Question:

Have you thought of discussing in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin they really get into it…..you’ll get good comments/interaction/satsang there….not like this NG or alt.philosophy etc….

Hi Mike: Is it a long joke or a try to persuade only your good selve? One really has a serious difficulty to see what you are trying to do? I do not care what you belive. All I care what you know! But regret to inform you that you do not know this matter. Because conditioned mind can not reach anywhere.All your claims has nothing to do with the experience. Soul, spirit, GOD( the way you present)all are the result of a conditioned mind. GOD for me is everything, for you separate from the existance.GOD is a creator for you, for me GOD is the self of  the existance. YOURS in accord with the holy scriptures, they only help to condition minds! Mine is the result of my own experience.That is yours only reflect your beliefs, not the experiences. So all your beliefs are good for you but please do not present them as if they have a substantial value. Experiences are unique,beliefs like soul, God, spirit are same they have no uniqueness.They first conditionally inserted into the minds of humans.Once they take their place in the mind,then you will never kick them out, you have to defend them as you do here.But they always give trouble until if the person can get away from these conditioned concepts. Yes I am experienced, but experiences do not fit, that means experiences differ. Wish you to see things as they are,not the way as you like to see them. PUMA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   This post is on Experience and the nature of knowledge and what is real. It also covers the mind and God and the soul and who we are. It also covers duality and the metaphysics of thinking and what concentration are and the purpose of yogic techniques. Also touches on sleep/dream/consciousness/ESP and mysticism. It does not pay to attempt to do these one at a time because each requires the same set of issues addressed but they are only touched on the thrust is on Experience and the nature of knowledge and what is real and how we know what is real.   From all the bad feelings and arguments I was going to show the difficulty of discussions held in this NG starting   with Explanation Categories. However the metaphysics of understanding Explanation Categories requires understanding knowledge and duality/what is real and how do we know what is real first. So I only got as far as Experiences. I intend to follow with Explanation Categories and Science a little later on. Where does one draw the line in defense of their beliefs in arguing them? Explanation Categories leads to this and what I call mechanics of conversation but Professor Zarefsky calls ‘Argumentation the Study of Effective Reasoning. A set of protocols for expectations by parties debating an issue and the very peculiar history of how the West has proceeded pursing knowledge. It really is a Wild Wild West or Jungle/uncivilized/anybody’s guess how to proceed in conversation for very well know/documented historical reasons. From a Yoga perspective as related to this NG, first why do we do anything at all needs to be addressed and that requires ‘how do we know anything’ to be addressed first and this is the purpose of this post. From why do we do anything then can proceed why do we post in a NG? What expectations are had  by participants in dialog in a NG? The course by Zarefsky offers a much needed protocol participants in discussionsneed to realize. He unintentionally fills a blatant need after science and philosophy in the west screwed things up to a huge extent.   Yoga comes from the verbal root yuj meaning to yoke or harness. It is a harnessing of the soul with God or Jiva with Paratma. It means other things to other people and it is not the intention here to re-dispute atheist meanings or distinctions between Vedanta and classical Patanjali Yoga.  It is necessary that you at least humor the idea of both God and soul/the premises/hypothesis long enough to get to the point – what is real and how do we know this? (ontology and epistemology).If you disagree with this definition fine – bye/I feel no compulsion to convince you. God is Truth and Truth is where you find it. There is no particular reason to have faith in God. Also these subjects have a long and interesting history. I have not specifically referenced them but could have easily done so off the top of my head. (Aristotle/Plato/Aquinas/Newton/Hume/Popper and the gang)   So how might this yoking be done? Everyone has their own means of going about this and it is not the intention of this post to classify systems of lineages in yoga (Iyengar vs Kriya etc) into philosophical categories and discuss the merits of each.   This leads inexorably to the questions –   What is God?   What is a soul?   Which further leads to what philosophy and metaphysics is about to begin with – What is real and how do you know that?/ontology and epistemology. To attack this problem from the broadest possible perspective we first have to identify who we are. There are many answers also to the question of who we are. Instead of referring to scriptures and their interpretations (a common Biblical practice), I will attack this a very practical standpoint and refer to scriptures that point in that direction if and when appropriate without getting too long.   How do we know who we are and what God is/if God exists we must address the problem of how do we know anything at all? We need to have a common basis for communication/fundamental underlying principles that can be agreed upon before disagreement takes place.   Everything we know is the result of experience. Experience is of 3 varieties total.   Experiences that come to us from the senses. This is by far the largest category.   Experiences in the form of thinking.   Experiences that are transcendental. God is a transcendental experience. A category denied by atheists and science.   Experiences that come to us from the senses no one would deny. Interpretation of what those experiences are is quite another matter. As a result of the sum total of all our past experiences – something unique to all of us, we form opinions of experiences. No 2 minds form a conception of an experience in the same way. Every mind forms a different conception of experience of the same sensory input. It is not even a possibility that 2 minds could experience the same sensory input in identical manner exactly the same/form the exact same conception of this sensory input. A chair reminds you of your grandmas chair you saw as a child. You associate memories of that chair seen long ago with this chair. Unique memories. Unique associations. Language is the practical means of conveying things we experience to others. When we see a chair and say this it is not likely anyone will disagree that the object they see is not a chair. We can agree on particulars of experiences but without exception there will be a point reached where we will disagree on attributes/meanings associated with the chair – or any other phenomena we experience whatsoever. It is this agreement of particulars of a phenomena by the use of words as language that enable successful communication exchange about chairs. We have a box in our minds in which we stuff phenomena into to categorize the phenomena (chair) – and these labels on the boxes are words. Words are generalizations of experiences. They are abstract ideas. We compare the chair word/category with other abstract ideas that distinguish this chair from other words/categories/boxes of abstract ideas in the mind with others in communication or thinking about it ourselves as  a thinking experience.   Nearly all things we know are known in this way. The association of words to phenomena from the senses is agreement between the users of the word on its reality. It is extremely important that you back step here and re-read that last sentence until you understand it. I am telling you that there is not a single thing that you know at ALL –  that is not by agreement. More accurately – there is nothing your mind can know at all that is not by agreement. These agreements/words/categories form the basis of your entire reality as mind. Agreements are particulars of phenomena we experience. ‘House’ is said,   and a particular idea/conception of a house arises in the mind. No one has the same idea but generally speaking most would agree houses have doors and windows/attributes/characteristics that distinguish them from other phenomena like frogs. These distinctions between things are the ONLY means by which your mind can EVER KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL. Houses owe their existence to being distinct things – that is the purpose of the forming of the word to begin with. This reality based on only being able to know something as distinguished from other things is called Duality.   Duality is extraordinarily important to understand. This single understanding will take you further than any other idea known to mankind. (the mind) Up exists by virtue of down. Left exists because of something less left – right. Blue – as distinguished from red. Tree from book. YOU FROM ME. There is absolutely no exception to anything or condition in the universe existing apart as a separate thing or condition. As soon as you have a ‘this’ – by

… read more »

Response:

From my Samurai Days, The "Attitude No-Attitude" Teaching "Attitude No-Attitude" means that there is no need for what are known as long sword attitudes.   Even so, attitudes exist as the five ways of holding the long sword.  However you hold the sword it must be in such a way that it is easy to cut the enemy well, in accordance with the situation, the place, and your relation to the enemy.  From the Upper attitude as your spirit lessens you can adopt the Middle attitude, and from the Middle attitude you can raise the sword a little in your techniques and adopt the Upper attitude.  From the Lower attitude you can raise the sword a little and adopt the Middle attitudes as the occasion demands.  According to the situation, if you turn your sword from either the Left Side or Right Side attitude towards the centre, the Middle or the Lower attitude results.   The principle of this is called "Existing Attitude-Nonexisting Attitude".   The primary thing when you take a sword in your hands is your intention to cut the enemy, whatever the means.  Whenever you parry, hit, spring, strike or touch the enemy’s cutting sword, you must cut the enemy in the same movement.  It is essential to attain this.  If you think only of hitting, springing, striking or touching the enemy, you will not be able to actually cut him.  More than anything, you must be thinking of carrying your movement through to cutting him.  You must thoroughly reasearch this.   Attitude in strategy on a larger scale is called "Battle Array".  Such attitudes are all for winning battles.  Fixed formation is bad.  Study this well. GO RIN NO SHO (The Book Of Five Rings) – From The Water Book by Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645) Translated by Victor Harris Wade

Response:

Kartik, I believe Mike wanted to set things straight here.  He wanted to help people understand the path of yoga, the truth of reality and who we are. Swami   Have you thought of discussing in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin they really get into it…..you’ll get good comments/interaction/satsang there….not like this NG or alt.philosophy etc….     This post is on Experience and the nature of knowledge and what is real. It also covers the mind and God and the soul and who we are. It also covers duality and the metaphysics of thinking and what concentration are and the purpose of yogic techniques. Also touches on sleep/dream/consciousness/ESP and mysticism. It does not pay to attempt to do these one at a time because each requires the same set of issues addressed but they are only touched on the thrust is on Experience and the nature of knowledge and what is real and how we know what is real.     From all the bad feelings and arguments I was going to show the difficulty of discussions held in this NG starting     with Explanation Categories. However the metaphysics of understanding Explanation Categories requires understanding knowledge and duality/what is real and how do we know what is real first. So I only got as far as Experiences. I intend to follow with Explanation Categories and Science a little later on. Where does one draw the line in defense of their beliefs in arguing them? Explanation Categories leads to this and what I call mechanics of conversation but Professor Zarefsky calls ‘Argumentation the Study of Effective Reasoning. A set of protocols for expectations by parties debating an issue and the very peculiar history of how the West has proceeded pursing knowledge. It really is a Wild Wild West or Jungle/uncivilized/anybody’s guess how to proceed in conversation for very well know/documented historical reasons. From a Yoga perspective as related to this NG, first why do we do anything at all needs to be addressed and that requires ‘how do we know anything’ to be addressed first and this is the purpose of this post. From why do we do anything then can proceed why do we post in a NG? What expectations are had  by participants in dialog in a NG? The course by Zarefsky offers a much needed protocol participants in discussionsneed to realize. He unintentionally fills a blatant need after science and philosophy in the west screwed things up to a huge extent.     Yoga comes from the verbal root yuj meaning to yoke or harness. It is a harnessing of the soul with God or Jiva with Paratma. It means other things to other people and it is not the intention here to re-dispute atheist meanings or distinctions between Vedanta and classical Patanjali Yoga.  It is necessary that you at least humor the idea of both God and soul/the premises/hypothesis long enough to get to the point – what is real and how do we know this? (ontology and epistemology).If you disagree with this definition fine – bye/I feel no compulsion to convince you. God is Truth and Truth is where you find it. There is no particular reason to have faith in God. Also these subjects have a long and interesting history. I have not specifically referenced them but could have easily done so off the top of my head. (Aristotle/Plato/Aquinas/Newton/Hume/Popper and the gang)     So how might this yoking be done? Everyone has their own means of going about this and it is not the intention of this post to classify systems of lineages in yoga (Iyengar vs Kriya etc) into philosophical categories and discuss the merits of each.     This leads inexorably to the questions –     What is God?     What is a soul?     Which further leads to what philosophy and metaphysics is about to begin with – What is real and how do you know that?/ontology and epistemology. To attack this problem from the broadest possible perspective we first have to identify who we are. There are many answers also to the question of who we are. Instead of referring to scriptures and their interpretations (a common Biblical practice), I will attack this a very practical standpoint and refer to scriptures that point in that direction if and when appropriate without getting too long.     How do we know who we are and what God is/if God exists we must address the problem of how do we know anything at all? We need to have a common basis for communication/fundamental underlying principles that can be agreed upon before disagreement takes place.     Everything we know is the result of experience. Experience is of 3 varieties total.     Experiences that come to us from the senses. This is by far the largest category.     Experiences in the form of thinking.     Experiences that are transcendental. God is a transcendental experience. A category denied by atheists and science.     Experiences that come to us from the senses no one would deny. Interpretation of what those experiences are is quite another matter. As a result of the sum total of all our past experiences – something unique to all of us, we form opinions of experiences. No 2 minds form a conception of an experience in the same way. Every mind forms a different conception of experience of the same sensory input. It is not even a possibility that 2 minds could experience the same sensory input in identical manner exactly the same/form the exact same conception of this sensory input. A chair reminds you of your grandmas chair you saw as a child. You associate memories of that chair seen long ago with this chair. Unique memories. Unique associations. Language is the practical means of conveying things we experience to others. When we see a chair and say this it is not likely anyone will disagree that the object they see is not a chair. We can agree on particulars of experiences but without exception there will be a point reached where we will disagree on attributes/meanings associated with the chair – or any other phenomena we experience whatsoever. It is this agreement of particulars of a phenomena by the use of words as language that enable successful communication exchange about chairs. We have a box in our minds in which we stuff phenomena into to categorize the phenomena (chair) – and these labels on the boxes are words. Words are generalizations of experiences. They are abstract ideas. We compare the chair word/category with other abstract ideas that distinguish this chair from other words/categories/boxes of abstract ideas in the mind with others in communication or thinking about it ourselves as  a thinking experience.     Nearly all things we know are known in this way. The association of words to phenomena from the senses is agreement between the users of the word on its reality. It is extremely important that you back step here and re-read that last sentence until you understand it. I am telling you that there is not a single thing that you know at ALL –  that is not by agreement. More accurately – there is nothing your mind can know at all that is not by agreement. These agreements/words/categories form the basis of your entire reality as mind. Agreements are particulars of phenomena we experience. ‘House’ is said,     and a particular idea/conception of a house arises in the mind. No one has the same idea but generally speaking most would agree houses have doors and windows/attributes/characteristics that distinguish them from other phenomena like frogs. These distinctions between things are the ONLY means by which your mind can EVER KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL. Houses owe their existence to being distinct things – that is the purpose of the forming of the word to begin with. This reality based on only being able to know something as distinguished from other things is called Duality.     Duality is extraordinarily important to understand. This single understanding will take you further than any other idea known to mankind. (the mind) Up exists by virtue of down. Left exists because of something less left – right. Blue – as distinguished from red. Tree from book. YOU FROM ME. There is absolutely no exception to anything or condition in the universe existing apart as a separate thing or condition. As soon as you have a ‘this’ – by default ‘that’ is born. YOU have no independent existence either.     Who are you? ‘Joe Jungle.’ Then I will tell you – no that is your name. I asked you who you are. (this is Richard Hittleman for all you Hittleman fans) You say – ‘I am Joe Jungle. I live at X. I work at Y. I was born in 1963 in New York. I drive a Honda. My favorite color is blue.’ Then I say no no – you misunderstood me. I don’t want to know things about you, I want to know who you are. After thinking about it for a moment, you say – ‘Well, I may not be able to tell you who I am, but I certainly know who I am.’ In which case I press you further – who is the you that knows who you are? Are there 2 you’s? The original you and the you that knows who you are? In that case there must be 3 you’s. The original you, the you that knows who you are, and the you that knows the you who knows who you are. In that case there must be 4 you’s… This is called Infinite Regress argument.     You have no existence independent of all other things as mind and body than any other thing or condition in the universe. You owe your existence to all other things just as all other things owe their existence to all other things. You could not exist if you did not have something with which to compare you to. That is the reason for your existence- to distinguish you from all other things. You exist in the same way all other things exist – in relation to all other things. As distinguished from all other things.     All things you know or ever will

… read more »

Response:

Have you thought of discussing in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin they really get into it…..you’ll get good comments/interaction/satsang there….not like this NG or alt.philosophy etc….   This post is on Experience and the nature of knowledge and what is real. It also covers the mind and God and the soul and who we are. It also covers duality and the metaphysics of thinking and what concentration are and the purpose of yogic techniques. Also touches on sleep/dream/consciousness/ESP and mysticism. It does not pay to attempt to do these one at a time because each requires the same set of issues addressed but they are only touched on the thrust is on Experience and the nature of knowledge and what is real and how we know what is real.   From all the bad feelings and arguments I was going to show the difficulty of discussions held in this NG starting   with Explanation Categories. However the metaphysics of understanding Explanation Categories requires understanding knowledge and duality/what is real and how do we know what is real first. So I only got as far as Experiences. I intend to follow with Explanation Categories and Science a little later on. Where does one draw the line in defense of their beliefs in arguing them? Explanation Categories leads to this and what I call mechanics of conversation but Professor Zarefsky calls ‘Argumentation the Study of Effective Reasoning. A set of protocols for expectations by parties debating an issue and the very peculiar history of how the West has proceeded pursing knowledge. It really is a Wild Wild West or Jungle/uncivilized/anybody’s guess how to proceed in conversation for very well know/documented historical reasons. From a Yoga perspective as related to this NG, first why do we do anything at all needs to be addressed and that requires ‘how do we know anything’ to be addressed first and this is the purpose of this post. From why do we do anything then can proceed why do we post in a NG? What expectations are had  by participants in dialog in a NG? The course by Zarefsky offers a much needed protocol participants in discussionsneed to realize. He unintentionally fills a blatant need after science and philosophy in the west screwed things up to a huge extent.   Yoga comes from the verbal root yuj meaning to yoke or harness. It is a harnessing of the soul with God or Jiva with Paratma. It means other things to other people and it is not the intention here to re-dispute atheist meanings or distinctions between Vedanta and classical Patanjali Yoga.  It is necessary that you at least humor the idea of both God and soul/the premises/hypothesis long enough to get to the point – what is real and how do we know this? (ontology and epistemology).If you disagree with this definition fine – bye/I feel no compulsion to convince you. God is Truth and Truth is where you find it. There is no particular reason to have faith in God. Also these subjects have a long and interesting history. I have not specifically referenced them but could have easily done so off the top of my head. (Aristotle/Plato/Aquinas/Newton/Hume/Popper and the gang)   So how might this yoking be done? Everyone has their own means of going about this and it is not the intention of this post to classify systems of lineages in yoga (Iyengar vs Kriya etc) into philosophical categories and discuss the merits of each.   This leads inexorably to the questions –   What is God?   What is a soul?   Which further leads to what philosophy and metaphysics is about to begin with – What is real and how do you know that?/ontology and epistemology. To attack this problem from the broadest possible perspective we first have to identify who we are. There are many answers also to the question of who we are. Instead of referring to scriptures and their interpretations (a common Biblical practice), I will attack this a very practical standpoint and refer to scriptures that point in that direction if and when appropriate without getting too long.   How do we know who we are and what God is/if God exists we must address the problem of how do we know anything at all? We need to have a common basis for communication/fundamental underlying principles that can be agreed upon before disagreement takes place.   Everything we know is the result of experience. Experience is of 3 varieties total.   Experiences that come to us from the senses. This is by far the largest category.   Experiences in the form of thinking.   Experiences that are transcendental. God is a transcendental experience. A category denied by atheists and science.   Experiences that come to us from the senses no one would deny. Interpretation of what those experiences are is quite another matter. As a result of the sum total of all our past experiences – something unique to all of us, we form opinions of experiences. No 2 minds form a conception of an experience in the same way. Every mind forms a different conception of experience of the same sensory input. It is not even a possibility that 2 minds could experience the same sensory input in identical manner exactly the same/form the exact same conception of this sensory input. A chair reminds you of your grandmas chair you saw as a child. You associate memories of that chair seen long ago with this chair. Unique memories. Unique associations. Language is the practical means of conveying things we experience to others. When we see a chair and say this it is not likely anyone will disagree that the object they see is not a chair. We can agree on particulars of experiences but without exception there will be a point reached where we will disagree on attributes/meanings associated with the chair – or any other phenomena we experience whatsoever. It is this agreement of particulars of a phenomena by the use of words as language that enable successful communication exchange about chairs. We have a box in our minds in which we stuff phenomena into to categorize the phenomena (chair) – and these labels on the boxes are words. Words are generalizations of experiences. They are abstract ideas. We compare the chair word/category with other abstract ideas that distinguish this chair from other words/categories/boxes of abstract ideas in the mind with others in communication or thinking about it ourselves as  a thinking experience.   Nearly all things we know are known in this way. The association of words to phenomena from the senses is agreement between the users of the word on its reality. It is extremely important that you back step here and re-read that last sentence until you understand it. I am telling you that there is not a single thing that you know at ALL –  that is not by agreement. More accurately – there is nothing your mind can know at all that is not by agreement. These agreements/words/categories form the basis of your entire reality as mind. Agreements are particulars of phenomena we experience. ‘House’ is said,   and a particular idea/conception of a house arises in the mind. No one has the same idea but generally speaking most would agree houses have doors and windows/attributes/characteristics that distinguish them from other phenomena like frogs. These distinctions between things are the ONLY means by which your mind can EVER KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL. Houses owe their existence to being distinct things – that is the purpose of the forming of the word to begin with. This reality based on only being able to know something as distinguished from other things is called Duality.   Duality is extraordinarily important to understand. This single understanding will take you further than any other idea known to mankind. (the mind) Up exists by virtue of down. Left exists because of something less left – right. Blue – as distinguished from red. Tree from book. YOU FROM ME. There is absolutely no exception to anything or condition in the universe existing apart as a separate thing or condition. As soon as you have a ‘this’ – by default ‘that’ is born. YOU have no independent existence either.   Who are you? ‘Joe Jungle.’ Then I will tell you – no that is your name. I asked you who you are. (this is Richard Hittleman for all you Hittleman fans) You say – ‘I am Joe Jungle. I live at X. I work at Y. I was born in 1963 in New York. I drive a Honda. My favorite color is blue.’ Then I say no no – you misunderstood me. I don’t want to know things about you, I want to know who you are. After thinking about it for a moment, you say – ‘Well, I may not be able to tell you who I am, but I certainly know who I am.’ In which case I press you further – who is the you that knows who you are? Are there 2 you’s? The original you and the you that knows who you are? In that case there must be 3 you’s. The original you, the you that knows who you are, and the you that knows the you who knows who you are. In that case there must be 4 you’s… This is called Infinite Regress argument.   You have no existence independent of all other things as mind and body than any other thing or condition in the universe. You owe your existence to all other things just as all other things owe their existence to all other things. You could not exist if you did not have something with which to compare you to. That is the reason for your existence- to distinguish you from all other things. You exist in the same way all other things exist – in relation to all other things. As distinguished from all other things.   All things you know or ever will know as mind are in relation to all other things. This is the notion of duality or relativity.   (Einstein did not name his famous theories Special and General Relativity for nothing. In his case he uses inertial frames of reference – to be compared to other inertial frames). Understanding this duality may have to sink in. Study it for a few thousand years to

… read more »

Response:

Mike, This has to be one of the funniest things I have ever heard.  I know you were mostly trying to be serious in this writing of yours, but what you wrote above is really funny. Knowing that guided meditation and pop in the CD meditations are such bullshit, reading what you wrote gave me a good laugh tonight. Thanks.  I appreciate your time and effort on this posting. I don’t fully agree with your take on Self-Realization and Enlightenment (it only slightly differs).  But we can leave that for another day, if you’d like. Blessings, Swami

Response:

This post is on Experience and the nature of knowledge and what is real. It also covers the mind and God and the soul and who we are. It also covers duality and the metaphysics of thinking and what concentration are and the purpose of yogic techniques. Also touches on sleep/dream/consciousness/ESP and mysticism. It does not pay to attempt to do these one at a time because each requires the same set of issues addressed but they are only touched on the thrust is on Experience and the nature of knowledge and what is real and how we know what is real. From all the bad feelings and arguments I was going to show the difficulty of discussions held in this NG starting with Explanation Categories. However the metaphysics of understanding Explanation Categories requires understanding knowledge and duality/what is real and how do we know what is real first. So I only got as far as Experiences. I intend to follow with Explanation Categories and Science a little later on. Where does one draw the line in defense of their beliefs in arguing them? Explanation Categories leads to this and what I call mechanics of conversation but Professor Zarefsky calls ‘Argumentation the Study of Effective Reasoning. A set of protocols for expectations by parties debating an issue and the very peculiar history of how the West has proceeded pursing knowledge. It really is a Wild Wild West or Jungle/uncivilized/anybody’s guess how to proceed in conversation for very well know/documented historical reasons. From a Yoga perspective as related to this NG, first why do we do anything at all needs to be addressed and that requires ‘how do we know anything’ to be addressed first and this is the purpose of this post. From why do we do anything then can proceed why do we post in a NG? What expectations are had  by participants in dialog in a NG? The course by Zarefsky offers a much needed protocol participants in discussionsneed to realize. He unintentionally fills a blatant need after science and philosophy in the west screwed things up to a huge extent. Yoga comes from the verbal root yuj meaning to yoke or harness. It is a harnessing of the soul with God or Jiva with Paratma. It means other things to other people and it is not the intention here to re-dispute atheist meanings or distinctions between Vedanta and classical Patanjali Yoga.  It is necessary that you at least humor the idea of both God and soul/the premises/hypothesis long enough to get to the point – what is real and how do we know this? (ontology and epistemology).If you disagree with this definition fine – bye/I feel no compulsion to convince you. God is Truth and Truth is where you find it. There is no particular reason to have faith in God. Also these subjects have a long and interesting history. I have not specifically referenced them but could have easily done so off the top of my head. (Aristotle/Plato/Aquinas/Newton/Hume/Popper and the gang) So how might this yoking be done? Everyone has their own means of going about this and it is not the intention of this post to classify systems of lineages in yoga (Iyengar vs Kriya etc) into philosophical categories and discuss the merits of each. This leads inexorably to the questions – What is God? What is a soul? Which further leads to what philosophy and metaphysics is about to begin with – What is real and how do you know that?/ontology and epistemology. To attack this problem from the broadest possible perspective we first have to identify who we are. There are many answers also to the question of who we are. Instead of referring to scriptures and their interpretations (a common Biblical practice), I will attack this a very practical standpoint and refer to scriptures that point in that direction if and when appropriate without getting too long. How do we know who we are and what God is/if God exists we must address the problem of how do we know anything at all? We need to have a common basis for communication/fundamental underlying principles that can be agreed upon before disagreement takes place. Everything we know is the result of experience. Experience is of 3 varieties total. Experiences that come to us from the senses. This is by far the largest category. Experiences in the form of thinking. Experiences that are transcendental. God is a transcendental experience. A category denied by atheists and science. Experiences that come to us from the senses no one would deny. Interpretation of what those experiences are is quite another matter. As a result of the sum total of all our past experiences – something unique to all of us, we form opinions of experiences. No 2 minds form a conception of an experience in the same way. Every mind forms a different conception of experience of the same sensory input. It is not even a possibility that 2 minds could experience the same sensory input in identical manner exactly the same/form the exact same conception of this sensory input. A chair reminds you of your grandmas chair you saw as a child. You associate memories of that chair seen long ago with this chair. Unique memories. Unique associations. Language is the practical means of conveying things we experience to others. When we see a chair and say this it is not likely anyone will disagree that the object they see is not a chair. We can agree on particulars of experiences but without exception there will be a point reached where we will disagree on attributes/meanings associated with the chair – or any other phenomena we experience whatsoever. It is this agreement of particulars of a phenomena by the use of words as language that enable successful communication exchange about chairs. We have a box in our minds in which we stuff phenomena into to categorize the phenomena (chair) – and these labels on the boxes are words. Words are generalizations of experiences. They are abstract ideas. We compare the chair word/category with other abstract ideas that distinguish this chair from other words/categories/boxes of abstract ideas in the mind with others in communication or thinking about it ourselves as  a thinking experience. Nearly all things we know are known in this way. The association of words to phenomena from the senses is agreement between the users of the word on its reality. It is extremely important that you back step here and re-read that last sentence until you understand it. I am telling you that there is not a single thing that you know at ALL –  that is not by agreement. More accurately – there is nothing your mind can know at all that is not by agreement. These agreements/words/categories form the basis of your entire reality as mind. Agreements are particulars of phenomena we experience. ‘House’ is said, and a particular idea/conception of a house arises in the mind. No one has the same idea but generally speaking most would agree houses have doors and windows/attributes/characteristics that distinguish them from other phenomena like frogs. These distinctions between things are the ONLY means by which your mind can EVER KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL. Houses owe their existence to being distinct things – that is the purpose of the forming of the word to begin with. This reality based on only being able to know something as distinguished from other things is called Duality. Duality is extraordinarily important to understand. This single understanding will take you further than any other idea known to mankind. (the mind) Up exists by virtue of down. Left exists because of something less left – right. Blue – as distinguished from red. Tree from book. YOU FROM ME. There is absolutely no exception to anything or condition in the universe existing apart as a separate thing or condition. As soon as you have a ‘this’ – by default ‘that’ is born. YOU have no independent existence either. Who are you? ‘Joe Jungle.’ Then I will tell you – no that is your name. I asked you who you are. (this is Richard Hittleman for all you Hittleman fans) You say – ‘I am Joe Jungle. I live at X. I work at Y. I was born in 1963 in New York. I drive a Honda. My favorite color is blue.’ Then I say no no – you misunderstood me. I don’t want to know things about you, I want to know who you are. After thinking about it for a moment, you say – ‘Well, I may not be able to tell you who I am, but I certainly know who I am.’ In which case I press you further – who is the you that knows who you are? Are there 2 you’s? The original you and the you that knows who you are? In that case there must be 3 you’s. The original you, the you that knows who you are, and the you that knows the you who knows who you are. In that case there must be 4 you’s… This is called Infinite Regress argument. You have no existence independent of all other things as mind and body than any other thing or condition in the universe. You owe your existence to all other things just as all other things owe their existence to all other things. You could not exist if you did not have something with which to compare you to. That is the reason for your existence- to distinguish you from all other things. You exist in the same way all other things exist – in relation to all other things. As distinguished from all other things. All things you know or ever will know as mind are in relation to all other things. This is the notion of duality or relativity. (Einstein did not name his famous theories Special and General Relativity for nothing. In his case he uses inertial frames of reference – to be compared to other inertial frames). Understanding this duality may have to sink in. Study it for a few thousand years to attempt to refute the truth of it – so you have confidence it is true and can proceed based on knowledge of something that is true. Don’t laugh. Descartes also debated the reality of his own existence. His rather childish answer still entertained today by western philosophers was ‘I think therefore I am.’ (Cogito ergo sum). This is a testament of how easily … read more »

Response:

Question:

57/90  is not possible. The first number is always higher. I expect that HappyEboy99 means 157/90.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ive been doing yoga for the past five year and my blood pressure is 57/90.

Response:

I have been doing yoga for almost 30 years.. And I can honestly say..DONT TRY ANYTHING unless you RESEARCH the practice.. Just because its a yoga  practice doesn’t mean that its going to help.. there are breathing exercises that are totally   dangerous to hypertension.. and there are also breathing exercises that can help.. its up to the person to research it.. approach with CAUTION..and find  a regiment that compliments the person doing it.. the same goes for the postures.. or Asanas

Response:

 ive been doing yoga for the past five year and my blood pressure is 57/90.  

Response:

I have a friend starting yoga (Iyengar) who suffers from high blood pressure, diabetes and 18 months ago had a bypass operation.  He has been excercising and dieting carefully and is actually remarkably fit (all things considered).  Is there any danger for him in practicing this new dicipline. If so, what are they?  Thanks.

Response:

I have high blood pressure as well. Any inverted posture is contraindicated for folks with hypertension, as well as any posture that places the head lower than the heart.  These can lead to an increase in pressure in the cerebral arteries, not a good thing at all.  Otherwise, I know of no particular dangers with a yoga program.  I am not a doctor, however, so your friend should also check with his health professional for any other precautions. Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a friend starting yoga (Iyengar) who suffers from high blood pressure, diabetes and 18 months ago had a bypass operation.  He has been excercising and dieting carefully and is actually remarkably fit (all things considered).  Is there any danger for him in practicing this new dicipline. If so, what are they?  Thanks.

Response:

Question:

So far, by scouring this group, I have identified the following "types" of yoga: Hatha Yoga, Ashtanga Yoga, Iyengar Yoga, Swaroopa Yoga, Sahaja Yoga Kriya Yoga Kundalini Yoga, Five Tibetan Yoga, Bikram Chaudhuri’s Yoga I have to say, a Shiva/Shakti devotee of Hinduism is likely to be very confused by so many brand names.  Can anybody on this group please differentiate for us, the perceived differences in the US markets between all the various kinds of yogas!  I already know about the Sahaja Yoga of that fraud Nirmala Devi and the sexual harrassment charges associated with Kriya Yoga groups.  Does Deepak Chopra have his own brand of yoga yet ? PS: I’m crossposting a series of articles from alt.yoga to soc.culture.indian.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been looking to take a yoga class for the past six months but I am still stuck in the research stage.  This is not my first experience with Yoga. I took Yoga for three years in India at one of the govt run Yoga Kendras.  What I was taught was the basic yoga without any additions or changes and thats what I am interested in taking.  Which form of yoga would be the most traditional – Hatha, Ashtanga, Iyengar, Svaroopa????  Which do you think closely resembles the traditional form of Yoga???? Another problem I am facing is finding a yoga instructor who I feel comfortable with.  Most of them don’t even know the names of the asanas that they teach!!! I live in Atlanta and I will even willing to take time off and go to another city – a retreat or something like that to take classes for a week or so.  Any suggestions??? Thanks Naveena

Response:

Oops, I forgot one, Tantric Yoga.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So far, by scouring this group, I have identified the following "types" of yoga: Hatha Yoga, Ashtanga Yoga, Iyengar Yoga, Swaroopa Yoga, Sahaja Yoga Kriya Yoga Kundalini Yoga, Five Tibetan Yoga, Bikram Chaudhuri’s Yoga I have to say, a Shiva/Shakti devotee of Hinduism is likely to be very confused by so many brand names.  Can anybody on this group please differentiate for us, the perceived differences in the US markets between all the various kinds of yogas!  I already know about the Sahaja Yoga of that fraud Nirmala Devi and the sexual harrassment charges associated with Kriya Yoga groups.  Does Deepak Chopra have his own brand of yoga yet ? PS: I’m crossposting a series of articles from alt.yoga to soc.culture.indian. I have been looking to take a yoga class for the past six months but I am still stuck in the research stage.  This is not my first experience with Yoga. I took Yoga for three years in India at one of the govt run Yoga Kendras.  What I was taught was the basic yoga without any additions or changes and thats what I am interested in taking.  Which form of yoga would be the most traditional – Hatha, Ashtanga, Iyengar, Svaroopa????  Which do you think closely resembles the traditional form of Yoga???? Another problem I am facing is finding a yoga instructor who I feel comfortable with.  Most of them don’t even know the names of the asanas that they teach!!! I live in Atlanta and I will even willing to take time off and go to another city – a retreat or something like that to take classes for a week or so.  Any suggestions??? Thanks Naveena

Response:

I have been looking to take a yoga class for the past six months but I am still stuck in the research stage.  This is not my first experience with Yoga.  I took Yoga for three years in India at one of the govt run Yoga Kendras.  What I was taught was the basic yoga without any additions or changes and thats what I am interested in taking.  Which form of yoga would be the most traditional – Hatha, Ashtanga, Iyengar, Svaroopa????  Which do you think closely resembles the traditional form of Yoga???? Another problem I am facing is finding a yoga instructor who I feel comfortable with.  Most of them don’t even know the names of the asanas that they teach!!! I live in Atlanta and I will even willing to take time off and go to another city – a retreat or something like that to take classes for a week or so.  Any suggestions??? Thanks Naveena

Response:

If all u want to know is fancy names then that may not help the asanas. full foward bend can also be spelt uttanasana, depending on which language or MTTP how u say IT — — peace be the journey —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been looking to take a yoga class for the past six months but I am still stuck in the research stage.  This is not my first experience with Yoga. I took Yoga for three years in India at one of the govt run Yoga Kendras.  What I was taught was the basic yoga without any additions or changes and thats what I am interested in taking.  Which form of yoga would be the most traditional – Hatha, Ashtanga, Iyengar, Svaroopa????  Which do you think closely resembles the traditional form of Yoga???? Another problem I am facing is finding a yoga instructor who I feel comfortable with.  Most of them don’t even know the names of the asanas that they teach!!! I live in Atlanta and I will even willing to take time off and go to another city – a retreat or something like that to take classes for a week or so.  Any suggestions??? Thanks Naveena

Response:

Hello! <<<Which form of yoga would be the most traditional – Hatha, Ashtanga, Iyengar, Svaroopa????  Which do you think closely resembles the traditional form of Yoga??? As you probably know, the word "hatha" simply refers to the physical aspect of yoga practice! Iyengar Yoga is preoccupied with precision. They’re not much into a hot aerobic yoga practice. I think that you must have a yoga practice that emphasizes a good warm-up first. Look into Kripalu Yoga if they have anyone in Atlanta. Kripalu teaches us to develop a connection with our inner consciousness that will guide us. And that is important. "Ashtanga" yoga is a hot aerobic practice, very demanding! You can get good videos from the White Lotus Foundation, they have one called "Total Yoga." But watch out for the Soorya Namaskars…the standing forward bend part of it can be rough on the back unless you bend your knees enough. I found that i had to learn from several teachers until I developed the ability to do my own style. And I have learned to combine Chinese Chi Kung with my yoga practice. Raja

Response:

Hi, we are practicing yoga for about 10 years, and we can recomend you to contact Ananda Marga yoga group in your city. We are not sure if they have their center in Atlanta, but on web you can get all informations. Ananda Marga has balanced aproach to yoga and spirituality. The most important is that they have educated teachers who can teach you asanas (yoga postures), pranaymas and meditation. Beside this, Guru of Ananda Marga is an excelent writer, and you can enjoy his beautiful books. Greetings from Croatia, Mahadeva & Jharna

Response:

Check out yogi Hari in Fla. I think his work is strong and fairly classical. peace sandra

Response:

Question:

I’m hoping to go to Mysore in a few weeks to study with BNS Iyengar at the Sri Patanjala Yogashala. I am having trouble finding a phone number for it. If you have it I’d appreciate you passing it along, along with any comments of your experiences there.

Response:

I’m hoping to go to Mysore in a few weeks to study with BNS Iyengar at the Sri Patanjala Yogashala. I am having trouble finding a phone number for it. If you have it I’d appreciate you passing it along, along with any comments of your experiences there.

Try Mr.Iyengar’s website at http:www.bksiyengar.com which has contacts. It is in Pune, not Mysore. See the other post Iyengar Yoga. Shannon B.  For information on Yoga, Massage and Bodywork, and Natural Healing                  or to browse Holistic Products to order       visit the Roots & Wings Website at http://www.yoga.com

Response:

: I’m hoping to go to Mysore in a few weeks to study with BNS Iyengar at the : Sri Patanjala Yogashala. I am having trouble finding a phone number for it. : If you have it I’d appreciate you passing it along, along with any comments : of your experiences there. : Try Mr.Iyengar’s website at http:www.bksiyengar.com : which has contacts. It is in Pune, not Mysore. : See the other post Iyengar Yoga. : Shannon B. And I again point out that there is also *BNS* Iyengar See this page (that’s all I know of him): http://www.ajna.demon.co.uk/yoga/iyengar.htm#iyengar Tapani T.

Response:

Question:

Hi, everybody! I hope this is an appropriate place to post this question. I have been practicing yoga (Iyengar yoga, to be precise) for 3 years. Recently I moved, and am now looking for a good hatha-yoga class to take in Pittsburgh area. Does anybody have any suggestions – in particular, based on personal experience? Thank you!                                               Olga

Response:

Olga,      I have been  looking for a good organization as a source of class information here in Pgh too.  On March 30th in the Post Gazette there was a feature article on yoga in the Health section.  Mentioned the Yoga Training Association of Pittsburgh  Has existed for 25 years and " acts as a network for yoga enthusiasts".  Phone is 421-1506.  I am waiting for their membership packet to come in the mail. Pat

Response:

Question:

Recently i’ve become somewhat interested in yoga but have been unable to find any courses or groups close to where I live. Can anyone recommend any books on yoga that might serve as an introduction?; for instance explaining the various systems/styles, and ideas etc.  The best suggestion i’ve had so far is a book by Aleister Crowley entitled `8 lectures on yoga` … any thoughts on this?. Thanks, J0e.

Hi Joe, Crowley is a very weird choice to find something out about yoga, but not an altogether bad one, in my opinion. The good point he makes is his insistence that the practice of asana, as he calls it, is absolutely necessary. Be it half an hour or an hour daily, it is necessary to sit motionless regularly. There are other yoga teachers, too. Try http://www.uni-mb.si/~ustlat02d/Eng/index.html Yours Georg Naggies

Response:

Recently i’ve become somewhat interested in yoga but have been unable to find any courses or groups close to where I live. Can anyone recommend any books on yoga that might serve as an introduction?; for instance explaining the various systems/styles, and ideas etc.  The best suggestion i’ve had so far is a book by Aleister Crowley entitled `8 lectures on yoga` … any thoughts on this?. Thanks, J0e.

Check the Sivananda Web site for a Yoga Center near where you are. The adress is http://www.sivananda.org If you are in New Zealand there will be no Sivananda Center that I know of in that area. Check around for a school that teaches Yengar or Sivananda-like Yoga. For an excellent book on Yoga read The Complete Illustrated Book of Yoga by Swami Vishnu Devananda (it was translated in several languages and sold more than a million copies world-wide). Make sure the teacher is not after your money and that he or she practices what he teaches. Good luck Charles

Response:

Recently i’ve become somewhat interested in yoga but have been unable to find any courses or groups close to where I live. Can anyone recommend any books on yoga that might serve as an introduction?; for instance explaining the various systems/styles, and ideas etc.  The best suggestion i’ve had so far is a book by Aleister Crowley entitled `8 lectures on yoga` … any thoughts on this?. Thanks, J0e.

Response:

Recently i’ve become somewhat interested in yoga but have been unable to find any courses or groups close to where I live. Can anyone recommend any books on yoga that might serve as an introduction?; for instance explaining the various systems/styles, and ideas etc. The best suggestion i’ve had so far is a book by Aleister Crowley entitled `8 lectures on yoga` … any thoughts on this?. Thanks, J0e.

Joe – I’m sure everyone has their own favourite book that works for them. Here are a few I like – mainly concered with Hatha Yoga- – Iyengar ’s ‘Light on Yoga’ is very good for postures and explaining some yoga philosophy – I think it has been recently reissured. There is also a book called Yoga the Iyengar way’ By Silva, Mira & Shyam Mehta. The Sivananda Yoga Vendata Centre have a book called’  Yoga Mind & Body ‘which covers some other aspects of Yoga as well as postures – although not in great detail. Bookshops usually have several books on Yoga and related topics – browse and see which ones you like the feel of – also  you could try public libraries. Hope you find somethng to help you on your way. OM SHANTI Alison David Bone

Response:

Question:

Hey, Wait a minute. Who’s claiming to be the enlightened one? I thought I was the enlightened one. These guys are trying to move in on my territory? Wait till I tell God about this, he’ll kick your asses. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am glad my own experience was of some use to you.  Please feel free to post your thoughts, comments, experiences, here on the newsgroup. Don’t pay any attention to those guys over there, arguing about which of them is the Enlightened One.  (They are all the Enlightened One, and none of them is the Enlightened One – the trick is in understanding and seeing the One part…) Karl, As a very new student of yoga who is learning a bit of the Iyengar style, your description was most insightful and useful.  I am most grateful. Jamie

Response:

I would like to say thank you to Bob for saying what I have been thinking for a while about this newsgroup. Yoga exercises (hatha yoga) are what most people practice and are familar with when the term "yoga" is used. It is sad to see some of the critical responses about what a true "yogi" or yoga instructor is.  How soon the nouveau "yogis" forget how yoga was introduced and became popular in the U.S.. Namaste, Tim

Response:

Welcome, Janice.

Thank you for your welcoming words.  They mean a lot.  It is indeed a special time, learning so much about yoga on a physical and spiritual plane.  I continue to practice about 5 times a week, continue to see progress, continue to want to learn more.  Perhaps one day I will be able to share my knowledge with others. Again, thanks for your encouragement. Question – the videos use the Iyengar system.  What are the advantages-disadvantages of this and other styles of yoga, for the rank beginner?  I like the precision and emphasis on correct form in Iyengar, but, this all being so new to me, I have nothing with which to compare. Sincerely, Janice

Response:

Hi, First time I have logged onto this newsgroup, and only started yoga about a month and a half ago.  I take a yoga class once a week, and I have all 6 of the Yoga Journal videos (Christmas gifts).  I have done all 6 of them and was surprised that I could do most of the postures (but the crane pose is not possible for me yet!), although I have a long way to go to improve my flexibility.  There is a seventh video in the series that will be out later this month, also with Rodney Yee and also filmed in Maui.  Something to do with healing and the back.  I have ordered a copy. I find all these videos beautifully filmed, and inspiring, and the quality of instruction by Walden, and especially by Yee, superb.  I have already recommended them to several friends.   Yoga is very new to me, but I have already learned a great deal from these videos and from my weekly class, and have begun to see positive effects at various levels of my life. Just my 2 cents for today.  Glad I found this newsgroup. Thanks. Janice

Response:

Welcome, Janice. You are in a very powerful and precious moment in your life, and one which many of us who frequent this newsgroup can relate to and remember in our own lives.   Revel in it. I thought I might mention that you will see postings from individuals and groups in this newsgroup that are not only bizarre and  inappropriate for a group discussing Yoga, but bizarre and inappropriate for ANY newsgroup. That’s because there is no "control" over what gets posted here, and where it comes from.  If you look in the TO: line on your newsreader, you’ll sometimes see more than one (and sometimes more than twenty) groups that the individual posted to: a sure sign of a problem poster, usually. What does that make the group alt.yoga?  Why, a microcosm of this plane of existence, which includes seekers, sinners, devils, the bedeviled, people who seek to know God, people who think they know God, people who think they are God, and people who think they know people who think they know there is no God…and every permutation in between. So, just think of your visits here as another type of Yoga class…one in tolerance, practice in seeing the Divine in all, and a chance to see the Dance of Kali firsthand! God Bless, and keep practicing.  (Quality matters, not quantity.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, First time I have logged onto this newsgroup, and only started yoga about a month and a half ago.  I take a yoga class once a week, and I have all 6 of the Yoga Journal videos (Christmas gifts).  I have done all 6 of them and was surprised that I could do most of the postures (but the crane pose is not possible for me yet!), although I have a long way to go to improve my flexibility.  There is a seventh video in the series that will be out later this month, also with Rodney Yee and also filmed in Maui.  Something to do with healing and the back.  I have ordered a copy. I find all these videos beautifully filmed, and inspiring, and the quality of instruction by Walden, and especially by Yee, superb.  I have already recommended them to several friends. Yoga is very new to me, but I have already learned a great deal from these videos and from my weekly class, and have begun to see positive effects at various levels of my life. Just my 2 cents for today.  Glad I found this newsgroup. Thanks. Janice

Response:

Iyengar yoga tends to focus strictly on the physical. Other arms of the yoga umbrella consider mental, spiritual aspects more, & a wider variety of methods, ie. pranayama, mantra. In adition there are many other styles of Hatha Yoga, Kripalu is focused on exploring self, bikram & ashtanga are still different views. The book Living Yoga from Yoga Journal can help you learn more. peace sandra

Response:

I feel I had to comment on the statement below: Iyengar yoga tends to focus strictly on the physical. Other arms of the yoga umbrella consider mental, spiritual aspects more, & a wider variety of methods, ie. pranayama, mantra.

Following is my limited understanding of the vast complex method of teaching classical yoga as developed by Mr. BKS Iyengar. I have only met and studied with him once, but have been reading his books for years and have studied with many teachers trained by him. For a fuller understanding of his method and teachings read his books, or go study with him before making judgements or sweeping statements regarding his teachings.For the last fourteen years I have been studying classical hatha yoga under the Iyengar system. From day one in class and since, I have always been taught of the eight limbs of yoga, and the sutras ( strong emphasis on yama and niyama) are taught as part and parcel of the asana practice. Iyenagar’s first book, Light on yoga, written mostly in the fifties and published in the sixties, begins with long description of the eight limbs of yoga. Iyengar continues to emphasize the sutras, some Vedanta philosophy and daily pranayama practice. One reason I have stayed with the Iyengar method is that in my exploration of other systems, the approach to asana was not as attentive and mindful in integrating Yama and Niyama and pranayama in particular. Iyengar’s later books, (Light on the Yoga Sutras – A full translation and commentary of Patanjalis’ Yoga Sutras, Light on Pranayama, The Tree of Yoga and so on) are full of profound discussion of the eight limbs of yoga and how to integrate study into daily life and asana and pranayam practice. Iyengar starts every class with the invocation to Patanjali and other chants to integrate, sound and mantra into the mental focus required for a spiritual, mindful approach to asana. Iyengar method of study emphasises study of Self in the sense of Atman and so on, the models of the classical texts. Asana practice is not separate from the Eight limbs, but of a piece, woven intricately into a spiritual practice where Yama and Niyama, and Dharana an Dhyana are all integrated into the approach that defines an asana practice. Asana is action where the mindful and spiritual teachings of the sutras are practiced in action , in the body, not just as an intellectual excercise. This is but a simplistic summary of the glimmer I have seen in yoga over the last 14 years, a deep wellspring I feel I have just begun to understand and see. Iyengar’s words, example by living, teachings and inspiration continue to be a source of inpiration and guidance for me, even while I have looked at other methods as they have been manifested in the US. Karl. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In adition there are many other styles of Hatha Yoga, Kripalu is focused on exploring self, bikram & ashtanga are still different views. The book Living Yoga from Yoga Journal can help you learn more. peace sandra

Response:

Karl, As a very new student of yoga who is learning a bit of the Iyengar style, your description was most insightful and useful.  I am most grateful. Jamie

Response:

I am glad my own experience was of some use to you.  Please feel free to post your thoughts, comments, experiences, here on the newsgroup.  Don’t pay any attention to those guys over there, arguing about which of them is the Enlightened One.  (They are all the Enlightened One, and none of them is the Enlightened One – the trick is in understanding and seeing the One part…) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Karl, As a very new student of yoga who is learning a bit of the Iyengar style, your description was most insightful and useful.  I am most grateful. Jamie

Response:

Hi: I have Yoga Journal Videos, practice for beginners and practice for flexibility both with Patricia Walden.  I haven’t done them in awhile but I find them the flexibility very difficult and more advanced then I am so I will stick with the beginner one. What I wanted to know is a Yoga class much like the video?  Would the video prepare me to take a class?  Does a person get more out of a class or video or is it just a matter of what you put into it?  Generally with very other day practice how long does it take to be flexible (currently I when trying to touch my toes I can only go about 6-8" from my knee, but when I was doing it daily I was able touch my toes with my first joint in my finger [I count from my nail up] but, I was also working out with weights 5-12lbs and doing aerobics also from home. My goal with yoga is to increase my flexiblity.  I find when my body is streached I relax better and move better.  I also think it can help with muscle tone but not sure on this.  I’m always amazed by someone how has practiced for along time their body always seem balanced not to mention they have incredible flexibility. Also how old should one be to start practicing? Thanks in advance for your help.

Response:

I think the best thing to do with yoga video courses is repeating the  I n d i a n  teacher’s (Iyengar) exercices (asanas) and compareing them with your own asanas being recorded or  translated by videocamera.

Response:

The best way to answer your questions is to invite you to risk taking a beginning class or series. There’s know age too old, some of my students started in their sixties and older. Classes and personal home practice do differ often in the experience they offer. I think a good class can add more depth and breadth of understanding about the hows and whys of the work, give a greater variety of techniques to choose from for your practice and give a greater sense of support and momentum to the Yoga you do at home. Another idea is to also check out different videos to get a sense of the variety of approaches that instruction can take. One of the most liberating aspects of beginning a Yoga practice for me was changing my mindset from one of competitiveness or judgment to acceptance of myself as I was even as I did well or not so well in different poses or techniques. Physical and other benefits accrue from the level at which you are working, not from any  place you may feel you need to be. I’ve found cutivating and using this attitude in Yoga and elsewhere is a real antidote for perfectionism and procrastination that can keep me from risking new things. Good luck with whatever you do choose to do. AJF – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the best thing to do with yoga video courses is repeating the  I n d i a n  teacher’s (Iyengar) exercices (asanas) and compareing them with your own asanas being recorded or  translated by videocamera.

Response:

I have taken private yoga classes, and have not taken a "group" class.  Some studios/schools offer this at a reasonable rate, especially if you explain that you want to try a yoga class without feeling self-conscious. I too have tried the videos.  Having an instructor in person can give you guidance on the proper execution of the asanas.  Some poses are difficult to do correctly without a qualified instructor to ensure this.

Response:

Question:

Whoa Tom!  Since 1974?  That’s a long time!         I’ve been doing Hatha Yoga in Milwaukee at the (now defunct) Yoga Center on Water St. for a little under 3 years.   My class now ends up meeting in a park on Saturday mornings…(although I do a some  asanas & pranayama most days)                 …Rodney : Houston, TX : I’ve been doing yoga since ‘74, albeit with a few interuptions

Response:

I’m from Vancouver, Canada. Have been studying and working at Yasodhara Ashram in the British Columbia Kootenay mountains. Have responded very deeply to the teachings of Swami Sivananda Radha

Response:

Houston, TX I’ve been doing yoga since ‘74, albeit with a few interuptions Of all the things I’ve lost, I miss my mind the most. Thomas L. Haney     *  AKA Rocko on IRC  *   Houston, TX

Response:

Hi!

I’m a Yogateacher from Hamburg – Germany and I teach Kundalini Yoga now for 5 years.I started with Yoga in 1989. Watch our new Kundalini Yoga homepage: http://homepages.cats-erfurt.de/~harihar/3ho.htm God bless & Sat Nam! Hari Har Singh

Response:

I’m from the Jersey Shore and studying Hatha for years.  Thinking about doing teacher training at Kripalu and would like to find some Kundaline classes?  Can anyone help?

   Hello! I recomend that you look into the online directory of the IKYTA – the International Kundalini Yoga Teachers Ass. – to find a Kundalini Yoga teacher close to your place. Yo’ll find it here: www.yogibhajan.com Good luck & God bless! Hari Har Singh – PS: I’m from Hamburg / Germany

Response:

I’m stationed at Patrick AFB Florida. This is my first time reading this group, actually in reality my first time reading any group seriously. I’ve bought my first Yoga book but my problem is teaching myself. From the looks of it, none of the individuals who have responded to this are from this area (boy is that an understatement!), but just for the hell of it:does anyone know of any good Yoga teachers in my area? Or does anyone have any hints or suggestions on how to effectively teach oneself? Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from dallas, texas.

– Before you judge me take a look at you can’t you find something better to do point the finger, slow to understand arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand    Metallica, Self-titled

Response:

Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from dallas, texas.

I’m from Durban, South Africa!

Response:

I live in  Long Island, New York. I’m a beginning student, but my natural flexibility is allowing me to advance rather quickly. I am blessed to have a good yoga studio minutes from my house that teaches a great blend of hatha and pranayama, and blessed that my husband will mind our 2yo while I go to class. I mainly lurk here since I am so new to yoga, but I’m grateful to all those advanced students and teachers who bestow their knowledge to us newbies.

Response:

Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from dallas, texas.

I’m from San Antonio, Texas and began practicing yoga (Iyengar style) almost three years ago.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Observer, I live near cape cod in Massachusetts, and I teach yoga at a nearby college.  I hope to be opening a yoga studio soon.  Yoga helps to yolk me here on earth with the divine, and I am blessed to be working with an Indian woman who is 70, the style is basically hatha, but with a richness that is hard to describe. jai bhagwan, namaste, sat nam…. Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from dallas, texas.

Dear Observer, I read this NG from Orlando FL.

Response:

Minneapolis Mn but the traffic here has died off so much I may unsuscribe!!

Response:

Hari Har Singh Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from dallas, texas.

I’m from Manchester in the UK (Manchester is in the North West of England). I study Kriya Yoga from the Satyananda school, but mainly I just love my Guru, Neem Karoli Baba Maharaj.

Response:

Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from dallas, texas. I am in Salt Lake City Utah.  Yes, even Mormons do yoga!  ;^)

Bay Area, California. bb

Response:

: : Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from Texas. : Hi, I’m from Nottingham, England. Hi from Scotland but Ipswich.  Its all chitta this group NAMASTE Ian — Tel: (+44) 0468-038-027         http://www.ajna.demon.co.uk                 "Blessed Be God For All His Gifts"                 ASHTANGA – OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI HE

Response:

Norway, heading for India…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from dallas, texas.

Response:

San Francisco bay area. I took teacher training at Kripalu & I’m an Integrative Yoga Therapist. I’m currently studying Iyengar style. I teach about 5 classes weekly. I find yoga to be a woderful path toward greater growth & awareness.

Response:

Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from dallas, texas.

I’m from Chicago, Illinois.  Headed to….who knows…..

Response:

I’m from Hamburg, Germany – that’s in europe! Sat Nam Hari Har Singh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from dallas, texas.

Response:

Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from dallas, texas.

I’m in Seattle, WA, studying ashtanga yoga

Response:

Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from dallas, texas.

Hi!         I’m at the University of California at Davis, where I’m working on a PhD. in neuroscience.  I’ve studied with a number of San Francisco- based Iyengar instructors (because they teach asanas well), but the Hatha Yoga I practice is centered much more around practices such as agni sara, nauli kriya, and mudras, which I learned from a couple of teachers from different lineages.  I also practice internal alchemy-type martial arts (i.e. martial arts that, if done right, also sends energy up the back similarly to the internal alchemy practices of hatha yoga, if done right). I don’t teach classes;  I just do the practices.                         Mark

Response:

Salt Lake City, Utah.  Hatha Yoga. Bruce

Response:

Observer, I live near cape cod in Massachusetts, and I teach yoga at a nearby college.  I hope to be opening a yoga studio soon.  Yoga helps to yolk me here on earth with the divine, and I am blessed to be working with an Indian woman who is 70, the style is basically hatha, but with a richness that is hard to describe.   jai bhagwan, namaste, sat nam…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from dallas, texas.

Response:

Just wondering where the people who read this NG are from.  I am from dallas, texas.

I’m in Northeast PA and practice Kripalu yoga along with a little chi gong and tai chi.  As a clinical psychologist I specialize in behaivoral medicine and find these modalities, along with meditation, very helpful to my patients.  Good luck.  Bernard

Response:

Question:

I believe Yoga doesn’t work Any comments DGL

Response:

I believe Yoga doesn’t work Any comments

I’ve only been at yoga (Iyengar style) for about a year; perhaps I’m a bit naive, but at least in the early stages it appears that you get out what you put into it. My teacher states that yoga is a lifelong pursuit–a process, not a competition to see how quickly you can get to the point where you can put your ankles behind your ears. There are no shortcuts–no way to circumnavigate your own limitations and preconceptions. I guess it really depends on what you want out of yoga. In the way the yoga fits into my life I believe that it does work — even after a year I am more mindful of my physicalness and have already seen some health benefits to the process. Every day I try to integrate yoga into my hectic life; it keeps me balanced, relaxed, and energized. If the process of yoga can help me live to a respectable old age and retain my flexibility, mobility, and vitality, I would say that it works with flying colors and is worth every effort I can afford.  Jay Brian Kummer                 I think all right-thinking people in this    Software Guy/Zappa Fan           country are sick and tired of being told    Department of Cellular Biology   that ordinary, decent people are fed up      Medical College of Wisconsin     in this country with being sick and tired.  Searching for slack…           tired of being told that I am. (Python)    

Response: