of the back part of my ankle. My questions are is this supination or pronation and will inserts with high arches help me or hurt me?  I am thinking that they will hurt me because it raises the inside of my foot. Thanks for any help, John

Response:

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve had bad ankle problems due to gout.  But recently realized that another problem is that my feet tilt.  When golfing, which a passion I love and cannot do walking anymore because of the pain, I noticed that I tend to severely tilt my left foot(my right foot does this too but not as bad) outwards.  I’ve don’t this so excessively at times that the outside of my shoes near my baby toe wear out a lot.  I also wear out the heal sole portion of my shoes on the outer half.  The pain in my ankles today was unbearable it was near the outside portion of the back part of my ankle. My questions are is this supination or pronation and will inserts with high arches help me or hurt me?  I am thinking that they will hurt me because it raises the inside of my foot. Thanks for any help, John

Some things to think about before supination and pronation. A previous post from 2002:

Are you splay footed?   /  This causes the posterior tibialis to be stretched and the arch to start to drop inward so that after years of this the arch is no longer supported by the posterior tibialis.  When this happens the stress is put upon the plantar fascia which is a sheath that inserts into the metatarsals and has its origin on the front of the calcaneus.  The plantar fascia is not made take the stress when the three muscles that maintain the arch do not do their job because of faulty mechanics often caused by the way we run. ___ All through last year I suffered with a pain in the ball of the foot. Podiatrist and surgeon diagnosed it as Capsulitis and metatarselitis respectively. Neither of them studied my gait or stride for either walking or running. Interesting that you brought up splayed feet as mine are very noticeable. It tended to get worse as I started to walk on the side of my foot due to the pain in the ball of the foot. At the end of the year I started getting pain in the tendon on the side of the knee, but below the knee, along the calf and down to above the ankle. So my question is:  Could these two injuries be related and could they stem from the same cause that being the splayed feet? Obviously you can’t diagnose me online, but is this within the realm of reason to take to a 3rd doctor? Thanks Ed, Some thoughts and some rec.running addenda: Summary: Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet and Your Bunions Splay Feet   / and Bunions may have more to do with what you do unconsciously.  The way you stand may have more to do with the muscles in your upper legs.  And you never even thought about it.  Until now. Thanks to Erik Sten for reminding me about Bunions. The bunion is usually a result of the feet / rather than | |. Keeps pushing out the cartilage out and the cartilage calcifies and voila, le bunion. You might want to take thee to a Rolfer or someone that does postural integration and the problem more often than not is in the hips that create the splay. Leroy Perry had people rotate the heels out first to straight the hips and then bring the feet together so they were aligned | |. Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet & Bunions: Thank You LeRoy Perry c. 2000, 2002 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D. Piriformis What it does: Piriformis rotates your thigh laterally (turns it outward). Piriformis abducts (ab(Latin) from/away from; duco lead, direct [ad=to or toward]) or turns the thigh away from the body when your leg is flexed. Piriformis is attached onto the front of the sacrum (origin) and inserts into the top of the femur (insertion) – sort of at the top and inward on the greater trochanter. Piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg outwards. You now can see how the hyper-tense (overly tight) gluts which has as its job of laterally (outside) rotating the thigh. That rotation or turning the thigh outward So if the piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg out along with the gluteus max which laterally rotates the thigh, when these muscles become hypertonic (overly tight) they assist in rotating the entire thigh…and the lower leg and foot also go along for the ride. So more than likely, you’ll often see that when you stand or walk or run through some water and look at your running foot prints they look like: ../ ../ and not | ..| | ..| and when you stand up brushing your teeth in the morning or standing around not thinking about how you’re standing and you look down at your feet, you will see / and not ||. Now to correct this you you’ll bring the front of your feet / together ||. But the problem is that, if you go back to what you’ve just learned from the info about the piriformis and the glut max, you’ll say to yourself: "Hmmmmmmmm, if I turn the front of the foot inward, I won’t have done (never good at English when I speak to myself) anything to the piriformis or the glut max. How can I best effect those muscles which may be a big part of my splay foot stance?" Ah now I see what Ozzie’s talking about. And you’ll say to yourself, "Oh, that’s why Ozzie thanks Leroy Perry to this day for showing him some of his chiropractic intuition and folklore at a workshop which helped Ozzie understand how to effect the foot at the origin of the splay footed problem" When you are standing / and want to get your feet to align | | 1. View your feet. Note if the feet are / evenly or more | or | / or some ankle between _ _ and | |. 2. If your feet are /, turn your heels outward so that if you were looking straight on into a mirror you would not be able to see the inside of your heel like you can when you look at your feet and you’re standing /. 3. Now that you can’t see your heels because you’re standing | |, lift one leg and bring it to a position so that it is directly aligned underneath your hip. Think of the legs as two columns upon which your pelvic is supported. 4. By turning out the heels first, you’re countered the lateral rotational tendency of the piriformis and the glut max. (Now isn’t that sweet.) Two more observations: 1. If you stand in front of a mirror and tighten your butt muscles you’ll see the thighs rotate to the outside. You don’t even know you’re using the piriformis since it’s so deep inside…just like you know know you’re using the psoas to kick a foot ball or kick your dog. 2. In "Preparation" in Tai Chi, you’ll notice that you start / and then to get into your "Beginning" stance you rotate the heels out to get into | |. When that happens your knees when they bend, bend straight ahead. Ahhhhhh. Well maybe you don’t say "Ahhhhhh" to yourself because you don’t know what the hell I getting at. Okay, Okay. If you chronically have a tendency to have hypertonic piriformi and glutei Maximi (Latin – nominative plural) you can now relate to why people call you "tight assed." Now trying to run like that /, and now ever thinking that your legs and feet are suppose to track | |, gives you some sense of the system upon which you stand, walk and run, and realize that those unnecessary torques and twists do have their effects over the seconds, minutes, hours, days, months and years because you’re doing it all the time….unconsciously. You’re practicing to stand in improper form and style and you’re not even thinking about it, let alone doing something about except when you consciously stretch and workout…and when you compare that to all the unconscious exercise you do by the way you walk, stand, sit and move….you realize that 7 or 10 or 20 hours a week of exercise is nothing. Because if you worked out 20 hours a week, slept 56 hours a week, you still have over 90 hours a week that you’re awake. Albeit unconscious, when you are sitting, standing, walking and moving without awareness: It’s not what you do that gets you in trouble. It’s what you do wrong and don’t know that you do wrong or incorrectly…all of those unconscious seconds…that gets you in trouble. Every injury, every overuse syndrome, every ache and pain you have related to physical movement started with a millisecond of unconscious improper movement…that you did but didn’t know that you did, because you never thought about it because you were unconscious thinking or worrying or daydreamsing about something else. It’s not what you know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know that just ain’t so. Sometimes it feels good to be a pain in the cerebral glutei and piriformi of people who suffer from psychosclerosis (English: hard headedness). I know I suffer from it, doesn’t everybody? Never mind. —end of article—- A post to rec.running from Rich Barkan: been there, done that I’m picking up this thread in the middle. I read with interest Ozzie’s recommendations about foot position and had some flashbacks to my own nightmare. I had a piriformis issue back in 91-92; from what I recall, the muscle was essentially atrophying from underuse. The big muscles were doing all the work due to my logging heavy effort daily long runs without any real cross training, i.e., overuse leading to a breakdown in my form (which wasn’t that great to begin with). After a couple of months of no running and physical therapy (including guided stretching, ice, electrical stimulation and voodoo), I was able to begin running again, paying attention to foot placement. The key to prevention of a reoccurance has been a combination of awareness of my footfalls, my trusty leather orthotics, and, most important, consistent stretching (before or after the workout) and varied workouts. Mixing speed, hills, easy days and long runs. In short, proper training and the yoga-position piriformis stretch teamed with stretching of the other muscles in the area that the Dr. Maffetone doctor has indicated The proper … read more »

Response:

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

Oz, why don’tcha just ANSWER THE QUESTION rather than repost your ‘wisdom of the ancients’ verses?

Response:

John, PLEASE trust me on this. You have a misaligned vertebrae causing your ankle problems. I have the same problem when my lower back is out. Go to a good, qualified chiro, whose been in business for many, many years (I recommewnd 20 minimum to avoid the new, young guys, who mainly go for adjusting your wallett)and I can promise you that you’ll return to 100% pain free after one or two visits. Also buy a pair od Asics 2090’s, and toss those nikes! Do these two things, and I can promise you that you’ll return to 100% pain free after one or two visits. TheBillRodgers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve had bad ankle problems due to gout.  But recently realized that another problem is that my feet tilt.  When golfing, which a passion I love and cannot do walking anymore because of the pain, I noticed that I tend to severely tilt my left foot(my right foot does this too but not as bad) outwards.  I’ve don’t this so excessively at times that the outside of my shoes near my baby toe wear out a lot.  I also wear out the heal sole portion of my shoes on the outer half.  The pain in my ankles today was unbearable it was near the outside portion of the back part of my ankle. My questions are is this supination or pronation and will inserts with high arches help me or hurt me?  I am thinking that they will hurt me because it raises the inside of my foot. Thanks for any help, John

Response:

P.S. Every nerve in your body runs through your spine, and a pinched nerve can cause pain in amy part of your body without your spine giving you even a small hint that it is involved. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve had bad ankle problems due to gout.  But recently realized that another problem is that my feet tilt.  When golfing, which a passion I love and cannot do walking anymore because of the pain, I noticed that I tend to severely tilt my left foot(my right foot does this too but not as bad) outwards.  I’ve don’t this so excessively at times that the outside of my shoes near my baby toe wear out a lot.  I also wear out the heal sole portion of my shoes on the outer half.  The pain in my ankles today was unbearable it was near the outside portion of the back part of my ankle. My questions are is this supination or pronation and will inserts with high arches help me or hurt me?  I am thinking that they will hurt me because it raises the inside of my foot. Thanks for any help, John

Response:

P.S. Every nerve in your body runs through your spine, and a pinched nerve can cause pain in amy part of your body without your spine giving you even a small hint that it is involved.

Hi, Wobbot.   Still practicing your own personal brand of psychotic medicine I see. Tell me, friend of chiropractors everywhere, is there anything that they CANNOT cure?  Gout?   Toothache? STD’s?

Response:

I’ve had bad ankle problems due to gout.  But recently realized that another problem is that my feet tilt.  When golfing, which a passion I love and cannot do walking anymore because of the pain, I noticed that I tend to severely tilt my left foot(my right foot does this too but not as bad) outwards.  I’ve don’t this so excessively at times that the outside of my shoes near my baby toe wear out a lot.  I also wear out the heal sole portion of my shoes on the outer half.  The pain in my ankles today was unbearable it was near the outside portion of the back part of my ankle. My questions are is this supination or pronation and will inserts with high arches help me or hurt me?  I am thinking that they will hurt me because it raises the inside of my foot.

This is a biomechanical issue beyond typical supination/pronation. It deserves proper medical attention. You may be prescribed orthotics, certain exercises, or whatever. Find yourself a podiatrist. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I’ve had bad ankle problems due to gout.  But recently realized that another problem is that my feet tilt.  When golfing, which a passion I love and cannot do walking anymore because of the pain, I noticed that I tend to severely tilt my left foot(my right foot does this too but not as bad) outwards.  

That is supination. I’ve don’t this so excessively at times that the outside of my shoes near my baby toe wear out a lot.  I also wear out the heal sole portion of my shoes on the outer half.

Wear on the outside of the heel is normal even among pronators. People typically strike with the heel laterally, and then the weight is transferred to the medial side of the forefoot before toeing off. The heel blocks of shoes are often structured to reflect this: it’s quite typical to see a crescent-shaped section of the outsole at the heel separated from the rest of the outsole to create a kind of strike pad. That crescent faces slightly to the outside rather than straight back. The pain in my ankles today was unbearable it was near the outside portion of the back part of my ankle. My questions are is this supination or pronation and will inserts with high arches help me or hurt me?

Inserts with high arches will either do absolutely nothing because of your supination, or, if you have low arches, they will protrude into your arch and cause discomfort, and possibly bruising and blistering. Supinators should generally look for road training shoes that have lots of cushioning, like the Asics Gel-Nimbus.

Response:

I’ve had bad ankle problems due to gout.  But recently realized that another problem is that my feet tilt.  When golfing, which a passion I love and cannot do walking anymore because of the pain, I noticed that I tend to severely tilt my left foot(my right foot does this too but not as bad) outwards.   That is supination.

Supination does not mean that your foot is tilted outwards in a supinated position, it means that one supinates during impact. Basically almost never happens. Actually, if impact is in a heavily supinated position, he’s more likely to be a heavy pronator. He could also have splayed feet or bowlegs (which could lead to impact in a heavily supinated position and wear on the outer perimeter of the shoe) But he possibly (based on what he’s said, almost certainly) has further problems with his biomechanics, that really need to get looked at. I’ve don’t this so excessively at times that the outside of my shoes near my baby toe wear out a lot.  I also wear out the heal sole portion of my shoes on the outer half. Wear on the outside of the heel is normal even among pronators. People

But not wear on the baby toe. Indicates lack of pronation or splayed feet. Inserts with high arches will either do absolutely nothing because of your supination, or, if you have low arches, they will protrude into your arch and cause discomfort, and possibly bruising and blistering. Supinators should generally look for road training shoes that have lots of cushioning, like the Asics Gel-Nimbus.

I’ve worn the Nimbus and I can assure anyone that while it’s not a bad shoe, it is not miraculous enough to instantly cure this guys foot problems. He needs a podiatrist, not a cushion shoe. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I’ve had bad ankle problems due to gout.  But recently realized that another problem is that my feet tilt.  When golfing, which a passion I love and cannot do walking anymore because of the pain, I noticed that I tend to severely tilt my left foot(my right foot does this too but not as bad) outwards. He could also have splayed feet or bowlegs (which could lead to impact in a heavily supinated position and wear on the outer perimeter of the shoe)

Oooh, ooooh, tell me more!  I’m not the OP, but I have splayed feet (had ‘em all my 45 years, kids used to make fun of me in the snow, /   /   /, and I have an unbelieveble amount of wear on the outer perimeter of my shoe (on the forefoot, not that much on the heel, though). I also think that I have a medium to low arch.  Looks like it collapses when I put weight on it also. I use a SuperFeet footbed.  (I’m also the Creed wearer, from another post). All that being said, though, I’m not in any pain.  My shoes feel fine to me. From the other post, I’m thinking of moving to the 2090, but wonder also if I could use something well cusioned, something like a Mizuno, or another model of Asics. It’s been mentioned that the other guy needs a podiatrist, but I suspect I do not, since I’m not having any problems.  Of course, it might be better to head things off at the pass. I’m currently at 30 mpw with no problems.   Hmmmm.  My running club DOES have a member who is a podiatrist too…

Response:

Tell me, friend of chiropractors everywhere, is there anything that they CANNOT cure?  Gout?   Toothache? STD’s?

Don

Question:

Does anyone know what a pain in the inside of your hip could mean? Its not as inside as a groin pull, more toward the front. I can’t decide if its deep in the joint or in the muscle. jack h

I always thought of my injury as a groin injury but never really checked it out. Mine sounds like what you are describing. I feel it when I stretch.While in a yoga position, the left side of my leg refuses to go down as far to the ground as my right. All I can suggest is that you constantly concentrate on your hamstrings. Once they tighten up all kinds of things go wrong. (back, neck, shoulders, knees…) Spend the time on stretching (as boring and painful as it can be) and really concentrate where the center of pain is. Breathe slowly and allow those little stretching increments to lengthten and before you know it, you’ll feel much, much better. It isn’t a once a week thing either. Do it every day. We are all in such a rush to get out there and think that two, three weeks off will solve the mystery. You should be stretching those three weeks, because your ham strings are going to be just as tight the day you go back to running as they were the day you decided to take a break, if you weren’t stretching. Rest does not loosen your muscels. You have to stretch!

Response:

Does anyone know what a pain in the inside of your hip could mean? Its not as inside as a groin pull, more toward the front. I can’t decide if its deep in the joint or in the muscle. jack h If it’s like mine, it could be the hip flexor, a

Gavin, Exercise doesn’t seem to aggravate my pain. But, I can’t sit watching a movie without it really starting to hurt. Does this describe your problem with the hip flexor? Jack H

Response:

Does anyone know what a pain in the inside of your hip could mean? Its not as inside as a groin pull, more toward the front. I can’t decide if its deep in the joint or in the muscle. jack h

Hmmm.  You are describing a pain in the ass that interferes with your running. I suppose divorce is one solution. Jennifer – ok, ok gimme a break; there may be other solutions

Response:

Does anyone know what a pain in the inside of your hip could mean? Its not as inside as a groin pull, more toward the front. I can’t decide if its deep in the joint or in the muscle. jack h

Response:

Does anyone know what a pain in the inside of your hip could mean? Its not as inside as a groin pull, more toward the front. I can’t decide if its deep in the joint or in the muscle. jack h

If it’s like mine, it could be the hip flexor, and it’s a real pain, as it messes up your ability to run!!! I was just starting to get into a routine of regular running, I ran too fast one day, started to get the pain, which has now forced me to take 4 weeks off running. Gavin (making all the new runner mistakes, it seems) —

Response:

Generally I run 3 or 4 mornings a week ( 5 mile runs ) but after a little muscle strain after laying some concrete I missed 7 days and then had an easy run.  After this I had a slight pain in my right hip. I left it for 4 days and went out this morning again and within 50 yards I felt a slight pain in the hip again altough I was still able to run the 5 miles without it re-occuring.  However all day today I have occasionally felt a twinge in the hip. I do stretch for about 15mins before I go out. Question is :—  Is this an injury from running or is it maybe a trapped nerve or something. If you have experienced this or something similar I would appreciate any advice. Thanks in advance Steve

Response:

Generally I run 3 or 4 mornings a week ( 5 mile runs ) but after a little muscle strain after laying some concrete I missed 7 days and then had an easy run.  After this I had a slight pain in my right hip. I left it for 4 days and went out this morning again and within 50 yards I felt a slight pain in the hip again altough I was still able to run the 5 miles without it re-occuring.  However all day today I have occasionally felt a twinge in the hip. I do stretch for about 15mins before I go out.

SNIP As I become an expert in injury running I had something like this a while ago. It meant a change in shoes for me. In any case, do NOT try to run thru something like this. Believe me, it only makes it worse. One thing us runners need is patience and as hard as it is to NOT run (Believe me), you should not.

Response:

I had some problem like you described.  For me, it happened when I tried to run speed session on a track at an initial speed to fast for my training level at that time. It took me some times to understand the reason of these pains (hip and foot), but I didn’t want to stop training because I had a marathon coming.  What I did was to stop the speed session and, I did return to the training I was used to (since one year) at a more easy pace on the road.  During the next days and weeks I saw the pain disapears.  Now I’m back on the speed session, but I do them a bit slower and I don’t feel the pain. Hope it helps. Ray – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Generally I run 3 or 4 mornings a week ( 5 mile runs ) but after a little muscle strain after laying some concrete I missed 7 days and then had an easy run.  After this I had a slight pain in my right hip. I left it for 4 days and went out this morning again and within 50 yards I felt a slight pain in the hip again altough I was still able to run the 5 miles without it re-occuring.  However all day today I have occasionally felt a twinge in the hip. I do stretch for about 15mins before I go out. Question is :—  Is this an injury from running or is it maybe a trapped nerve or something. If you have experienced this or something similar I would appreciate any advice. Thanks in advance Steve

Response:

Generally I run 3 or 4 mornings a week ( 5 mile runs ) but after a little muscle strain after laying some concrete I missed 7 days and then had an easy run.  After this I had a slight pain in my right hip.

It can be that hip pain originates from problems with ITB like the outside of the knee. I had ITB problems that originated on my right knee, went up to my right hip, then the compensated running to alleviate that pain put pressure on my other leg, so I got pain in my left hip which finally went to my left knee! Nigel (now training sensibly, with orthotics and (so far) no ITB pain ) — Nigel Bailey Reborn to run. http://www.nigelbailey.demon.co.uk/running

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It can be that hip pain originates from problems with ITB like the outside of the knee. I had ITB problems that ori

I have a new pain in my hip too. where in the hip does a itb problem hurt? jack

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On me ITB hip pain hurts on the most sticking-out part of my pelvis on my side below my waist.  I have been able to get rid of much of the pain my stretching the ITB.  I can’t really describe the stretch, but I believe that it is described on the runner’s world site and other stretching for runners sites. lisa susan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It can be that hip pain originates from problems with ITB like the outside of the knee. I had ITB problems that ori I have a new pain in my hip too. where in the hip does a itb problem hurt? jack

Response:

It can be that hip pain originates from problems with ITB like the outside of the knee. I had ITB problems that ori I have a new pain in my hip too. where in the hip does a itb problem hurt? jack

I’m sorry, I’m not a doctor, but it’s kind of…in the hip! IIRC it’s the knobbly bit level with your groin on the outside. Can’t help much than that other than to suggest looking on the internet (or a book) for a diagram of the ITB. The pain is basically at each end where it joins the knee and hip — Nigel Bailey Reborn to run. http://www.nigelbailey.demon.co.uk/running

Response:

I have just started noticing a dull pain in my right hip joint after running. The last two times I ran, I noticed I was limping slightly afterwards. I have been running casually for a while, but have been training quite hard recently to try and get my weight down. It is not noticable when I run, just afterwards, and seems to go away quite quickly, although I notice it even now if I stand up and push my hip out to the right hand side. Does anyone know if this could be the start of an injury? Thanks in advance Russell.

Response:

    Have you increased your mileage recently?  Has the temperature decreased recently? — Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1  It’s Irish Math

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have just started noticing a dull pain in my right hip joint after running. The last two times I ran, I noticed I was limping slightly afterwards. I have been running casually for a while, but have been training quite hard recently to try and get my weight down. It is not noticable when I run, just afterwards, and seems to go away quite quickly, although I notice it even now if I stand up and push my hip out to the right hand side. Does anyone know if this could be the start of an injury? Thanks in advance Russell.

Response:

   Have you increased your mileage recently?  Has the temperature decreased recently?

Hi Joseph, Thanks for the reply, I have increased my mileage (and pace) recently, but the temperature has increased as we are going through a heatwave here at the moment. Midday is around 33 celsius (91 farenheit). Its around 28 celsius (82 farenheit) when I run in the evenings. Regards, Russell.

Response:

I have just started noticing a dull pain in my right hip joint after running. The last two times I ran, I noticed I was limping slightly afterwards. I have been running casually for a while, but have been training quite hard recently to try and get my weight down. It is not noticable when I run, just afterwards, and seems to go away quite quickly, although I notice it even now if I stand up and push my hip out to the right hand side. Does anyone know if this could be the start of an injury?

Russell,     I have dealt with similar pain in the past.  Adequate stretching solves the problem for me.  Try those designed for the illiotibial band and see if that doesn’t make a difference.  You will be amazed at how quickly that will help if that’s what the problem is. Michelle

Response:

I think Michelle hit it on the nose.  I’ve been having similar problems and have been told it is IT band.  You can still run on it it will just hurt some. Try the stretches recommended for this problem, they help.  Also, make sure you are in a correct pair of shoes.  Some people who need motion control and don’t use it get IT problems. Andy Hass – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have just started noticing a dull pain in my right hip joint after running. The last two times I ran, I noticed I was limping slightly afterwards. I have been running casually for a while, but have been training quite hard recently to try and get my weight down. It is not noticable when I run, just afterwards, and seems to go away quite quickly, although I notice it even now if I stand up and push my hip out to the right hand side. Does anyone know if this could be the start of an injury? Russell,     I have dealt with similar pain in the past.  Adequate stretching solves the problem for me.  Try those designed for the illiotibial band and see if that doesn’t make a difference.  You will be amazed at how quickly that will help if that’s what the problem is. Michelle

Response:

    I would say that is the problem, more miles first and maybe the pace. — Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1  It’s Irish Math

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Have you increased your mileage recently?  Has the temperature decreased recently? Hi Joseph, Thanks for the reply, I have increased my mileage (and pace) recently, but the temperature has increased as we are going through a heatwave here at the moment. Midday is around 33 celsius (91 farenheit). Its around 28 celsius (82 farenheit) when I run in the evenings. Regards, Russell.

Response:

I have just started noticing a dull pain in my right hip joint after running. The last two times I ran, I noticed I was limping slightly afterwards. I have been running casually for a while, but have been training quite hard recently to try and get my weight down. It is not noticable when I run, just afterwards, and seems to go away quite quickly, although I notice it even now if I stand up and push my hip out to the right hand side. Does anyone know if this could be the start of an injury? Thanks in advance Russell.

   You should get your weight down first, then train.Otherwise you    will get joint, and in particular, muscle pain.Don’t you have an advisor,    or a g ym, or don’t you read books on the subject?…KS

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Question:

I don’t recall a "tl" …  You’ll have to refresh my memory….   There is or was a Tonya and there is still a Tirya (did I spell that right). Unless you are speaking of "she whose name must not be mentioned" – phsycho bitch from hell…. (PBFH) who has the first initial of "a" and the last initial of "l" and we do not mention the name because she shows up.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do I dare ask?  I was just thinking about my previous time here at ASD, and remembered a poster with the initials TL.  She really used to stir things up here.  Has she been gone long? Determined

Response:

Do I dare ask?  I was just thinking about my previous time here at ASD, and remembered a poster with the initials TL.  She really used to stir things up here.  Has she been gone long? Determined

Response:

Yes – that would be PBFH…   I forgot about that screen name, she’s had so many – as her real name is the intials I mentioned below. We don’t mention that name around here – because she shows back up and causes all kinds of problems when she does.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, without coming out and saying it – her screen name was (opposite of false) (a yoga position)  How’s that? I don’t recall a "tl" …  You’ll have to refresh my memory….   There is or was a Tonya and there is still a Tirya (did I spell that right). Unless you are speaking of "she whose name must not be mentioned" – phsycho bitch from hell…. (PBFH) who has the first initial of "a" and the last initial of "l" and we do not mention the name because she shows up. Do I dare ask?  I was just thinking about my previous time here at ASD, and remembered a poster with the initials TL.  She really used to stir things up here.  Has she been gone long? Determined

Response:

Hi, Ok, without coming out and saying it – her screen name was (opposite of false) (a yoga position)  How’s that?

AL, She Who Must Not Be Named and TL are all one and the same. — Take care, Carmen Geocachers get right to the point. http://members14.clubphoto.com/carmen634742/guest-1.phtml

Response:

Ok, without coming out and saying it – her screen name was (opposite of false) (a yoga position)  How’s that?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t recall a "tl" …  You’ll have to refresh my memory….   There is or was a Tonya and there is still a Tirya (did I spell that right). Unless you are speaking of "she whose name must not be mentioned" – phsycho bitch from hell…. (PBFH) who has the first initial of "a" and the last initial of "l" and we do not mention the name because she shows up. Do I dare ask?  I was just thinking about my previous time here at ASD, and remembered a poster with the initials TL.  She really used to stir things up here.  Has she been gone long? Determined

Response:

And here I thought you guys were just missing me :^)  I’m alive, barely, and in need of losing about 10 pounds.  Provided the DC Sniper doesn’t shoot me in the meantime.  Talk about cabin fever. Julie aka JulieAnne

HEY CHickie!!! Here’s hoping the 2 guys the caught this am are the real ones and your worries can be put to rest.   What an ordial that has been. Hope all is well with you.  I have missed you!

Response:

Found it – some similarities in the physical weight and martial arts and eating habits – but height is off, and temperment of email and responses to suggestions are just totally uncharacteristic.   Also – headers aren’t the same.   Which could be due to an ISP change or something.   But my original gut feeling is – not the same person. Even when she posed as "bob" she was transparent over a short period of time – it was her responses and how she handled criticism that gave her away. Last couple times she’s shown up its either been her original isp account or the anon. account. Thanks for the heads up – I will keep my eyes open though.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m fairly sure the poster by the name of "*****"  her as well. There were some comments about Martial Arts and some other stuff that reminded me of "she who will not be named". Melissa oh – oh – oh ….   I missed it …   Now I’m real curious about it … You must give a hint as to what it was. She was here just last week under a new name.   No one else seemed to pick up on it, and I didn’t mention it either because I didn’t want to stir it back up again. Melissa Hi, Ok, without coming out and saying it – her screen name was (opposite of false) (a yoga position)  How’s that? AL, She Who Must Not Be Named and TL are all one and the same. — Take care, Carmen Geocachers get right to the point. http://members14.clubphoto.com/carmen634742/guest-1.phtml

Response:

Yup, you spelled it right.  "TL" is also known as "She Who Must Not Be Named" if that helps any. ;D Tirya — TDC Inca Jeeper …which nicely encompasses three hobbies in one! "A person should never think they live in a society advanced enough to disregard the laws of nature." – Rastus in a.g.e

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t recall a "tl" …  You’ll have to refresh my memory….   There is or was a Tonya and there is still a Tirya (did I spell that right). Unless you are speaking of "she whose name must not be mentioned" – phsycho bitch from hell…. (PBFH) who has the first initial of "a" and the last initial of "l" and we do not mention the name because she shows up. Do I dare ask?  I was just thinking about my previous time here at ASD, and remembered a poster with the initials TL.  She really used to stir things up here.  Has she been gone long? Determined

Response:

darn, we missed it?  No doubt we were distracted by the overwhelming caleb/carol threads…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m fairly sure the poster by the name of "singa_lvr" was her as well. There were some comments about Martial Arts and some other stuff that reminded me of "she who will not be named". Melissa oh – oh – oh ….   I missed it …   Now I’m real curious about it … You must give a hint as to what it was. She was here just last week under a new name.   No one else seemed to pick up on it, and I didn’t mention it either because I didn’t want to stir it back up again. Melissa Hi, Ok, without coming out and saying it – her screen name was (opposite of false) (a yoga position)  How’s that? AL, She Who Must Not Be Named and TL are all one and the same. — Take care, Carmen Geocachers get right to the point. http://members14.clubphoto.com/carmen634742/guest-1.phtml

Response:

I’m fairly sure the poster by the name of "singa_lvr" was her as well. There were some comments about Martial Arts and some other stuff that reminded me of "she who will not be named". Melissa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – oh – oh – oh ….   I missed it …   Now I’m real curious about it … You must give a hint as to what it was. She was here just last week under a new name.   No one else seemed to pick up on it, and I didn’t mention it either because I didn’t want to stir it back up again. Melissa Hi, Ok, without coming out and saying it – her screen name was (opposite of false) (a yoga position)  How’s that? AL, She Who Must Not Be Named and TL are all one and the same. — Take care, Carmen Geocachers get right to the point. http://members14.clubphoto.com/carmen634742/guest-1.phtml

Response:

oh – oh – oh ….   I missed it …   Now I’m real curious about it …  You must give a hint as to what it was.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – She was here just last week under a new name.   No one else seemed to pick up on it, and I didn’t mention it either because I didn’t want to stir it back up again. Melissa Hi, Ok, without coming out and saying it – her screen name was (opposite of false) (a yoga position)  How’s that? AL, She Who Must Not Be Named and TL are all one and the same. — Take care, Carmen Geocachers get right to the point. http://members14.clubphoto.com/carmen634742/guest-1.phtml

Response:

She was here just last week under a new name.   No one else seemed to pick up on it, and I didn’t mention it either because I didn’t want to stir it back up again. Melissa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Ok, without coming out and saying it – her screen name was (opposite of false) (a yoga position)  How’s that? AL, She Who Must Not Be Named and TL are all one and the same. — Take care, Carmen Geocachers get right to the point. http://members14.clubphoto.com/carmen634742/guest-1.phtml

Response:

Hi Julie Another Julie posts her, a nurse. At first i thought it was you revealing a whole secret past. So happy to hear from you!In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And here I thought you guys were just missing me :^)  I’m alive, barely, and in need of losing about 10 pounds.  Provided the DC Sniper doesn’t shoot me in the meantime.  Talk about cabin fever. Julie aka JulieAnne HEY CHickie!!! Here’s hoping the 2 guys the caught this am are the real ones and your worries can be put to rest.   What an ordial that has been. Hope all is well with you.  I have missed you!

– Anne had a thousand days. I’ve only got a hundred. Diva

Response:

Question:

Janice — That crystal tumbler full of water and your use of your nice china is EXACTLY what I mean by stimulus control. Good for you! And I’d be willing to bet that a heck of a lot of binge behavior comes while people are standing up. I bet it feels good to have some control over it! One of the things I have noticed myself is that if I am sitting on a chair and am a bit scrunched up (that is my legs don’t dangle down), this kind of makes me aware of my tummy and related areas. But standing up, I don’t notice my tummy much, especially with the fridge calling to me. Over the last 40 plus days, I have been eating sitting down. Before then, I would do a heck of a lot of eating standing up. Great for you and your numbers! You sure are doing a LOT of things very well! Yours, Caleb

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Caleb I’m acutely aware that for me nearly all my binge behaviour has been standing up in the kitchen, not sitting down at the table in a structured way.  That speaks for itself, I think! While I’m following my "good" WOE, which is most of the time now, I do like to use nice china and I have a favourite cut glass crystal tumbler that I have my glass of sparkling mineral water in with my evening meal.  Even if I’m eating alone, I sit down properly at the table and set my place out.  It all helps to make it feel more leisurely and special. I know this isn’t quite what you’re asking – if I eat alone I sometimes play music, but nothing special that I associate with meals. We  sometimes catch up with videos of programmes we’ve recorded while we’re eating (it’s the only time we ever seem to sit down!) but I never read as I find that really intrudes on being able to notice what you’re eating and enjoying the food. janice 233/168/133

Response:

Caleb I’m acutely aware that for me nearly all my binge behaviour has been standing up in the kitchen, not sitting down at the table in a structured way.  That speaks for itself, I think! While I’m following my "good" WOE, which is most of the time now, I do like to use nice china and I have a favourite cut glass crystal tumbler that I have my glass of sparkling mineral water in with my evening meal.  Even if I’m eating alone, I sit down properly at the table and set my place out.  It all helps to make it feel more leisurely and special. I know this isn’t quite what you’re asking – if I eat alone I sometimes play music, but nothing special that I associate with meals. We  sometimes catch up with videos of programmes we’ve recorded while we’re eating (it’s the only time we ever seem to sit down!) but I never read as I find that really intrudes on being able to notice what you’re eating and enjoying the food. janice 233/168/133 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone play a special song or piece of music when they eat? Or use a particular placemat or use a particular plate, set of utensils when they have their meals? Or eat in only a particular place in their home? This general approach is called "stimulus control" and the basis for this approach is this: that if one eats only in certain circumstance (stimulus conditions), then it is easier to control the behavior over time and the cues for eating  are restricted to those particular settings. (This should make it more likely one will eat only at specific times and places.) I’m curious about what people have done (and are doing) regarding this. Does anyone regularly practice these methods? There is also a response cost aspect to such approaches. That is, one, over time, would not simply grab and eat what’s in the fridge, but must make time to set things up. This would slow down the eating, make it more likely (everything else being equal) that one will eat more healthily, etc. Yours, Caleb

Response:

Does anyone play a special song or piece of music when they eat? Or use a particular placemat or use a particular plate, set of utensils when they have their meals? Or eat in only a particular place in their home? This general approach is called "stimulus control" and the basis for this approach is this: that if one eats only in certain circumstance (stimulus conditions), then it is easier to control the behavior over time and the cues for eating  are restricted to those particular settings. (This should make it more likely one will eat only at specific times and places.) I’m curious about what people have done (and are doing) regarding this. Does anyone regularly practice these methods? There is also a response cost aspect to such approaches. That is, one, over time, would not simply grab and eat what’s in the fridge, but must make time to set things up. This would slow down the eating, make it more likely (everything else being equal) that one will eat more healthily, etc. Yours, Caleb

Response:

Actually, leg irons and a medievil face mask are a great help in keeping my stimulus response under control. Another aid is standing upside down in the Yoga position where your feet are up against the wall and the blood rushes to the head slows down the actual chewing and swallowing time. As to places to eat,  a former WW franchise holder in Ontario, Adelaide Daniels, used to cheat with candy bars in the bathroom. Her husband almost caught her one day but she threw them in the laundry hamper.  later, she tried to retrieve them.  Since the hamper was near a heating coil, they all melted. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone play a special song or piece of music when they eat? Or use a particular placemat or use a particular plate, set of utensils when they have their meals? Or eat in only a particular place in their home? This general approach is called "stimulus control" and the basis for this approach is this: that if one eats only in certain circumstance (stimulus conditions), then it is easier to control the behavior over time and the cues for eating  are restricted to those particular settings. (This should make it more likely one will eat only at specific times and places.) I’m curious about what people have done (and are doing) regarding this. Does anyone regularly practice these methods? There is also a response cost aspect to such approaches. That is, one, over time, would not simply grab and eat what’s in the fridge, but must make time to set things up. This would slow down the eating, make it more likely (everything else being equal) that one will eat more healthily, etc. Yours, Caleb

Response:

Question:

Ozzie (or anyone who cares to discuss this), It was interesting to find out that splayed feet and bunions may be effected by tight butt and piriformis muscles (my summary, hope it’s correct?). I have a couple of questions after reading your post as I’m not sure that I fully understand what you are saying: 1) I would like to learn more about stretching the piriformis if this will help alleviate the problem, or are you recommending that tight-assed people need to see a specialist? :0) 2) From what you say, I think that I might benefit from altering my everyday form and attempting to draw my slightly splayed feet inwards. Am I correct in thinking that your recommendation is to consciously effect this change whenever you think about it, and kinda make it a habit to turn out your heels whenever you think about it? I am sure after reading your post that my bunions, slightly splayed feet with low arches and prints in wet sand that are / ‘ish could be due to overtight muscles. I have horrendously tight hamstrings, that much I know for sure as when in the gym and doing those hamstring stretches where you sit up straight with legs in front and bend from the hip with a straight back, I see people (women!) bent double whereas I can only bend to about 85 degrees from the vertical. I don’t know if this is relevant at all? I also have very narrow hips (not good childbearing ones!). When I try to turn my feet to the || position, I feel the stretch deep inside the hips and it feels awfully tight. Appreciate your thoughts……. Anne.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you splay footed?   /  This causes the posterior tibialis to be stretched and the arch to start to drop inward so that after years of this the arch is no longer supported by the posterior tibialis.  When this happens the stress is put upon the plantar fascia which is a sheath that inserts into the metatarsals and has its origin on the front of the calcaneus.  The plantar fascia is not made take the stress when the three muscles that maintain the arch do not do their job because of faulty mechanics often caused by the way we run. ___ All through last year I suffered with a pain in the ball of the foot. Podiatrist and surgeon diagnosed it as Capsulitis and metatarselitis respectively. Neither of them studied my gait or stride for either walking or running. Interesting that you brought up splayed feet as mine are very noticeable. It tended to get worse as I started to walk on the side of my foot due to the pain in the ball of the foot. At the end of the year I started getting pain in the tendon on the side of the knee, but below the knee, along the calf and down to above the ankle. So my question is:  Could these two injuries be related and could they stem from the same cause that being the splayed feet? Obviously you can’t diagnose me online, but is this within the realm of reason to take to a 3rd doctor? Thanks Ed, Some thoughts and some rec.running addenda that might show the relationship of the hips to knees to pain in the arch of the foot: Summary: Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet and Your Bunions Splay Feet   / and Bunions may have more to do with what you do unconsciously.  The way you stand may have more to do with the muscles in your upper legs.  And you never even thought about it.  Until now. Thanks to Erik Sten for reminding me about Bunions. The bunion is usually a result of the feet / rather than | |. Keeps pushing out the cartilage out and the cartilage calcifies and voila, le bunion. You might want to take thee to a Rolfer or someone that does postural integration and the problem more often than not is in the hips that create the splay. Leroy Perry had people rotate the heels out first to straight the hips and then bring the feet together so they were aligned | |. Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet & Bunions: Thank You LeRoy Perry c. 2000, 2002 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D. Piriformis What it does: Piriformis rotates your thigh laterally (turns it outward). Piriformis abducts (ab(Latin) from/away from; duco lead, direct [ad=to or toward]) or turns the thigh away from the body when your leg is flexed. Piriformis is attached onto the front of the sacrum (origin) and inserts into the top of the femur (insertion) – sort of at the top and inward on the greater trochanter. Piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg outwards. You now can see how the hyper-tense (overly tight) gluts which has as its job of laterally (outside) rotating the thigh. That rotation or turning the thigh outward So if the piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg out along with the gluteus max which laterally rotates the thigh, when these muscles become hypertonic (overly tight) they assist in rotating the entire thigh…and the lower leg and foot also go along for the ride. So more than likely, you’ll often see that when you stand or walk or run through some water and look at your running foot prints they look like: ../ ../ and not | ..| | ..| and when you stand up brushing your teeth in the morning or standing around not thinking about how you’re standing and you look down at your feet, you will see / and not ||. Now to correct this you you’ll bring the front of your feet / together ||. But the problem is that, if you go back to what you’ve just learned from the info about the piriformis and the glut max, you’ll say to yourself: "Hmmmmmmmm, if I turn the front of the foot inward, I won’t have done (never good at English when I speak to myself) anything to the piriformis or the glut max. How can I best effect those muscles which may be a big part of my splay foot stance?" Ah now I see what Ozzie’s talking about. And you’ll say to yourself, "Oh, that’s why Ozzie thanks Leroy Perry to this day for showing him some of his chiropractic intuition and folklore at a workshop which helped Ozzie understand how to effect the foot at the origin of the splay footed problem" When you are standing / and want to get your feet to align | | 1. View your feet. Note if the feet are / evenly or more | or | / or some ankle between _ _ and | |. 2. If your feet are /, turn your heels outward so that if you were looking straight on into a mirror you would not be able to see the inside of your heel like you can when you look at your feet and you’re standing /. 3. Now that you can’t see your heels because you’re standing | |, lift one leg and bring it to a position so that it is directly aligned underneath your hip. Think of the legs as two columns upon which your pelvic is supported. 4. By turning out the heels first, you’re countered the lateral rotational tendency of the piriformis and the glut max. (Now isn’t that sweet.) Two more observations: 1. If you stand in front of a mirror and tighten your butt muscles you’ll see the thighs rotate to the outside. You don’t even know you’re using the piriformis since it’s so deep inside…just like you know know you’re using the psoas to kick a foot ball or kick your dog. 2. In "Preparation" in Tai Chi, you’ll notice that you start / and then to get into your "Beginning" stance you rotate the heels out to get into | |. When that happens your knees when they bend, bend straight ahead. Ahhhhhh. Well maybe you don’t say "Ahhhhhh" to yourself because you don’t know what the hell I getting at. Okay, Okay. If you chronically have a tendency to have hypertonic piriformi and glutei Maximi (Latin – nominative plural) you can now relate to why people call you "tight assed." Now trying to run like that /, and now ever thinking that your legs and feet are suppose to track | |, gives you some sense of the system upon which you stand, walk and run, and realize that those unnecessary torques and twists do have their effects over the seconds, minutes, hours, days, months and years because you’re doing it all the time….unconsciously. You’re practicing to stand in improper form and style and you’re not even thinking about it, let alone doing something about except when you consciously stretch and workout…and when you compare that to all the unconscious exercise you do by the way you walk, stand, sit and move….you realize that 7 or 10 or 20 hours a week of exercise is nothing. Because if you worked out 20 hours a week, slept 56 hours a week, you still have over 90 hours a week that you’re awake. Albeit unconscious, when you are sitting, standing, walking and moving without awareness: It’s not what you do that gets you in trouble. It’s what you do wrong and don’t know that you do wrong or incorrectly…all of those unconscious seconds…that gets you in trouble. Every injury, every overuse syndrome, every ache and pain you have related to physical movement started with a millisecond of unconscious improper movement…that you did but didn’t know that you did, because you never thought about it because you were unconscious thinking or worrying or daydreamsing about something else. It’s not what you know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know that just ain’t so. Sometimes it feels good to be a pain in the cerebral glutei and piriformi of people who suffer from psychosclerosis (English: hard headedness). I know I suffer from it, doesn’t everybody? Never mind. —end of article—- A post to rec.running from Rich Barkan: been there, done that I’m picking up this thread in the middle. I read with interest Ozzie’s recommendations about foot position and had some flashbacks to my own nightmare. I

… read more »

Response:

Hahahaha hahahahah heheheeheh plodzilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anne as dumb as this sounds i buddied up with a jazz/ballet dancer, She helps with me stretching ( can we all say oh my God) and i help her with her runs , A great trade off , Whew! I thought we might need to call a censor. A male friend of mine is also in yoga and was showing me some of the postures from his classes. With him being an all American male I asked him how he holds his concentration in a coed class. His response….it’s not always easy. -Doug

Response:

Anne as dumb as this sounds i buddied up with a jazz/ballet dancer, She helps with me stretching ( can we all say oh my God) and i help her with her runs , A great trade off ,

Whew! I thought we might need to call a censor. A male friend of mine is also in yoga and was showing me some of the postures from his classes. With him being an all American male I asked him how he holds his concentration in a coed class. His response….it’s not always easy. -Doug

Response:

Not terribly helpful guys but I did ask for your thoughts and I guess that’s what I got?? :0) Anne. Only herself to blame. Can see that some forethought must go into the wording of the queries sent to this NG due to the prevalence of ‘all-American males’!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anne as dumb as this sounds i buddied up with a jazz/ballet dancer, She helps with me stretching ( can we all say oh my God) and i help her with her runs , A great trade off , Whew! I thought we might need to call a censor. A male friend of mine is also in yoga and was showing me some of the postures from his classes. With him being an all American male I asked him how he holds his concentration in a coed class. His response….it’s not always easy. -Doug

Response:

Anne as dumb as this sounds i buddied up with a jazz/ballet dancer, She helps with me stretching ( can we all say oh my God) and i help her with her runs , A great trade off , plodzilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ozzie (or anyone who cares to discuss this), It was interesting to find out that splayed feet and bunions may be effected by tight butt and piriformis muscles (my summary, hope it’s correct?). I have a couple of questions after reading your post as I’m not sure that I fully understand what you are saying: 1) I would like to learn more about stretching the piriformis if this will help alleviate the problem, or are you recommending that tight-assed people need to see a specialist? :0) 2) From what you say, I think that I might benefit from altering my everyday form and attempting to draw my slightly splayed feet inwards. Am I correct in thinking that your recommendation is to consciously effect this change whenever you think about it, and kinda make it a habit to turn out your heels whenever you think about it? I am sure after reading your post that my bunions, slightly splayed feet with low arches and prints in wet sand that are / ‘ish could be due to overtight muscles. I have horrendously tight hamstrings, that much I know for sure as when in the gym and doing those hamstring stretches where you sit up straight with legs in front and bend from the hip with a straight back, I see people (women!) bent double whereas I can only bend to about 85 degrees from the vertical. I don’t know if this is relevant at all? I also have very narrow hips (not good childbearing ones!). When I try to turn my feet to the || position, I feel the stretch deep inside the hips and it feels awfully tight. Appreciate your thoughts……. Anne. Are you splay footed?   /  This causes the posterior tibialis to be stretched and the arch to start to drop inward so that after years of this the arch is no longer supported by the posterior tibialis.  When this happens the stress is put upon the plantar fascia which is a sheath that inserts into the metatarsals and has its origin on the front of the calcaneus.  The plantar fascia is not made take the stress when the three muscles that maintain the arch do not do their job because of faulty mechanics often caused by the way we run. ___ All through last year I suffered with a pain in the ball of the foot. Podiatrist and surgeon diagnosed it as Capsulitis and metatarselitis respectively. Neither of them studied my gait or stride for either walking or running. Interesting that you brought up splayed feet as mine are very noticeable. It tended to get worse as I started to walk on the side of my foot due to the pain in the ball of the foot. At the end of the year I started getting pain in the tendon on the side of the knee, but below the knee, along the calf and down to above the ankle. So my question is:  Could these two injuries be related and could they stem from the same cause that being the splayed feet? Obviously you can’t diagnose me online, but is this within the realm of reason to take to a 3rd doctor? Thanks Ed, Some thoughts and some rec.running addenda that might show the relationship of the hips to knees to pain in the arch of the foot: Summary: Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet and Your Bunions Splay Feet   / and Bunions may have more to do with what you do unconsciously.  The way you stand may have more to do with the muscles in your upper legs.  And you never even thought about it.  Until now. Thanks to Erik Sten for reminding me about Bunions. The bunion is usually a result of the feet / rather than | |. Keeps pushing out the cartilage out and the cartilage calcifies and voila, le bunion. You might want to take thee to a Rolfer or someone that does postural integration and the problem more often than not is in the hips that create the splay. Leroy Perry had people rotate the heels out first to straight the hips and then bring the feet together so they were aligned | |. Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet & Bunions: Thank You LeRoy Perry c. 2000, 2002 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D. Piriformis What it does: Piriformis rotates your thigh laterally (turns it outward). Piriformis abducts (ab(Latin) from/away from; duco lead, direct [ad=to or toward]) or turns the thigh away from the body when your leg is flexed. Piriformis is attached onto the front of the sacrum (origin) and inserts into the top of the femur (insertion) – sort of at the top and inward on the greater trochanter. Piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg outwards. You now can see how the hyper-tense (overly tight) gluts which has as its job of laterally (outside) rotating the thigh. That rotation or turning the thigh outward So if the piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg out along with the gluteus max which laterally rotates the thigh, when these muscles become hypertonic (overly tight) they assist in rotating the entire thigh…and the lower leg and foot also go along for the ride. So more than likely, you’ll often see that when you stand or walk or run through some water and look at your running foot prints they look like: ../ ../ and not | ..| | ..| and when you stand up brushing your teeth in the morning or standing around not thinking about how you’re standing and you look down at your feet, you will see / and not ||. Now to correct this you you’ll bring the front of your feet / together ||. But the problem is that, if you go back to what you’ve just learned from the info about the piriformis and the glut max, you’ll say to yourself: "Hmmmmmmmm, if I turn the front of the foot inward, I won’t have done (never good at English when I speak to myself) anything to the piriformis or the glut max. How can I best effect those muscles which may be a big part of my splay foot stance?" Ah now I see what Ozzie’s talking about. And you’ll say to yourself, "Oh, that’s why Ozzie thanks Leroy Perry to this day for showing him some of his chiropractic intuition and folklore at a workshop which helped Ozzie understand how to effect the foot at the origin of the splay footed problem" When you are standing / and want to get your feet to align | | 1. View your feet. Note if the feet are / evenly or more | or | / or some ankle between _ _ and | |. 2. If your feet are /, turn your heels outward so that if you were looking straight on into a mirror you would not be able to see the inside of your heel like you can when you look at your feet and you’re standing /. 3. Now that you can’t see your heels because you’re standing | |, lift one leg and bring it to a position so that it is directly aligned underneath your hip. Think of the legs as two columns upon which your pelvic is supported. 4. By turning out the heels first, you’re countered the lateral rotational tendency of the piriformis and the glut max. (Now isn’t that sweet.) Two more observations: 1. If you stand in front of a mirror and tighten your butt muscles you’ll see the thighs rotate to the outside. You don’t even know you’re using the piriformis since it’s so deep inside…just like you know know you’re using the psoas to kick a foot ball or kick your dog. 2. In "Preparation" in Tai Chi, you’ll notice that you start / and then to get into your "Beginning" stance you rotate the heels out to get into | |. When that happens your knees when they bend, bend straight ahead. Ahhhhhh. Well maybe you don’t say "Ahhhhhh" to yourself because you don’t know what the hell I getting at. Okay, Okay. If you chronically have a tendency to have hypertonic piriformi and glutei Maximi (Latin – nominative plural) you can now relate to why people call you "tight assed." Now trying to run like that /, and now ever thinking that your legs and feet are suppose to track | |, gives you some sense of the system upon which you stand, walk and run, and realize that those unnecessary torques and twists do have their effects over the seconds, minutes, hours, days, months and years because you’re doing it all the time….unconsciously. You’re practicing to stand in improper form and style and you’re not even thinking about it, let alone doing something about except when you consciously stretch and workout…and when you compare that to all the unconscious exercise you do by the way you walk, stand, sit and move….you realize that 7 or 10 or 20 hours a week of exercise is nothing. Because if you worked out 20 hours a week, slept 56 hours a week, you still have over 90 hours a week that you’re awake. Albeit unconscious, when you are sitting, standing, walking and moving without awareness: It’s not what you do that gets you in trouble. It’s what you do wrong and don’t know that you do wrong or incorrectly…all of those unconscious seconds…that gets you in trouble. Every injury, every overuse syndrome, every ache and pain you have related to physical movement started with a millisecond of unconscious improper movement…that you did but didn’t know that

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Response:

Are you splay footed?   /  This causes the posterior tibialis to be stretched and the arch to start to drop inward so that after years of this the arch is no longer supported by the posterior tibialis.  When this happens the stress is put upon the plantar fascia which is a sheath that inserts into the metatarsals and has its origin on the front of the calcaneus.  The plantar fascia is not made take the stress when the three muscles that maintain the arch do not do their job because of faulty mechanics often caused by the way we run. ___ All through last year I suffered with a pain in the ball of the foot. Podiatrist and surgeon diagnosed it as Capsulitis and metatarselitis respectively. Neither of them studied my gait or stride for either walking or running. Interesting that you brought up splayed feet as mine are very noticeable. It tended to get worse as I started to walk on the side of my foot due to the pain in the ball of the foot. At the end of the year I started getting pain in the tendon on the side of the knee, but below the knee, along the calf and down to above the ankle. So my question is:  Could these two injuries be related and could they stem from the same cause that being the splayed feet? Obviously you can’t diagnose me online, but is this within the realm of reason to take to a 3rd doctor? Thanks

Response:

Thank you.  I printed it out to read and digest thouroughly.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you splay footed?   /  This causes the posterior tibialis to be stretched and the arch to start to drop inward so that after years of this the arch is no longer supported by the posterior tibialis.  When this happens the stress is put upon the plantar fascia which is a sheath that inserts into the metatarsals and has its origin on the front of the calcaneus.  The plantar fascia is not made take the stress when the three muscles that maintain the arch do not do their job because of faulty mechanics often caused by the way we run. ___ All through last year I suffered with a pain in the ball of the foot. Podiatrist and surgeon diagnosed it as Capsulitis and metatarselitis respectively. Neither of them studied my gait or stride for either walking or running. Interesting that you brought up splayed feet as mine are very noticeable. It tended to get worse as I started to walk on the side of my foot due to the pain in the ball of the foot. At the end of the year I started getting pain in the tendon on the side of the knee, but below the knee, along the calf and down to above the ankle. So my question is:  Could these two injuries be related and could they stem from the same cause that being the splayed feet? Obviously you can’t diagnose me online, but is this within the realm of reason to take to a 3rd doctor? Thanks Ed, Some thoughts and some rec.running addenda that might show the relationship of the hips to knees to pain in the arch of the foot: Summary: Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet and Your Bunions Splay Feet   / and Bunions may have more to do with what you do unconsciously.  The way you stand may have more to do with the muscles in your upper legs.  And you never even thought about it.  Until now. Thanks to Erik Sten for reminding me about Bunions. The bunion is usually a result of the feet / rather than | |. Keeps pushing out the cartilage out and the cartilage calcifies and voila, le bunion. You might want to take thee to a Rolfer or someone that does postural integration and the problem more often than not is in the hips that create the splay. Leroy Perry had people rotate the heels out first to straight the hips and then bring the feet together so they were aligned | |. Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet & Bunions: Thank You LeRoy Perry c. 2000, 2002 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D. Piriformis What it does: Piriformis rotates your thigh laterally (turns it outward). Piriformis abducts (ab(Latin) from/away from; duco lead, direct [ad=to or toward]) or turns the thigh away from the body when your leg is flexed. Piriformis is attached onto the front of the sacrum (origin) and inserts into the top of the femur (insertion) – sort of at the top and inward on the greater trochanter. Piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg outwards. You now can see how the hyper-tense (overly tight) gluts which has as its job of laterally (outside) rotating the thigh. That rotation or turning the thigh outward So if the piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg out along with the gluteus max which laterally rotates the thigh, when these muscles become hypertonic (overly tight) they assist in rotating the entire thigh…and the lower leg and foot also go along for the ride. So more than likely, you’ll often see that when you stand or walk or run through some water and look at your running foot prints they look like: ../ ../ and not | ..| | ..| and when you stand up brushing your teeth in the morning or standing around not thinking about how you’re standing and you look down at your feet, you will see / and not ||. Now to correct this you you’ll bring the front of your feet / together ||. But the problem is that, if you go back to what you’ve just learned from the info about the piriformis and the glut max, you’ll say to yourself: "Hmmmmmmmm, if I turn the front of the foot inward, I won’t have done (never good at English when I speak to myself) anything to the piriformis or the glut max. How can I best effect those muscles which may be a big part of my splay foot stance?" Ah now I see what Ozzie’s talking about. And you’ll say to yourself, "Oh, that’s why Ozzie thanks Leroy Perry to this day for showing him some of his chiropractic intuition and folklore at a workshop which helped Ozzie understand how to effect the foot at the origin of the splay footed problem" When you are standing / and want to get your feet to align | | 1. View your feet. Note if the feet are / evenly or more | or | / or some ankle between _ _ and | |. 2. If your feet are /, turn your heels outward so that if you were looking straight on into a mirror you would not be able to see the inside of your heel like you can when you look at your feet and you’re standing /. 3. Now that you can’t see your heels because you’re standing | |, lift one leg and bring it to a position so that it is directly aligned underneath your hip. Think of the legs as two columns upon which your pelvic is supported. 4. By turning out the heels first, you’re countered the lateral rotational tendency of the piriformis and the glut max. (Now isn’t that sweet.) Two more observations: 1. If you stand in front of a mirror and tighten your butt muscles you’ll see the thighs rotate to the outside. You don’t even know you’re using the piriformis since it’s so deep inside…just like you know know you’re using the psoas to kick a foot ball or kick your dog. 2. In "Preparation" in Tai Chi, you’ll notice that you start / and then to get into your "Beginning" stance you rotate the heels out to get into | |. When that happens your knees when they bend, bend straight ahead. Ahhhhhh. Well maybe you don’t say "Ahhhhhh" to yourself because you don’t know what the hell I getting at. Okay, Okay. If you chronically have a tendency to have hypertonic piriformi and glutei Maximi (Latin – nominative plural) you can now relate to why people call you "tight assed." Now trying to run like that /, and now ever thinking that your legs and feet are suppose to track | |, gives you some sense of the system upon which you stand, walk and run, and realize that those unnecessary torques and twists do have their effects over the seconds, minutes, hours, days, months and years because you’re doing it all the time….unconsciously. You’re practicing to stand in improper form and style and you’re not even thinking about it, let alone doing something about except when you consciously stretch and workout…and when you compare that to all the unconscious exercise you do by the way you walk, stand, sit and move….you realize that 7 or 10 or 20 hours a week of exercise is nothing. Because if you worked out 20 hours a week, slept 56 hours a week, you still have over 90 hours a week that you’re awake. Albeit unconscious, when you are sitting, standing, walking and moving without awareness: It’s not what you do that gets you in trouble. It’s what you do wrong and don’t know that you do wrong or incorrectly…all of those unconscious seconds…that gets you in trouble. Every injury, every overuse syndrome, every ache and pain you have related to physical movement started with a millisecond of unconscious improper movement…that you did but didn’t know that you did, because you never thought about it because you were unconscious thinking or worrying or daydreamsing about something else. It’s not what you know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know that just ain’t so. Sometimes it feels good to be a pain in the cerebral glutei and piriformi of people who suffer from psychosclerosis (English: hard headedness). I know I suffer from it, doesn’t everybody? Never mind. —end of article—- A post to rec.running from Rich Barkan: been there, done that I’m picking up this thread in the middle. I read with interest Ozzie’s recommendations about foot position and had some flashbacks to my own nightmare. I had a piriformis issue back in 91-92; from what I recall, the muscle was essentially atrophying from underuse. The big muscles were doing all the work due to my logging heavy effort daily long runs without any real cross training, i.e., overuse leading to a breakdown in my form (which wasn’t that great to begin with). After a couple of months of no running and physical therapy (including guided stretching, ice, electrical stimulation and voodoo), I was able to begin running again, paying attention to foot placement. The key to prevention of a reoccurance has been a combination of awareness of my footfalls, my trusty leather orthotics, and, most important, consistent stretching (before or after the workout) and varied workouts. Mixing speed, hills, easy days and long runs. In short, proper training and the yoga-position piriformis stretch teamed with stretching of the other muscles in the area that the Dr. Maffetone doctor has indicated The proper stretch was the key, as I wasn’t able to find the right position until the PT showed me. regards Rich Barkan not a doctor, just an aging runner. Good information from Ozzie. Just to throw in one item, and demonstrate that it’s sometimes more complicated, many other muscles also serve as lateral rotators, including the psoas, illiacus, sartorius, some of the adductors, quadratus femoris, internal and

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Response:

Question:

Anne as dumb as this sounds i buddied up with a jazz/ballet dancer, She helps with me stretching ( can we all say oh my God) and i help her with her runs , A great trade off ,

Whew! I thought we might need to call a censor. A male friend of mine is also in yoga and was showing me some of the postures from his classes. With him being an all American male I asked him how he holds his concentration in a coed class. His response….it’s not always easy. -Doug

Response:

Not terribly helpful guys but I did ask for your thoughts and I guess that’s what I got?? :0) Anne. Only herself to blame. Can see that some forethought must go into the wording of the queries sent to this NG due to the prevalence of ‘all-American males’!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anne as dumb as this sounds i buddied up with a jazz/ballet dancer, She helps with me stretching ( can we all say oh my God) and i help her with her runs , A great trade off , Whew! I thought we might need to call a censor. A male friend of mine is also in yoga and was showing me some of the postures from his classes. With him being an all American male I asked him how he holds his concentration in a coed class. His response….it’s not always easy. -Doug

Response:

Hahahaha hahahahah heheheeheh plodzilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anne as dumb as this sounds i buddied up with a jazz/ballet dancer, She helps with me stretching ( can we all say oh my God) and i help her with her runs , A great trade off , Whew! I thought we might need to call a censor. A male friend of mine is also in yoga and was showing me some of the postures from his classes. With him being an all American male I asked him how he holds his concentration in a coed class. His response….it’s not always easy. -Doug

Response:

Anne as dumb as this sounds i buddied up with a jazz/ballet dancer, She helps with me stretching ( can we all say oh my God) and i help her with her runs , A great trade off , plodzilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ozzie (or anyone who cares to discuss this), It was interesting to find out that splayed feet and bunions may be effected by tight butt and piriformis muscles (my summary, hope it’s correct?). I have a couple of questions after reading your post as I’m not sure that I fully understand what you are saying: 1) I would like to learn more about stretching the piriformis if this will help alleviate the problem, or are you recommending that tight-assed people need to see a specialist? :0) 2) From what you say, I think that I might benefit from altering my everyday form and attempting to draw my slightly splayed feet inwards. Am I correct in thinking that your recommendation is to consciously effect this change whenever you think about it, and kinda make it a habit to turn out your heels whenever you think about it? I am sure after reading your post that my bunions, slightly splayed feet with low arches and prints in wet sand that are / ‘ish could be due to overtight muscles. I have horrendously tight hamstrings, that much I know for sure as when in the gym and doing those hamstring stretches where you sit up straight with legs in front and bend from the hip with a straight back, I see people (women!) bent double whereas I can only bend to about 85 degrees from the vertical. I don’t know if this is relevant at all? I also have very narrow hips (not good childbearing ones!). When I try to turn my feet to the || position, I feel the stretch deep inside the hips and it feels awfully tight. Appreciate your thoughts……. Anne. Are you splay footed?   /  This causes the posterior tibialis to be stretched and the arch to start to drop inward so that after years of this the arch is no longer supported by the posterior tibialis.  When this happens the stress is put upon the plantar fascia which is a sheath that inserts into the metatarsals and has its origin on the front of the calcaneus.  The plantar fascia is not made take the stress when the three muscles that maintain the arch do not do their job because of faulty mechanics often caused by the way we run. ___ All through last year I suffered with a pain in the ball of the foot. Podiatrist and surgeon diagnosed it as Capsulitis and metatarselitis respectively. Neither of them studied my gait or stride for either walking or running. Interesting that you brought up splayed feet as mine are very noticeable. It tended to get worse as I started to walk on the side of my foot due to the pain in the ball of the foot. At the end of the year I started getting pain in the tendon on the side of the knee, but below the knee, along the calf and down to above the ankle. So my question is:  Could these two injuries be related and could they stem from the same cause that being the splayed feet? Obviously you can’t diagnose me online, but is this within the realm of reason to take to a 3rd doctor? Thanks Ed, Some thoughts and some rec.running addenda that might show the relationship of the hips to knees to pain in the arch of the foot: Summary: Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet and Your Bunions Splay Feet   / and Bunions may have more to do with what you do unconsciously.  The way you stand may have more to do with the muscles in your upper legs.  And you never even thought about it.  Until now. Thanks to Erik Sten for reminding me about Bunions. The bunion is usually a result of the feet / rather than | |. Keeps pushing out the cartilage out and the cartilage calcifies and voila, le bunion. You might want to take thee to a Rolfer or someone that does postural integration and the problem more often than not is in the hips that create the splay. Leroy Perry had people rotate the heels out first to straight the hips and then bring the feet together so they were aligned | |. Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet & Bunions: Thank You LeRoy Perry c. 2000, 2002 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D. Piriformis What it does: Piriformis rotates your thigh laterally (turns it outward). Piriformis abducts (ab(Latin) from/away from; duco lead, direct [ad=to or toward]) or turns the thigh away from the body when your leg is flexed. Piriformis is attached onto the front of the sacrum (origin) and inserts into the top of the femur (insertion) – sort of at the top and inward on the greater trochanter. Piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg outwards. You now can see how the hyper-tense (overly tight) gluts which has as its job of laterally (outside) rotating the thigh. That rotation or turning the thigh outward So if the piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg out along with the gluteus max which laterally rotates the thigh, when these muscles become hypertonic (overly tight) they assist in rotating the entire thigh…and the lower leg and foot also go along for the ride. So more than likely, you’ll often see that when you stand or walk or run through some water and look at your running foot prints they look like: ../ ../ and not | ..| | ..| and when you stand up brushing your teeth in the morning or standing around not thinking about how you’re standing and you look down at your feet, you will see / and not ||. Now to correct this you you’ll bring the front of your feet / together ||. But the problem is that, if you go back to what you’ve just learned from the info about the piriformis and the glut max, you’ll say to yourself: "Hmmmmmmmm, if I turn the front of the foot inward, I won’t have done (never good at English when I speak to myself) anything to the piriformis or the glut max. How can I best effect those muscles which may be a big part of my splay foot stance?" Ah now I see what Ozzie’s talking about. And you’ll say to yourself, "Oh, that’s why Ozzie thanks Leroy Perry to this day for showing him some of his chiropractic intuition and folklore at a workshop which helped Ozzie understand how to effect the foot at the origin of the splay footed problem" When you are standing / and want to get your feet to align | | 1. View your feet. Note if the feet are / evenly or more | or | / or some ankle between _ _ and | |. 2. If your feet are /, turn your heels outward so that if you were looking straight on into a mirror you would not be able to see the inside of your heel like you can when you look at your feet and you’re standing /. 3. Now that you can’t see your heels because you’re standing | |, lift one leg and bring it to a position so that it is directly aligned underneath your hip. Think of the legs as two columns upon which your pelvic is supported. 4. By turning out the heels first, you’re countered the lateral rotational tendency of the piriformis and the glut max. (Now isn’t that sweet.) Two more observations: 1. If you stand in front of a mirror and tighten your butt muscles you’ll see the thighs rotate to the outside. You don’t even know you’re using the piriformis since it’s so deep inside…just like you know know you’re using the psoas to kick a foot ball or kick your dog. 2. In "Preparation" in Tai Chi, you’ll notice that you start / and then to get into your "Beginning" stance you rotate the heels out to get into | |. When that happens your knees when they bend, bend straight ahead. Ahhhhhh. Well maybe you don’t say "Ahhhhhh" to yourself because you don’t know what the hell I getting at. Okay, Okay. If you chronically have a tendency to have hypertonic piriformi and glutei Maximi (Latin – nominative plural) you can now relate to why people call you "tight assed." Now trying to run like that /, and now ever thinking that your legs and feet are suppose to track | |, gives you some sense of the system upon which you stand, walk and run, and realize that those unnecessary torques and twists do have their effects over the seconds, minutes, hours, days, months and years because you’re doing it all the time….unconsciously. You’re practicing to stand in improper form and style and you’re not even thinking about it, let alone doing something about except when you consciously stretch and workout…and when you compare that to all the unconscious exercise you do by the way you walk, stand, sit and move….you realize that 7 or 10 or 20 hours a week of exercise is nothing. Because if you worked out 20 hours a week, slept 56 hours a week, you still have over 90 hours a week that you’re awake. Albeit unconscious, when you are sitting, standing, walking and moving without awareness: It’s not what you do that gets you in trouble. It’s what you do wrong and don’t know that you do wrong or incorrectly…all of those unconscious seconds…that gets you in trouble. Every injury, every overuse syndrome, every ache and pain you have related to physical movement started with a millisecond of unconscious improper movement…that you did but didn’t know that

… read more »

Response:

Ozzie (or anyone who cares to discuss this), It was interesting to find out that splayed feet and bunions may be effected by tight butt and piriformis muscles (my summary, hope it’s correct?). I have a couple of questions after reading your post as I’m not sure that I fully understand what you are saying: 1) I would like to learn more about stretching the piriformis if this will help alleviate the problem, or are you recommending that tight-assed people need to see a specialist? :0) 2) From what you say, I think that I might benefit from altering my everyday form and attempting to draw my slightly splayed feet inwards. Am I correct in thinking that your recommendation is to consciously effect this change whenever you think about it, and kinda make it a habit to turn out your heels whenever you think about it? I am sure after reading your post that my bunions, slightly splayed feet with low arches and prints in wet sand that are / ‘ish could be due to overtight muscles. I have horrendously tight hamstrings, that much I know for sure as when in the gym and doing those hamstring stretches where you sit up straight with legs in front and bend from the hip with a straight back, I see people (women!) bent double whereas I can only bend to about 85 degrees from the vertical. I don’t know if this is relevant at all? I also have very narrow hips (not good childbearing ones!). When I try to turn my feet to the || position, I feel the stretch deep inside the hips and it feels awfully tight. Appreciate your thoughts……. Anne.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you splay footed?   /  This causes the posterior tibialis to be stretched and the arch to start to drop inward so that after years of this the arch is no longer supported by the posterior tibialis.  When this happens the stress is put upon the plantar fascia which is a sheath that inserts into the metatarsals and has its origin on the front of the calcaneus.  The plantar fascia is not made take the stress when the three muscles that maintain the arch do not do their job because of faulty mechanics often caused by the way we run. ___ All through last year I suffered with a pain in the ball of the foot. Podiatrist and surgeon diagnosed it as Capsulitis and metatarselitis respectively. Neither of them studied my gait or stride for either walking or running. Interesting that you brought up splayed feet as mine are very noticeable. It tended to get worse as I started to walk on the side of my foot due to the pain in the ball of the foot. At the end of the year I started getting pain in the tendon on the side of the knee, but below the knee, along the calf and down to above the ankle. So my question is:  Could these two injuries be related and could they stem from the same cause that being the splayed feet? Obviously you can’t diagnose me online, but is this within the realm of reason to take to a 3rd doctor? Thanks Ed, Some thoughts and some rec.running addenda that might show the relationship of the hips to knees to pain in the arch of the foot: Summary: Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet and Your Bunions Splay Feet   / and Bunions may have more to do with what you do unconsciously.  The way you stand may have more to do with the muscles in your upper legs.  And you never even thought about it.  Until now. Thanks to Erik Sten for reminding me about Bunions. The bunion is usually a result of the feet / rather than | |. Keeps pushing out the cartilage out and the cartilage calcifies and voila, le bunion. You might want to take thee to a Rolfer or someone that does postural integration and the problem more often than not is in the hips that create the splay. Leroy Perry had people rotate the heels out first to straight the hips and then bring the feet together so they were aligned | |. Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet & Bunions: Thank You LeRoy Perry c. 2000, 2002 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D. Piriformis What it does: Piriformis rotates your thigh laterally (turns it outward). Piriformis abducts (ab(Latin) from/away from; duco lead, direct [ad=to or toward]) or turns the thigh away from the body when your leg is flexed. Piriformis is attached onto the front of the sacrum (origin) and inserts into the top of the femur (insertion) – sort of at the top and inward on the greater trochanter. Piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg outwards. You now can see how the hyper-tense (overly tight) gluts which has as its job of laterally (outside) rotating the thigh. That rotation or turning the thigh outward So if the piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg out along with the gluteus max which laterally rotates the thigh, when these muscles become hypertonic (overly tight) they assist in rotating the entire thigh…and the lower leg and foot also go along for the ride. So more than likely, you’ll often see that when you stand or walk or run through some water and look at your running foot prints they look like: ../ ../ and not | ..| | ..| and when you stand up brushing your teeth in the morning or standing around not thinking about how you’re standing and you look down at your feet, you will see / and not ||. Now to correct this you you’ll bring the front of your feet / together ||. But the problem is that, if you go back to what you’ve just learned from the info about the piriformis and the glut max, you’ll say to yourself: "Hmmmmmmmm, if I turn the front of the foot inward, I won’t have done (never good at English when I speak to myself) anything to the piriformis or the glut max. How can I best effect those muscles which may be a big part of my splay foot stance?" Ah now I see what Ozzie’s talking about. And you’ll say to yourself, "Oh, that’s why Ozzie thanks Leroy Perry to this day for showing him some of his chiropractic intuition and folklore at a workshop which helped Ozzie understand how to effect the foot at the origin of the splay footed problem" When you are standing / and want to get your feet to align | | 1. View your feet. Note if the feet are / evenly or more | or | / or some ankle between _ _ and | |. 2. If your feet are /, turn your heels outward so that if you were looking straight on into a mirror you would not be able to see the inside of your heel like you can when you look at your feet and you’re standing /. 3. Now that you can’t see your heels because you’re standing | |, lift one leg and bring it to a position so that it is directly aligned underneath your hip. Think of the legs as two columns upon which your pelvic is supported. 4. By turning out the heels first, you’re countered the lateral rotational tendency of the piriformis and the glut max. (Now isn’t that sweet.) Two more observations: 1. If you stand in front of a mirror and tighten your butt muscles you’ll see the thighs rotate to the outside. You don’t even know you’re using the piriformis since it’s so deep inside…just like you know know you’re using the psoas to kick a foot ball or kick your dog. 2. In "Preparation" in Tai Chi, you’ll notice that you start / and then to get into your "Beginning" stance you rotate the heels out to get into | |. When that happens your knees when they bend, bend straight ahead. Ahhhhhh. Well maybe you don’t say "Ahhhhhh" to yourself because you don’t know what the hell I getting at. Okay, Okay. If you chronically have a tendency to have hypertonic piriformi and glutei Maximi (Latin – nominative plural) you can now relate to why people call you "tight assed." Now trying to run like that /, and now ever thinking that your legs and feet are suppose to track | |, gives you some sense of the system upon which you stand, walk and run, and realize that those unnecessary torques and twists do have their effects over the seconds, minutes, hours, days, months and years because you’re doing it all the time….unconsciously. You’re practicing to stand in improper form and style and you’re not even thinking about it, let alone doing something about except when you consciously stretch and workout…and when you compare that to all the unconscious exercise you do by the way you walk, stand, sit and move….you realize that 7 or 10 or 20 hours a week of exercise is nothing. Because if you worked out 20 hours a week, slept 56 hours a week, you still have over 90 hours a week that you’re awake. Albeit unconscious, when you are sitting, standing, walking and moving without awareness: It’s not what you do that gets you in trouble. It’s what you do wrong and don’t know that you do wrong or incorrectly…all of those unconscious seconds…that gets you in trouble. Every injury, every overuse syndrome, every ache and pain you have related to physical movement started with a millisecond of unconscious improper movement…that you did but didn’t know that you did, because you never thought about it because you were unconscious thinking or worrying or daydreamsing about something else. It’s not what you know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know that just ain’t so. Sometimes it feels good to be a pain in the cerebral glutei and piriformi of people who suffer from psychosclerosis (English: hard headedness). I know I suffer from it, doesn’t everybody? Never mind. —end of article—- A post to rec.running from Rich Barkan: been there, done that I’m picking up this thread in the middle. I read with interest Ozzie’s recommendations about foot position and had some flashbacks to my own nightmare. I

… read more »

Response:

Thank you.  I printed it out to read and digest thouroughly.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you splay footed?   /  This causes the posterior tibialis to be stretched and the arch to start to drop inward so that after years of this the arch is no longer supported by the posterior tibialis.  When this happens the stress is put upon the plantar fascia which is a sheath that inserts into the metatarsals and has its origin on the front of the calcaneus.  The plantar fascia is not made take the stress when the three muscles that maintain the arch do not do their job because of faulty mechanics often caused by the way we run. ___ All through last year I suffered with a pain in the ball of the foot. Podiatrist and surgeon diagnosed it as Capsulitis and metatarselitis respectively. Neither of them studied my gait or stride for either walking or running. Interesting that you brought up splayed feet as mine are very noticeable. It tended to get worse as I started to walk on the side of my foot due to the pain in the ball of the foot. At the end of the year I started getting pain in the tendon on the side of the knee, but below the knee, along the calf and down to above the ankle. So my question is:  Could these two injuries be related and could they stem from the same cause that being the splayed feet? Obviously you can’t diagnose me online, but is this within the realm of reason to take to a 3rd doctor? Thanks Ed, Some thoughts and some rec.running addenda that might show the relationship of the hips to knees to pain in the arch of the foot: Summary: Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet and Your Bunions Splay Feet   / and Bunions may have more to do with what you do unconsciously.  The way you stand may have more to do with the muscles in your upper legs.  And you never even thought about it.  Until now. Thanks to Erik Sten for reminding me about Bunions. The bunion is usually a result of the feet / rather than | |. Keeps pushing out the cartilage out and the cartilage calcifies and voila, le bunion. You might want to take thee to a Rolfer or someone that does postural integration and the problem more often than not is in the hips that create the splay. Leroy Perry had people rotate the heels out first to straight the hips and then bring the feet together so they were aligned | |. Your Piriformis May Effect Your Splay Feet & Bunions: Thank You LeRoy Perry c. 2000, 2002 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D. Piriformis What it does: Piriformis rotates your thigh laterally (turns it outward). Piriformis abducts (ab(Latin) from/away from; duco lead, direct [ad=to or toward]) or turns the thigh away from the body when your leg is flexed. Piriformis is attached onto the front of the sacrum (origin) and inserts into the top of the femur (insertion) – sort of at the top and inward on the greater trochanter. Piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg outwards. You now can see how the hyper-tense (overly tight) gluts which has as its job of laterally (outside) rotating the thigh. That rotation or turning the thigh outward So if the piriformis does most of the work when you turn your leg out along with the gluteus max which laterally rotates the thigh, when these muscles become hypertonic (overly tight) they assist in rotating the entire thigh…and the lower leg and foot also go along for the ride. So more than likely, you’ll often see that when you stand or walk or run through some water and look at your running foot prints they look like: ../ ../ and not | ..| | ..| and when you stand up brushing your teeth in the morning or standing around not thinking about how you’re standing and you look down at your feet, you will see / and not ||. Now to correct this you you’ll bring the front of your feet / together ||. But the problem is that, if you go back to what you’ve just learned from the info about the piriformis and the glut max, you’ll say to yourself: "Hmmmmmmmm, if I turn the front of the foot inward, I won’t have done (never good at English when I speak to myself) anything to the piriformis or the glut max. How can I best effect those muscles which may be a big part of my splay foot stance?" Ah now I see what Ozzie’s talking about. And you’ll say to yourself, "Oh, that’s why Ozzie thanks Leroy Perry to this day for showing him some of his chiropractic intuition and folklore at a workshop which helped Ozzie understand how to effect the foot at the origin of the splay footed problem" When you are standing / and want to get your feet to align | | 1. View your feet. Note if the feet are / evenly or more | or | / or some ankle between _ _ and | |. 2. If your feet are /, turn your heels outward so that if you were looking straight on into a mirror you would not be able to see the inside of your heel like you can when you look at your feet and you’re standing /. 3. Now that you can’t see your heels because you’re standing | |, lift one leg and bring it to a position so that it is directly aligned underneath your hip. Think of the legs as two columns upon which your pelvic is supported. 4. By turning out the heels first, you’re countered the lateral rotational tendency of the piriformis and the glut max. (Now isn’t that sweet.) Two more observations: 1. If you stand in front of a mirror and tighten your butt muscles you’ll see the thighs rotate to the outside. You don’t even know you’re using the piriformis since it’s so deep inside…just like you know know you’re using the psoas to kick a foot ball or kick your dog. 2. In "Preparation" in Tai Chi, you’ll notice that you start / and then to get into your "Beginning" stance you rotate the heels out to get into | |. When that happens your knees when they bend, bend straight ahead. Ahhhhhh. Well maybe you don’t say "Ahhhhhh" to yourself because you don’t know what the hell I getting at. Okay, Okay. If you chronically have a tendency to have hypertonic piriformi and glutei Maximi (Latin – nominative plural) you can now relate to why people call you "tight assed." Now trying to run like that /, and now ever thinking that your legs and feet are suppose to track | |, gives you some sense of the system upon which you stand, walk and run, and realize that those unnecessary torques and twists do have their effects over the seconds, minutes, hours, days, months and years because you’re doing it all the time….unconsciously. You’re practicing to stand in improper form and style and you’re not even thinking about it, let alone doing something about except when you consciously stretch and workout…and when you compare that to all the unconscious exercise you do by the way you walk, stand, sit and move….you realize that 7 or 10 or 20 hours a week of exercise is nothing. Because if you worked out 20 hours a week, slept 56 hours a week, you still have over 90 hours a week that you’re awake. Albeit unconscious, when you are sitting, standing, walking and moving without awareness: It’s not what you do that gets you in trouble. It’s what you do wrong and don’t know that you do wrong or incorrectly…all of those unconscious seconds…that gets you in trouble. Every injury, every overuse syndrome, every ache and pain you have related to physical movement started with a millisecond of unconscious improper movement…that you did but didn’t know that you did, because you never thought about it because you were unconscious thinking or worrying or daydreamsing about something else. It’s not what you know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know that just ain’t so. Sometimes it feels good to be a pain in the cerebral glutei and piriformi of people who suffer from psychosclerosis (English: hard headedness). I know I suffer from it, doesn’t everybody? Never mind. —end of article—- A post to rec.running from Rich Barkan: been there, done that I’m picking up this thread in the middle. I read with interest Ozzie’s recommendations about foot position and had some flashbacks to my own nightmare. I had a piriformis issue back in 91-92; from what I recall, the muscle was essentially atrophying from underuse. The big muscles were doing all the work due to my logging heavy effort daily long runs without any real cross training, i.e., overuse leading to a breakdown in my form (which wasn’t that great to begin with). After a couple of months of no running and physical therapy (including guided stretching, ice, electrical stimulation and voodoo), I was able to begin running again, paying attention to foot placement. The key to prevention of a reoccurance has been a combination of awareness of my footfalls, my trusty leather orthotics, and, most important, consistent stretching (before or after the workout) and varied workouts. Mixing speed, hills, easy days and long runs. In short, proper training and the yoga-position piriformis stretch teamed with stretching of the other muscles in the area that the Dr. Maffetone doctor has indicated The proper stretch was the key, as I wasn’t able to find the right position until the PT showed me. regards Rich Barkan not a doctor, just an aging runner. Good information from Ozzie. Just to throw in one item, and demonstrate that it’s sometimes more complicated, many other muscles also serve as lateral rotators, including the psoas, illiacus, sartorius, some of the adductors, quadratus femoris, internal and

… read more »

Response:

Are you splay footed?   /  This causes the posterior tibialis to be stretched and the arch to start to drop inward so that after years of this the arch is no longer supported by the posterior tibialis.  When this happens the stress is put upon the plantar fascia which is a sheath that inserts into the metatarsals and has its origin on the front of the calcaneus.  The plantar fascia is not made take the stress when the three muscles that maintain the arch do not do their job because of faulty mechanics often caused by the way we run. ___ All through last year I suffered with a pain in the ball of the foot. Podiatrist and surgeon diagnosed it as Capsulitis and metatarselitis respectively. Neither of them studied my gait or stride for either walking or running. Interesting that you brought up splayed feet as mine are very noticeable. It tended to get worse as I started to walk on the side of my foot due to the pain in the ball of the foot. At the end of the year I started getting pain in the tendon on the side of the knee, but below the knee, along the calf and down to above the ankle. So my question is:  Could these two injuries be related and could they stem from the same cause that being the splayed feet? Obviously you can’t diagnose me online, but is this within the realm of reason to take to a 3rd doctor? Thanks

Response:

Question:

OK..solutions please…..intestinal cramps..need a good…well….movement. Gas ….bumbling inside……need a good flush-out I suppose. Sorry – I warned you. Love, Lotus Flower

Response:

OK..solutions please…..intestinal cramps..need a good…well….movement. Gas ….bumbling inside……need a good flush-out I suppose.

In diminishing speed levels, fastest results first: enema glycerin suppositories prunes (and most dried fruit) not LC lots of spinach stool softener pills taken daily any soluble fiber like pectin, etc. salads This post has noting to do with hearts. Can’t fool us. — Bob Pastorio http://www.pastorio.com

Response:

OK..solutions please…..intestinal cramps..need a

good…well….movement. Gas ….bumbling inside……need a good flush-out I suppose. Sorry – I warned you. Love, Lotus Flower

1.Increase water intake if needed 2. Exercise, walking (increases motility) 3. Exercise, abdominal crunches (repetitive pushing moves things along) Or if you prefer, drugs…. Gina

Response:

Lowcarb chocolates sweetened with maltitol *always* did the trick for me …. :0) OK..solutions please…..intestinal cramps..need a good…well….movement. Gas ….bumbling inside……need a good flush-out I suppose. Sorry – I warned you. Love, Lotus Flower

Response:

Lotus Flower, Some wonderful person in this NG gave me some advice several weeks ago to take Vitamin C to get things moving along.  It works wonderfully well.  I routinely take 500 mg in the morning and at night.  Since you are in a bit of an urgent situation, try taking 1,000 to 1,500 mg at once to see if that helps.  Watch out for hidden carbs though.  Many Vit C products have a great deal of sugar added to them.  You might also try some flax meal cereal (nearly 100% fiber and low carb count) to see if that helps.   Zoe (177/151/140 or so ) My favorite LC book:  The Secret to Low Carb Success: How to get the Most Out Of Your Low Carbohydrate Diet (www.lowcarbsuccess.net) – A good book for newbies and slowbies – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK..solutions please…..intestinal cramps..need a good…well….movement. Gas ….bumbling inside……need a good flush-out I suppose. Sorry – I warned you. Love, Lotus Flower

Response:

My mom just suggested bean sprouts. — Lotus Flower F 40 Canada 260/244/140  12 inches lost LC since Jan 15 2002 **Behind every successful woman is herself !" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lotus Flower, Some wonderful person in this NG gave me some advice several weeks ago to take Vitamin C to get things moving along.  It works wonderfully well.  I routinely take 500 mg in the morning and at night.  Since you are in a bit of an urgent situation, try taking 1,000 to 1,500 mg at once to see if that helps. Watch out for hidden carbs though.  Many Vit C products have a great deal of sugar added to them.  You might also try some flax meal cereal (nearly 100% fiber and low carb count) to see if that helps. Zoe (177/151/140 or so ) My favorite LC book:  The Secret to Low Carb Success: How to get the Most Out Of Your Low Carbohydrate Diet (www.lowcarbsuccess.net) – A good book for newbies and slowbies OK..solutions please…..intestinal cramps..need a

good…well….movement. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gas ….bumbling inside……need a good flush-out I suppose. Sorry – I warned you. Love, Lotus Flower

Response:

EH??  WHO is this lindabird person? <ggg

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lowcarb chocolates sweetened with maltitol *always* did the trick for me …. :0)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lowcarb chocolates sweetened with maltitol *always* did the trick for me …. :0) OK..solutions please…..intestinal cramps..need a good…well….movement. Gas ….bumbling inside……need a good flush-out I suppose. Sorry – I warned you. Love, Lotus Flower

Yeah, half a box of Russel Stover sf chocolate pecan delights had me on the toilet for two days.  Or, if you don’t want to invite a stall, just take your psyllium husks.  I can’t believe no one suggested that.  It is the recognized constipation buster around here.                                good LuCk,                                       Ann We have enough youth – how about a

Question:

Cross my heart this happened to this guy who lives in Westchester, NY, and goes to school at Ithaca College.  For two years, he has wanted to ask a certain girl (who is also from Westchester and also goes to Ithaca) out on a date, but has never had the courage.  Finally, one day over the summer, he sees her at home and musters up the courage to ask her out.  She accepts, and they make dinner plans for Saturday night.  Friday night, this guy goes out with all of his buddies, and drinks like Prohibition is coming back.   Saturday, he is in such bad shape that he can’t make it through twenty minutes without either throwing up or using the bathroom.  After several hours of this, he is able to stop throwing up, but he is still running to the toilet every 20 minutes.  He doesn’t want to cancel the date, because he’s afraid he won’t ever talk to her again. So they meet in Westchester, and take the train to New York City   (about a 30-minute ride).  They get to the restaurant, and he excuses himself during the appetizers to use the bathroom.  They enjoy the rest of the appetizers without interruption, but he has to go back again during the entrees. They decide to get dessert.  During dessert, our hero feels another rumbling, but doesn’t want to look like a complete bathroom freak, so he holds it. After a few minutes, the rumbling subsides, but he still has a bit of gas stored up.  He decides to let this little bit of gas fly right there at the table (discreetly, of course).   Unfortunately, this little bit of gas came with another little surprise.  "Oh crap," he thinks (and feels). Instead of running to the bathroom right away, our hero immediately leans on the arms of his chair to keep from sitting on this surprise. He maintains this yoga position for the rest of dessert, trying to figure out what to do before his tan pants (a) start to smell, or (b) start to show stains on the outside. He quickly pays for dinner and they leave the restaurant.  Oh, by the way, he is walking like a cowboy. On the way to the train station, they pass the Gap. "Do you mind if I run in and buy a sweater that I was looking at last week?" he asks.  "No problem, I’d like to look around too," she replies.  They go into the Gap.  Fortunately, at the Gap, men’s fashions are on the right, women’s fashions are on the left.  They split up.  Our hero grabs the first sweater within reach, and hurries back to the khakis. After selecting a pair that most closely resembles his current outfit, he brings both items to the register.  His eyes are on his date (still on the other side of the store) to make sure that she doesn’t see him buying the pants.  He doesn’t even want the sweater, so he says through clenched teeth (just in case his date can read lips from 40 feet away) "Just the pants." "What?" asks the Gap girl. "Just the pants!"  (Eyes still trained on his date.) Gap girl:  "Oh, OK." He pays for the pants and walks over to his date, then they leave the store. They board the train just before it leaves the station and find two seats in the middle of the car. Without sitting down, our hero excuses himself and walks to the bathroom in the back of the car. He gets to the bathroom as the train departs, and quickly rips off his pants and boxer shorts. He rolls them into a ball and throws them out the window.  After cleaning himself off, he opens the Gap bag and pulls out… …just the sweater…

Response:

LOL!!!! Well, at least she gets to get a look at something.  Now if she’s from the South and polite she’ll provide him with compliments and a bit of shielding….. Otherwise, oh those northern hussy’s….. makes me quake in my boots. LOL LOL LOL David

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kig…@ucs.orst.edu wrote:

In article <3A7CC99C.E06B4…@earthlink.net, Marcia Rovins  <mrov…@earthlink.net wrote: OK, this is starting to scare me.  I seem to calm down a bit to normal heavy bleeding, and then the clots get bigger than they ever were and the bleeding gets heavier than it ever was.  Does this this ever get dangerous?  I don’t have a gyn in this state yet, and I don’t want to call a stranger and say I have an emergency, unless it truly is an emergency.  How many days can this last before I need to panic????? Don’t panic. It can last a very long time indeed, and still not be dangerous. My first Great Flood went on for *weeks, sometimes slowing down to mere spotting before starting up again with the same godawful vigor. I basically bled for all of May and a good deal of June that year, with something like a week off. Yes, it scared the hell out of me, but when I called my doctor (a gp, not an ob-gyn) she was very reassuring and told me that, absent unusual pain, there was no reason to come in until after the bleed finally let up. When I did, all exams were normal and we had a long talk about hormone therapy (which I declined). For your own peace of mind, and to make sure that what’s going on is only "normal" abnormal bleeding. I’d suggest making a doctor’s appointment as soon as possible, but not on an emergency-room basis. Whether to see an ob-gyn or a general practitioner is up to you. Chances are that if you went to an emergency room, they would either give you a prescription for stronger NSAIDs or talk about giving you Provera (progesterone) as an emergency treatment. It works for some people but not for others, and can cause some significant side effects. It may help to know that this sort of flooding/clotting is not a usual symptom of any of the Dread Diseases you are probably worrying about right now. Best wishes, –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Thanks for the response.  It’s interesting for me to hear that you declined hormone therapy.  I have absolute no other symptoms of menopause besides this little episode, and I’m experience no pain or cramps even now, so I think I’d like to stay away from hormones, as well.  I wish I had a doctor to go to that knew me, but since I moved out of state, I have to start all over again.  That is making me a little anxious, but I’m sure I’ll get through it. When this happened to me last June, someone suggested I take Evening Primrose Oil.  I stopped shortly after trying it, but I think I was just ready to stop, anyway.  I’ve taken it this time with absolutely no result.  The same thing may be happening with the sudafed, but at this point I’m ready to try anything!!! Marcia

Response:

In article <95kkup$7h…@news.NERO.NET

, kig…@ucs.orst.edu wrote: In article <8rbf6.90465$8V6.12027…@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com, just me <thedewi…@earthlink.net wrote: The thing about Alleve and Sudafed that works is that they are NSAIDS.  I can’t really explain what that means, but that includes being anti-inflammatory. Alleve is. Sudafed is an antihistamine.

Well, no.  It’s a decongestant. Priscilla — "If Laura Bush really wanted a gown that reflected the spirit of this inauguration, she should have shoplifted it."

Response:

"Gail Reed" <gailr…@math.uic.edu

wrote in message

news:Pine.BSF.4.10.10102041454340.61935-100000@matrix.math.uic.edu…

Actually, while Alleve is an NSAID, sudafed isn’t – it’s a decongestant. That’s why it puzzles me that it works so well.  I suppose it just dries you up all over.

You’re right about the NSAID v. decongestant thing there.  I must have been lacking the daily caffeine intake level when I made my comment lumping the two into one category!  Thanks for catching that! -Aula

Response:

In article <95kn11$9d…@samba.rahul.net

,

Karen Kay  <ka…@wordwrite.com> wrote: >kig…@ucs.orst.edu wrote: >> In article <8rbf6.90465$8V6.12027…@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com

,

>> just me <thedewi…@earthlink.net> wrote: >>>The thing about Alleve and Sudafed that works is that they are NSAIDS.  I >>>can’t really explain what that means, but that includes being >>>anti-inflammatory. >> Alleve is. Sudafed is an antihistamine. >Decongestant.

Yup, got that after posting. Duh. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

In article <3A7DDB3B.9BFDC…@earthlink.net

,

Marcia Rovins  <mrov…@earthlink.net

wrote: kig…@ucs.orst.edu wrote: Yes, it scared the hell out of me, but when I called my doctor (a gp, not an ob-gyn) she was very reassuring and told me that, absent unusual pain, there was no reason to come in until after the bleed finally let up. When I did, all exams were normal and we had a long talk about hormone therapy (which I declined).

(snip)

Thanks for the response.  It’s interesting for me to hear that you declined hormone therapy.  I have absolute no other symptoms of menopause besides this little episode, and I’m experience no pain or cramps even now, so I think I’d like to stay away from hormones, as well.

I’ve experienced several of the other common signs of approaching menopause – insomnia, night sweats, occasional hot flashes, etc. – but frankly, none of it has been bothersome enough, for long enough, to interest me in a daily drug regimen of any kind, much less one that has so many potential risks. I’m not really much of a stoic, but I seem to be getting alone fine without the drugs, so why take them?

 I wish I had a doctor to go to that knew me, but since I moved out of state, I have to start all over again.  That is making me a little anxious, but I’m sure I’ll get through it.

My doctor was new to me when I first reported in after that initial flood. She’s also about 15 years younger than me, and was pregnant with her first child when we first me, so I’m pretty sure menopause wasn’t her central concern. But she’s bright, a good listener, and willing to learn. Just be really clear about both your questions and your desires, and you should be fine.

When this happened to me last June, someone suggested I take Evening Primrose Oil.  I stopped shortly after trying it, but I think I was just ready to stop, anyway.  I’ve taken it this time with absolutely no result.  The same thing may be happening with the sudafed, but at this point I’m ready to try anything!!!

I completely understand the feeling. But it *will* stop, and you’ll actually find it much easier to make a good, well-thought-out decision about your treatment options when you’re not actually sitting there feeling like your insides are leaking out. Hang in there. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

In article <3A7DDB3B.9BFDC…@earthlink.net

,

Marcia Rovins  <mrov…@earthlink.net

wrote: When this happened to me last June, someone suggested I take Evening Primrose Oil.  I stopped shortly after trying it, but I think I was just ready to stop, anyway.  I’ve taken it this time with absolutely no result.  The same thing may be happening with the sudafed, but at this point I’m ready to try anything!!!

I recently started taking Evening Primrose Oil for the second half of my cycle. My next 3 periods lasted 7 days instead of 10. — Stef              **  rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **      **  s…@cat-and-dragon.com <*

http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **

         - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - As long as you’ve lit one candle, you’re allowed to curse the darkness.

Response:

In article <3A7DDB3B.9BFDC…@earthlink.net

,

  Marcia Rovins <mrov…@earthlink.net

wrote: When this happened to me last June, someone suggested I take Evening Primrose Oil.  I stopped shortly after trying it, but I think I was just ready to stop, anyway.

Since Evening Primrose Oil has estrogenic properties I don’t see how this would stop a heavy bleed. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

homemak…@my-deja.com writes:

In article <3A7DDB3B.9BFDC…@earthlink.net,  Marcia Rovins <mrov…@earthlink.net wrote: When this happened to me last June, someone suggested I take Evening Primrose Oil.  I stopped shortly after trying it, but I think I was just ready to stop, anyway. Since Evening Primrose Oil has estrogenic properties I don’t see how this would stop a heavy bleed.

It’s also an anti-inflammatory. — Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet           (p…@demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page    and interview the witnesses."  John M. Ford, "Shared World"

Response:

In article <8rbf6.90465$8V6.12027…@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com

,

just me <thedewi…@earthlink.net

wrote: The thing about Alleve and Sudafed that works is that they are NSAIDS.  I can’t really explain what that means, but that includes being anti-inflammatory.

Alleve is. Sudafed is an antihistamine. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kig…@ucs.orst.edu wrote:

In article <3A7DDB3B.9BFDC…@earthlink.net, Marcia Rovins  <mrov…@earthlink.net wrote: kig…@ucs.orst.edu wrote: Yes, it scared the hell out of me, but when I called my doctor (a gp, not an ob-gyn) she was very reassuring and told me that, absent unusual pain, there was no reason to come in until after the bleed finally let up. When I did, all exams were normal and we had a long talk about hormone therapy (which I declined). (snip) Thanks for the response.  It’s interesting for me to hear that you declined hormone therapy.  I have absolute no other symptoms of menopause besides this little episode, and I’m experience no pain or cramps even now, so I think I’d like to stay away from hormones, as well. I’ve experienced several of the other common signs of approaching menopause – insomnia, night sweats, occasional hot flashes, etc. – but frankly, none of it has been bothersome enough, for long enough, to interest me in a daily drug regimen of any kind, much less one that has so many potential risks. I’m not really much of a stoic, but I seem to be getting alone fine without the drugs, so why take them?  I wish I had a doctor to go to that knew me, but since I moved out of state, I have to start all over again.  That is making me a little anxious, but I’m sure I’ll get through it. My doctor was new to me when I first reported in after that initial flood. She’s also about 15 years younger than me, and was pregnant with her first child when we first me, so I’m pretty sure menopause wasn’t her central concern. But she’s bright, a good listener, and willing to learn. Just be really clear about both your questions and your desires, and you should be fine. When this happened to me last June, someone suggested I take Evening Primrose Oil.  I stopped shortly after trying it, but I think I was just ready to stop, anyway.  I’ve taken it this time with absolutely no result.  The same thing may be happening with the sudafed, but at this point I’m ready to try anything!!! I completely understand the feeling. But it *will* stop, and you’ll actually find it much easier to make a good, well-thought-out decision about your treatment options when you’re not actually sitting there feeling like your insides are leaking out. Hang in there. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Thanks, yet again, Pat… Marcia

Response:

OK, this is starting to scare me.  I seem to calm down a bit to normal heavy bleeding, and then the clots get bigger than they ever were and the bleeding gets heavier than it ever was.  Does this this ever get dangerous?  I don’t have a gyn in this state yet, and I don’t want to call a stranger and say I have an emergency, unless it truly is an emergency.  How many days can this last before I need to panic????? By the way, I found some OB Ultra Tampons that do have an applicator.  I just tried one, and it was still really hard to get in, since the applicator is very flimsy cardboard.  I’m just hoping it really does work for a while. Marcia

Response:

On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Marcia Rovins wrote:

This may just be a coincidence since this would be my fifth straight day of heavy bleeding, but I did take another sudafed at 6 am after a thankfully light night.  So far, I’m still very light.  I guess I’ll keep taking them today, just in case.  So does this mean it’s not all up there just waiting to come out when I stop, or will the time pass and everything go away now…assuming it hasn’t already??? Thanks, Marcia

I wish I could tell you.  I just don’t know.  It seems to me (after 20 years of this kind of bleeding) that one doesn’t just empty the uterus during the period, but one actually bleeds at the same time.  I think that’s what the sudafed stops, so it’s not that the uterus is just waiting for the end of the sudafed to start bleeding again.  (Does that make sense?) Anyway, let us know how it works for you, okay?         chakolate

Response:

In article <3A7CC99C.E06B4…@earthlink.net

,

Marcia Rovins  <mrov…@earthlink.net

wrote: OK, this is starting to scare me.  I seem to calm down a bit to normal heavy bleeding, and then the clots get bigger than they ever were and the bleeding gets heavier than it ever was.  Does this this ever get dangerous?  I don’t have a gyn in this state yet, and I don’t want to call a stranger and say I have an emergency, unless it truly is an emergency.  How many days can this last before I need to panic?????

Don’t panic. It can last a very long time indeed, and still not be dangerous. My first Great Flood went on for *weeks, sometimes slowing down to mere spotting before starting up again with the same godawful vigor. I basically bled for all of May and a good deal of June that year, with something like a week off. Yes, it scared the hell out of me, but when I called my doctor (a gp, not an ob-gyn) she was very reassuring and told me that, absent unusual pain, there was no reason to come in until after the bleed finally let up. When I did, all exams were normal and we had a long talk about hormone therapy (which I declined). For your own peace of mind, and to make sure that what’s going on is only "normal" abnormal bleeding. I’d suggest making a doctor’s appointment as soon as possible, but not on an emergency-room basis. Whether to see an ob-gyn or a general practitioner is up to you. Chances are that if you went to an emergency room, they would either give you a prescription for stronger NSAIDs or talk about giving you Provera (progesterone) as an emergency treatment. It works for some people but not for others, and can cause some significant side effects. It may help to know that this sort of flooding/clotting is not a usual symptom of any of the Dread Diseases you are probably worrying about right now. Best wishes, –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, just me wrote:

"Marcia Rovins" <mrov…@earthlink.net wrote in message news:3A7D02FD.83CD327E@earthlink.net… Thanks for the reassurance.  That’s interesting about the Sudafed.  I always take one before I go to bed, anyway.  The last couple of nights, there hasn’t been too much blood when I woke up and changed at 3 am and 6 am, however, even though I went back to sleep after taking 2 advils, by 10 am I was flooding again.  I wonder if the sudafed had something to do with that.  Anyway, I’m relieved to hear this isn’t life threatening…at the moment, anyway! The thing about Alleve and Sudafed that works is that they are NSAIDS.  I can’t really explain what that means, but that includes being anti-inflammatory.  My doc told me to take Alleve to reduce the floods and, especially, the clotting.  It works great, while the dose is in my system. So, I take it for the first three [or so] days and have very reduced volume and minimal to no clotting.  HTH. -Aula

Actually, while Alleve is an NSAID, sudafed isn’t – it’s a decongestant. That’s why it puzzles me that it works so well.  I suppose it just dries you up all over.           chakolate Conscience is what hurts when the rest of you feels soooo good.  

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -just me wrote:

"Marcia Rovins" <mrov…@earthlink.net wrote in message news:3A7D02FD.83CD327E@earthlink.net… Thanks for the reassurance.  That’s interesting about the Sudafed.  I always take one before I go to bed, anyway.  The last couple of nights, there hasn’t been too much blood when I woke up and changed at 3 am and 6 am, however, even though I went back to sleep after taking 2 advils, by 10 am I was flooding again.  I wonder if the sudafed had something to do with that.  Anyway, I’m relieved to hear this isn’t life threatening…at the moment, anyway! The thing about Alleve and Sudafed that works is that they are NSAIDS.  I can’t really explain what that means, but that includes being anti-inflammatory.  My doc told me to take Alleve to reduce the floods and, especially, the clotting.  It works great, while the dose is in my system. So, I take it for the first three [or so] days and have very reduced volume and minimal to no clotting.  HTH. -Aula

This may just be a coincidence since this would be my fifth straight day of heavy bleeding, but I did take another sudafed at 6 am after a thankfully light night.  So far, I’m still very light.  I guess I’ll keep taking them today, just in case.  So does this mean it’s not all up there just waiting to come out when I stop, or will the time pass and everything go away now…assuming it hasn’t already??? Thanks, Marcia

Response:

Karen Kay <ka…@wordwrite.com

wrote in message

news:95jse0$4jn$1@samba.rahul.net…

Cathy Friedmann <c…@borg.com wrote: I thought it is antihistamines which dry one up, whereas Sudafed, being

a

decongestant, helps to unblock one’s nose? The point I was trying to make is that if you swallow it, the effect is systemic. Sudafed does NOT just unblock your nose, it affects your whole body, whether you can see it or not.

I knew you meant it is systemic, but since my nose runs after taking it, Vs. drying up a post-nasal drip w/an antihistamine – well, that was my point.  I don’t see/experience a decongestant as being a drying agent, so I wouldn’t associate it w/ cutting down on menstrual flow. Cathy — "Decades gliding by like Indians, time is cheap."   Paul Simon ("Ren

Question:

My opinion of Ari has come full circle. At first I thought she was a troll and a time waster and then felt I was responding harshly to her when others tried to be tolerant and supportive. This is because i have bi-polar illness and can sympathize with how horrible it is when it is at its worst. My original instincts were correct. Ari has no sincere desire to change anything and is pulling our collective legs and wasting band width on a support group.  I’ve filtered her several times, but curiosity got the best of me.  I always wonder what she’ll come up with next but haven’t seen anything new in her posts. I think I’ll put her back in cold storage for a while. I call her True Locust. — Diva Remember growing older is mandatory, growing up  is optional

Response:

:My opinion of Ari has come full circle. At first I thought she was a :troll and a time waster and then felt I was responding harshly to her :when others tried to be tolerant and supportive. This is because i have :bi-polar illness and can sympathize with how horrible it is when it is :at its worst. My original instincts were correct. Ari has no sincere :desire to change anything and is pulling our collective legs and wasting :band width on a support group.  I’ve filtered her several times, but :curiosity got the best of me.  I always wonder what she’ll come up with :next but haven’t seen anything new in her posts. I think I’ll put her :back in cold storage for a while. I call her True Locust. I can’t say I agree with you.  I think she does want to change things.  This group is about helping each other, and losing weight is hard, not only physically, but emotionally. What was the last straw for you?  Curious.. — Salom