Question:

Hi Stu, Do you think a holy person sells his ideas?

No.  But they do need to eat.  Do you think any holy person cheats his fellows?

No.  And I have seen no evidence of the anyone in the TM organization cheating anybody.  All TM people talking about LEVITATION!!!

I am a TM person I don’t talk about levitation.  Maharishi only talks about it when he is discussing human potentiality.  He is an avid optimist. Please be awake…Even you have been cheated by getting your 35 dollars…This should give you an idea!!!

My $35 was a suggested donation.  Somebody has to pay for the roof over their heads. Do you get your yoga books for free? I am not an authority… I am a PATANJALI FOLLOWER. and there is no need to interprete PATANJALI…It is clearly open… 8 STAGES all of them constitute YOGA… The yoga sutras are very open to interpretation.  These are not detailed instructions.  They are broad aphorisms.

So please be awake, be mindful. Regards, Don’t worry about me.  It is clear you have not gone to a TM center and talked with the people.  You are only reporting what you have heard.   You have heard wrong.

– ~Stu

Response:

Hi Stu, Do you think a holy person sells his ideas? Do you think any holy person cheats his fellows? All TM people talking about LEVITATION!!! Please be awake…Even you have been cheated by getting your 35 dollars…This should give you an idea!!! I am not an authority… I am a PATANJALI FOLLOWER. and there is no need to interprete PATANJALI…It is clearly open… 8 STAGES all of them constitute YOGA… So please be awake, be mindful. Regards, — Bothi This message originated from http://www.yoga-meditation.org

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Sevenhundred Elves, I know that defendents try to defend wrong doers! Non of the math scholar makes  any mistake regarding what you are saying about Geometry. What I am talking about  is not for people new in YOGA… I am alking about people who present themselves as YOGA TEACHERS,or some sort of Instructors. And YOGA schools,or yoga sites…. Being mindful is good for everybody. But these yoga teachers do you really think they are mindful? As far as I know mistakes are done without any mindfullness. To defend a mistake is another mistake, lets not defend wrong doers… Lets be all mindful, Yes, but think about it again: If you are a yoga teacher who wants to teach more than just the asanas, how would you announce it? Since there are many yoga classes where only asanas are taught, those who want to teach a more complete yoga (including pranayama, pratyahara, dharana etcetera) will have to add a line saying that they are also teaching meditation. How would you do that, if you were such a yoga teacher? It seems to me, that, no matter how you phrase it, it might look as if you were separating yoga from meditation. Perhaps they could say something like "We teach yoga, including meditation", would that be acceptable? (But even that looks a bit like separating meditation from yoga) S. Instead of I think it again, why don`t you see where  I am pointing at!!! Most of the YOGA teaching people are not teaching YOGA,if you teach only ASANA it becomes ASANA but not YOGA! if you teach only MEDITATION it becomes meditaion but not yoga… So to teach YOGA one should know what YOGA is and really should tech  YOGA… THE 8 STAGES .. How you do it depends on if teacher is honest or not… If cheeters become YOGA TEACHERS, it is very easy to pinpoint them,you may see if he/she is teching YOGA or not…And the key words indicate the point very clearly. SATYA should be the one to defend…. I hope I have made myself clear… Lets be mindful  :)  :) His holiness the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi puts it another way.  He maintains that when one is properly initiated into a meditation practice, they will have a regular experience of cosmic consciousness. As a result of this daily ritual that the other parts of the astanga will naturally flow towards the individual.  His book "The Science of Being and the Art of living" make a strong case for this.  It is as if all experiences flow from cosmic consciousness.  The astanga is a natural outgrowth of a meditation practice. Another Yogi, BKS Iyengar takes another approach.  His yogic philosophy starts with asana.  His method has a student understanding the fundamental principals of asana.  After a few years once the fundamentals are mastered through careful discipline then he introduces pranayama practice.  Eventually, the student’s physiology is developed so greatly that the student may take part in the path of meditation. For Mr. Iyengar it is important to take each step one at a time. Here are two Indian Yogic Masters from the same ancient traditions who have dialectically opposed philosophies.  I agree with both of them. — ~Stu Hi Stu, There is no master. Mahareshi Mahesh is a *COMMERCIAL PERSON* He sells MANTRAS for a highly great money… I did make a donation of $35 when I was initiated.  That does not seem like too much for a practice I have had for over 30 years now. In yoga there is aparigraha, that means  one can not charge such a high prise for a mantra…And do not lie  Mahesh claims  to fly on the air, which is not correct. No one has been able to fly without any equipment  so far.No lies…All must be on SATYA basis. Evidently you are not familiar with MMY’s practices.  He has never made claims of levitation. Therefore MAHES is far away from HOLINESS… And it is a pty to mention holines with his name…Holiness needs being correct and pure….Holiness is not so cheap!!! This sounds like words spoken out of ignorance.  Have you read "Science of Being, Art of Living".  Have you heard him lecture.  Or are you just going by the rumors started by fundamentalist xtian anti-meditation groups? Yes B.K.S. Iyengar is a yogi. He is not giving emphasis only for ASANAS. If you know his style,all his work is on yoga,that is on the 8 STAGES. You have seen only asanas,in asanas he shows exactly  3 planes BODY PLANE,ENERGY PLANE and DIVINITY PLANE. In divinity plane you are making meditation while you are on any asana….Even when inhaling actually  we receive divine nergy he says,when we exhale,we submit ourselves into the divinity… These are his own words,while he is teaching PRANAYAMA… Great sage PATANJALI has put forward what YOGA IS….So you may check it to see the reality on YOGA!! Agreed.  However, every yogi I have come in contact has a different interpretation of Patanjali.  This is common.   I know for example that Yogacharya T Krishnamacharya taught four different interpretations of the Yoga Sutras. But these days, many FALSE TEACHERS talking about YOGA but they do not know it . They are doing atletics,freaks, or all type of Bullies,like the ones in circus, getting into a small box.. These are not yoga in INDIA there are many FAKIRS doing lot of hard postures but what they do is not yoga at all…False teachers teaching false YOGA!!!! So if new starting people want to know yoga,they just be careful, and see if their teacher really know YOGA or not. If teacher says YOGA and Meditation, that means he/she does not know YOGA at all. YOGA is the name of INTEGRATION. Seperation has nothing to do with yoga… In Yoga we try to be our own MASTERS… Lets be all mindful But who made you the authority on what is the correct yoga?  And why would your interpretation be more accurate then a guy who teaches Yoga in a health club as a way to tighter buns? Are we not all students on the same path? — ~Stu Howdy Stu! I would say: "Quite the opposite!" We are all students. Each of us is on a UNIQUE path. Eventually (ideally), all of the paths arrive at the same location.

Howdy Dave, I am pretty sure we are in agreement on this issue. — ~Stu

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Sevenhundred Elves, I know that defendents try to defend wrong doers! Non of the math scholar makes  any mistake regarding what you are saying about Geometry. What I am talking about  is not for people new in YOGA… I am alking about people who present themselves as YOGA TEACHERS,or some sort of Instructors. And YOGA schools,or yoga sites…. Being mindful is good for everybody. But these yoga teachers do you really think they are mindful? As far as I know mistakes are done without any mindfullness. To defend a mistake is another mistake, lets not defend wrong doers… Lets be all mindful, Yes, but think about it again: If you are a yoga teacher who wants to teach more than just the asanas, how would you announce it? Since there are many yoga classes where only asanas are taught, those who want to teach a more complete yoga (including pranayama, pratyahara, dharana etcetera) will have to add a line saying that they are also teaching meditation. How would you do that, if you were such a yoga teacher? It seems to me, that, no matter how you phrase it, it might look as if you were separating yoga from meditation. Perhaps they could say something like "We teach yoga, including meditation", would that be acceptable? (But even that looks a bit like separating meditation from yoga) S. Instead of I think it again, why don`t you see where  I am pointing at!!! Most of the YOGA teaching people are not teaching YOGA,if you teach only ASANA it becomes ASANA but not YOGA! if you teach only MEDITATION it becomes meditaion but not yoga… So to teach YOGA one should know what YOGA is and really should tech  YOGA… THE 8 STAGES .. How you do it depends on if teacher is honest or not… If cheeters become YOGA TEACHERS, it is very easy to pinpoint them,you may see if he/she is teching YOGA or not…And the key words indicate the point very clearly. SATYA should be the one to defend…. I hope I have made myself clear… Lets be mindful  :)  :) His holiness the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi puts it another way.  He maintains that when one is properly initiated into a meditation practice, they will have a regular experience of cosmic consciousness. As a result of this daily ritual that the other parts of the astanga will naturally flow towards the individual.  His book "The Science of Being and the Art of living" make a strong case for this.  It is as if all experiences flow from cosmic consciousness.  The astanga is a natural outgrowth of a meditation practice. Another Yogi, BKS Iyengar takes another approach.  His yogic philosophy starts with asana.  His method has a student understanding the fundamental principals of asana.  After a few years once the fundamentals are mastered through careful discipline then he introduces pranayama practice.  Eventually, the student’s physiology is developed so greatly that the student may take part in the path of meditation. For Mr. Iyengar it is important to take each step one at a time. Here are two Indian Yogic Masters from the same ancient traditions who have dialectically opposed philosophies.  I agree with both of them. — ~Stu Hi Stu, There is no master. Mahareshi Mahesh is a *COMMERCIAL PERSON* He sells MANTRAS for a highly great money…

I did make a donation of $35 when I was initiated.  That does not seem like too much for a practice I have had for over 30 years now. In yoga there is aparigraha, that means  one can not charge such a high prise for a mantra…And do not lie  Mahesh claims  to fly on the air, which is not correct. No one has been able to fly without any equipment  so far.No lies…All must be on SATYA basis.

Evidently you are not familiar with MMY’s practices.  He has never made claims of levitation. Therefore MAHES is far away from HOLINESS… And it is a pty to mention holines with his name…Holiness needs being correct and pure….Holiness is not so cheap!!!

This sounds like words spoken out of ignorance.  Have you read "Science of Being, Art of Living".  Have you heard him lecture.  Or are you just going by the rumors started by fundamentalist xtian anti-meditation groups? Yes B.K.S. Iyengar is a yogi. He is not giving emphasis only for ASANAS. If you know his style,all his work is on yoga,that is on the 8 STAGES. You have seen only asanas,in asanas he shows exactly  3 planes BODY PLANE,ENERGY PLANE and DIVINITY PLANE. In divinity plane you are making meditation while you are on any asana….Even when inhaling actually  we receive divine nergy he says,when we exhale,we submit ourselves into the divinity… These are his own words,while he is teaching PRANAYAMA… Great sage PATANJALI has put forward what YOGA IS….So you may check it to see the reality on YOGA!!

Agreed.  However, every yogi I have come in contact has a different interpretation of Patanjali.  This is common.   I know for example that Yogacharya T Krishnamacharya taught four different interpretations of the Yoga Sutras. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But these days, many FALSE TEACHERS talking about YOGA but they do not know it . They are doing atletics,freaks, or all type of Bullies,like the ones in circus, getting into a small box.. These are not yoga in INDIA there are many FAKIRS doing lot of hard postures but what they do is not yoga at all…False teachers teaching false YOGA!!!! So if new starting people want to know yoga,they just be careful, and see if their teacher really know YOGA or not. If teacher says YOGA and Meditation, that means he/she does not know YOGA at all. YOGA is the name of INTEGRATION. Seperation has nothing to do with yoga… In Yoga we try to be our own MASTERS… Lets be all mindful

But who made you the authority on what is the correct yoga?  And why would your interpretation be more accurate then a guy who teaches Yoga in a health club as a way to tighter buns? Are we not all students on the same path? — ~Stu

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Sevenhundred Elves, I know that defendents try to defend wrong doers! Non of the math scholar makes  any mistake regarding what you are saying about Geometry. What I am talking about  is not for people new in YOGA… I am alking about people who present themselves as YOGA TEACHERS,or some sort of Instructors. And YOGA schools,or yoga sites…. Being mindful is good for everybody. But these yoga teachers do you really think they are mindful? As far as I know mistakes are done without any mindfullness. To defend a mistake is another mistake, lets not defend wrong doers… Lets be all mindful,

Yes, but think about it again: If you are a yoga teacher who wants to teach more than just the asanas, how would you announce it? Since there are many yoga classes where only asanas are taught, those who want to teach a more complete yoga (including pranayama, pratyahara, dharana etcetera) will have to add a line saying that they are also teaching meditation. How would you do that, if you were such a yoga teacher? It seems to me, that, no matter how you phrase it, it might look as if you were separating yoga from meditation. Perhaps they could say something like "We teach yoga, including meditation", would that be acceptable? (But even that looks a bit like separating meditation from yoga) S.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Sevenhundred Elves, I know that defendents try to defend wrong doers! Non of the math scholar makes  any mistake regarding what you are saying about Geometry. What I am talking about  is not for people new in YOGA… I am alking about people who present themselves as YOGA TEACHERS,or some sort of Instructors. And YOGA schools,or yoga sites…. Being mindful is good for everybody. But these yoga teachers do you really think they are mindful? As far as I know mistakes are done without any mindfullness. To defend a mistake is another mistake, lets not defend wrong doers… Lets be all mindful, Yes, but think about it again: If you are a yoga teacher who wants to teach more than just the asanas, how would you announce it? Since there are many yoga classes where only asanas are taught, those who want to teach a more complete yoga (including pranayama, pratyahara, dharana etcetera) will have to add a line saying that they are also teaching meditation. How would you do that, if you were such a yoga teacher? It seems to me, that, no matter how you phrase it, it might look as if you were separating yoga from meditation. Perhaps they could say something like "We teach yoga, including meditation", would that be acceptable? (But even that looks a bit like separating meditation from yoga) S. Instead of I think it again, why don`t you see where  I am pointing at!!! Most of the YOGA teaching people are not teaching YOGA,if you teach only ASANA it becomes ASANA but not YOGA! if you teach only MEDITATION it becomes meditaion but not yoga… So to teach YOGA one should know what YOGA is and really should tech  YOGA… THE 8 STAGES .. How you do it depends on if teacher is honest or not… If cheeters become YOGA TEACHERS, it is very easy to pinpoint them,you may see if he/she is teching YOGA or not…And the key words indicate the point very clearly. SATYA should be the one to defend…. I hope I have made myself clear… Lets be mindful  :)  :) His holiness the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi puts it another way.  He maintains that when one is properly initiated into a meditation practice, they will have a regular experience of cosmic consciousness. As a result of this daily ritual that the other parts of the astanga will naturally flow towards the individual.  His book "The Science of Being and the Art of living" make a strong case for this.  It is as if all experiences flow from cosmic consciousness.  The astanga is a natural outgrowth of a meditation practice. Another Yogi, BKS Iyengar takes another approach.  His yogic philosophy starts with asana.  His method has a student understanding the fundamental principals of asana.  After a few years once the fundamentals are mastered through careful discipline then he introduces pranayama practice.  Eventually, the student’s physiology is developed so greatly that the student may take part in the path of meditation. For Mr. Iyengar it is important to take each step one at a time. Here are two Indian Yogic Masters from the same ancient traditions who have dialectically opposed philosophies.  I agree with both of them. — ~Stu Hi Stu, There is no master. Mahareshi Mahesh is a *COMMERCIAL PERSON* He sells MANTRAS for a highly great money… I did make a donation of $35 when I was initiated.  That does not seem like too much for a practice I have had for over 30 years now. In yoga there is aparigraha, that means  one can not charge such a high prise for a mantra…And do not lie  Mahesh claims  to fly on the air, which is not correct. No one has been able to fly without any equipment  so far.No lies…All must be on SATYA basis. Evidently you are not familiar with MMY’s practices.  He has never made claims of levitation. Therefore MAHES is far away from HOLINESS… And it is a pty to mention holines with his name…Holiness needs being correct and pure….Holiness is not so cheap!!! This sounds like words spoken out of ignorance.  Have you read "Science of Being, Art of Living".  Have you heard him lecture.  Or are you just going by the rumors started by fundamentalist xtian anti-meditation groups? Yes B.K.S. Iyengar is a yogi. He is not giving emphasis only for ASANAS. If you know his style,all his work is on yoga,that is on the 8 STAGES. You have seen only asanas,in asanas he shows exactly  3 planes BODY PLANE,ENERGY PLANE and DIVINITY PLANE. In divinity plane you are making meditation while you are on any asana….Even when inhaling actually  we receive divine nergy he says,when we exhale,we submit ourselves into the divinity… These are his own words,while he is teaching PRANAYAMA… Great sage PATANJALI has put forward what YOGA IS….So you may check it to see the reality on YOGA!! Agreed.  However, every yogi I have come in contact has a different interpretation of Patanjali.  This is common.   I know for example that Yogacharya T Krishnamacharya taught four different interpretations of the Yoga Sutras. But these days, many FALSE TEACHERS talking about YOGA but they do not know it . They are doing atletics,freaks, or all type of Bullies,like the ones in circus, getting into a small box.. These are not yoga in INDIA there are many FAKIRS doing lot of hard postures but what they do is not yoga at all…False teachers teaching false YOGA!!!! So if new starting people want to know yoga,they just be careful, and see if their teacher really know YOGA or not. If teacher says YOGA and Meditation, that means he/she does not know YOGA at all. YOGA is the name of INTEGRATION. Seperation has nothing to do with yoga… In Yoga we try to be our own MASTERS… Lets be all mindful But who made you the authority on what is the correct yoga?  And why would your interpretation be more accurate then a guy who teaches Yoga in a health club as a way to tighter buns? Are we not all students on the same path? — ~Stu

Howdy Stu! I would say: "Quite the opposite!" We are all students. Each of us is on a UNIQUE path. Eventually (ideally), all of the paths arrive at the same location. — Dave

Question:

        In a recent thread something to the order of "A muscle cannot be stretched while it is bearing weight" was stated. This is very interesting to me and am wondering about specifics, articles studies etc dealing with the subject.         The reason for my interest is I have a tendancy to have two troublesome tight spots, claves and ITB. After reading the above statement I did a mental check on my regular stretching regime and it seems that most all my stretches except the ones used to stretch the above trouble spots are not weight bearing.         Typically I stretch my ITB doing the Lean against the wall and push the hip in stretch and my calves using a wedge board or "push the wall down" stretch. Also typically in all other aspects of stretching in a series of 3 x 15-30 sec stretches I can gain noticable ROM. I.E. My hamstrings I may have an additional 10-15 (guess) degrees more range of motion by the third stretch than the first. Typically not so with calves and or ITB. Additionally if I’m religious about my stretching I can gain mobility I.E. Start of the week not be able to put head on knee end of week can. Also not the case with calves or ITB.         So all of this lead me to "attempt" to do a non weight bearing calve stretch. The first question I came to was, whether it’s weight or some other force, some force must be used to stretch the muscle. In the case of the hamstring stretch the weight of the upper torso typically provides the force, However the hamstring is not holding any weight of the body, but it is in some fashion bearing the "force" that is applied to it by the opposing muscles and the weight of the torso. In the perfect world we would all have personal trainers appliing the force for the stretch, but this still would be force.         So back to the calve stretch. Doing the "push the wall down" stretch, requires that the body be supported by the calf of at least one foot. What I found that by taking away the weight from the calf that was to be stretched, simply did not apply enough force to create a stretch. This lead me back to the Whartons book were you sit down, stretch with the opposing muscle and assist the stretch with a towel or rope. I’ve done this same stretch in the past but quite doing it simply because I did not get results and I never felt I was getting a stretch because of lack of applied force.         So this lead me to a question of how does one stretch a muscle such as the calf or IT without causing a body load and or is a body load acceptable, just that it must be controled as to not put the muscle into a state of contraction? In the case of the hamstring strech this is fairly easily accomplished as you have a fairly large lever, the entire leg, and a nice controlable weight, the torso controlled by fairly strong back muscles. In the case of the foot You have either a tiny lever, the foot with no weight or a huge lever, the entire body with no way to control the weight. The only thing I could come up with was a "stretching device" or doing pullups and lowering ones weight down onto something like a wedge board.         Obviously by the length of the post and the above babbling I have absolutely no clue what’s going, am barking up the wrong tree or have missed the obvious. Any suggestions would be appreciated. ~Matt    

Response:

You should get a copy of the Wharton’s book on stretching. In it they show stretches that accomplish non weight bearing stretches by using a rope to give that extra push. The ITB section gives two medial stretches and one lateral stretch all while on your back. Likewise with the calf muscles, one for the inner calf muscle that you assist with your hands and another for the major muscle that you assist with a rope, these are done while sitting on your butt. All of these and more were created by a sports PT from Florida, Aaron L. Mattes, and are specifically for athletes. The basics are by contracting the opposing muscles you allow for a greater stretch of the target muscle and you assist the stretch at the end point and hold it for only two seconds with several reps on each stretch. I can’t say that it will work for you, just they work for me. To wit, when I start having a ITB flare up I usually find that the muscles on inside of my thight are the "tight" ones and stretching them along with one for the ITB itself will resolve the problem in short order. Of course, YMMV. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       In a recent thread something to the order of "A muscle cannot be stretched while it is bearing weight" was stated. This is very interesting to me and am wondering about specifics, articles studies etc dealing with the subject.       The reason for my interest is I have a tendancy to have two troublesome tight spots, claves and ITB. After reading the above statement I did a mental check on my regular stretching regime and it seems that most all my stretches except the ones used to stretch the above trouble spots are not weight bearing.       Typically I stretch my ITB doing the Lean against the wall and push the hip in stretch and my calves using a wedge board or "push the wall down" stretch. Also typically in all other aspects of stretching in a series of 3 x 15-30 sec stretches I can gain noticable ROM. I.E. My hamstrings I may have an additional 10-15 (guess) degrees more range of motion by the third stretch than the first. Typically not so with calves and or ITB. Additionally if I’m religious about my stretching I can gain mobility I.E. Start of the week not be able to put head on knee end of week can. Also not the case with calves or ITB.       So all of this lead me to "attempt" to do a non weight bearing calve stretch. The first question I came to was, whether it’s weight or some other force, some force must be used to stretch the muscle. In the case of the hamstring stretch the weight of the upper torso typically provides the force, However the hamstring is not holding any weight of the body, but it is in some fashion bearing the "force" that is applied to it by the opposing muscles and the weight of the torso. In the perfect world we would all have personal trainers appliing the force for the stretch, but this still would be force.       So back to the calve stretch. Doing the "push the wall down" stretch, requires that the body be supported by the calf of at least one foot. What I found that by taking away the weight from the calf that was to be stretched, simply did not apply enough force to create a stretch. This lead me back to the Whartons book were you sit down, stretch with the opposing muscle and assist the stretch with a towel or rope. I’ve done this same stretch in the past but quite doing it simply because I did not get results and I never felt I was getting a stretch because of lack of applied force.       So this lead me to a question of how does one stretch a muscle such as the calf or IT without causing a body load and or is a body load acceptable, just that it must be controled as to not put the muscle into a state of contraction? In the case of the hamstring strech this is fairly easily accomplished as you have a fairly large lever, the entire leg, and a nice controlable weight, the torso controlled by fairly strong back muscles. In the case of the foot You have either a tiny lever, the foot with no weight or a huge lever, the entire body with no way to control the weight. The only thing I could come up with was a "stretching device" or doing pullups and lowering ones weight down onto something like a wedge board.       Obviously by the length of the post and the above babbling I have absolutely no clue what’s going, am barking up the wrong tree or have missed the obvious. Any suggestions would be appreciated. ~Matt    

Response:

   So back to the calve stretch. Doing the "push the wall down" stretch, requires that the body be supported by the calf of at least one foot. What I found that by taking away the weight from the calf that was to be stretched, simply did not apply enough force to create a stretch. This lead me back to the Whartons book were you sit down, stretch with the opposing muscle and assist the stretch with a towel or rope. I’ve done this same stretch in the past but quite doing it simply because I did not get results and I never felt I was getting a stretch because of lack of applied force.

I start my calf stretch with a flexed knee, to stretch just the deep calf muscles (mainly the soleus). Then I do the straight-knee rope one for the gastrocnemius. The two in combination work just fine. If you still feel as if you’re lacking applied force, apply more force. (Be sure you’re using a rope or something real sturdy; I’ve used a rolled-up shirt or similar when my rope wasn’t handy, and a lot of the force got absorbed as the fabric stretched.)    So this lead me to a question of how does one stretch a muscle such as the calf or IT without causing a body load and or is a body load acceptable, just that it must be controled as to not put the muscle into a state of contraction?

If the muscle is bearing weight, it *is* contracting. That’s why the Whartons et al. advise non-weight-bearing stretches pretty much exclusively. To stretch the tensor fascia latae (the muscle that pulls the ITB — the ITB itself doesn’t stretch) I lie down and use the rope to pull my leg across my midline. The Whartons explain it pretty well (page 20 on my copy of their book). It works. — Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading If you’re going through hell, keep going. –Winston Churchill

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -You should get a copy of the Wharton’s book on stretching. In it they show stretches that accomplish non weight bearing stretches by using a rope to give that extra push. The ITB section gives two medial stretches and one lateral stretch all while on your back. Likewise with the calf muscles, one for the inner calf muscle that you assist with your hands and another for the major muscle that you assist with a rope, these are done while sitting on your butt. All of these and more were created by a sports PT from Florida, Aaron L. Mattes, and are specifically for athletes. The basics are by contracting the opposing muscles you allow for a greater stretch of the target muscle and you assist the stretch at the end point and hold it for only two seconds with several reps on each stretch. I can’t say that it will work for you, just they work for me. To wit, when I start having a ITB flare up I usually find that the muscles on inside of my thight are the "tight" ones and stretching them along with one for the ITB itself will resolve the problem in short order. Of course, YMMV.

        I actually have the Whartons book, "Active Isolated Stretching" or something like that. As I mentioned before I had regualrly used that method on my calves for a fairly prolonged period of time, a month or so, adn did not get any results.         The reason I believe I did not get results was due to teh fact that I could not get enough, force or leverage to actually stretch teh muscle. I have not tried this approach on my ITB, I may give it a whirl though. ~Matt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       In a recent thread something to the order of "A muscle cannot be stretched while it is bearing weight" was stated. This is very interesting to me and am wondering about specifics, articles studies etc dealing with the subject.       The reason for my interest is I have a tendancy to have two troublesome tight spots, claves and ITB. After reading the above statement I did a mental check on my regular stretching regime and it seems that most all my stretches except the ones used to stretch the above trouble spots are not weight bearing.       Typically I stretch my ITB doing the Lean against the wall and push the hip in stretch and my calves using a wedge board or "push the wall down" stretch. Also typically in all other aspects of stretching in a series of 3 x 15-30 sec stretches I can gain noticable ROM. I.E. My hamstrings I may have an additional 10-15 (guess) degrees more range of motion by the third stretch than the first. Typically not so with calves and or ITB. Additionally if I’m religious about my stretching I can gain mobility I.E. Start of the week not be able to put head on knee end of week can. Also not the case with calves or ITB.       So all of this lead me to "attempt" to do a non weight bearing calve stretch. The first question I came to was, whether it’s weight or some other force, some force must be used to stretch the muscle. In the case of the hamstring stretch the weight of the upper torso typically provides the force, However the hamstring is not holding any weight of the body, but it is in some fashion bearing the "force" that is applied to it by the opposing muscles and the weight of the torso. In the perfect world we would all have personal trainers appliing the force for the stretch, but this still would be force.       So back to the calve stretch. Doing the "push the wall down" stretch, requires that the body be supported by the calf of at least one foot. What I found that by taking away the weight from the calf that was to be stretched, simply did not apply enough force to create a stretch. This lead me back to the Whartons book were you sit down, stretch with the opposing muscle and assist the stretch with a towel or rope. I’ve done this same stretch in the past but quite doing it simply because I did not get results and I never felt I was getting a stretch because of lack of applied force.       So this lead me to a question of how does one stretch a muscle such as the calf or IT without causing a body load and or is a body load acceptable, just that it must be controled as to not put the muscle into a state of contraction? In the case of the hamstring strech this is fairly easily accomplished as you have a fairly large lever, the entire leg, and a nice controlable weight, the torso controlled by fairly strong back muscles. In the case of the foot You have either a tiny lever, the foot with no weight or a huge lever, the entire body with no way to control the weight. The only thing I could come up with was a "stretching device" or doing pullups and lowering ones weight down onto something like a wedge board.       Obviously by the length of the post and the above babbling I have absolutely no clue what’s going, am barking up the wrong tree or have missed the obvious. Any suggestions would be appreciated. ~Matt    

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       So this lead me to a question of how does one stretch a muscle such as the calf or IT without causing a body load and or is a body load acceptable, just that it must be controled as to not put the muscle into a state of contraction? If the muscle is bearing weight, it *is* contracting. That’s why the Whartons et al. advise non-weight-bearing stretches pretty much exclusively.

        My question is weight bearing or not we are still appling force to the muscle. At what point does the muscle begin contractions? At what weight? I know Wharton’s mentioned a period of time before the muscle naturally goes into contraction, can’t remember a time exactly, but I believe thsi is why they recommend shorter stretches. To stretch the tensor fascia latae (the muscle that pulls the ITB — the ITB itself doesn’t stretch) I lie down and use the rope to pull my leg across my midline. The Whartons explain it pretty well (page 20 on my copy of their book). It works.

I’ll check my book and see what it says. Been about a year or so since I read it. Just didn’t have much luck with their approach so I kinda dropped it. ~Matt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading If you’re going through hell, keep going. –Winston Churchill

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   My question is weight bearing or not we are still appling force to the muscle. At what point does the muscle begin contractions? At what weight? I know Wharton’s mentioned a period of time before the muscle naturally goes into contraction, can’t remember a time exactly, but I believe thsi is why they recommend shorter stretches.

2 seconds is the magic number I learned. Stretch for 2 seconds, recover for 1-2 seconds, then stretch again, ideally 8-12 reps. — Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading If you’re going through hell, keep going. –Winston Churchill

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So this lead me to a question of how does one stretch a muscle such as the calf or IT without causing a body load and or is a body load acceptable, just that it must be controled as to not put the muscle into a state of contraction? If the muscle is bearing weight, it *is* contracting. That’s why the Whartons et al. advise non-weight-bearing stretches pretty much exclusively. My question is weight bearing or not we are still appling force to the muscle.

Bingo! I’ve been reading this entire discussion, unable to push aside that old High School Physics dictum: "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Force is force, whether it comes from gravity or a rope pull. And the reaction to the force is contraction. No two ways about it. The only thing I can conjure up as more harmful is that "weight bearing" introduces balancing and unstability to the stretch. Other than that, it’s just another force. I have found it helpful to keep the duration of stretches, when not doing AI, to 5 seconds or less prior to a run (when I am not fully warmed up). This uses the AI concept that you want to avoid contraction, which generally begins to harm in the 3-5 (and up) second range (e.g., AI stretches are 1-2 seconds). In addition, for the calves, I try to do some form of massage (with the Stick (TM) or with my hands) prior to stretching, and also try to loosen up my calves some–making circles with my foot is one way. —

Question:

Interesting stuff, thanks.  However Plato screwed up by associating the mind with the soul as the Logos or ‘Rational Principle’ that put all of Western philosophy in a tailspin/tragic-comedy since. Alfred North Whitehead said all of Western philosophy is nothing more than footnotes to Plato including his own. Since Plato screwed it up to start with and Christianity in turn stole a lot of his ideas – the resulting mess is the excuse we call philosophy and religion in the West today – my account. My background is Vedanta and Yoga in India – where these ideas were taken and correctly deployed.

I don’t have a big problem with that, it ultimaty gave us science, economic wealth and alt.yoga newsgroup. Without this concept the whole world would be poor as 90 % of today’s Indians, so we wouldn’t  know much about yoga or Plato. I did not see why exactly Hypatia was killed by a mob in the street as a Neoplatonist – I don’t know if this is because they do not know or if the articles I read were too short.

It is not likely that the mob knew anything about the phylosophycal differences between Christianity and Neoplatonism, otherwise it wouldn’t be a mob. It was just plain old intolerance towards anything that’s different. India is much more fascinating than this elementary Western stuff. I needed to summarize my ideas on Plotinus as related to Plato and yoga and this writeup helped me do it. There is a lot left out including Orphism whos roots need to be traced back to India and the trade routes between India and Greece at that time (Alexander the Great marched to India so they knew of India and it is likely he followed a trade route.)

I read somewhere that Plotin picked up some ideas from Buddhist missionaries/monks who came to Greece from India. Hari Om, Taras

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Hi, I typed this up in about an hour so it likely was too fast an has some things I should review and clean up. It is for a film on Hypatia – a female Neoplatonist murdered by a mob of Christians in Alexandria 370-415 C.E. She was a brilliant philosopher who was beautiful and was considered a martyr of philosophy by the Enlightenment. Somehow she got involved in the politics of the day with the city’s precept. I stuck this up as a new post here because of the parallels I see with Yoga and Vedantic philosophy. As in both Plato and Plotinus and Parmenides and Heraclitus and Pythagoras and the Orphism all got their ideas from India. I can elaborate lots of them. I did not look for them – they just appeared while I was doing research on Hylomorphism and Platos Theory of Forms as related to Mantra/Nama-Rupa (Name and Form) and Shabdabrahman.Nada-Bindu stuff in Indian thought. It is fairly long but it sums up a lot of concepts in a hurry – too fast for people that can do better justice to the characters below…. Also it appears there may be an interest in basic yogic metaphysics. After knowing them for so long I tend to forget/take them for granted but I have reason to believe recently that it would be nice to have a quick summary of Indian philosophy and Yoga and the 25 categories/tattvas etc – if this is the case – all I have to do is cut and paste from stuff I have done in the past. My main interest is in manta/sanskrit and quantum mechanics believe it or not. It is amazing where these things take you! Today I discovered for instance that Structuralism and Levi Strauss are related to Hylomorphism – the Eucharist also! see ya, Mike Dubbeld I do not know Plato’s theory of forms… I don’t really know much of anything when it comes to Platonism or Neoplatonism.  I’m looking for a crash course! I know plenty about Hypatia and life in Alexandria at the time – it’s just the philosophy I’m stuck on.  I’ve had a few books recommended to me, but if I had time for books I wouldn’t be looking for people to help explain it all to me I know this sounds like a copout, but for the last 4 months I have been reading and reasearching every other aspect of this story.  I’m way overdue to get the outline of my movie done, and the prospect of spending even another month trying to understand philosophy books is a daunting one. Especially with something like this, I wanted to find real, living people to exchange ideas from and understand the topic.  I have to imagine this is a better way that reading through texts… Care to offer some ‘Plato for dummies’ ideas?  Or would this be Platon? Starts here MD… Just off the top of my head. Plato was the first Rationalist. He believed there was a Divine Order to the universe. His Gods were jealous/greedy/spiteful/unpredictable. Pythaogoras found the Pythagorean Theorem – significant because it could be applied to all right triangles and was true before the universe was came into being and will be true after it is gone. That means unlike all the changing things in the universe – including the Gods, they had something they could sink their teeth into/ was reliable – like science today worships the speed of light in a vacuum. Phthagoras also found mathematics in music and concluded that mathematics was therfore the underlying reality of the universe. If triangles had equations that were eternal then so must all other forms – even if they did not know what they were. Pythagoras preceeded Plato and 2 other groups – the Eleatics with Parmenides ‘The One’ (stolen from Indian Vedanta) and Zeno who held that being/the universe could not have sprung from non-being and so Being always was/was eternal and undifferentiated – ‘The One’. The Ionians who were pre-Socratics that believed there is one underlying substance from which all the universe is made. Thales believed it was water and Anxamander ‘The Boundless’ and Anaximenes air. Out of this one substance arose all else in the universe. They were opposed to the Eleatics and said there was Many – not One. Many things not one thing. (Note that today Quantum Mechanics has taken a sudden interest in Indian ideas because they held 3000 years ago the idea of ‘The One’ – the universe is connected. We are not separated as our senses would have us believe and ‘The One’ is true. The universe IS an undifferientiated whole. Anyway Plato’s mission was to take the 2 schools – the Eleatics ‘The One’ and Ionians ‘The Many’ and synthesize them to make sense because alone as Plato demonstrated in his dialogue ‘The Parmenides’ they did not make sense (nor did his own theory of forms where young Socrates is soundly trashed by Parmenides. Plato was aware that his own Theory of Forms was so far a failure). Signicifant to note that Plato and Socrates believed that ‘To know the good is to do the good.’ This is called Ethical Rationalism and means all of the worlds problems are the result of ignorance. People did evil because they were unaware of the fallacy of doing it. Thus knowledge was highly worshiped and Plato believed the philosopher to be the one that should run the state as the most knowledgeable person. He believed there should be a ‘Philosopher King’. In his Allegory of the Cave the prisoners are tied to the wall and they are only ever able to see shadows on a wall in front of them all their life. They come to lend reality to these shadows because it is all they know. When one breaks free and goes up into the sunlight he is dazeled by its brilliance. When he returns to the cave to tell the others they think him mad and fear him. Plato uses this to show what happened to Socrates who was made to drink hemlock. To show the fallacy of a Democracy (which he blamed on Athens losing the war to Sparta to also). Interesting to note that India did indeed do what the Greeks never did – use philosopher kings as rulers (Gandhi/Radhadkrishnan). Prior to the pre-Socratics the Greeks based reality on a ‘Who’s who’ in the universe as in what God came first and the how the other Gods followed – much like a bloody soap opera based on Hesiods Theogony where the Gods did not create the universe but were instead part of it. (Cronos and the Titans and then Zeus and gang). The universe was all based on the Gods. The pre-Socratics turned that around with their influence/exposure to other cultures to a what question with the Ionians – What was the universe made of (note it is not that they denied the existence of the Gods – What – was a separate issue) What was the universe made of (Water/the Boundless/air – or an underlying changelessness of the Eleatics ‘The One’ and Plato’s own Theory of Forms). The Ionians took it a step further to a question of HOW the universe was made – the issue of what substance from which all other substances arose meant reasoning on how that basic underlying substance could be the right one (water/the boundless/air). Well Plato never wrote his final dialoge ‘The Philosopher King’ because his Theory of Forms he realized was a failure. And the philosopher king was to rule according to this theory of forms so he could not write it not having the answers to its problems/flaws. This Theory of Forms (TOF) Plato belived was equivalent to the ideas in the mind. Ideas were forms. We have horses as individual particular entities – but they were material and decayed like all else in the universe. Horses according to Plato ‘participated’ in the ‘horse form’. In other words there was one essence for horses as a single form which was eternal and changeless for which all horses participated in. Similarly there was a ‘Form of the Good’. Later to become known as God by the Christians. Humans had a form they participated in. Everything in the universe had a form for which it participated in. More importantly virtues like Truth and Justice and Love also had forms. All human justice participated in the ultimate form of Justice. Our human justice is never as good as this Absolute Justice but is something we must always strive for. When Socrates goes to drink the hemlock he is given 1 day to be with his students who grieve for him and fear he will perish with his last breath as is depicted in the Iliad and the Odyssey when Homer talks about the last breath of life is breathed out. But Socrates assures them that he is going home. That he does not belong here. He is returning to the Forms from where he came from. The forms are Eternal and the Forms (equations/geometric forms- including human forms and the Form of the Good) are eternal. Socrates tells them that the soul is imprisoned in the body and longs to be free to return to where it belongs. In the dialogue Meno the barbarian understands the Pythagorean theorem as Socrates shows him by drawing it in the sand with a stick – because the barbarian ‘recalls’ it. How else could the barbarian know of it if he had never been taught it? When someone explains something to us we struggle to understand what they mean. When it finally ‘dawns’ on us we say AH HA!! now I get it!! When we see the answer we think how we could not have known it like we knew it all along and were recalling it. Plato has it that we DID know it all along because our true home as souls is with the Forms. All learning is simply a recollection of what we already know. The soul reincarnates from one body to the next until it is made pure like Socrates by dialectic enquiry. Then it can return home to the Forms from whence it came. This is important because this is where the Christain heaven came from as well as the Platonizing of the God of Israel. The God of Israel is as different as night and day from Plato’s Form of the Good – or ‘The Divine’. Plato has God as a ‘Thing’ whereas the God of Israel is a Who with a story. "You will be my people and I will be your God." Like a contract or marriage between God and the people of Israel. Also we find Jesus comming back and there will apparently be a heaven on earth. But from Plato’s influence Christians ascend to … read more »

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Question:

Wait a second, your question had so many sub-questions I missed the big one! Is Buddhism a Hindu sect??? This is a horse of a different color! Although I have found no evidence that states that Buddha ever denounced Hinduism, his own teaching must be seen as a point of departure from Hinduism! Yes, he was born Hindu; and yes, he did denounce some of it’s contents; but it really would be a mistake to think that he lead some type of revolt against Hinduism. On the contrary, he was known to criticize those who do not practice their traditions. But here again – when Buddha Awakened, and made his first teachings to his former companions, (the woods dwellers) this must be seen as the beginning of Buddhism. In other words, Buddhism is not a branch on the Hindu tree, it is a completely new tree. OPEN HEART – OPEN MIND

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Dear friends, there is a guy lurking around in alt.yoga who constantly states that Buddhism (Jainism and Sikhism to) is a Hindu sect. What do you think about this ? From your point of view – is there ANY truth in these words? Hari Har Singh Below an example for an answer he gave. Just so you know, and it seems to matter to you, Okido Yoga is started in Japan, by a Zen Buddhist, who studied yoga in India.  It is a blend of Zen and traditional yoga techniques. The yoga teacher I attend classes at is an Ismaili Muslim.  Well, were does that leave me?  I certainly do not feel lost, for I am I great student! Wade

Buddhism is of course a cult/sect of Hinduism, so Buddhists can be genuine teachers of the various aspects of Yoga. A Muslim "yoga teacher" I don’t think so.

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That would make Christianity and Islam a sect of Judaism then…

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Dear friends, there is a guy lurking around in alt.yoga who constantly states that Buddhism (Jainism and Sikhism to) is a Hindu sect. What do you think about this ? From your point of view – is there ANY truth in these words? Hari Har Singh

This is his truth, I hope it works for him.  To me these classifications are not important.  What is important are the Four Noble Truths, practice and mindfulness.   Pride and chauvanism are distractions.   Dan   Please remove nospam in email address to contact me.

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Well, whatever get’s him to the light, I suppose. I see no reason why a Muslim could not study Yoga the same as anyone else. I know Yoga did originate in India, and it is possible that the particular style of yoga he mentioned may have happened the way he says. I ‘m sure that meditation and contemplation were already well established in China before Buddhism arrived. I don’t know anything about Jainism or Sikhism, just at this time but I can assure you that I will research this and find out if they truly are Hindu sects…. there is a possibility! In the meantime perhaps someone will come up with the correct answer- if there is one. (I say if there is one, because in Ancient India most of the early doctrines were not written as was the Muslim and Jewish traditions, so there may be a certain amount of "grey area" there. OPEN HEART – OPEN MIND

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Question:

Within each ejaculate is a wealth of vital nutrients and life force energy.

"Life force energy," eh?  How much is there, and what units do you measure it in, anyway?  As for the "wealth" of nutrients, you’re not going to get a wealth of anything out of a teaspoon (or less) of ejaculate.  It’s only what, 10 calories, and although it contains traces of all kinds of stuff, we’re not talking health food here. [snip] So, in the ancient Chinese Taoist tradition it was believed that men who ejaculated more frequently than their age and overall state of health allowed, would actually age faster. So, various practices were developed, all with the goal of "conserving the seed," yet not necessarily at the expense of sexual pleasure. The writings of Tantra Yoga from India also echo these ideas and teachings.

Some of them promoted "retrograde ejaculation" in which the ejaculate goes into the bladder rather than out the urethra.  BFD, since the next time the man urinates, out goes the ejaculate!  Certainly there were Taoist sects that believed this "conservation," but others did not. Shucks, don’t let me stop you, but it’s not a universal Taoist belief that you have to make love in a certain way. Keep in mind, however, that BPH or long-term benign prostatic hypertrophy, is often caused by a chronic deficiency in zinc.

Nobody knows whether this is true.  The strongest known association with BPH and diet is total fat intake.  There are several other nutrients that may be involved.   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants                   were standing on my shoulders."

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Within each ejaculate is a wealth of vital nutrients and life force energy. "Life force energy," eh?  How much is there, and what units do you measure it in, anyway?  As for the "wealth" of nutrients, you’re not going to get a wealth of anything out of a teaspoon (or less) of ejaculate.  It’s only what, 10 calories, and although it contains traces of all kinds of stuff, we’re not talking health food here.

[snip]

Or gulp. What did I ever do for entertainment before I came here?? Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -So, in the ancient Chinese Taoist tradition it was believed that men who ejaculated more frequently than their age and overall state of health allowed, would actually age faster. So, various practices were developed, all with the goal of "conserving the seed," yet not necessarily at the expense of sexual pleasure. The writings of Tantra Yoga from India also echo these ideas and teachings. Some of them promoted "retrograde ejaculation" in which the ejaculate goes into the bladder rather than out the urethra.  BFD, since the next time the man urinates, out goes the ejaculate!  Certainly there were Taoist sects that believed this "conservation," but others did not. Shucks, don’t let me stop you, but it’s not a universal Taoist belief that you have to make love in a certain way. Keep in mind, however, that BPH or long-term benign prostatic hypertrophy, is often caused by a chronic deficiency in zinc. Nobody knows whether this is true.  The strongest known association with BPH and diet is total fat intake.  There are several other nutrients that may be involved.  – David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone     These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.       "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants                  were standing on my shoulders."

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Within each ejaculate is a wealth of vital nutrients and life force energy. Semen is known to be high in proteins, hormones, enzymes, vitamins, minerals, trace elements and other vital nutritional substances. It is especially high in lecithin and zinc, which are also found in high concentrations in the human brain. In fact, there are enough sperm in each ejaculate to populate the entire United States! For those of you that like numbers, the seminal fluid (ejaculate) normally contains 60 to 150 million sperm/mL. And, the volume of ejaculate ranges from 2 to 5 mL. Therefore, the total number of sperm/ejaculation is between 120 to 750 million sperm. So, in the ancient Chinese Taoist tradition it was believed that men who ejaculated more frequently than their age and overall state of health allowed, would actually age faster. So, various practices were developed, all with the goal of "conserving the seed," yet not necessarily at the expense of sexual pleasure. The writings of Tantra Yoga from India also echo these ideas and teachings. In one ancient manuscript, "The Secrets of the Jade Bedroom," an age-related system of semen conservation was suggested. Vigorously healthy males at the age of 15 could ejaculate up to twice daily, at 30 up to once daily, at 40 up to once in three days, at 50 once in five days, at 60 once in ten days and at 70 once in thirty days. Males with health problems were advised to wait twice as long between emissions. In another text, "The Master of the Cave Profound," the method proposed was for the man to make love as frequently as desired, but to ejaculate only two to three times for every ten coitions. By following this program, a man was said to enjoy radiant health, long life and inner peace. Other suggestions were that seasonal variations were important and should be honored. For example, in the Spring a maximum frequency of ejaculation could be enjoyed, whereas in the Winter, especially when it is very cold, a man should conserve his energy. There is not much written about "self-pleasuring" in regards to these teachings, but as far as I can see, there is no difference, as you are simply consorting with the life force itself. In other words, the guidelines about frequency of ejaculation and "conserving the seed" would remain the same. In Taoism, it was common knowledge that by placing a woman’s pleasure ahead of the man’s own, great marital bliss and harmony was achieved. According to Eastern philosophy, woman is seen as being high in inexhaustible yin or water energy and can be likened to a pot of water, slow to bring to a boil, whereas the man, being high in exhaustible yang or fire energy, flares up immediately. So, in Taoist lovemaking, the man is careful to monitor himself, helping his partner become aroused and going slowly himself, matching his energy to that of his lover, so that they can both come to a boil together. So, instead of seeing lovemaking as an event with ejaculatory orgasm as the primary event, lovemaking is conceived of as a goalless and joyful event, lasting much longer in duration than before. The astute man learns to know where his "point of no return" is and to stay well below that point while pleasing the woman. With this style of lovemaking, males often experience streams of full-body orgasmic sensations, which are just as pleasurable and much longer-lasting than ejaculation. So, he can increase his life force and vital energy a great deal by abstaining from actual ejaculation on a regular basis. He can also pick and choose wisely when and how often to actually ejaculate. Thus, he avoids the pronounced feelings of tiredness caused by the sudden loss of semen (yang energy) from the body, resulting in a sudden yin condition. By the way, these teachings point to an excellent method of building up the fertility levels in the man when he is desiring to optimally impregnate his partner. By saving his ejaculation until the exact time of ovulation in the female partner, a vigorous and healthy child with a strong immune system will be produced. Also, in ancient China, lovemaking was seen as one of the most powerful medicines that one could take. In fact, by studying ancient Chinese medical manuscripts, it is clear that couples would often be instructed to have sex in specific manners or positions for specific ailments as a primary form of treatment. In conclusion, I want to emphasize that according to many authorities, there is nothing wrong with going for a full release, at times. In fact, if a man has been having a series of especially intense lovemaking sessions or he has been "on the verge" for a prolonged period of time, according to Western medicine, it is probably wise to proceed to full ejaculation, in order to reduce the potential of swelling in the prostate gland. Keep in mind, however, that BPH or long-term benign prostatic hypertrophy, is often caused by a chronic deficiency in zinc. This is because, in the male, much of the body’s zinc is stored in the prostate gland.  So, if a man ejaculates more frequently than he can take in and assimilate food sources of zinc from his environment, the prostate gland will respond by growing larger, i.e. hypertrophy, in its’ attempt to compensate for the deficiency. This is similar to what the heart muscle does when it is deprived of a full supply of oxygen over time.

Response:

Question:

Within each ejaculate is a wealth of vital nutrients and life force energy. Semen is known to be high in proteins, hormones, enzymes, vitamins, minerals, trace elements and other vital nutritional substances. It is especially high in lecithin and zinc, which are also found in high concentrations in the human brain. In fact, there are enough sperm in each ejaculate to populate the entire United States! For those of you that like numbers, the seminal fluid (ejaculate) normally contains 60 to 150 million sperm/mL. And, the volume of ejaculate ranges from 2 to 5 mL. Therefore, the total number of sperm/ejaculation is between 120 to 750 million sperm. So, in the ancient Chinese Taoist tradition it was believed that men who ejaculated more frequently than their age and overall state of health allowed, would actually age faster. So, various practices were developed, all with the goal of "conserving the seed," yet not necessarily at the expense of sexual pleasure. The writings of Tantra Yoga from India also echo these ideas and teachings. In one ancient manuscript, "The Secrets of the Jade Bedroom," an age-related system of semen conservation was suggested. Vigorously healthy males at the age of 15 could ejaculate up to twice daily, at 30 up to once daily, at 40 up to once in three days, at 50 once in five days, at 60 once in ten days and at 70 once in thirty days. Males with health problems were advised to wait twice as long between emissions. In another text, "The Master of the Cave Profound," the method proposed was for the man to make love as frequently as desired, but to ejaculate only two to three times for every ten coitions. By following this program, a man was said to enjoy radiant health, long life and inner peace. Other suggestions were that seasonal variations were important and should be honored. For example, in the Spring a maximum frequency of ejaculation could be enjoyed, whereas in the Winter, especially when it is very cold, a man should conserve his energy. There is not much written about "self-pleasuring" in regards to these teachings, but as far as I can see, there is no difference, as you are simply consorting with the life force itself. In other words, the guidelines about frequency of ejaculation and "conserving the seed" would remain the same. In Taoism, it was common knowledge that by placing a woman’s pleasure ahead of the man’s own, great marital bliss and harmony was achieved. According to Eastern philosophy, woman is seen as being high in inexhaustible yin or water energy and can be likened to a pot of water, slow to bring to a boil, whereas the man, being high in exhaustible yang or fire energy, flares up immediately. So, in Taoist lovemaking, the man is careful to monitor himself, helping his partner become aroused and going slowly himself, matching his energy to that of his lover, so that they can both come to a boil together. So, instead of seeing lovemaking as an event with ejaculatory orgasm as the primary event, lovemaking is conceived of as a goalless and joyful event, lasting much longer in duration than before. The astute man learns to know where his "point of no return" is and to stay well below that point while pleasing the woman. With this style of lovemaking, males often experience streams of full-body orgasmic sensations, which are just as pleasurable and much longer-lasting than ejaculation. So, he can increase his life force and vital energy a great deal by abstaining from actual ejaculation on a regular basis. He can also pick and choose wisely when and how often to actually ejaculate. Thus, he avoids the pronounced feelings of tiredness caused by the sudden loss of semen (yang energy) from the body, resulting in a sudden yin condition. By the way, these teachings point to an excellent method of building up the fertility levels in the man when he is desiring to optimally impregnate his partner. By saving his ejaculation until the exact time of ovulation in the female partner, a vigorous and healthy child with a strong immune system will be produced. Also, in ancient China, lovemaking was seen as one of the most powerful medicines that one could take. In fact, by studying ancient Chinese medical manuscripts, it is clear that couples would often be instructed to have sex in specific manners or positions for specific ailments as a primary form of treatment. In conclusion, I want to emphasize that according to many authorities, there is nothing wrong with going for a full release, at times. In fact, if a man has been having a series of especially intense lovemaking sessions or he has been "on the verge" for a prolonged period of time, according to Western medicine, it is probably wise to proceed to full ejaculation, in order to reduce the potential of swelling in the prostate gland. Keep in mind, however, that BPH or long-term benign prostatic hypertrophy, is often caused by a chronic deficiency in zinc. This is because, in the male, much of the body’s zinc is stored in the prostate gland.  So, if a man ejaculates more frequently than he can take in and assimilate food sources of zinc from his environment, the prostate gland will respond by growing larger, i.e. hypertrophy, in its’ attempt to compensate for the deficiency. This is similar to what the heart muscle does when it is deprived of a full supply of oxygen over time.

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Within each ejaculate is a wealth of vital nutrients and life force energy.

"Life force energy," eh?  How much is there, and what units do you measure it in, anyway?  As for the "wealth" of nutrients, you’re not going to get a wealth of anything out of a teaspoon (or less) of ejaculate.  It’s only what, 10 calories, and although it contains traces of all kinds of stuff, we’re not talking health food here. [snip] So, in the ancient Chinese Taoist tradition it was believed that men who ejaculated more frequently than their age and overall state of health allowed, would actually age faster. So, various practices were developed, all with the goal of "conserving the seed," yet not necessarily at the expense of sexual pleasure. The writings of Tantra Yoga from India also echo these ideas and teachings.

Some of them promoted "retrograde ejaculation" in which the ejaculate goes into the bladder rather than out the urethra.  BFD, since the next time the man urinates, out goes the ejaculate!  Certainly there were Taoist sects that believed this "conservation," but others did not. Shucks, don’t let me stop you, but it’s not a universal Taoist belief that you have to make love in a certain way. Keep in mind, however, that BPH or long-term benign prostatic hypertrophy, is often caused by a chronic deficiency in zinc.

Nobody knows whether this is true.  The strongest known association with BPH and diet is total fat intake.  There are several other nutrients that may be involved.   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants                   were standing on my shoulders."

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Within each ejaculate is a wealth of vital nutrients and life force energy. "Life force energy," eh?  How much is there, and what units do you measure it in, anyway?  As for the "wealth" of nutrients, you’re not going to get a wealth of anything out of a teaspoon (or less) of ejaculate.  It’s only what, 10 calories, and although it contains traces of all kinds of stuff, we’re not talking health food here.

[snip]

Or gulp. What did I ever do for entertainment before I came here?? Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -So, in the ancient Chinese Taoist tradition it was believed that men who ejaculated more frequently than their age and overall state of health allowed, would actually age faster. So, various practices were developed, all with the goal of "conserving the seed," yet not necessarily at the expense of sexual pleasure. The writings of Tantra Yoga from India also echo these ideas and teachings. Some of them promoted "retrograde ejaculation" in which the ejaculate goes into the bladder rather than out the urethra.  BFD, since the next time the man urinates, out goes the ejaculate!  Certainly there were Taoist sects that believed this "conservation," but others did not. Shucks, don’t let me stop you, but it’s not a universal Taoist belief that you have to make love in a certain way. Keep in mind, however, that BPH or long-term benign prostatic hypertrophy, is often caused by a chronic deficiency in zinc. Nobody knows whether this is true.  The strongest known association with BPH and diet is total fat intake.  There are several other nutrients that may be involved.  – David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone     These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.       "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants                  were standing on my shoulders."

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Question:

Inlight you dont change!!! Of course anyone with just bit knowledge of world religions and their spiritual disciplines/practices, knows that the many aspects of Yoga constitute the religion of Sanatan Dharma a.k.a. Hinduism. Hinduism is a great religion among many great religions. Of course, anyone can become a Hindu which would be the first step before ever entertaining the idea of teaching any aspect of Yoga/Hinduism.

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Inlight you are right about it. A real yogi knows there’s no difference in the virtual karma field. So any religion is a form of yoga

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The words "Hindu" or "Hinduism" don’t appear anywhere in Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras! Yoga is NOT a religion. It is a goal, it is the path to attain that goal, it is a philosophy, it is a way of life– all that but NOT a religion, Hinduism or any other religion for that matter.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Yoga=Hinduism Of course anyone with just bit knowledge of world religions and their spiritual disciplines/practices, knows that the many aspects of Yoga constitute the religion of Sanatan Dharma a.k.a. Hinduism. Hinduism is a great religion among many great religions. Of course, anyone can become a Hindu which would be the first step before ever entertaining the idea of teaching any aspect of Yoga/Hinduism. REALLY???? I learned the many aspects of yoga in India.  My teacher was formerly a Hindu; He gave up Hinduism upon taking up the spiritual disciplines of Yoga. Both he and his Teacher had more than a little knowledge of the worlds’ religions. Both he and his Teacher were very clear on the point that YOGA IS NOT HINDUISM.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Yoga=Hinduism Of course anyone with just bit knowledge of world religions and their spiritual disciplines/practices, knows that the many aspects of Yoga constitute the religion of Sanatan Dharma a.k.a. Hinduism. Hinduism is a great religion among many great religions. Of course, anyone can become a Hindu which would be the first step before ever entertaining the idea of teaching any aspect of Yoga/Hinduism. REALLY???? I learned the many aspects of yoga in India.  My teacher was formerly a Hindu; He gave up Hinduism upon taking up the spiritual disciplines of Yoga. Both he and his Teacher had more than a little knowledge of the worlds’ religions. Both he and his Teacher were very clear on the point that YOGA IS NOT HINDUISM.

Save your energy. "inlight" is playing this same record over and over again…

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 Yoga=Hinduism Of course anyone with just bit knowledge of world religions and their spiritual disciplines/practices, knows that the many aspects of Yoga constitute the religion of Sanatan Dharma a.k.a. Hinduism. Hinduism is a great religion among many great religions. Of course, anyone can become a Hindu which would be the first step before ever entertaining the idea of teaching any aspect of Yoga/Hinduism.

REALLY???? I learned the many aspects of yoga in India.  My teacher was formerly a Hindu; He gave up Hinduism upon taking up the spiritual disciplines of Yoga. Both he and his Teacher had more than a little knowledge of the worlds’ religions. Both he and his Teacher were very clear on the point that YOGA IS NOT HINDUISM.

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Of course anyone with just bit knowledge of world religions and their spiritual disciplines/practices, knows that the many aspects of Yoga constitute the religion of Sanatan Dharma a.k.a. Hinduism. Hinduism is a great religion among many great religions. Of course, anyone can become a Hindu which would be the first step before ever entertaining the idea of teaching any aspect of Yoga/Hinduism.

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Question:

here’s the reference for genetic research supporting the invasion theory. http://dalitstan.org/holocaust/invasion/histgene.html just a question, If the Vedas and Hinduism originated on the subcontinent, why would those people,(ie the untouchables and tribal people, who today are considered genetically most like the original austric/asian inhabitants ) be at the very bottom of the social heirarchy?

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Thanks. But today as myee had written earlier DNA analysis have clearly established that the Upper Caste Of Todays Hindu Society, are descendants of the European Clan. Moreover at the outset look at Mr Paul writing is based on a single assumption that the RIG VEDA was written after the advent of the Aryans race in India. If suppose Rig Veda and other Vedic Scriptures are Transliterated versions of the original Vedas for the benefit of the nomadic tribes of Aryans to adopt to the culture prevalent then it means that the entire theory of Paul does not holds good. Since Linguistically their are enough and more proofs that the Language Sanskrit itself is a Transliteration of the TAMIL. However, thanks for your Reference shall examine Paul theory more elaborately and come back with specifics Paddy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – population.  and also that the original indus valley population was much more advanced than the warring aryans. and the spread of the indo-aryan culture brought with it the spread of the original hindu religion and the idea that light skin was better than dark skin — because the conquering aryans were of course lighter skinned than the original goddess worshipping peoples in the valley.  and thus originated the caste system. Some of you may be interested in reading "A new look at Vedic India" by Paul Kekai Manansala (http://www.jps.net/kabalen/vedicindia.html).

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population.  and also that the original indus valley population was much more advanced than the warring aryans. and the spread of the indo-aryan culture brought with it the spread of the original hindu religion and the idea that light skin was better than dark skin — because the conquering aryans were of course lighter skinned than the original goddess worshipping peoples in the valley.  and thus originated the caste system.

Some of you may be interested in reading "A new look at Vedic India" by Paul Kekai Manansala (http://www.jps.net/kabalen/vedicindia.html).

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My apologies. If I offended anyone. A friend of mine who travels to the Pacifc ( frequently) rim & inward stated to me ….after I stated *oriental meaning at that time *chinese* person on my  part…said to me *to be potically correct* you cal them asians. Well,  Indian Asians?  Indian American?  Indian Canadians? Since  iI believe I have two  posts from India….decent…..what would be the proper term? India from Asia Well???? Ps: India is part of Asia -;) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Forget about threads To be poltically correct. A person who  is born in  India? An Asian… Indian Asian? Hmmmmm… Hmmmm …. Like a northamerican Unitedstateler?  ;-) In German an asian indian is an "Inder" and an north- (or middle- or south-)american indian is an "Indianer". Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh It is of immense importance to learn to laugh at ourselves. –Katherine Mansfield//////Question of the day. Okaaaa….? Indeed ! Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused. Source unknown

– It is of immense importance to learn to laugh at ourselves. –Katherine Mansfield//////Question of the day. Before you buy.

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Myee, On Detailed Research we Find that Induism ( the unadulterated version) clearly defines that Sivam has the philosophy  and Siva as a Person who has attained a Mental/divine status. Simplyfing it in logical sense The person who knows the science of joining the Uyir( Life ) + Body is called a Brahma The person who knows the science of retaining it together is called the Vishnu The person who knows the science of seperating it is called the Siva. Their are more than N number of scripts which state that their exists thousands of Siva’s. That is why their exists various Myths that looks contradictory at the outset Myth  1 – Siva had banished his wife, Myth 2  - Siva gives a part of his body to his wife and attain a androgynous form Myth 3  - Siva returns without marrying a person. etc. With the above analogy that their could exist different Siva during different periods of time and space the above myths would indicate the stories of various Persons who attained the status of Siva The Same being the case with Vishnu and Brahma. However Induism talks in detail about a person called  ADHI SIVANNAR who is supposed to be the person who preached Induism in this Earth.He is attributes, characteristic, etc are being talked by various saints in detail. What has happened many a many lay person who have not carefully read get confused with the various stories & with the Philosophy of  SIVAM. Trust this clarifies your Queries. For your Reference attached the site address of the seal of Siva found in Indus valley which will be further use http://www.harappa.com/indus/33.html Paddy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – dear paddy, and in view of the fact that the original indus valley population widely worshipped the goddess — have you come accross the idea that Shiva was originally depicted in female form.  and that she did not take on her androgynous form – with one female breast and one male breast – or become depicted as male until the warring aryans needed to control and suppress the population.  and also that the original indus valley population was much more advanced than the warring aryans. and the spread of the indo-aryan culture brought with it the spread of the original hindu religion and the idea that light skin was better than dark skin — because the conquering aryans were of course lighter skinned than the original goddess worshipping peoples in the valley.  and thus originated the caste system. thanks for your very interesting posts. myee

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Forget about threads To be poltically correct. A person who  is born in  India? An Asian… Indian Asian? Hmmmmm…

Hmmmm …. Like a northamerican Unitedstateler?  ;-) In German an asian indian is an "Inder" and an north- (or middle- or south-)american indian is an "Indianer". Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh It is of immense importance to learn to laugh at ourselves. –Katherine Mansfield//////Question of the day. Okaaaa….?

Indeed ! Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused. Source unknown

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Unlike many of the ancient Civilization totally buried under the earth, the remanants of the Old Induism still prevails. Though the Aryan Invasion had overcome most of the Northern India they had not entered the Southern India till nearly 2000 years back. The then  ruler Arya Padai Kadantha Neducezhian (as the name signifies – Ran over the Arya Army) after wining over them brought them in tribes and settled them in distinct localities in the southern India nearly 2000 years back. Thereafter the Siddhar Induism which survived down in the South started getting adulterated. However in the LONG HISTORY of Earth, this decimation is not old enough to loose the Originality we still find the luminence of the Old Induism in the Siddhar Songs ( sung during the last few thousands of years) in various Historical epics of Kannagi, Manimekalai, Thirumular’s Tamil Grammer, and various Temple Carvings, Inscriptions, Literatures. A careful study needs to be undertaken to identify & remove the insertions taken place in these original scripture to ensure the Superamacy of the Aryan Race. However Luckily most due to revival of the Chola kingdom most of the True Classic works illustrating the true tradition had been preserved. Though I have yet to come across a site which truly reflects these concepts, if you are a tamil scholar you can read ( yes with difficulty) to enjoy the Philosophy of the Induism. If not keep shooting your questions to me to answer your various queries which will give you some light on the Philosophy of Induism. Good Luck !! Paddu – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Padhu, is there readily available information on Induism, Indu valley religion prior to Aryan (Hindu) influences, that you mention? where? Hbta You are right- for your Information, History states that in the Indus Valley Civilization, which has clearly been establised that Shiva Idols were Found. From our Detailed lingustic research and infact most of the world renowned schools of Linguistic people believe the language Sanskrit itself could be a transliterated version of TAMIL. Their exist a version that Sanskrit is SAMIYUD VAYANKA PATTA KRITHAM meaning Transliterated Script. Moreover we researcher to differentiate, Identify between the two religion call one the Induism that is prior to the one before the Aryans and one Hinduism which is a Corrupted form of the Induism with additions for myths, illusionary facts. In Induism their exist no castesim, it is a philosophy preaching Equal oppurtunities, equal rights to all. If you look a step further the so call divinators ( if you are aware of 63 Nayanmars,(sacred shiva devotees) 12 Azzhavars (vishnu Devotees)) who in fact have done many a miracles similar to Jesus Christ, and infact worshipped till today by one and all, and more infact their idols are placed in all temples have never even talked about Santanu Dharma, Caste division. Moreover it is also a fact that all of them have done their prayer, sung their songs, etc only doing in TAMIL. Hence Inlight argument has always been like a old gramphone Record talking on Sanatanu Dharma, Sanskrit which has no relevance. Their are scriptures seen by us written by few of the great Saints, Called Siddhars which says Sanskrit has been banished in the Divine world. Regards Paddy

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Forget about threads To be poltically correct. A person who  is born in  India? An Asian… Indian Asian? Hmmmmm… It is of immense importance to learn to laugh at ourselves. –Katherine Mansfield//////Question of the day. Okaaaa….? Before you buy.

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Re: The Yoga Conquistadors Forget about threads To be poltically correct. A person who  is born in  India? An Asian… Indian Asian? Hmmmmm…

and when that person seeks to travel outside of India, what type of passport will they apply for, and Asian passport? and where will they apply for it? the capital of Asia? And what government will issue it? the government of Asia?

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Hi Padhu, is there readily available information on Induism, Indu valley religion prior to Aryan (Hindu) influences, that you mention? where? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hbta You are right- for your Information, History states that in the Indus Valley Civilization, which has clearly been establised that Shiva Idols were Found. From our Detailed lingustic research and infact most of the world renowned schools of Linguistic people believe the language Sanskrit itself could be a transliterated version of TAMIL. Their exist a version that Sanskrit is SAMIYUD VAYANKA PATTA KRITHAM meaning Transliterated Script. Moreover we researcher to differentiate, Identify between the two religion call one the Induism that is prior to the one before the Aryans and one Hinduism which is a Corrupted form of the Induism with additions for myths, illusionary facts. In Induism their exist no castesim, it is a philosophy preaching Equal oppurtunities, equal rights to all. If you look a step further the so call divinators ( if you are aware of 63 Nayanmars,(sacred shiva devotees) 12 Azzhavars (vishnu Devotees)) who in fact have done many a miracles similar to Jesus Christ, and infact worshipped till today by one and all, and more infact their idols are placed in all temples have never even talked about Santanu Dharma, Caste division. Moreover it is also a fact that all of them have done their prayer, sung their songs, etc only doing in TAMIL. Hence Inlight argument has always been like a old gramphone Record talking on Sanatanu Dharma, Sanskrit which has no relevance. Their are scriptures seen by us written by few of the great Saints, Called Siddhars which says Sanskrit has been banished in the Divine world. Regards Paddy

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Trancended

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Just for you, inligh1ment genetic research and the "Hindu" conquistadors http://dalitstan.org/holocaust/invasion/histgene.html

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Hbta You are right- for your Information, History states that in the Indus Valley Civilization, which has clearly been establised that Shiva Idols were Found. From our Detailed lingustic research and infact most of the world renowned schools of Linguistic people believe the language Sanskrit itself could be a transliterated version of TAMIL. Their exist a version that Sanskrit is SAMIYUD VAYANKA PATTA KRITHAM meaning Transliterated Script. Moreover we researcher to differentiate, Identify between the two religion call one the Induism that is prior to the one before the Aryans and one Hinduism which is a Corrupted form of the Induism with additions for myths, illusionary facts. In Induism their exist no castesim, it is a philosophy preaching Equal oppurtunities, equal rights to all. If you look a step further the so call divinators ( if you are aware of 63 Nayanmars,(sacred shiva devotees) 12 Azzhavars (vishnu Devotees)) who in fact have done many a miracles similar to Jesus Christ, and infact worshipped till today by one and all, and more infact their idols are placed in all temples have never even talked about Santanu Dharma, Caste division. Moreover it is also a fact that all of them have done their prayer, sung their songs, etc only doing in TAMIL. Hence Inlight argument has always been like a old gramphone Record talking on Sanatanu Dharma, Sanskrit which has no relevance. Their are scriptures seen by us written by few of the great Saints, Called Siddhars which says Sanskrit has been banished in the Divine world. Regards Paddy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes:  I learned the eight-fold disciplines of yoga in India,  from an Indian.  He  and  his Teacher before him were very clear on the point that Yoga IS NOT  Hinduism. Inlight1 repliesLOL An Indian? This is riot.  Yes, Indian.  As in, one who is born in India is called an Indian, one who is born in Italy is called an Italian, one who is born in Autrailia is called an Australian, one who is born in Canada is called a Canadian.  What is so funny? Where is the riot? Interesting how you do not, or more likely cannot, address the issues raised; how instead you snip them from your reply without indication that they have been snipped: and can only resort to cynicism, sarcasm, attempts at belittlement. Here is the body of my post, unsnipped.  I learned the eight-fold disciplines of yoga in India,  from an Indian.  He and his Teacher before him were very clear on the point that Yoga IS NOT Hinduism. For example, Yoga and the castism embraced by Hinduism are irreconcilable. They were also very clear on the point that Yoga existed in India prior to Hinduism, and that the eary Hindus were the ‘conquistadors’ who took the existing practices of yoga to suit their purposes. and in case you missed it:Yoga and the castism embraced by Hinduism are irreconcilable. They were also very clear on the point that Yoga existed in India prior to Hinduism, and that the eary Hindus were the ‘conquistadors’ who took the existing practices of yoga to suit their purposes.

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For high blood pressure B.K.Iyengar suggests following asanas: halasana,janu-sirsana ,ardha baddha padma paschimottanasana,triang mukhaikapada paschimottanasana,virasana,siddhasana,padmasana,savasana, as to the prayanama,nadi sodhana without retention,ujjayi, Try them and see if really it is helpfull. Kindest regards, * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I learned the eight-fold disciplines of yoga in India,  from an Indian. He  and  his Teacher before him were very clear on the point that Yoga IS NOT  Hinduism. Inlight1 repliesLOL An Indian? This is riot.  Yes, Indian.  As in, one who is born in India is called an Indian, one who is born in Italy is called an Italian, one who is born in Autrailia is called an Australian, one who is born in Canada is called a Canadian.  What is so funny? Where is the riot?

Only in his head… his method is to quit when the questions become too difficult to answer… But everybody is entitled to his/her opininions…

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Would appreciate some info about some good and simple asanas for reducing hypertension. (No need mentioning diets) Thanks in advance, MCH

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I learned the eight-fold disciplines of yoga in India,  from an Indian.  He and his Teacher before him were very clear on the point that Yoga IS NOT Hinduism.

LOL An Indian? This is riot.

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 I learned the eight-fold disciplines of yoga in India,  from an Indian.  He  and  his Teacher before him were very clear on the point that Yoga IS NOT  Hinduism. Inlight1 repliesLOL An Indian? This is riot.

 Yes, Indian.  As in, one who is born in India is called an Indian, one who is born in Italy is called an Italian, one who is born in Autrailia is called an Australian, one who is born in Canada is called a Canadian.  What is so funny? Where is the riot? Interesting how you do not, or more likely cannot, address the issues raised; how instead you snip them from your reply without indication that they have been snipped: and can only resort to cynicism, sarcasm, attempts at belittlement.   Here is the body of my post, unsnipped.    I learned the eight-fold disciplines of yoga in India,  from an Indian.  He and his Teacher before him were very clear on the point that Yoga IS NOT Hinduism. For example, Yoga and the castism embraced by Hinduism are irreconcilable. They were also very clear on the point that Yoga existed in India prior to Hinduism, and that the eary Hindus were the ‘conquistadors’ who took the existing practices of yoga to suit their purposes. and in case you missed it:Yoga and the castism embraced by Hinduism are irreconcilable. They were also very clear on the point that Yoga existed in India prior to Hinduism, and that the eary Hindus were the ‘conquistadors’ who took the existing practices of yoga to suit their purposes.

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Greetings Inlight, I hope your not upset with me because i have done and taken yoga for its vocabulary its wonderful vocabulary to list every aspect of all the experiences that psychology and science claim might not exist and will probably never laboratory standardize. Yoga the art/science that fits today as yesterday but the religious mystery well that’s interesting but never seems to be more than puzzles. Oddities to compare to the reference material…….and indo-china it is. Yet things like scientology or urantia or voodoo are almost worthless because they omit the essentials that every religion finds in yoga. You of course don’t know christianity but i do know that mystery and it might as well be dharmist also it also is yoga re-done. The reference material it seems to me. The owners manual. I don’t even think you should change your hardline position cause you or i both could dissect every story into its representative piece of the experience along with the theory. So they all held hands yet few see the truth of either as  monkies out on  limbs seeing the other side of the forest that the other cant see. Plus its mans oldest first the newer just that (experience to story fabric) . Its not fair to say because we cant understand its not right just as soon as someone comes along does a siddha (successfulness) or enters samadhi (nimbus/halo) or throws a t-bolt (para sound/aspect) he is faced with brahma, rudra, thor and zesus or more after enough research new has become old very old and realized entirely. Its comparative that’s gives solutions to complexity. Ma, olympus, virgin mary, ufo, there all dharmist extended works separated by time culture simply cause it came from there that part of the world so long ago. Oh theres been ups downs arguments but an experience leads to story fabric one goes to the source the source remains indo-china. When man walked across the bearing straights into the america’s he brought with him the old world and yoga flourished here far before the conquista’s. The pyramids are again in central america the calendar its 18 spokes/points ma again the 18 swami muktiananda and i agree about  (52 year cycles) between two wheels sun/moon. Yet those stories of siva shakti are not here but the yoga was. No columbus discovered nothing. But to believe is just that and if you ask me to believe i am sorry i must experience than i believe. Now politics and beliefs well you’ll find as hard a line stance from everyone as yours cause they also have it in their stories. But myself it is the finest vocabulary available yoga terminology that was. Well everyone’s puzzles are ok also. Its a big old world lots of experiences only one yoga comming from indo-china starting right along side by side dharmist so theres new chapters big deal as its like some forgot to read all the other chapters of the same puzzle book (religions all as one long book). Like charles darwin’s birds and their markings features traits appearences all starting the same bird now via natural selection having new markings traits hence is yoga the birds the religions . Buddha a reformed dharmist change is certain except what was locked in time is now history inlight that wont change. But the principle of change with the karmas vittris samskara will allow change. Both physical and superphysical so one should be flexiable respect history yet allow only the experience as the belief. swami muktianada did samadhi was black a negro its impossible that his soul or anytwo or alike exactly yet very simular according to structure so we see already why the 18 were counted again and along with ever other feature will always be compared for aspects of change. You get the picture don’t you. To insist yoga is dharmist we simply open the aztec calendar well they are only seperated by history as natural selection is the media. They were done in by reformed jews the indo-china hellenistic new movement from greece and under rome so what it was simply money greed power corruption not the mystery or the deed but who is really to blame simply the JUNGLE the trained tamed believing this or thatists against the other this or thatists both the same just different mysteries story fabric’s of course. So yoga eliminates something for some aye. JD

Response:

wrote Similar to the egotistical Conquistadors (and other arrogant invaders) who just took and re-defined to suit their ego-manical whims, yoga today has been completely perverted by those selfish individuals who have completely misdefined what is yoga. These are the spiritual/religious disciplines of Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism), taught free of charge by qualified Sanatanists (Hindus). Anything else is utter nonsense.

That is really interesting.( NOT ! )   I learned the eight-fold disciplines of yoga in India,  from an Indian.  He and his Teacher before him were very clear on the point that Yoga IS NOT Hinduism. For example, Yoga and the castism embraced by Hinduism are irreconcilable. They were also very clear on the point that Yoga existed in India prior to Hinduism, and that the eary Hindus were the ‘conquistadors’ who took the existing practices of yoga to suit their purposes.

Response:

Similar to the egotistical Conquistadors (and other arrogant invaders) who just took and re-defined to suit their ego-manical whims, yoga today has been completely perverted by those selfish individuals who have completely misdefined what is yoga. These are the spiritual/religious disciplines of Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism), taught free of charge by qualified Sanatanists (Hindus). Anything else is utter nonsense.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i was not trying to correct you.  i was merely stating my opinion about religion.  and it is as truthful and as valid as anybody elses.  you appear to be quite a name caller. myee     Why do you think i need or want your help?  do you think yourself superior to me?  why is that?  religion is bigotry is war.  that is what it is.  it is a foolish attempt by the logical mind to define what can not be defined.  you must be male.  you judge.  you belittle.  and you attempt to control.  these are all the workings of religion.     myee     understand that, then I don’t think I can help you! I do not presume to think you would want my help, but remember – you responded to my post – thinking you should correct me. I simply responded. If you allow your rational mind to take over, you will see that "bigoted religion" is "bigotry" is war, while "unbigoted religion" makes "peace within" which helps us transcend! You are mistaken to automatically equate all religion with bigotry. You are also mistaken when you judge and belittle the entire male gender. The words I spoke are truth, whether you consider their origin as religion, personal reflection, or whatever. You obviously have an axe to grind, and it obviously did not originate with me. You seem like a stalker to me… Habib

Yes, you were trying to correct me. Also you made many statements in that post that were rife with the "judgementalism" you later accused me of. I know that I’m not the only one who’s seen this. You seem to be acting on serious gender issues. I have news for you. I don’t represent the entire male gender – you can’t try to make me answer for all the faults you think you see in men. It’s kind of interesting now that in another post you say: "please forgive myee in her female incarnation for being a woman.  that’s o.k. too." Consider the distinct possibility that in light of your earlier generalizations about males, that to now say such a thing borders on hypocrisy. The truth bears witness of itself. Habib

Response:

i see.  so — if i do not express myself the way that you want me to – then i must be lacking in spirituality. myee

It’s your choice to express it that way, but really it has little to do with personal bias on my part. There simply are accepted norms concerning what is balanced and respectful in communication. The only thing I "expect" from you is that you at least express yourself in a respectful way. Yet I have not seen you expressing yourself in a way that is respectful of other’s energy or boundaries. If you cross lines you don’t really have any business crossing, then by all means I will call you on it – as I have the right to maintain what I consider appropriate boundaries concerning what type of communication I will accept from individuals. You should know this – it’s very basic stuff. You’re not going to try to fight with each & every individual who might try to point out something to you, concerning your behavior, are you? At some point it may be wise, if not for the rest of us, but for your own peace of mind, to stop dissipating your energy in this way. It’s a pointless struggle that is accomplishing nothing. The truth bears witness of itself. Habib

Response:

Dear myee, when I Read Your Reply I could Absolutely Smell Incense Burning. Are You Burning Incense?…DSW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and bear the bigotry of the religionists who think that they know the way. or know better than me. Now, that have been their biggest mistake, hm? ) — Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh It is because of our attachment to things that we suffer. By letting go we find that we have not lost anything except our attachment. Sogyal Rinpoche

Hari Har Singh: Thanks for the added balance – I am fairly new to this newsgroup, but I like many of your posts. You have a regular habit of bringing valuable insight to the various threads here. Habib

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you must be male. yes you judge. yes you belittle. yes and you attempt to control. alas, a failed attem– oh SH*T you weren’t talking to me

Habib

Response:

and bear the bigotry of the religionists who think that they know the way. or know better than me. Now, that have been their biggest mistake, hm? )

(:-)  I suspect you nailed it! [But in general I wouldn't argue with such an "entrenched" individual - why waste energy?  "You CAN lead an ass to water but you can't make 'er drink..."] — Regards, Uri <Disclaimer

Response:

and bear the bigotry of the religionists who think that they know the way. or know better than me.

Now, that have been their biggest mistake, hm? ) — Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh It is because of our attachment to things that we suffer. By letting go we find that we have not lost anything except our attachment. Sogyal Rinpoche

Response:

    Why do you think i need or want your help?  do you think yourself superior to me?  why is that? religion is bigotry is war.

Judging? that is what it is.

Judging! it is a foolish attempt by the logical mind to define what can not be defined.

There is nothing more illogical than religion, hm? They belief in things non-visible like God, love, etc. ! you must be male.  you judge.  you belittle.  and you attempt to control.

I, as a male, don’t feel well described. But I see and feel a lot of judging and an attempt to belittle in this narrow minded description of yours.  these are all the workings of religion.

Indeed they are. But they are and have not been the only ones.     myee

– Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh

Response:

you must be male.  

yes you judge.  

yes you belittle.  

yes and you attempt to control.

alas, a failed attem– oh SH*T you weren’t talking to me

Response:

    Why do you think i need or want your help?  do you think yourself superior to me?  why is that?  religion is bigotry is war.  that is what it is.  it is a foolish attempt by the logical mind to define what can not be defined.  you must be male.  you judge.  you belittle.  and you attempt to control.  these are all the workings of religion.     myee     understand that, then I don’t think I can help you!

I do not presume to think you would want my help, but remember – you responded to my post – thinking you should correct me. I simply responded. If you allow your rational mind to take over, you will see that "bigoted religion" is "bigotry" is war, while "unbigoted religion" makes "peace within" which helps us transcend! You are mistaken to automatically equate all religion with bigotry. You are also mistaken when you judge and belittle the entire male gender. The words I spoke are truth, whether you consider their origin as religion, personal reflection, or whatever. You obviously have an axe to grind, and it obviously did not originate with me. You seem like a stalker to me… Habib

Response:

Dear Sahaj Yogi, I appreciate Your Comments and I have Love In My Heart For You… I believe we are in Absolute Agreement about this Religion Matter. It seems to Me that Religion is a Wonderful Thing until Someone starts writing It down in A Book and then They start Discussing It Instead of Really Living It!…DSW

Response:

Dear Sahaj Yogi, I appreciate Your Comments and I have Love In My Heart For You… I believe we are in Absolute Agreement about this Religion Matter. It seems to Me that Religion is a Wonderful Thing until Someone starts writing It down in A Book and then They start Discussing It Instead of Really Living It!…DSW

I think if one reflects deeply one will find that Yoga both is and is not a religion. As "yoga" per se, it originated within Vedic Religious traditions, and it most certainly has the same ultimate goal as religions (in their more esoteric manifestations). Real yoga, as opposed to mere hatha yoga exercises taken outside their real context as part of the 8 limbs of yoga, truly evokes religious sentiments and experiences. I think you could even say that yoga is the essence of religion, as are all mystical paths that evolve to a point where they begin to converge in the same ocean of universal mystical experience. On the other hand, yoga, like other mystical paths (which can also be called yogas in their own right) which come to this deeper understanding which transcends sectarianism, transcends "exoteric" differences between the religions, and partakes deeply of a scientific spiritual method which "exoteric religion" normally does not provide. It can be said that yoga points to an experience that transcends divisions and differences between various religions. In this sense it can be said that yoga is not a religion (maybe it is simply not "exoteric, sectarian religion"). Again, I think if one will reflect deeply one will see that when one person says yoga is not a religion, and when another says that it is  (maybe not "a" religion) religion, in a very real sense, both are right. I feel I must both honor the traditions which formulated this pure incarnation of the eternal religion, and at the same time try to see beyond the seeming appearances it is trying to point out.. Just as many know that the word yoga means union, if you delve into the latin roots of the word religion (re-ligare), you will find the meaning is the same. What does everyone else think about this? Is anyone ready to let go of the need to fight for their personal bias, and simply be a yogi ? (BE is the keyword) I believe that even anandamayakosha is to be transcended, no matter how essential to our existence it may at times seem. Habib

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     and while i am on the subject – who do you think you are to tell me whether or not i understand yoga?  i have practiced yoga probably for more years than you have walked the planet.  i have lived it,  in its truest sense.  i have read the entire bible.  i have read patanjali, svatmarama, milarepi, paramahansa, osho, rumi, bhajan, bhagavad ghita, merlin stone, dalai lama, to name a few.  and i don’t pretend to know what god is.  or to use my foolish intellect to define what i have experienced.  i have studied christianity, judaism, hinduism, seikism, mithraism, zoroastrianism, bhuddism, and the oldest religion on the planet — goddess worship — just to name a few.  and what i have learned is that every human on the planet is a unique and magnificent manifestion of the divine inspite of what their religion has degraded and defined them as.  and that no religion even comes close to replacing what a living being already is – if we can but accept ourselves.  i accept the good the bad and the ugly as a creation of the human mind.  i never seek to force my opinion on any other being.  but i reserve the right to state my opinion in any way i chose.  and bear the bigotry of the religionists who think that they know the way.  or know better than me.  or have an answer to anything.     myee the moth who choses to be indignant

No matter how many religions you have studied, it makes no difference if by the way you express yourself, you show that their most important tenets have not penetrated into your heart. You must live them, rather than blaming the world for your troubles. Be a yogi. I have made no presumption by speaking truth. I see that you have too much anger to hear any of what I had to say. Your ego careens wildly all over the place. I simply repeat what I have learned & know to be true. There is not a religion you mentioned studying that I have not studied, and yet I did not feel that I needed to brag about it, to show that I was superior. In fact, if yoga (and life) has taught me one thing, it is that I am not superior to anyone. By the way, do you know how old I am? The truth bears witness of itself. Habib

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – o.k., o.k.,  why do you think that yoga has the same ultimate goal as religion?  This is an interesting idea.  Religion seeks to control the many by empowering the few.  It sinks to the lowest level of the mayas as it becomes institutionalized.  Religion usually seeks to control the sexuality of the human population by shaming the female.  Make her feel guilty.  Make her have to answer to god.  Make the human couple have to undergo religious ritual to cohabitate.  Obey our rules or you will be condemned whether it be to hell or limbo or rebirth as a cockroach.  It is always about the blame, shame, guilt game.  And so it goes.  It’s always about this.  Call it transcendence from the physical.  Call it giving up the mayas so that the "blameless bride" can marry the "lord husband".  Call it purity.  But please do not call it yoga.  Because yoga will reinstate you to yourself.  And heal your sexuality as it cleanses away the lies of the institutionalized religious hierarchy.  Yoga will deliver you to yourself.  Whatever that is. So — want to talk about mystical experiences?  So this yogi person reverses the energy from the lower triangle and drives the energy up the spine and unites the ida and the pingala and passes through the anahata chakra of compassion and doesn’t get lost in the naad – or the coldness of the sixth chakra and turns the attention up to contemplate the sahasrara and activates the upturned lotus and transcends even this limitation and all of the glands secrete and create a euphoric – blissful – ecstatic state – and the subconscious mind depicts the universe as it really is to the conscious mind — as best it can.  So this yogi person decides to "share".  And then low and behold these others have raised up a shrine to the vision or the state or the ecstasy.  All because this poor yogi keeps on keepin on and changes all of the energy in his or her body and raises the vibration up to a level way above what is normally perceived as human.  So now this poor yogi starts to do stuff.  Like heal him or herself.  And heal others.  And talk about weird stuff.  And people feel good just hangin out in the tent with this strange being.  And the yogi knows stuff, because it just flows in.  And then these others create some type of superstitious religion out of the words flowing out of this interesting being.  And because the human is totally guilt ridden and totally out of touch with what he or she really is they create the do’s and the don’ts.  And they say "god said this" and "god said that".  And thus another religion is bourne by the lazy people who don’t meditate enough to get past the sahasrara..  And it always ends up being about their sexuality because the ruling class uses their superstitious nonsense to control them. nice chatting with you the bug

Myee: Whoa! Sorry you’ve had such an experience of religion! I certainly see elements of truth scattered throughout your post, but many projected personal assumtions as well. People who lump all religion together under such a bleak umbrella, quite simply have never experienced religion beyond their limited conception of it. Do not doubt that there are others however, who have experienced religion as it was meant to be, not as the masses practice it. Again, if you really had read my post carefully, you would have realized that I never said that yoga has the same goal that many of the mainstream religionists do. Here I say "mainstream religionists", because by your negative generalizations about religion, you show that you have mentally associated the very word religion with the "worst examples" of religion (which are not religion at all, so it makes no sense to link them). I do not fall into this…rather I define religion (true religion, mind you) according to the latin phrase that gave it it’s name: it means to "bind back" or "reunite." "Yoga" means "union." Think on the definitions given here and you will see that they clearly have the same meaning. So I will re-phrase my original statement for the benefit of those who spend their time in word games rather than the study & practice of yoga: when people practice religion in it’s truest sense, as it was meant to be, then the goal they are striving for is exactly the same as what the yogis are striving for. Now if you can’t understand that, then I don’t think I can help you! The yogi thinks carefully, then chooses his words wisely. Because he practices meditation and concentration, his mind is not scattered. So he does not ramble, but says only what is necessary, and of practical need. A word to the wise: if you are worrying about the sad state of affairs you perceive around you, then you are not taking the yogic approach. The yogic approach is best summed up by the sanskrit phrase "pratipaksha bhavanam," which literally means to "raise an opposite wave." This means that if you think (whether accurately or not) that you see an undesirable condition in the world, then putting too much of your conscious attention on it, causes it to grow, rather than alleviating the problem. The higher yogic way is to instead put all your thoughts & energy into the creation of a positive, desirable condition, that is opposite to the original perceived wrong. This second wave cancels out the first wave. If you take the usual approach of the world however, just obsessing with what you think you see wrong in the world, it is like adding water to the first wave, making it grow. This practice of pratipaksha bhavanam is the most practical thing we can do. It is the only thing that really works. I recommend that you contemplate the meaning of what I have just told you. This is Jnana – make use of it. I can understand your feelings, but I’m not sure you understand what yoga is. You focus too much on details of what happens in the astral body by the practice of yoga. But this is not the goal of yoga, or even the means of yoga – it is just an "external sign" that something more important is happening within. Although you may think "how can the rising of spiritual energy be seen as external?" To that I would reply that the energy moves in response to something which is much more subtle…inner realization. Kundalini arises as a natural consequence of acquiring wisdom. So the energy itself is mere phenomena – although subtle, it is still part & parcel of prakriti – it is not the Self. If you use techniques that trigger the ascent of this force before you have mastered the yamas & niyamas, then you are in trouble. The energy will devour you instead of liberating you. If you place too much focus on "working on your chakras", you will likely become trapped in Siddhis which may arise as the kundalini reaches each chakra. The effect of this would be the exact opposite of what the true yogi is trying to achieve…you would become identified with external phenomena rather than the cause behind the phenomena. If instead you focus on God, then the process of kundalini arousal is a spontaneous & natural occurrence, which does not have to be directed by the mundane human mind. It will then occur in the safest, most effective, and best way, through surrender, rather than more control. The thought-waves arising in our mind must be controlled, but this happens not by an act of personal will, but by simply focusing awareness internally rather than externally. The rest takes care of itself, by the grace of God & guru… Peace. Habib

Response:

Dear Myya Appreciate your comments.

Dear Sahaj Yogi, For Me, it would have been alot better if You would have Just Said that Christianity is In Fact Yoga.

The above article was by Georg Feuerstein, not I. He is concrened about not ruffling any feathers or creating much controversy. That is why many of his ideas still conform to a conventional prejudice or conditioned illusion being dormant, repressed, or stifled) as they were). Yet this recent article found at www.yrec.org he "dares" to go not conform to the pundits to a greater degree than in the past (which is encouraging and I am happy for him). Christianity is a combination of Bhakti and Karma Yoga.  The facts are in.  The only people that are in Denial about this are the Christians. The fact is in the truest sense, Yoga is Not A Religion and Yet Religion can Manifest out of Yoga!…DSW

Of course all "true" religions were inspired originally by experiencers that realized the Great Integrity (Yoga), but it is curious (is it not) that all such religions then replace this more primary experience with an ersatz philosophy of ingrained separation. Jesus was a rebel, but then the Roman Catholic Church turned it into an order (witch hunts and all). Calvin and Luther were rebels, but the Protestant churches in America are the status quo. The Bal Shem Tov (founder of Hassidism) was branded a traitor and heretic, but now it claims authority and orthodoxy. Then there are the fundamentalist Hindus who live out of a book or through the dictates of an external guru. The same with has occurred in most brands of Buddhism  and this similar analysys (for give the reductionism) can apply that to any "ism". Even a discussion about the "evil" of "ismisms" would be "ism" oriented and so do you not see the similar direction between where both Feuerstein and Osho tend to point? Is this the "truth" or realization that underlies all authentic/functional yoga practice?  Yes, simply calling it yoga would suffice for me, but then ahhh all those "funny definitions" of what it is and is not! Is that where the fun begins or ends, dear one? Jai Ma!

Response:

Dear Sahaj Yogi, For Me, it would have been alot better if You would have Just Said that Christianity is In Fact Yoga. Christianity is a combination of Bhakti and Karma Yoga.  The facts are in.  The only people that are in Denial about this are the Christians. The fact is in the truest sense, Yoga is Not A Religion and Yet Religion can Manifest out of Yoga!…DSW

Response:

The following is from Georg Feuerstein founder and director of the Yoga Research and Education Center, author of 10 books on Yoga, member of the board of many national and international Yoga associations, and an internationally recognized yoga scholar. Is Yoga a Religion? By Georg Feuerstein Some Westerners who are practicing Christians or Jews are concerned about Yoga being an Eastern religion. They fear that by taking up the practice of Yoga, they might undermine their own religious faith. Are their fears warranted? Is Yoga a religion? The quick answer to both questions is: Instead of undermining their personal faith, Yoga can actually deepen it. In the following I will offer a more detailed explanation. Let me begin with the extremist position of Christian fundamentalism, which regards Yoga as a dangerous import from the East that should under all circumstances be shunned. Often Yoga is lumped together with New Age teachings, which are seen as a threat to the Christian establishment. Yoga, it is quite true, has historically been associated with India’s three great religious-cultural traditions-Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. Thus the teachings of Yoga are infused with many concepts that have a Hindu, Buddhist, or Jaina flavor. The most striking examples, which often are a stumbling block for Westerners, are the ideas of karma and reincarnation and the notion of there being many deities in addition to the one ultimate Reality. First of all, there have been Yoga masters who dismissed the ideas of karma and reincarnation, and the deities of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism can be compared to the angels of Christianity and Judaism. Thus in order to practice Yoga, you need not believe in karma or reincarnation. You need not believe in anything other than the possibility that you can transform yourself: that you can go beyond your present understanding and experience of the world and, more significantly, beyond your current egocentric state of being. At the heart of all forms of Yoga is the assumption that you have not yet tapped into your full potential as a human being. In particular, Yoga seeks to put you in touch with your spiritual core-your innermost nature-that which or who you truly are. That nature is described differently by the various schools of Yoga. Rather than being expected to believe in any of the traditional explanations, you are free to allow your personal experience and realization to shape your understanding. Over the millennia, Yoga has become associated with various philosophical and theological systems-none of which can be said to define Yoga itself. For Yoga is first and foremost a practical spiritual discipline that emphasizes personal experimentation and verification. In other words, direct personal experience or spiritual realization is considered senior to any theory or conceptual system. For this reason, Yoga can and in fact has been practiced by people with widely differing philosophies and beliefs. Some Yoga practitioners believe in a personal God who created the universe, others favor a metaphysics that regards the world as illusory and the ultimate Reality as singular and formless. Yet others (notably the yogis of Theravada Buddhism) refuse to speculate about metaphysical matters. Accordingly, some Yoga practitioners are more religious than others. But Yoga itself is simply a tool for exploring the depth of our human nature, of plumbing the mysteries of the body and the mind. How can Yoga enrich the religious or spiritual life of a practicing Christian or Jew? The answer is the same as for a practicing Hindu, Buddhist, or Jaina. Yoga aids all practicing religious, regardless of their persuasion, by balancing the nervous system and stilling the mind through its various exercises (from posture to breath control to meditation). Yoga’s heritage is comprehensive enough so that anyone can find just the right techniques that will not conflict with his or her personal beliefs. More than that, religious-minded folk will find in Yoga many ideas and sentiments, especially about moral life, with which they will easily resonate. Who could find fault, for instance, with the yogic recommendation to pursue a virtuous life dedicated to nonharming, truthfulness, compassion, charity, tolerance, and freedom from greed, anger, and jealousy, and so forth? Millions of Christians and Jews around the world are already practicing Yoga, and there even is a "Christian Yoga." Yoga-mostly a simplified version of Hatha-Yoga-is being taught at many branches of the YMCA, and various Jewish centers also offer Yoga classes. So, if you are a practicing Christian or Jew (or belong to any other religious tradition), take from Yoga what makes sense to you and deepen your own faith and spiritual practice. But keep an open mind about the experiences and insights arising from your practice of Yoga. Remember: all theories, explanations, and beliefs are merely conceptual frameworks superimposed on reality. We ought not to cling to them too tenaciously lest they should prevent us from seeing what is really the case. All the great religious traditions of the world have their spiritual explorers. Yoga is India’s gift to those wishing to become psychonauts-travelers in the inner space of consciousness. If you genuinely desire to know yourself more profoundly and make sense of the world in which you live, Yoga is a reliable, well-tested vehicle.

Question:

I’m a massage therapist student doing a paper on the connection of yoga and massage.  The benefits, complimentary aspects, etc… if anyone has input, let me know.  Thanks

Response:

I’m a massage therapist student doing a paper on the connection of yoga and massage.  The benefits, complimentary aspects, etc… if anyone has input, let me know.  Thanks

I personally don’t associate massage with yoga, but the Chinese have a system called Cultural Self-massage, which I think is practised somehow in connection with Tai Chi or acupuncture. Perhaps a search in those directions may be worth a try. Tai Chi has been described as Chinese yoga. S.

Response:

After yoga, a massage is incredibly deep because the body is wide open. I also think that yoga postures are a form of self-massage with gravity’s help.

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I also think that yoga postures are a form of self-massage with gravity’s help.

A book by Michael Reed Gach called Acu-Yoga shows all the acupressure points in relation to the yoga postures. Shanti…peace Diane http://members.aol.com/DEEPERON/Yoga.html

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I also think that yoga postures are a form of self-massage with gravity’s help. A book by Michael Reed Gach called Acu-Yoga shows all the acupressure points in relation to the yoga postures.

This book is available at Roots & Wings.  Go to http://www.yoga.com/raw/healing/store/BookAbstracts.html#Gach3  Acu-Yoga: The Acupressure Stress Management Book by Micheal Reed Gach. Contains self help techniques for back problems, body tensions, colds, constipation, depression, headaches, hypertension, neck tension, menstrual tension and shouldr tension. Combining the ancient wisdom of the Chinese medical system and influences by Yoga of India, this is a practical and comprehensive guide to aid the mind and body. (247 pages) Namaste, Shannon I hope you will visit the website.  For information on Yoga, Massage and Bodywork, and Natural Healing                  or to browse Holistic Products to order       visit the Roots & Wings Website at http://www.yoga.com

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B. K. S. Iyengar, in his book The Tree of Yoga, warned against massage after hatha yoga.  He said that if you do asanas and then get a massage, you will be half-dead!  I think that was the expression he used.  He said that since yoga is deep relaxation from within, massage, which is relaxation imposed from without, is of no use. "Esse qua esse bonum est (being, as being, is good)."–St. Augustine

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<<I’m a massage therapist student doing a paper on the connection of yoga and massage.  The benefits, complimentary aspects, etc… if anyone has input, let me know.  Thanks From my understanding, Tai Chi is considered a form of Chinese Yoga.  Because of the continous movement, it is thought to give a gentle message to internal organs.  The Sun Salute in yoga probably has the same effect.  Postures in yoga do massage internal organs as well, but the benefits are more in the area of concentration/meditation.  

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