Question:

Namaste, I’ve always thought of Patanjali as Raja Yoga. I don’t know where the astanga reference comes from. Although when I do a search I can find numerous references to it. I think Pantajali is as far back as it gets in writing. I’d also be interested to know any earlier works still in print.

Most of the references to Patanjali I have seen have been about astanga, but I do have a book about those sutras that carries a heading "raja yoga" in itse covering. I don’t really have a clear picture about what’s raja yoga but atleast I know that Patanjali talks about 8-parted yoga in his sutras. -ajna

Response:

Something that came to my mind, a question: Did Patanjali invent the astanga yoga or did he only write his famous sutras on it?

My understanding is that Patanjali, who is supposed to have lived around 500 BC, codified the existing practice of Yoga into his Aashtaanga system.  He was a teacher who instructed his students in Yoga, Sanskrit grammar, and classical dance. Ofcourse yoga was practised long before Patanjali, but did he put it to his 8-parted system? Is there any information about 8-parted yoga older than the yoga-surtas?

The Rig Veda, which predates the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali by several millenia definitely mention Parnayama and Samadhi, but Patanjali could very well have been the first to put them all together into his 8-limbed system. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -ajna

Response:

Hi all, snip I haven’t been active anymore on this group but I have been stalking the messages.

Blah, blah, blah blah blah and blah. Welcome back. It’s nice to hear from you again Something that came to my mind, a question: Did Patanjali invent the astanga yoga or did he only write his famous sutras on it? Ofcourse yoga was practised long before Patanjali, but did he put it to his 8-parted system? Is there any information about 8-parted yoga older than the yoga-surtas?

I’ve always thought of Patanjali as Raja Yoga. I don’t know where the astanga reference comes from. Although when I do a search I can find numerous references to it. I think Pantajali is as far back as it gets in writing. I’d also be interested to know any earlier works still in print. Namaste

Response:

Hi all, I came back reading this groups. I dropped my practise for few weeks in christmas but now I got back again. I went to a new course and everything.. It’s funny how they teach in this astanga yoga course the meaning of yoga (bind) is to connect the mental and physical aspects of human being etc, not at all about that binding of all opposites and untiy etc. that’s very frequently talked about for example here. Maybe that would be too hardcore and seem too religional for the normal westerners who are coming to look what’s that funny practise of streching and seeking help for their stress and jammed shoulders. Today morning, after participiating the new yoga class again yesterday and doing my practise in the morning, on the way to work I suddenly noticed that I felt great, but I couldn’t really say what had changed. I didn’t feel physically very different from normal. Well, that just proves that yoga is good for me. I haven’t been active anymore on this group but I have been stalking the messages. Something that came to my mind, a question: Did Patanjali invent the astanga yoga or did he only write his famous sutras on it? Ofcourse yoga was practised long before Patanjali, but did he put it to his 8-parted system? Is there any information about 8-parted yoga older than the yoga-surtas? -ajna

Response:

Question:

Hari, Again, thanks for your thoughts. Yes, in the past, I heve found that when a relationship was new, it often seemed like a self-purifying process. In order to make a success of the relationship, I found I was forced me to become a better, less lazy, more honest person. So, yes, there is indeed that side to it, which I had forgotten all about! So, yes, I guess I can see what your Master meant when he said it can be the highest yoga. For me, at least, relationships tend to come along when the time is right, more than when I go looking for one. If it ever happens to me again,  I’ll probably do my best to ride it out, and hope it leads somehwere good and long-lasting.

My best wishes to you that the right angel comes along. I made this experience too that love strucked me when i didn’t expected nor searched for it. I wonder if that is a condition for the shy child ‘love’ to show up? Loves ways are mysterious and manifold… I’ve also noticed that relationships often seem like my karma coming home. I believe I’ve also noticed that I have to approach perfection within myself before I can be blessed with a soul-mate and a real love. I guess I’m still on that path of self-development, and I’ve probably got a long way to go before I get there. But then again, one never knows. I believe a person can be a sinner one day and a saint the next when circumstances decree.

There is one thing in chrsitianity that is very good and you do not find in every other religion: forgiveness. And that is pretty much what love is also about – to forgive the other but especially yourself for beeing imperfect, simply a human beeing. I you can forgive yourself your imperfections you are able to accept them too. And only things that are accepted and recognized are able to go away. Everything that is fought against and rejected comes back again and again. We can see this in the inside and outside world. See, how much efforts are done to fight terror! And there never has been a more unstable and insecure situation on the globe since the 70s. Israel and Palestine. The more there is fight against the unwanted the more suffering and insecurity there is. It’s all in the hands of God, I guess. Meanwhile, it sems to make sense to try one’s best to better onesself spiritually, physically and karmicly in every way one can think of. There is no escaping one’s karma IMO, so one may as well try to get on the right side of karmic law, yes?

Hm. It’s all in the Hands of God you said. "Herr dir in die Haende, sei Anfang und Ende, sei alles gelegt." – Moerike "Lord, in thou Hands, shall be laid beginning and end, shall be laid everything." Of course we are on a lifelong quest. God created you the way you are. He must have had an idea with that I don’t belief that humans are born in sin. Nor do i belief that Karma should be mixed with the christian concept of sin. Karma is something like a task of learning that was given to you. Something you are here to fullfill. Not because you are bad or good but because there is still something to learn / experience. While i read what you wrote i more and more doupt that it is your Karma to frustrated refrain from relationships with woman and become a monk. Maybe it is instead one task to heal the frustrated and insecure man inside? It’s never too late. In the 80’s we had a popular song in Germany that was titled: "Wann ist ein Mann ein Mann?" ("What makes a man a man?") by Germanys still most popular Popstar – Herbert Groenemeyer. He even sung that song in english… Maybe I find it somewhere and can send it to you I don’t know if the english translation is as good as the german original…. Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh

Response:

My best wishes to you that the right angel comes along.

Thank you – a true angel would be nice! I made this experience too that love strucked me when i didn’t expected nor searched for it. I wonder if that is a condition for the shy child ‘love’ to show up?

Perhaps it was tha the woman was attracted by your innocence. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also noticed that relationships often seem like my karma coming home. I believe I’ve also noticed that I have to approach perfection within myself before I can be blessed with a soul-mate and a real love. I guess I’m still on that path of self-development, and I’ve probably got a long way to go before I get there. But then again, one never knows. I believe a person can be a sinner one day and a saint the next when circumstances decree. There is one thing in chrsitianity that is very good and you do not find in every other religion: forgiveness. And that is pretty much what love is also about – to forgive the other but especially yourself for beeing imperfect, simply a human beeing. I you can forgive yourself your imperfections you are able to accept them too. And only things that are accepted and recognized are able to go away. Everything that is fought against and rejected comes back again and again. We can see this in the inside and outside world. See, how much efforts are done to fight terror! And there never has been a more unstable and insecure situation on the globe since the 70s. Israel and Palestine. The more there is fight against the unwanted the more suffering and insecurity there is. It’s all in the hands of God, I guess. Meanwhile, it sems to make sense to try one’s best to better onesself spiritually, physically and karmicly in every way one can think of. There is no escaping one’s karma IMO, so one may as well try to get on the right side of karmic law, yes? Hm. It’s all in the Hands of God you said. "Herr dir in die Haende, sei Anfang und Ende, sei alles gelegt." – Moerike "Lord, in thou Hands, shall be laid beginning and end, shall be laid everything." Of course we are on a lifelong quest. God created you the way you are. He must have had an idea with that I don’t belief that humans are born in sin. Nor do i belief that Karma should be mixed with the christian concept of sin. Karma is something like a task of learning that was given to you. Something you are here to fullfill. Not because you are bad or good but because there is still something to learn / experience. While i read what you wrote i more and more doupt that it is your Karma to frustrated refrain from relationships with woman and become a monk. Maybe it is instead one task to heal the frustrated and insecure man inside? It’s never too late.

Maybe. Healing is a natural process, they say… but sometimes it can take a long time. In the 80’s we had a popular song in Germany that was titled: "Wann ist ein Mann ein Mann?" ("What makes a man a man?") by Germanys still most popular Popstar – Herbert Groenemeyer. He even sung that song in english… Maybe I find it somewhere and can send it to you I don’t know if the english translation is as good as the german original….

I tried to access the sound sample via the links you gave, but I was unable to receive anything… Thanks anyway! So you are in Germany, Hari? Where did you gain such a good command of the English language? Did you live in England once? All the best, Jake

Response:

Ah, I found something …. That’s the CD: http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000542TE/028-8795678-5518136 And this is a little bad-sound-quality-real-audio-sample of "Men": http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000542TE001007/028-87956… 136 Sorry, haven’t found anything better yet Hari Har Singh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hari, Again, thanks for your thoughts. Yes, in the past, I heve found that when a relationship was new, it often seemed like a self-purifying process. In order to make a success of the relationship, I found I was forced me to become a better, less lazy, more honest person. So, yes, there is indeed that side to it, which I had forgotten all about! So, yes, I guess I can see what your Master meant when he said it can be the highest yoga. For me, at least, relationships tend to come along when the time is right, more than when I go looking for one. If it ever happens to me again,  I’ll probably do my best to ride it out, and hope it leads somehwere good and long-lasting. My best wishes to you that the right angel comes along. I made this experience too that love strucked me when i didn’t expected nor searched for it. I wonder if that is a condition for the shy child ‘love’ to show up? Loves ways are mysterious and manifold… I’ve also noticed that relationships often seem like my karma coming home. I believe I’ve also noticed that I have to approach perfection within myself before I can be blessed with a soul-mate and a real love. I guess I’m still on that path of self-development, and I’ve probably got a long way to go before I get there. But then again, one never knows. I believe a person can be a sinner one day and a saint the next when circumstances decree. There is one thing in chrsitianity that is very good and you do not find in every other religion: forgiveness. And that is pretty much what love is also about – to forgive the other but especially yourself for beeing imperfect, simply a human beeing. I you can forgive yourself your imperfections you are able to accept them too. And only things that are accepted and recognized are able to go away. Everything that is fought against and rejected comes back again and again. We can see this in the inside and outside world. See, how much efforts are done to fight terror! And there never has been a more unstable and insecure situation on the globe since the 70s. Israel and Palestine. The more there is fight against the unwanted the more suffering and insecurity there is. It’s all in the hands of God, I guess. Meanwhile, it sems to make sense to try one’s best to better onesself spiritually, physically and karmicly in every way one can think of. There is no escaping one’s karma IMO, so one may as well try to get on the right side of karmic law, yes? Hm. It’s all in the Hands of God you said. "Herr dir in die Haende, sei Anfang und Ende, sei alles gelegt." – Moerike "Lord, in thou Hands, shall be laid beginning and end, shall be laid everything." Of course we are on a lifelong quest. God created you the way you are. He must have had an idea with that I don’t belief that humans are born in sin. Nor do i belief that Karma should be mixed with the christian concept of sin. Karma is something like a task of learning that was given to you. Something you are here to fullfill. Not because you are bad or good but because there is still something to learn / experience. While i read what you wrote i more and more doupt that it is your Karma to frustrated refrain from relationships with woman and become a monk. Maybe it is instead one task to heal the frustrated and insecure man inside? It’s never too late. In the 80’s we had a popular song in Germany that was titled: "Wann ist ein Mann ein Mann?" ("What makes a man a man?") by Germanys still most popular Popstar – Herbert Groenemeyer. He even sung that song in english… Maybe I find it somewhere and can send it to you I don’t know if the english translation is as good as the german original…. Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh

Response:

Funnily enough, the same genre as what you’ve been referring to. Jimi Hendrix was my absolute demigod when I was in my teens and twenties. I was utterly hypnotised by his playing. I was pretty much a heavy rock-er. In the late 70s and early 80s I went through the country rock thing.

I hear you.  Played drums in a rock band in the 70’s and a cocktail music combo to make money.  Played some jazz piano with a group for a while.  But I always had the guitar.  The rock of the 70’s turned into folk rock in the later decade.  Used to like John Prine out of Chicago and of course Dylan. A few years ago as a woodworking project I built a guitar. Thought I should get a little more serious about playing and started taking lessons.  I always thought the move was an alternate mid-life crisis red sport-car type of thing.  Only less expensive. Lately I have put down my electric guitars and concentrated almost entirely on acoustic. As far as country blues goes, Mississippi John Hurt is probably my favourite acoustic guitar player of all time. His alternate bass fingerstyle is tricky, but I’ve successfully worked out a couple of his tunes: "Spoonful" and "Spike Driver Blues".

Been learning "Stagolee".  I have a fair amount of Tab music – If you didn’t live so far away I would send you some copies (Your in Germany right?) You might like this music book, ROOTS OF ACOUSTIC BLUES GUITAR <http://members.aol.com/sokolowmus/blues.htm Its all tab and comes with a CD. But apart from the country blues stuff I like a lot of folk and bluegrass flatpicking stuff.

Yea.  Cool. I also dabbled in the drums for a while, and wish I still had a place to play a full drum kit, because I found that incredibly therapeutic and meditative. Meanwhile, I am doing a bit of hand drumming with a devotional chanting group me and some local yogis do every week, and also a weekly bahjan held by another group. Im thinking of buying a set of tablas, as I’ve been listening to some fine tabla playing on some Indian music CDs lately. There’s a well-known tabla player coming to do a workshop in my town, and I’m wishing I had a set I could take along. I’d also like to own a sitar… I love the drone sound a sitar makes… maybe some day…

There was I time when I owned some tablas.  Those suckers are hard to play. Books are of no help because the Indians don’t use written notes, they sing the rhythms.  I did see a really cool drum synthesizer by Yamaha that you play with the hands like a conga drum and can get out tabla sounds. To bad you live so far away.  If you lived in LA I would invite you over to jam. — ~Stu

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wrote However, it was a charming and compassionate thought you expressed and I appreciate it for that reason. As it happens, the way my life is going, I am nowadays meeting many more beautiful people who are on my wavelength than ever before. So loneliness is not really a big issue for me any more. This is terrific.  And I hope out of these new people will emerge someone with who can find intimacy. Sounds nice – but, hey, whatever happenned to brahmacharya? OK, OK, brahmacharya doen’t necessarily mean celibacy, or so they tell me, but I’ve found that often when I get into a intimate relationship I tend to get focused on the carnal gratification side of it – assuming it’s with a lady with sex-appeal, that is… That would probably undermine my yogic aspirations, and throw me off balance, and be the beginning of the end, I fear. Once you become reliant on an external object, substance or person for your sustenance and emotional wellbeing, you are well and truly screwed, no? Sooner or later you and the external thing/object/person will have to part company, and the longer you have been reliant on him/her/it, the harder it will be to cope with… my 2 cents… Sounds to me all  like a fascinating challenge Relationship between man and woman, my Master once said, is the highest Yoga of all. I often found it difficult, but also often very rewarding too! You can learn so much through woman, it’s amazing. For example about your insecurities, your imbalances, your desires, your feelings, your love… And you can learn that life is precious because at the end every relationship will end. So it can be a good training also to let go in a good way if you have to end a relationship.

Hari, Again, thanks for your thoughts. Yes, in the past, I heve found that when a relationship was new, it often seemed like a self-purifying process. In order to make a success of the relationship, I found I was forced me to become a better, less lazy, more honest person. So, yes, there is indeed that side to it, which I had forgotten all about! So, yes, I guess I can see what your Master meant when he said it can be the highest yoga. For me, at least, relationships tend to come along when the time is right, more than when I go looking for one. If it ever happens to me again,  I’ll probably do my best to ride it out, and hope it leads somehwere good and long-lasting. I’ve also noticed that relationships often seem like my karma coming home. I believe I’ve also noticed that I have to approach perfection within myself before I can be blessed with a soul-mate and a real love. I guess I’m still on that path of self-development, and I’ve probably got a long way to go before I get there. But then again, one never knows. I believe a person can be a sinner one day and a saint the next when circumstances decree. It’s all in the hands of God, I guess. Meanwhile, it sems to make sense to try one’s best to better onesself spiritually, physically and karmicly in every way one can think of. There is no escaping one’s karma IMO, so one may as well try to get on the right side of karmic law, yes? Om Tat Sat Jake

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wrote However, it was a charming and compassionate thought you expressed and I appreciate it for that reason. As it happens, the way my life is going, I am nowadays meeting many more beautiful people who are on my wavelength than ever before. So loneliness is not really a big issue for me any more. This is terrific.  And I hope out of these new people will emerge someone with who can find intimacy. Sounds nice – but, hey, whatever happenned to brahmacharya? OK, OK, brahmacharya doen’t necessarily mean celibacy, or so they tell me, but I’ve found that often when I get into a intimate relationship I tend to get focused on the carnal gratification side of it – assuming it’s with a lady with sex-appeal, that is… That would probably undermine my yogic aspirations, and throw me off balance, and be the beginning of the end, I fear. Once you become reliant on an external object, substance or person for your sustenance and emotional wellbeing, you are well and truly screwed, no? Sooner or later you and the external thing/object/person will have to part company, and the longer you have been reliant on him/her/it, the harder it will be to cope with…

my 2 cents… Sounds to me all  like a fascinating challenge Relationship between man and woman, my Master once said, is the highest Yoga of all. I often found it difficult, but also often very rewarding too! You can learn so much through woman, it’s amazing. For example about your insecurities, your imbalances, your desires, your feelings, your love… And you can learn that life is precious because at the end every relationship will end. So it can be a good training also to let go in a good way if you have to end a relationship. My main problem is that I tend to wake up each morning with a head full of regrets, sadness and other negative bullsh*t. That’s what I need to cure, above all else. Be careful of using yoga as an excuse to hide away from the world socially. I hear what you are saying.. but actually, Yoga is having the opposite affect for me. It is giving me a spiritual and empathic link with new people – good people – I would never have met otherwise.

That sounds good. I made the same experience. It can sound very noble to pursue a path of spirituality, but humans have needs too. Do you really mean ‘needs’ or do your mean ‘desires’? Does a human being really ‘need’ a partner, or does he just ‘desire’ one because he’s been conditioned to? What about the completely celibate yogis who have attained samadhi? Were they just fiction?

I wouldn’t call ‘love’ a need – maybe a passion? There are Monks. And it is your free decission weather you want to become a Monk or not. But the reason to become a Monk shouldn’t be because you are frustrated with beeing a non-monk, but because you are attracted by the monks lifestyle, right? I’ve been trying the relationship thing all my life as a hoped-for solution to my problems. However, they have invariably lead me to grief. Now I want to explore the alternative way… the way of higher wisdom… I no longer have faith in the relationship solution… In any case, Im 50 yrs old now. Atrractive females tend to be looking for younger men…

Good luck on your path. I guess that – as long as there is grief about past relationships – you’ll be thrown back on this issue if you start living as a monk. We cannot escape from ourselfs. The inside needs healing. I’ll hope you find it. And your decission to refrain from relationships / sex owes respect. Everybody needs to choose the path that suits him / her best. Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh

Response:

However, it was a charming and compassionate thought you expressed and I appreciate it for that reason. As it happens, the way my life is going, I am nowadays meeting many more beautiful people who are on my wavelength than ever before. So loneliness is not really a big issue for me any more. This is terrific.  And I hope out of these new people will emerge someone with who can find intimacy.

Sounds nice – but, hey, whatever happenned to brahmacharya? OK, OK, brahmacharya doen’t necessarily mean celibacy, or so they tell me, but I’ve found that often when I get into a intimate relationship I tend to get focused on the carnal gratification side of it – assuming it’s with a lady with sex-appeal, that is… That would probably undermine my yogic aspirations, and throw me off balance, and be the beginning of the end, I fear. Once you become reliant on an external object, substance or person for your sustenance and emotional wellbeing, you are well and truly screwed, no? Sooner or later you and the external thing/object/person will have to part company, and the longer you have been reliant on him/her/it, the harder it will be to cope with… My main problem is that I tend to wake up each morning with a head full of regrets, sadness and other negative bullsh*t. That’s what I need to cure, above all else. Be careful of using yoga as an excuse to hide away from the world socially.

I hear what you are saying.. but actually, Yoga is having the opposite affect for me. It is giving me a spiritual and empathic link with new people – good people – I would never have met otherwise. It can sound very noble to pursue a path of spirituality, but humans have needs too.

Do you really mean ‘needs’ or do your mean ‘desires’? Does a human being really ‘need’ a partner, or does he just ‘desire’ one because he’s been conditioned to? What about the completely celibate yogis who have attained samadhi? Were they just fiction? I’ve been trying the relationship thing all my life as a hoped-for solution to my problems. However, they have invariably lead me to grief. Now I want to explore the alternative way… the way of higher wisdom… I no longer have faith in the relationship solution… In any case, Im 50 yrs old now. Atrractive females tend to be looking for younger men… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sexuality is a big part of that.  It should not be denied.  The ying and yang of relationships are part of spirituality. Leave the meditating in a cave part for the monks. Lord, make me a positive thinker *all* the time! Let me se the bright side of life all the time. And why not – after all, each of us is showered with absolute blessings. It surely makes sense to appreciate that, rather than dwell on our mistakes, our regrets, and our perceived misfortunes, yes? I can’t help but think much of your regrets, sadness and other negative bullsh*t is tied to the blues.  And none of those songs suggest practicing yoga as a cure.  Generally its all about going on to the next women. ‘Cause if my baby don’t love me no more, I know her sister will!

At least, he *hoped* her sister would… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —Jimi Hendrix, Red House One thing that does turn my mood around quite effectively sometimes, is when I play my guitar to myself. I guess because it’s a sort of outlet for my emotions. I’m also working on the idea of starting a mantra of some kind, each morning, the moment I wake up…. (suggestions appreciated)… Have a great day! Peace.. Jake I spend a lot of time myself noodling on the guitar.  Last year I took some lessons from a guy with extensive experience in very old country style blues – been exploring Blind Lemon, Big Bill Bronzy and others on a Taylor Nylon. My playing is really starting to get better. What do you like to play?

Funnily enough, the same genre as what you’ve been referring to. Jimi Hendrix was my absolute demigod when I was in my teens and twenties. I was utterly hypnotised by his playing. I was pretty much a heavy rock-er. In the late 70s and early 80s I went through the country rock thing. Lately I have put down my electric guitars and concentrated almost entirely on acoustic. As far as country blues goes, Mississippi John Hurt is probably my favourite acoustic guitar player of all time. His alternate bass fingerstyle is tricky, but I’ve successfully worked out a couple of his tunes: "Spoonful" and "Spike Driver Blues". But apart from the country blues stuff I like a lot of folk and bluegrass flatpicking stuff. I also dabbled in the drums for a while, and wish I still had a place to play a full drum kit, because I found that incredibly therapeutic and meditative. Meanwhile, I am doing a bit of hand drumming with a devotional chanting group me and some local yogis do every week, and also a weekly bahjan held by another group. Im thinking of buying a set of tablas, as I’ve been listening to some fine tabla playing on some Indian music CDs lately. There’s a well-known tabla player coming to do a workshop in my town, and I’m wishing I had a set I could take along. I’d also like to own a sitar… I love the drone sound a sitar makes… maybe some day… Namaste, Jake

Response:

However, it was a charming and compassionate thought you expressed and I appreciate it for that reason. As it happens, the way my life is going, I am nowadays meeting many more beautiful people who are on my wavelength than ever before. So loneliness is not really a big issue for me any more.

This is terrific.  And I hope out of these new people will emerge someone with who can find intimacy. My main problem is that I tend to wake up each morning with a head full of regrets, sadness and other negative bullsh*t. That’s what I need to cure, above all else.

Be careful of using yoga as an excuse to hide away from the world socially. It can sound very noble to pursue a path of spirituality, but humans have needs too.  Sexuality is a big part of that.  It should not be denied.  The ying and yang of relationships are part of spirituality. Leave the meditating in a cave part for the monks. Lord, make me a positive thinker *all* the time! Let me se the bright side of life all the time. And why not – after all, each of us is showered with absolute blessings. It surely makes sense to appreciate that, rather than dwell on our mistakes, our regrets, and our perceived misfortunes, yes?

I can’t help but think much of your regrets, sadness and other negative bullsh*t is tied to the blues.  And none of those songs suggest practicing yoga as a cure.  Generally its all about going on to the next women. ‘Cause if my baby don’t love me no more, I know her sister will! –Jimi Hendrix, Red House One thing that does turn my mood around quite effectively sometimes, is when I play my guitar to myself. I guess because it’s a sort of outlet for my emotions. I’m also working on the idea of starting a mantra of some kind, each morning, the moment I wake up…. (suggestions appreciated)… Have a great day! Peace.. Jake

I spend a lot of time myself noodling on the guitar.  Last year I took some lessons from a guy with extensive experience in very old country style blues – been exploring Blind Lemon, Big Bill Bronzy and others on a Taylor Nylon. My playing is really starting to get better. What do you like to play? — ~Stu

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What about starting with sitting down and watching your breath inhaling and exhaling for 10 minutes? That is a very good one! Tell us what experiences you’ll make with this one. Hi Hari, Yes, as a matter of fact, I have been using that technique since the 1970s, off and on. For me, it works very well as a technique for focusing and stilling the mind – but I never had any really profound experiences with it – just a very nice inner calmness; that’s all. Now I’m looking for ways to go further.. Namaste, Jake Hi Jake, i didn’t knew that. So, you see it is difficult to give an individual advice if you don’t know the person.

Hello Hari, My fault; I should have geven more background info. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -But I can tell you what worked for me as a way to go further. I started in the late 80’s with Yoga and meditation for the same reasons, to gain inner calmness, health, etc. To me for 2-3 years meditation was something healthy to do. But then i visited a Yoga Festival in France and there it happened… During the Morning Meditation on the big meadow, the sun rised over the wood in the distance, the group of meditators sung a Mantra that i heard before, but i was singing it in this special melody the first time. It was the Mantra "Guru Guru Wahe Guru Guru Ram Das Guru". It is a Mantra of healing and compassion. And we chanted this Mantra in a compassionate and lifting way melody. Suddendly i was deeply touched in the heart, crying and saying to myself within "Wow! This is what Meditation can be!" Not that all meditations in the past have been like this (unfortunately) – but to me this experience was like a new door that opend to a new space of possible experiences. Sometimes something suddenly touches you in the heart. It can be Mantra, a Song, something somebody says to you, a picture or a scene you see etc. Stick with this experience to be touched, feel it and then find out what touched you. Maybe this is the way that you can find your very personal way to go further. Trust your-self and your experiences!

Thanks hari. Funnily enough, I’ve been using the "Wahe Guru" mantra during walking pranayama lately (just started). (Not including the "Ram Das" part.) Om shanti Jake

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What about starting with sitting down and watching your breath inhaling and exhaling for 10 minutes? That is a very good one! Tell us what experiences you’ll make with this one. Hi Hari, Yes, as a matter of fact, I have been using that technique since the 1970s, off and on. For me, it works very well as a technique for focusing and stilling the mind – but I never had any really profound experiences with it – just a very nice inner calmness; that’s all. Now I’m looking for ways to go further.. Namaste, Jake

Hi Jake, i didn’t knew that. So, you see it is difficult to give an individual advice if you don’t know the person. But I can tell you what worked for me as a way to go further. I started in the late 80’s with Yoga and meditation for the same reasons, to gain inner calmness, health, etc. To me for 2-3 years meditation was something healthy to do. But then i visited a Yoga Festival in France and there it happened… During the Morning Meditation on the big meadow, the sun rised over the wood in the distance, the group of meditators sung a Mantra that i heard before, but i was singing it in this special melody the first time. It was the Mantra "Guru Guru Wahe Guru Guru Ram Das Guru". It is a Mantra of healing and compassion. And we chanted this Mantra in a compassionate and lifting way melody. Suddendly i was deeply touched in the heart, crying and saying to myself within "Wow! This is what Meditation can be!" Not that all meditations in the past have been like this (unfortunately) – but to me this experience was like a new door that opend to a new space of possible experiences. Sometimes something suddenly touches you in the heart. It can be Mantra, a Song, something somebody says to you, a picture or a scene you see etc. Stick with this experience to be touched, feel it and then find out what touched you. Maybe this is the way that you can find your very personal way to go further. Trust your-self and your experiences! Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I have said in the past, there is no substitute for a living breathing teacher.  It would be best for you to search your community for teachers. Stu, So you did! As it so happens, I am starting a Raja Yoga course next Sunday. That may be all I need. [snip] Been there; done that! I paid my money over back in 1985 and it was after I received my mantra initiation that I decided I didn’t want to be associated with the organisation. I was put off (a) by the nature of the organisation (b) the way the guy who initiated be was picking his nose while performing the ceremony, and (b) because it just didn’t work for me as well as other techniques which I had already been practising for years. But thanks for the suggestion anyway. I guess mantra meditation is still always open to me even if I don’t asociate with TMO… It’s not like TMO invented mantra meditation…

Given that you have already paid the bucks it may be worth it for you to be "checked" by a teacher.  You have obviously grown a great deal in the last 17 years.  Perhaps now you are ready to try again.  A "checking" is a system by which you will be put back on the right track of meditation.  And it is possible to practice TM without the TMO – I have had little contact with them, just the occasional checking.  These are done for free. In fact there is little I agree with as far as the organization goes – but the meditation does work if you give it an opportunity and approach it with innocence and no expectations as you would an asana. In the meantime good luck on your Sunday class – I really hope you find what you are looking for. It wouldn’t hurt to get back in the dating thing as well.  A girl would go a long way to relieving your anxiety and depression. — ~Stu

Response:

What about starting with sitting down and watching your breath inhaling and exhaling for 10 minutes? That is a very good one! Tell us what experiences you’ll make with this one.

Hi Hari, Yes, as a matter of fact, I have been using that technique since the 1970s, off and on. For me, it works very well as a technique for focusing and stilling the mind – but I never had any really profound experiences with it – just a very nice inner calmness; that’s all. Now I’m looking for ways to go further.. Namaste, Jake

Response:

Yes Jake.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jake, First of all, meditation is a term that is completely misunderstood. True meditation does not even start until you are able to raise kundalini to the higher psychic centers. What is typically referred to as "meditation" is simply not true meditation. Maybe it’s a light trance of some kind, but not true meditation.  According to Sir George King, a Western Master of Yoga, Brett, That would be the Aethereus Society George King, yes? I have some of his audio tapes here… the true meditator will be able to have access to all knowledge during the meditations. Now, there are many fine techniques for "quieting the mind" and gaining inspiration. Performing MANTRA is an excellent way to do this. I highly recommend getting initiated into mantra by someone who is experienced with this and understands the laws of Mantra. I wouldn’t learn it from a book. Proper pronunciation is vital. I much appreciate your suggestions… Om shanti Jake

Response:

Given that you have already paid the bucks it may be worth it for you to be "checked" by a teacher.  You have obviously grown a great deal in the last 17 years.  Perhaps now you are ready to try again.  A "checking" is a system by which you will be put back on the right track of meditation.  And it is possible to practice TM without the TMO – I have had little contact with them, just the occasional checking.  These are done for free.

Oh, well, I guess I’d have nothing to lose. Perhaps I’ll do that. Thanks for the suggestions. It wouldn’t hurt to get back in the dating thing as well.  A girl would go a long way to relieving your anxiety and depression.

Again, I much appreciate the compassionate suggestion, but you see, Stu, I am trying to live by the philosophy that one doesn’t need external things in order to have inner peace. Admittedly, I haven’t succeeded yet, but I do have faith in the concept. I think I need to sort my inner self out first before I dabble in intimate relationships again. I’m still carrying around a lot of emotional garbage. Almost every morning I wake up feeling remorseful, thinking of things I regret. I really need to turn all that around and achieve libration of the self first, I think. I don’t want to become the personm I used to be: someone who was always chasing after this girl or that situation believing it would transform me into a permanently satisfied being. I’ve learned that if you rely on external things for happiness, you are setting youself up for major *un*happiness! I want to be totally independent on external things for my happiness and inner peace. That’s exactly why I am following Yoga and meditation, etc. The yearning for a soul-mate does still gnaw at me occasionally, but that is exactly the kind of self-delusion I am trying to defeat! That little voice from behind is so damned convincing sometimes! I think I shoiuld get into the habit of chucking a pinch of salt over my shoulder whenever I hear it, saying "Get behind me satan!" However, it was a charming and compassionate thought you expressed and I appreciate it for that reason. As it happens, the way my life is going, I am nowadays meeting many more beautiful people who are on my wavelength than ever before. So loneliness is not really a big issue for me any more. My main problem is that I tend to wake up each morning with a head full of regrets, sadness and other negative bullsh*t. That’s what I need to cure, above all else. Lord, make me a positive thinker *all* the time! Let me se the bright side of life all the time. And why not – after all, each of us is showered with absolute blessings. It surely makes sense to appreciate that, rather than dwell on our mistakes, our regrets, and our perceived misfortunes, yes? One thing that does turn my mood around quite effectively sometimes, is when I play my guitar to myself. I guess because it’s a sort of outlet for my emotions. I’m also working on the idea of starting a mantra of some kind, each morning, the moment I wake up…. (suggestions appreciated)… Have a great day! Peace.. Jake

Response:

Well I have a bias toward the techniques which I practice but one thing I can tell you is that its first necessary to cultivate concentration before any true meditation can happen. Without concentration you cant meditate on anything because meditation incorporates the unbroken flow of concentration. A very good technique of concentration is the ancient Indian one called Hamsa or Hong-Sau. It is a slight variation of watching the breath except you listen to the natural sound that the breath makes as associate it mentally with the seed-mantra of the breath discovered by the sages long ago.

Seeker, Funnily enough, I was doing that technique earlier today; my yoga teacher had us doing it during a yoga class. For many years I have practised the ‘watching breath’ technique, but I have tended to concentrate more on the feeling of the breath entering and leaving the nose-gate rather than the sound. But when I tried the listening method this morning, it certainly seemed every bit as effective, as a method for fucusing, calming and stilling the mind. Watching the breath without any effort to control it develops both concentration and also accomplishes the important task of calming the breath, mind and heart-beat, allowing the life-force and mind to retire deeper within and, free of distraction, begin to know the silent, hidden God within.

Many thanks for your input! Namaste, Jake

Response:

I want to start a regular daily prcatice of meditation, but am confused by the diversity of techniques to choose from. Can nyone give me some guidance on choosing the one that will suit me best? As I have said in the past, there is no substitute for a living breathing teacher.  It would be best for you to search your community for teachers.

Stu, So you did! As it so happens, I am starting a Raja Yoga course next Sunday. That may be all I need. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -However; There is a website- <http://www.wildmind.org/index_wildmind.html There are excellent Real Audio guides to various Buddhist meditation techniques.  For a small donation he will offer online consultation. It is possible to learn Mindfulness meditation (Vipassana) from a series of CD’s.  A WEB search will yield a source for this. A slightly less conventional technique has been developed by a meditator, Bill Harris called Holosync

Question:

Dear Mike,  Apart from some arguments involving physics/quantum mechanics I have my reserves about, I generally agree with everything you’ve said so far in this and other articles I’ve read. But I have a question for you: When you talk about samadhi/nirvana/superconsiosness/etc., do you speak from personal experience or is it something you’ve learned from books on yoga you’ve read?

I learned lots of things and gave them pet names cause I did not know what their yoga names were. Sometimes it is pretty funny studying something trying to figure out what they are talking about and then it dawns on you – Oh! thats ‘the rock fallen down’ – known to the rest of the world as Unmani Avastha. In this NG the yoga I talk about is both from experience and from books. Like when did pranayama first come about? That’s a book question. As far as samadhi and psychic power and so forth that is all first hand experience. Because the world believes they are their minds I study mind things to communicate effectively. I have an agenda against science and religion bashing. Nothing more entertaining than beating an atheist over the head with their own weapons. So that is why you may see me switch gears and go on about science and western philosophy. I never had an interest in western philosophy. I only wanted to know where it went wrong. What foolish roads led the the current state of affairs in the world. The science worshipers see fit to think that all religious people are easy prey to walk all over talking about things like the fossil record, the big bang etc. – falsely believing that all people believe what Creationists believe about the world being created in 7 days etc. I intend to find out how consciousness is related to quantum mechanics and psychic phenomena and mind are related to QM as well. Since metaphysics of yoga is so astonishingly simple, it is a big break from the equations of quantum mechanics. Belief systems such as science are entertainment taking apart. Thats why for example I recently had a post out on ontology and epistemology. What is real and how do you know that – applies to science as equally as well as philosophy or why you bought a donut instead of a pretzel. What is the leading cause of delusion in maya? Belief systems are a natural approach for understanding this. (metaphysics) The post below is only a the last small part of a larger one. There is a great need for thinking about things differently. One of the biggest problems science has today is the inability to form sentences correctly. If you do not speak about a phenomena correctly then you do not think about it correctly either. The subconscious is programmed incorrectly in the bargain and so progress ceases. For instance, people abuse language – we say ‘I think I will go to the store.’ Meaning, I think I will take my physical body to the store. We are not our physical body. We say – ‘I am angry.’ Meaning – I am aware of an emotion called anger. We are not our emotions. We say – ‘I think that is good.’ Meaning, my mind thinks this is relatively good. We are not our minds. In the same way science makes observations and constructs hypothesis incorrectly by forming false conceptions/putting words together that actually have no meaning – or the meaning gained by them is not entirely correct because their perspective is wrong. One of the biggest problems in this NG and all the rest as well is communication. Here we have a bunch of people with different experiences but can not convey them very easily. If I attend a yoga class with 10 people for 2 years say, we have an affinity – when we perform certain postures and do certain things, we acquire certain states of consciousness. All of us know by the name given to that state of consciousness what the other means. But it means absoultely nothing outside of that class. They are subjective experiences that can only be shared by the participants. Only a violin player can appreciate another violin player. Only from many years of participating in many different yoga functions (I am in yoga city – Washington DC) and a lot of research did I find things in common between yoga groups. And they are not many. But it is easy for me to tell of the success another has in yoga because there are some very unmistakable signs. In fact, simply by the way a person puts words together tells me more than what the person says lots of the time. For example, if you read the book Kundalini Evolution and Enlightenment – which is a collection of experiences of illuminates – within the first paragraph I could tell if this was going to be someone telling me garbage from a book or something real. I was quite amazed to find most of these different people having the same experiences I had. How can so many different systems of yoga lead to success? The answer is simple. They followed the BLISS. That can be the only answer. But some of them I could see through in a heartbeat. They did not really know very much at all. Usually they would go on the defensive about some trivial nonsense point. In all the meditation classes of all manner you can imagine the prevailing people attending them are not progressing in meditation. But you have to admire their tenacity for showing up every time. People simply won’t do more than dream with their eyes closed and call it meditation. But since everyone is doing it everyone equally thinks the other guy is having no more luck than them. Then you have a huge discrepency between the successful people and not. It results in the luckless bunch not understanding the difference between Self-Realization and Enlightenment. We get gurus talked into believing they are Enlightened by their students. Who would you rather have as a teacher someone Enlightened or non-Enlightened?  You are not so special to go to samadhi. You are compared to the luckess bunch but that doesn’t really say much. There just are not enough yoga teachers that have been trained in mysticism and esoteric matters. They get some silly certificate for how well they can twist their bodys from some teacher that is 2 chapters ahead of them in the book…… But there are few serious yoga people as well. Everyone wants something for nothing. Controlling the mind is the most difficult thing you will ever do in life. It takes a great deal of skill to learn how to control the mind with concentration. It is not ‘fun.’ But we have people listening to music while they meditate. We have ‘guided meditations.’ Every sort of nonsense to enable a person to fool themselves (and make a buck on the other end.) Subramunia would give his students an aura inspection. Called it one of the tools of the trade. This to see how they were progressing along in yoga. But in his school, there is no question about whether a person doing yoga was serious. If you ran off to the ashram at his school you would likely find your little butt running right on back home again where life is much easier. I learned most of my early stuff from him on mysticism and esoteric matters. However, I don’t talk about him much now because later in his life he went to hard core Hinduism with too much emphasis on ritual for me. When I started with him he taught Raja Yoga (of a sort that hardly resembles Patanjali). If anyone wants to learn about all those things you are NOT taught in your yoga classes, do a find on Himalayan Academy and Subramunia. Don’t put that much faith in your local hatha yoga teacher knowing that much. It is quite likely if you do you will be dissapointed. Here is Subramunia’s daily email lesson. I only recommend Merging With Shiva because it has a lot of the original material he taught in his Raja Yoga course long ago. (He also sends Living With Shiva and other lessons) I believe you can also find all 365 lessons on his web pages. You can subscribe and unsubscribe as per below any time you want – it is done automatically. Mike Dubbeld LESSON 68 from Merging with Siva Facing Up To Yourself So, here we come to a very important state for spiritual unfoldment, and that is to face yourself. Have the courage to admit when you are right or the courage to admit when you are wrong. Have the intelligence to know that these are states of mind through which your awareness is passing and they have nothing to do with you at all, because you are pure spirit. The life force within you is pure spirit. It has nothing to do with the turmoil of the mind. And you have the intelligence to know that through the proper handling of your mind, you control your mind. So, for example, you might face yourself and say, "All right, so I was wrong. I became angry, and for three days before I became angry, I was sort of angling for it, sort of creating the situation and antagonizing the situation to work myself up into that state. Now I don’t perhaps know why I did that. Perhaps because things were too peaceful and I was bored. So I thought I would create the upset. Of course, I didn’t know I would create such an upset and react and feel so badly, but at least it was a change. Things were too quiet and too peaceful, and the person I became angry at was too happy." When you begin to face your mind like that, you find out how you create every situation, whether you know it or not. Mentally look back at the various states of mind through which you have passed. It is like taking a trip in your automobile. Each city and each state has its personality and its experience, and each state of mind through which consciousness has passed has its personality, too, and its experiences. And yet, that You is always the same–the You that lives a little bit behind the conscious mind in which you dwell each day. You will have this power if you dedicate each  or  as a holy day. Work for the sake of work if you have to work on  or , dedicating the fruits of your labor to the highest within you. … read more »

Response:

Dear Mike,  Apart from some arguments involving physics/quantum mechanics I have my reserves about, I generally agree with everything you’ve said so far in this and other articles I’ve read. But I have a question for you: When you talk about samadhi/nirvana/superconsiosness/etc., do you speak from personal experience or is it something you’ve learned from books on yoga you’ve read?  Thanks,  Vampa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are no dragons. The only heros there are in the world are the ones that know how to control the mind. Controlling the mind is the most difficult (and last) thing you can and will ever do. That is why you are here. To learn that lesson. That we are NOT our minds and our minds need be controlled with our will. By controlling the mind – which is part of nature itself – we control all the universe – both external and internal and gain mastery over it – gain freedom from it. There is no freedom in the world. There is only freedom FROM the world. This freedom is had only by concentration that leads to meditation and contemplation and samadhi. All the riddles nature reveal themselves to the one that controls the mind. All the mysteries of ancient holy literature. Revelations are frequent to a person that practices pranayama. Just like when you remember a dream during the day. You congratulate yourself upon having remembered it. Then you attempt to return to the memory of the dream but you can not! What happened? The physical event that triggered the recall is one thing. But dream logic and speed (vibration) is quite another. Dreams do not necessarily make sense to the conscious mind. In dream we move from image to image without the baggage of words. But that is not how we think when we are awake. When we are awake we think in terms of language. It is very cumbersome. The superconscious mind for that reason comes through the subconscious mind to avoid such limitations. It is the same reason we ‘like’ or ‘understand’ music even though’ the music has no words. The superconscious mind of intuition through which the soul operates can not be stifled by the left hemisphere with cumbersome language to express itself. A revelation will flash from ‘out of the blue’ to the right sphere and only after the fact will the left hemishpere/conscious mind pick up on it. But when that happens, it attempts to saddle the insight with words. And then distortion sets in and we find things like different religions in the world with different ideas about those same revelations. It is the left hemisphere attempting to understand the intuition that gives rise to all the different interpretations of religious experiences/insights. We have Allah. God. Shiva. Brahman. You name it. Then we have left hemisphere wars that fight in the names of these Gods. After all, it only makes sense there can only be one ‘right’ God. Mike Dubbeld

Response:

There are no dragons. The only heros there are in the world are the ones that know how to control the mind. Controlling the mind is the most difficult (and last) thing you can and will ever do. That is why you are here. To learn that lesson. That we are NOT our minds and our minds need be controlled with our will. By controlling the mind – which is part of nature itself – we control all the universe – both external and internal and gain mastery over it – gain freedom from it. There is no freedom in the world. There is only freedom FROM the world. This freedom is had only by concentration that leads to meditation and contemplation and samadhi. All the riddles nature reveal themselves to the one that controls the mind. All the mysteries of ancient holy literature. Revelations are frequent to a person that practices pranayama. Just like when you remember a dream during the day. You congratulate yourself upon having remembered it. Then you attempt to return to the memory of the dream but you can not! What happened? The physical event that triggered the recall is one thing. But dream logic and speed (vibration) is quite another. Dreams do not necessarily make sense to the conscious mind. In dream we move from image to image without the baggage of words. But that is not how we think when we are awake. When we are awake we think in terms of language. It is very cumbersome. The superconscious mind for that reason comes through the subconscious mind to avoid such limitations. It is the same reason we ‘like’ or ‘understand’ music even though’ the music has no words. The superconscious mind of intuition through which the soul operates can not be stifled by the left hemisphere with cumbersome language to express itself. A revelation will flash from ‘out of the blue’ to the right sphere and only after the fact will the left hemishpere/conscious mind pick up on it. But when that happens, it attempts to saddle the insight with words. And then distortion sets in and we find things like different religions in the world with different ideas about those same revelations. It is the left hemisphere attempting to understand the intuition that gives rise to all the different interpretations of religious experiences/insights. We have Allah. God. Shiva. Brahman. You name it. Then we have left hemisphere wars that fight in the names of these Gods. After all, it only makes sense there can only be one ‘right’ God. Mike Dubbeld

Response:

Question:

I did a naughty and did inversions at a workshop that cost a lot, and it stopped my flow completely.  I felt kind of sick afterwards.  I don’t reccommend it.  I wait till the 4th day into my mensus to include those postures, as well as backbends.  Forward bends and standing postures feel AWESOME during that time of the month, though! namaste Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

I did a naughty and did inversions at a workshop that cost a lot, and it stopped my flow completely.  I felt kind of sick afterwards.  I don’t reccommend it.  I wait till the 4th day into my mensus to include those postures, as well as backbends. Forward bends and standing postures feel AWESOME during that time of the month, though! namaste

That’s a good way to learn first hand why inversions aren’t recommended during menstruation!   A friend of mine says doing inversions during her period will either stop her flow  completely before it’s due to stop (not recommended!), or make her flow a lot heavier, depending on where she is in her flow. Forward bends, as you say, can feel really good during menstruation as long as one doesn’t press too hard on the abdomen doing a really tight forward bend. Resting your head on a bolster in forward bends during this time can be really soothing. Some people like to do supported standing poses during their period, using a wall or a ‘horse’ for support if their energy is a little low.  If their energy is really low, restorative  poses would be better.

Response:

In my yoga course, we were taught not to do positions that put pressure on the abdomen, such as the cobra, the locust, … well…quite a few asanas…as long as you don’t place pressure on your abdomen. — Namaste … Amanda Work from Home   –    www.hwionline.com  Access Code 1285 required Make extra cash (PT/FT)   OR  www.fortunesmiles.com/1285 — "In the beginning, the universe was created.  This has made some people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move." – Douglas Adams

Response:

        Hello Alicia,                         There are a number of reasons.         According to Iyengar Yoga Practice Women should         not practice Inversions and other poses that         put pressure on the abdominal area…For more         Specifics about this get "Yoga: A Gem for Women"         by Geeta S. Iyengar.                                                             -Alex           – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – List, I’ve read lots of literature on astrology, and have read in my sources that inverted postures should not be practiced by women during menstruation. Why is that? -Alicia SNow Whoops..looking at horoscopes and asking yoga questions don’t mix.. I mean to say I’ve read lots of literature on yoga..;-) -Alicia Snow

Response:

List, I’ve read lots of literature on astrology, and have read in my sources that inverted postures should not be practiced by women during menstruation. Why is that? U shd ask the one claiming above words…

Yes..I should, but those sources aren’t accessible. Like I’ve said, I’ve read them in books, even seen warnings on tapes.. -Alicia Snow

Response:

List, I’ve read lots of literature on astrology, and have read in my sources that inverted postures should not be practiced by women during menstruation. Why is that?

U shd ask the one claiming above words…

Response:

Hi Alicia, In my yoga class this week, a series of inverted asanas were part of the session.  Prior to beginning the series, our teacher mentioned that anyone menstruating should do a restorative pose instead. When practicing inverted asanas, the abdominal organs are manipulated. I think that the reason that avoiding these poses while menstruating is sometimes suggested is because of the possible discomfort these poses could cause.  In some of the books or articles I have read, I have seen this warning.  In others, there was no warning regarding practicing these poses while menstruating.  On some websites, I have seen reference to this as a personal preference issue…some women continue to practice these asanas while menstruating, some women do not. Melanie

Response:

Hi Alica – one concept about this is that menstruation is a flushing of old material from the body – so the womb’s lining is being flushed because it is no longer required as no egg has been fertilized etc.  The process of menses is a removing process of material that is not required by the body.  Some say the menses process is a cleansing and removing of toxins in the body.  The natural flow works with gravity to flow down and out of the body. During this short period of time – 3 – 5 days a month, it is considered a little unwise to turn the body upside down as this works against the body’s natural process and it is unwise to encourage unneeded material to stay in the body or return to the body. hope this assists, Colette Le Fort

Response:

I think not doing, or doing inversions is a personal decision, however it is not suggested because it interferes with prana and apana the upward and downward moving energy’s Peace Deva. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I think not doing, or doing inversions is a personal decision, however it is not suggested because it interferes with prana and apana the upward and downward moving energy’s

But it is apana prana that is responsible for things like excretion, sweating, menses, giving birth etc… I assume apana works in cooperation with gravity in this case, so it is not wise to do inversions. OM Shanti.

Response:

From my understanding, I agree with a few of the previous statements – that is, menstruation is a time when women are naturally eliminating toxins from the body – the natural flow being downward, with the aid of gravity.  Inversions act to disturb this natural flow, therefore, it is recommended that inversions are not to be done during this time..  

Response:

List, I’ve read lots of literature on astrology, and have read in my sources that inverted postures should not be practiced by women during menstruation. Why is that? -Alicia SNow

Response:

List, I’ve read lots of literature on astrology, and have read in my sources that inverted postures should not be practiced by women during menstruation. Why is that? -Alicia SNow

Whoops..looking at horoscopes and asking yoga questions don’t mix.. I mean to say I’ve read lots of literature on yoga..;-) -Alicia Snow

Response:

Question:

I am advised to sleep only 6 hours, to gain time for meditation. But I feel it is not enough for me. It’s better to start with enough sleep and when meditation deepens, you will gradualy need less sleep. Kind regards, Clemens

Response:

You are also told to lie on your left side when you are pregnant. Although I can’t wait to sleep on my back again!!! Leslie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have heard it said that if you sleep on your side, you should sleep on your right side.  This has to do with where your heart rests in your chest when you are in that position. In my yoga course, we were taught to sleep on the right side of the body (well, not actually sleep – it was just part of one of our meditation and breathing techniques) – to lie on this side, because the internal organs are very slightly "shifted" to the left in the body (e.g., the heart points very slightly to the left, the stomach is on the left, etc.) and so the left side of the body has a slightly higher temperature (you can demonstrate this for yourself by taking your awareness into your body and seeing which side is hotter – you will find that it is the left.), so to keep your body temperature even if you are lying down, lie on the right. HOWEVER, you may lie on the left-hand side of your body after a meal – this facilitates digestion. Namaste … Amanda "Never criticise someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticise them, you’re a mile away…, and you have their shoes." Work from Home   –    www.hwionline.com  Access Code 1285 required Make extra cash (PT/FT)   OR  www.fortunesmiles.com/1285

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Big grin : (LOL – Laugh Out Loud) ; – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Never criticise someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticise them, you’re a mile away…, and you have their shoes."

Response:

Hello Elin: Sleeping and dreaming are two of my favorite hobbies!  : I don’t believe there is one right answer here.  How much sleep do you think you need?  What happens when you get as much as you need?  When you don’t?  Are you a morning dove or a night owl?  Do you keep a regular schedule?  Do you work daytimes, evenings, or nights? I get cranky and mean without enough sleep.  For sleeping positions, on the back or side is better than on the belly.  Years ago I stopped sleeping with a pillow under my head when I’m on my back because it caused neck strain. When I’m lying on my side, I do use it.  I put a pillow under my knees when I’m on my back, and between my knees when I’m lying on my side.  These things feel better than the "regular way" of using pillows. Have you looked at "Back Care Basics" by Mary Pullig Schatz, MD yet?  It has some great advice for resting positions.  I think I’m addressing the physical part of your questions by saying "Listen to your body, get enough sleep, have good posture…"  Maybe you are interested in this question more at a spiritual level?  Some other reasons?  What have you been trying? Amy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Does anybody know if there are yoga recommendations about sleeping when to go to sleep, how long to sleep, when to wake up, on which side (or on your back?) to sleep, etc. More importantly do you know yoga techniques about dreaming and sleeping (after all these things get about one third of our lives). Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.   Elin

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A quote from Sting in the days of The Police. Shadows in the rain – Zenyatta Mondatta "Woke up in my clothes again this morning,  Don’t know exactly where I am.  And i should heed my doctors warning,  He does the best with me he can….Shadows in the rainnn waoum" ATM sleep gets about 1/6th of My Life come/go alone brother/sister. Who owns what? I think there can be some sort of mental strength in sleep deprevation which can as said by Iyengarawaken One to the truth with no reasoning or "while others sleep he is awake for the benefit of  One" Don’t get me wrong i have a very hard time with the thought of TAT TWAM ASI. Especially when dealing with my own emotions, moods, anger, sexuality and so on. So anyway sleep well i’m off to hang my washing out or something — — peace be the journey — http://home.freeuk.net/justin.horth

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Does anybody know if there are yoga recommendations about sleeping when to go to sleep, how long to sleep, when to wake up, on which side (or on your back?) to sleep, etc. More importantly do you know yoga techniques about dreaming and sleeping (after all these things get about one third of our lives). Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.   Elin

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Does anybody know if there are yoga recommendations about sleeping when to go to sleep, how long to sleep, when to wake up, on which side (or on your back?) to sleep, etc. More importantly do you know yoga techniques about dreaming and sleeping (after all these things get about one third of our lives). Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Elin

There is no such thing as "yoga recommendations". However Yoga is based on a vast body of Vedic knowledge.  Yogis in the past make claims as to what is the best foods, best way to communicate, best way to walk etc. After 2500 years of this, with the exceptions of the really important yoga recommendations (think Patanjali) there are a lot of contradictions. A person genuinely and actively following a yoga practice will find that as they come in contact with their inner stillness that it will influence their activities in subtle and powerful ways. Let your that infinite source inside of you make recommendations. That said I could write a book on sleep but let me summarize my views on sleep. If you have a back condition.  You should sleep on your back with your knees elevated by a pillow. This will relieve back strain.  Sleeping on your back seems to be the easiest on the body. I have heard it said that if you sleep on your side, you should sleep on your right side.  This has to do with where your heart rests in your chest when you are in that position. A consistent and regular Yoga practice should promote deep rejuvenating sleep. Sleep as long as your body needs it. After years of Yoga practice one will begin witnessing during sleep. This is awareness during your sleep and dreaming state.  Most people find this extremely blissful. I find it a little disconcerting. — ~Stu

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Question:

Variation is always good! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need an opinion,  I attended a yoga course years ago an after this I read many books on the argument continuing to practice. Knowing a discrete variety of asanas would you think is better decide a specific series and go on with that forever or to change it time to time, and in the latter how often change it ( daily weekly …) ?? Thanks in advance for your opinions !! An italian yogi Namaste

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I need an opinion,  I attended a yoga course years ago an after this I read many books on the argument continuing to practice. Knowing a discrete variety of asanas would you think is better decide a specific series and go on with that forever or to change it time to time, and in the latter how often change it ( daily weekly …) ?? Thanks in advance for your opinions !! An italian yogi Namaste

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Question:

Hi markus, Well, here’s some I have or read and liked that weren’t previously mentioned: Yoga/Asanas/Other physical Light on Pranayama – BKS Iyengar     Like Light on Yoga, but covers a lot more breath control practices than the later chapters of L.O.Y.   All sorts of great pictures. Yoga and You – Ester C Meyers     Basic asanas, large illustrations, a very good introduction, especially by people who feel light on yoga is too technical. Shambala guide to Yoga – Georg Feuerstein     Introduction to basic asanas, chakras, and spirtual philosphy.  Covers a lot of material in a small, easy to read book. Taoist Yoga – Lu K’uan Yu [Charles Luk]     Taoist meditation and visualization practices that bear some relation to chakras/kundalini in yoga.  an interesting, technical read. The Eight Pieces of Brocade – Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming     self described as a "Wai Dan Chi Kung exercise set for improving and maintaining health", the actual work is based on Marshal Yueh Fei ~1140 to improve the health of his soldiers.  Big pictures, slow movements. Inspiring reading?  What a large topic.   One book recently I owned, but unfortunately I’ve already loaned out two copies which I’ll never see again: "Japanese Death Poems – Written by Zen Monks and Haiku Poets on the Verge of Death " compiled by Yoel Hoffman.   Not only poems, but the lives and deaths of these monks and poets.   How can death be inspiring you ask? hmmm…read the book. …Rodney

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi! i am currently compiling a yoga book list for a yoga course. if anyone has read any books they would recomend to others, then maybe they could email me the details, or post a response to this article. the kind of topics i was thinking are: asana practice (anything from hatha yoga to power yoga, inc pranayama) other yogas (see the list on hari har singh’s yoga faq page!) yoga philosophy (patanjali, upanishads…) chakras inspiring reading (writings by the dalai lama,  celestine prophecy… a very open topic!) the topics are only a guide, so if you want to add other topics, please do! when it is finished i will post the compiled list to this news group! namaste! markus. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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<< hi! i am currently compiling a yoga book list for a yoga course. if anyone has read any books they would recomend to others, then maybe they could email me the details, or post a response to this article. the kind of topics i was thinking are: asana practice (anything from hatha yoga to power yoga, inc pranayama) other yogas (see the list on hari har singh’s yoga faq page!) yoga philosophy (patanjali, upanishads…) chakras inspiring reading (writings by the dalai lama,  celestine prophecy… a very open topic!) the topics are only a guide, so if you want to add other topics, please do! when it is finished i will post the compiled list to this news group! namaste! markus. To learn more about what truly is yoga visit: http://www.classicalyoga.org   Discover what is Yoga www.classicalyoga.org

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Four books come to mind: o We’re all doing time                - Bo Lozoff                 – Freedom thru yoga o Light on Yoga                          - BKS Iyengar            - Definative guide to asana practice o The Yoga Tradition                 – George Fuerestein – The definative guide to all of yoga save asana o Dancing in the Body of Light – Dona Holleman       – Another asana book but with Dona’s invaluable perspective. only available at www.donaholleman.com These are the only books I would grab if my house was burning. The top three are available at www.amazon.com. — Thanks and Namaste, John http://www.forbes.com/asap/97/1201/204.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi! i am currently compiling a yoga book list for a yoga course. if anyone has read any books they would recomend to others, then maybe they could email me the details, or post a response to this article. the kind of topics i was thinking are: asana practice (anything from hatha yoga to power yoga, inc pranayama) other yogas (see the list on hari har singh’s yoga faq page!) yoga philosophy (patanjali, upanishads…) chakras inspiring reading (writings by the dalai lama,  celestine prophecy… a very open topic!) the topics are only a guide, so if you want to add other topics, please do! when it is finished i will post the compiled list to this news group! namaste! markus. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

hi! i am currently compiling a yoga book list for a yoga course. if anyone has read any books they would recomend to others, then maybe they could email me the details, or post a response to this article. the kind of topics i was thinking are: asana practice (anything from hatha yoga to power yoga, inc pranayama) other yogas (see the list on hari har singh’s yoga faq page!) yoga philosophy (patanjali, upanishads…) chakras inspiring reading (writings by the dalai lama,  celestine prophecy… a very open topic!) the topics are only a guide, so if you want to add other topics, please do! when it is finished i will post the compiled list to this news group! namaste! markus. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

Hi! I am a medical student doing  a field study project on yoga and stress. How effective is yoga  in dealing with social, emotional and mental stress? How often should yoga be done to be efffective?

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Most of my 12 classmates in a yoga course are looking for stress relief.   A serious scientific study of yoga and stress relief would first have to ask the questions, "How can stress be measured and how can a double blind study be done?"   Those questions are easy to ask but difficult to answer. Good luck with your study.      John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! I am a medical student doing  a field study project on yoga and stress. How effective is yoga  in dealing with social, emotional and mental stress? How often should yoga be done to be efffective?

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Question:

Thanks Amy I am better,Its been only three days since it happened,and I see that it hurt a little less,and I am putting things in there  place. Now anger goes to the right persons not back to me.

<I say that a year from now, you may look on this new revelation as a blessing in diguise, as it was the wakeup call you needed to get you out of a relationship that was bringing you down in so many ways already. I believe you .I had a moment of total dispair but it was that a moment just like when you receive punch.But I am a feighter I already survive against all odds. I can do it again. I cant count on my family ,and sickness and a controling husband made me loose my  friends. Also I dont whant to impose on  others. I will be ok ,thank to you all ,by holing my hand through the worst of the storm . Can I give a big hug to all the one that post here to me and e-mail me. Thank you again,I will really be ok. Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh Honey, don’t give up hope.  There may not be anything you can do about your husband and his very insensitive mistress, but you can look after yourself and stick him for the bill.  the heartbreak passes, believe me, and life can be good again.  Reach out to your family and old friends.  Don’t go through this alone. Amy

Response:

God, another WHINER. Should I quote those who have told ME that I’d be doing the world a FAVOR if I ended it all? Take their words and apply them to YOU, please. Ray Gordon, Author The Player’s Encyclopedia: Everything you need to know about seduction http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html

Ray ,stupidity is not a handicap ,go park somewhere else. Elise

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Hello Janie Thank you for your two post . The first ,yes I have a sense of humor and it help me go through lots of bad stuff. The second post: I will take a look at it.That morning that I made the choice to open my computer instead of opening the bottles,my choice was make,I was going to stay and fight. Because of the help I found here I know it will be better. Because of my childhood I tend to isolate myself when I hurt.(solitude was security) I try to read as many posts as  I can.Each one touch me ,every one here know,been there. Man or woman the pain is the same. So for now it is one day at a time,I cant plan for longer then that. But I am definitly not giving up.Like some one said if you kill yourself they win. Big hug Janie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Amy I am better,Its been only three days since it happened,and I see that it hurt a little less,and I am putting things in there  place. Now anger goes to the right persons not back to me. Elise, I’m glad to see you found more stable footing as the week went on.  You started out in a pretty scary place, a place I am all too familiar with. Did you have a chance to look into the links on our newsgroup website? There’s one sub-page we started some time back, when another poster was feeling suicidal and we wanted to find a way to help (click on "Divorce Hurts…..But It Doesn’t Mean The End Of Your World!!!  Words of Wisdom and Encouragement From the Posters of alt.support.divorce" from the main page at http://home.earthlink.net/~mackool/asd/ ). Keep posting and sharing – even when you hurt this bad, there will be times when you find you can help someone else also.  That will help you build your confidence, which will go a long way toward lessening the intensity of these feelings you’re experiencing right now. Warmly, Janie — The reason why rivers and seas receive the homage of a hundred mountain streams is that they keep below them.  – Lao Tse

Response:

– A Broken Heart Aid Group http://Relationships.HotAvenue.com Association of I Ching Divination http://IChing.HotAvenue.com Association of Feng Shui http://FengShui.HotAvenue.com Association of Chinese Astrology and Divination http://ChineseAstrology.HotAvenue.com Association of Pagan and Witchcraft http://Pagan.HotAvenue.com Association of Astrology http://Astrology.HotAvenue.com Association of Tarot Divination http://Tarot.HotAvenue.com Association of Taoism http://Tao.HotAvenue.com Association of Buddhism http://Buddhism.HotAvenue.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It sounds like you’ve really been through an awful time in your life, but I promise you, it is possible to heal and be happy.  Life CAN be good.  YOUR life can become good.  Please, please give it a chance.  Please, put the pills away and seek help.  Is there a friend or family member you can talk to?  A pastor?  Can you see a counselor?  If you have been isolated, then often the first step toward healing is to get back in contact with others. You mentioned a daughter – no matter how old you are, and how old your daughter is, your suicide would hurt her horribly, and she would never get over it.  Do you have other children?  If you do, they need you too. There are a number of wise and wonderful people on this newsgroup who will no doubt give you much advice and encouragement.  (There are a few clods, too, but if you give people a chance you will soon learn who is who.) There is so much to live for – your daughter, other friends and family, and yourself.   Your husband may have hurt you, but there are wonderful people in the world who will care about you.  Make some friends here, if you don’t have anybody you can talk to face to face.  Reading and participating in this newsgroup helped me a lot, and I think it will help you.  Let people, both here and in other parts of your life, know what is going on so they can help. It is true what they say, that "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem".  There are others here who can give you much better advice and counsel than I can, but I may have been the first to read your post, and just wanted to take the time to say I care, and there are others who will care, too.  Please post again and let us know how you are.  I would really like to hear from you again.  Feel free to e-mail if you would like. S.B. Hello I am new here.This is like a last hope.I just found out last friday that my husband was having an affair with a women for the last seven months. Been maried for 32 years.For all those year he was slowly isolating me from my family ,my friends.He was a very controling and angry person. I am affraid to leave.I am also sick.(have a rare desease but was strong enough to work in my own business that I started myself and  pay lots of his dets during the last years. His mistress called me friday night to tell me to let him go to her,that he did not love me anny more etc… I did not know  and was close to going crazy from the pain it cause me to hear that. I still am.After confronting him ,he tell me that he love me that he had broke up with her two weeks ago,… Can I believe him?I dont know.He did so much,Lied so much.Made me and my daughter loose two houses,and find out just weeks before that we where loosing them. I keep telling him that love is not suppose to hurt. Each time he do something like that I fergive him,I know I let him get away with all that,but I dont have a choice. If I were young and healthy I would be out so fast. And I am not staying for the money he never keep a penny even with a penaion and other revenues.I know there are good men,but never been lucky enough to have them aroud me. This morning I am wrigting this and my bottles of pills are next to me. I am hoping as a last resort to find somewere ,a small reason to live.My life been hell from the beginning(incest,rape,abuse)I have enought.THere are only so much that a person can take alone. Please,please give me a reason to live ,I dont whant to die ,but see no choice. Sorry for the long post,and I have to stop cant see with the tears in my eyes. Thank you for reading me . Elise P S Sorry for my spelling mistakes.

Response:

Thank you so much for caring,I was hoping so much for someone to answer me you all did. It help so much,I did put away the pills,I am so very hurt .but each of your words is helping. Jeff I will keep your phone number and call you it gets to bad,and I thank you. I swing to hope  to dispair all the time. But you are right I will find help. You know  I am not depress I am angry,hurt,and I am turning this anger toward me,instead of my husband. As for my daughter she is 31 and  she is,you are right my  reason to live. I love her more then myself. With my husband affair ,,it is the lies that hurt the most .Most of you know what I am talking about.

You are so very right Elise–far too many of us have been where you are at now. The good news is that fair number of us are where *we* are now, after hanging on through the hurt and anger, to find a far better place than where we were before. I hope you can trust me enough to believe it when I say that a year from now, you may look on this new revelation as a blessing in diguise, as it was the wakeup call you needed to get you out of a relationship that was bringing you down in so many ways already.   If I were not sick it would be a different  thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Luckyly I am finacialy idependant(well almost) I guess luck have nothing to do with it. I have started a business to years ago ,that I run from my laptop (often in bed when to sick.) And it is going very well.I been working at it 12 hours a day for those two years. I had to do it ,my husband made us loose two houses because of is bad administration of money.Now I make  and keep my own.He was alway controling everything and me. And I dont say that all men are bad ,far from that . Even with all I had to go through I still believe in the goodness of peoples. This the only reason that I posted here this morning.I f you dont mind I will stay with you all for a while Thank you so much for that little ray of hope and your friendship offerred so kindly. This is more then I had in a long time. Elise You are going through a very traumatic time in your life.  As others have said, it is temporary.  There is a light at the end of the tunnel.  The problem is that you cannot see the light and so you don’t believe it. You do not need to go through these darks days alone.  Others can help you find your way back into the sunlight.  Many of them are right here. Others can be found  at your local suicide and crisis intervention center a short phone call away, and then there are therpists which your physician or area mental health agency can refer you to. Whatever you do.  Do not isolate yourself from other caring people.  If you just keep breathing, and if you’re patient with yourself, you will get through this and the dark days will pass. Just breathe. ==Roger== — ===Rog’=== Hello I am new here.This is like a last hope.I just found out last friday that my husband was having an affair with a women for the last seven months. Been maried for 32 years.For all those year he was slowly isolating me from my family ,my friends.He was a very controling and angry person. I am affraid to leave.I am also sick.(have a rare desease but was strong enough to work in my own business that I started myself and  pay lots of his dets during the last years. His mistress called me friday night to tell me to let him go to her,that he did not love me anny more etc… I did not know  and was close to going crazy from the pain it cause me to hear that. I still am.After confronting him ,he tell me that he love me that he had broke up with her two weeks ago,… Can I believe him?I dont know.He did so much,Lied so much.Made me and my daughter loose two houses,and find out just weeks before that we where loosing them. I keep telling him that love is not suppose to hurt. Each time he do something like that I fergive him,I know I let him get away with all that,but I dont have a choice. If I were young and healthy I would be out so fast. And I am not staying for the money he never keep a penny even with a penaion and other revenues.I know there are good men,but never been lucky enough to have them aroud me. This morning I am wrigting this and my bottles of pills are next to me. I am hoping as a last resort to find somewere ,a small reason to live.My life been hell from the beginning(incest,rape,abuse)I have enought.THere are only so much that a person can take alone. Please,please give me a reason to live ,I dont whant to die ,but see no choice. Sorry for the long post,and I have to stop cant see with the tears in my eyes. Thank you for reading me . Elise P S Sorry for my spelling mistakes.

—– Dr. Kathryn Litherland, Managing Editor Journal of Latin American Anthropology "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, concerned citizens can change the world.  Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has."                                         –Margaret Mead http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~lither

Response:

Thanks Cal I just look at her site ,very nice I will read it tonight. Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Elise, You may want to check out the ASD website which is: http://home.earthlink.net/~mackool/asd One of our regulars, Janie, who WILL be responding to you when she gets a chance (of that I’m certain), has done a fabulous job of updating and maintaining this website, with a list of who’s who, quotes, stories, and a list of recourses available. You can get through this….so many of us here are willing to help you through the toughest times. Take care, Cal~ You are all so nice,thanks Jeff,I already found so much support in here. When I posted this morning I did not have much hope,but I am overwhelm by the intelligent,constructive and caring e-mails I got. Thank you helping getting my life and my pride back. PS Thanks Mary Lou Elise No, I thank YOU! I have no idea who you are or where you are from but I thought about you all morning. No matter how hard it gets, tell youself you will not cave in.  I too, just joined this newsgroup and I’m already glad I did. There are SO MANY helpful people here that give honest advice from their experiences. I just wish I had known about this during the ‘dark days’ of my divorce. I must admit though, some stories I read here bring back a lot of bad memories but it helps me to realize that I have made it through the worst time of my life. You will too! Jeff Thank you so much for caring,I was hoping so much for someone to answer me you all did. It help so much,I did put away the pills,I am so very hurt .but each of your words is helping. Jeff I will keep your phone number and call you it gets to bad,and I thank you. I swing to hope  to dispair all the time. But you are right I will find help. You know  I am not depress I am angry,hurt,and I am turning this anger toward me,instead of my husband. As for my daughter she is 31 and  she is,you are right my  reason to live. I love her more then myself. With my husband affair ,,it is the lies that hurt the most .Most of you know what I am talking about. If I were not sick it would be a different  thing. Luckyly I am finacialy idependant(well almost) I guess luck have nothing to do with it. I have started a business to years ago ,that I run from my laptop (often in bed when to sick.) And it is going very well.I been working at it 12 hours a day for those two years. I had to do it ,my husband made us loose two houses because of is bad administration of money.Now I make  and keep my own.He was alway controling everything and me. And I dont say that all men are bad ,far from that . Even with all I had to go through I still believe in the goodness of peoples. This the only reason that I posted here this morning.I f you dont mind I will stay with you all for a while Thank you so much for that little ray of hope and your friendship offerred so kindly. This is more then I had in a long time. Elise You are going through a very traumatic time in your life.  As others have said, it is temporary.  There is a light at the end of the tunnel. The problem is that you cannot see the light and so you don’t believe it. You do not need to go through these darks days alone.  Others can help you find your way back into the sunlight.  Many of them are right here. Others can be found  at your local suicide and crisis intervention center a short phone call away, and then there are therpists which your physician or area mental health agency can refer you to. Whatever you do.  Do not isolate yourself from other caring people. If you just keep breathing, and if you’re patient with yourself, you will get through this and the dark days will pass. Just breathe. ==Roger== — ===Rog’=== Hello I am new here.This is like a last hope.I just found out last friday that my husband was having an affair with a women for the last seven months. Been maried for 32 years.For all those year he was slowly isolating me from my family ,my friends.He was a very controling and angry person. I am affraid to leave.I am also sick.(have a rare desease but was strong enough to work in my own business that I started myself and  pay lots of his dets during the last years. His mistress called me friday night to tell me to let him go to her,that he did not love me anny more etc… I did not know  and was close to going crazy from the pain it cause me to hear that. I still am.After confronting him ,he tell me that he love me that he had broke up with her two weeks ago,… Can I believe him?I dont know.He did so much,Lied so much.Made me and my daughter loose two houses,and find out just weeks before that we where loosing them. I keep telling him that love is not suppose to hurt. Each time he do something like that I fergive him,I know I let him get away with all that,but I dont have a choice. If I were young and healthy I would be out so fast. And I am not staying for the money he never keep a penny even with a penaion and other revenues.I know there are good men,but never been lucky enough to have them aroud me. This morning I am wrigting this and my bottles of pills are next to me. I am hoping as a last resort to find somewere ,a small reason to live.My life been hell from the beginning(incest,rape,abuse)I have enought.THere are only so much that a person can take alone. Please,please give me a reason to live ,I dont whant to die ,but see no choice. Sorry for the long post,and I have to stop cant see with the tears in my eyes. Thank you for reading me . Elise P S Sorry for my spelling mistakes.

Response:

Ray, you need to seek counseling more than Elise does. And your website sucks. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Suicide is not the answer, it’s a cowards way out. I do not mean to be harsh. Actually, apathy is the coward’s way out. Ray Gordon, Author The Player’s Encyclopedia: Everything you need to know about seduction http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html

Response:

Oh Honey, don’t give up hope.  There may not be anything you can do about your husband and his very insensitive mistress, but you can look after yourself and stick him for the bill.  the heartbreak passes, believe me, and life can be good again.  Reach out to your family and old friends.  Don’t go through this alone. Amy

Response:

Elise, You may want to check out the ASD website which is: http://home.earthlink.net/~mackool/asd One of our regulars, Janie, who WILL be responding to you when she gets a chance (of that I’m certain), has done a fabulous job of updating and maintaining this website, with a list of who’s who, quotes, stories, and a list of recourses available. You can get through this….so many of us here are willing to help you through the toughest times. Take care, Cal~

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are all so nice,thanks Jeff,I already found so much support in here. When I posted this morning I did not have much hope,but I am overwhelm by the intelligent,constructive and caring e-mails I got. Thank you helping getting my life and my pride back. PS Thanks Mary Lou Elise No, I thank YOU! I have no idea who you are or where you are from but I thought about you all morning. No matter how hard it gets, tell youself you will not cave in.  I too, just joined this newsgroup and I’m already glad I did. There are SO MANY helpful people here that give honest advice from their experiences. I just wish I had known about this during the ‘dark days’ of my divorce. I must admit though, some stories I read here bring back a lot of bad memories but it helps me to realize that I have made it through the worst time of my life. You will too! Jeff Thank you so much for caring,I was hoping so much for someone to answer me you all did. It help so much,I did put away the pills,I am so very hurt .but each of your words is helping. Jeff I will keep your phone number and call you it gets to bad,and I thank you. I swing to hope  to dispair all the time. But you are right I will find help. You know  I am not depress I am angry,hurt,and I am turning this anger toward me,instead of my husband. As for my daughter she is 31 and  she is,you are right my  reason to live. I love her more then myself. With my husband affair ,,it is the lies that hurt the most .Most of you know what I am talking about. If I were not sick it would be a different  thing. Luckyly I am finacialy idependant(well almost) I guess luck have nothing to do with it. I have started a business to years ago ,that I run from my laptop (often in bed when to sick.) And it is going very well.I been working at it 12 hours a day for those two years. I had to do it ,my husband made us loose two houses because of is bad administration of money.Now I make  and keep my own.He was alway controling everything and me. And I dont say that all men are bad ,far from that . Even with all I had to go through I still believe in the goodness of peoples. This the only reason that I posted here this morning.I f you dont mind I will stay with you all for a while Thank you so much for that little ray of hope and your friendship offerred so kindly. This is more then I had in a long time. Elise You are going through a very traumatic time in your life.  As others have said, it is temporary.  There is a light at the end of the tunnel. The problem is that you cannot see the light and so you don’t believe it. You do not need to go through these darks days alone.  Others can help you find your way back into the sunlight.  Many of them are right here. Others can be found  at your local suicide and crisis intervention center a short phone call away, and then there are therpists which your physician or area mental health agency can refer you to. Whatever you do.  Do not isolate yourself from other caring people. If you just keep breathing, and if you’re patient with yourself, you will get through this and the dark days will pass. Just breathe. ==Roger== — ===Rog’=== Hello I am new here.This is like a last hope.I just found out last friday that my husband was having an affair with a women for the last seven months. Been maried for 32 years.For all those year he was slowly isolating me from my family ,my friends.He was a very controling and angry person. I am affraid to leave.I am also sick.(have a rare desease but was strong enough to work in my own business that I started myself and  pay lots of his dets during the last years. His mistress called me friday night to tell me to let him go to her,that he did not love me anny more etc… I did not know  and was close to going crazy from the pain it cause me to hear that. I still am.After confronting him ,he tell me that he love me that he had broke up with her two weeks ago,… Can I believe him?I dont know.He did so much,Lied so much.Made me and my daughter loose two houses,and find out just weeks before that we where loosing them. I keep telling him that love is not suppose to hurt. Each time he do something like that I fergive him,I know I let him get away with all that,but I dont have a choice. If I were young and healthy I would be out so fast. And I am not staying for the money he never keep a penny even with a penaion and other revenues.I know there are good men,but never been lucky enough to have them aroud me. This morning I am wrigting this and my bottles of pills are next to me. I am hoping as a last resort to find somewere ,a small reason to live.My life been hell from the beginning(incest,rape,abuse)I have enought.THere are only so much that a person can take alone. Please,please give me a reason to live ,I dont whant to die ,but see no choice. Sorry for the long post,and I have to stop cant see with the tears in my eyes. Thank you for reading me . Elise P S Sorry for my spelling mistakes.

Response:

Thank you so much for caring,I was hoping so much for someone to answer me you all did. It help so much,I did put away the pills,I am so very hurt .but each of your words is helping.

Good.  I didn’t see your first post until this one followed, and I’m glad you’re feeling a bit better about things.  Keep in contact with people, and don’t isolate yourself.  You’re in my prayers.

Response:

No, I thank YOU! I have no idea who you are or where you are from but I thought about you all morning. No matter how hard it gets, tell youself you will not cave in.  I too, just joined this newsgroup and I’m already glad I did. There are SO MANY helpful people here that give honest advice from their experiences. I just wish I had known about this during the ‘dark days’ of my divorce. I must admit though, some stories I read here bring back a lot of bad memories but it helps me to realize that I have made it through the worst time of my life. You will too! Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you so much for caring,I was hoping so much for someone to answer me you all did. It help so much,I did put away the pills,I am so very hurt .but each of your words is helping. Jeff I will keep your phone number and call you it gets to bad,and I thank you. I swing to hope  to dispair all the time. But you are right I will find help. You know  I am not depress I am angry,hurt,and I am turning this anger toward me,instead of my husband. As for my daughter she is 31 and  she is,you are right my  reason to live. I love her more then myself. With my husband affair ,,it is the lies that hurt the most .Most of you know what I am talking about. If I were not sick it would be a different  thing. Luckyly I am finacialy idependant(well almost) I guess luck have nothing to do with it. I have started a business to years ago ,that I run from my laptop (often in bed when to sick.) And it is going very well.I been working at it 12 hours a day for those two years. I had to do it ,my husband made us loose two houses because of is bad administration of money.Now I make  and keep my own.He was alway controling everything and me. And I dont say that all men are bad ,far from that . Even with all I had to go through I still believe in the goodness of peoples. This the only reason that I posted here this morning.I f you dont mind I will stay with you all for a while Thank you so much for that little ray of hope and your friendship offerred so kindly. This is more then I had in a long time. Elise You are going through a very traumatic time in your life.  As others have said, it is temporary.  There is a light at the end of the tunnel.  The problem is that you cannot see the light and so you don’t believe it. You do not need to go through these darks days alone.  Others can help you find your way back into the sunlight.  Many of them are right here. Others can be found  at your local suicide and crisis intervention center a short phone call away, and then there are therpists which your physician or area mental health agency can refer you to. Whatever you do.  Do not isolate yourself from other caring people.  If you just keep breathing, and if you’re patient with yourself, you will get through this and the dark days will pass. Just breathe. ==Roger== — ===Rog’=== Hello I am new here.This is like a last hope.I just found out last friday that my husband was having an affair with a women for the last seven months. Been maried for 32 years.For all those year he was slowly isolating me from my family ,my friends.He was a very controling and angry person. I am affraid to leave.I am also sick.(have a rare desease but was strong enough to work in my own business that I started myself and  pay lots of his dets during the last years. His mistress called me friday night to tell me to let him go to her,that he did not love me anny more etc… I did not know  and was close to going crazy from the pain it cause me to hear that. I still am.After confronting him ,he tell me that he love me that he had broke up with her two weeks ago,… Can I believe him?I dont know.He did so much,Lied so much.Made me and my daughter loose two houses,and find out just weeks before that we where loosing them. I keep telling him that love is not suppose to hurt. Each time he do something like that I fergive him,I know I let him get away with all that,but I dont have a choice. If I were young and healthy I would be out so fast. And I am not staying for the money he never keep a penny even with a penaion and other revenues.I know there are good men,but never been lucky enough to have them aroud me. This morning I am wrigting this and my bottles of pills are next to me. I am hoping as a last resort to find somewere ,a small reason to live.My life been hell from the beginning(incest,rape,abuse)I have enought.THere are only so much that a person can take alone. Please,please give me a reason to live ,I dont whant to die ,but see no choice. Sorry for the long post,and I have to stop cant see with the tears in my eyes. Thank you for reading me . Elise P S Sorry for my spelling mistakes.

Response:

You are all so nice,thanks Jeff,I already found so much support in here. When I posted this morning I did not have much hope,but I am overwhelm by the intelligent,constructive and caring e-mails I got. Thank you helping getting my life and my pride back. PS Thanks Mary Lou Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, I thank YOU! I have no idea who you are or where you are from but I thought about you all morning. No matter how hard it gets, tell youself you will not cave in.  I too, just joined this newsgroup and I’m already glad I did. There are SO MANY helpful people here that give honest advice from their experiences. I just wish I had known about this during the ‘dark days’ of my divorce. I must admit though, some stories I read here bring back a lot of bad memories but it helps me to realize that I have made it through the worst time of my life. You will too! Jeff Thank you so much for caring,I was hoping so much for someone to answer me you all did. It help so much,I did put away the pills,I am so very hurt .but each of your words is helping. Jeff I will keep your phone number and call you it gets to bad,and I thank you. I swing to hope  to dispair all the time. But you are right I will find help. You know  I am not depress I am angry,hurt,and I am turning this anger toward me,instead of my husband. As for my daughter she is 31 and  she is,you are right my  reason to live. I love her more then myself. With my husband affair ,,it is the lies that hurt the most .Most of you know what I am talking about. If I were not sick it would be a different  thing. Luckyly I am finacialy idependant(well almost) I guess luck have nothing to do with it. I have started a business to years ago ,that I run from my laptop (often in bed when to sick.) And it is going very well.I been working at it 12 hours a day for those two years. I had to do it ,my husband made us loose two houses because of is bad administration of money.Now I make  and keep my own.He was alway controling everything and me. And I dont say that all men are bad ,far from that . Even with all I had to go through I still believe in the goodness of peoples. This the only reason that I posted here this morning.I f you dont mind I will stay with you all for a while Thank you so much for that little ray of hope and your friendship offerred so kindly. This is more then I had in a long time. Elise You are going through a very traumatic time in your life.  As others have said, it is temporary.  There is a light at the end of the tunnel. The problem is that you cannot see the light and so you don’t believe it. You do not need to go through these darks days alone.  Others can help you find your way back into the sunlight.  Many of them are right here. Others can be found  at your local suicide and crisis intervention center a short phone call away, and then there are therpists which your physician or area mental health agency can refer you to. Whatever you do.  Do not isolate yourself from other caring people. If you just keep breathing, and if you’re patient with yourself, you will get through this and the dark days will pass. Just breathe. ==Roger== — ===Rog’=== Hello I am new here.This is like a last hope.I just found out last friday that my husband was having an affair with a women for the last seven months. Been maried for 32 years.For all those year he was slowly isolating me from my family ,my friends.He was a very controling and angry person. I am affraid to leave.I am also sick.(have a rare desease but was strong enough to work in my own business that I started myself and  pay lots of his dets during the last years. His mistress called me friday night to tell me to let him go to her,that he did not love me anny more etc… I did not know  and was close to going crazy from the pain it cause me to hear that. I still am.After confronting him ,he tell me that he love me that he had broke up with her two weeks ago,… Can I believe him?I dont know.He did so much,Lied so much.Made me and my daughter loose two houses,and find out just weeks before that we where loosing them. I keep telling him that love is not suppose to hurt. Each time he do something like that I fergive him,I know I let him get away with all that,but I dont have a choice. If I were young and healthy I would be out so fast. And I am not staying for the money he never keep a penny even with a penaion and other revenues.I know there are good men,but never been lucky enough to have them aroud me. This morning I am wrigting this and my bottles of pills are next to me. I am hoping as a last resort to find somewere ,a small reason to live.My life been hell from the beginning(incest,rape,abuse)I have enought.THere are only so much that a person can take alone. Please,please give me a reason to live ,I dont whant to die ,but see no choice. Sorry for the long post,and I have to stop cant see with the tears in my eyes. Thank you for reading me . Elise P S Sorry for my spelling mistakes.

Response:

Hello I am new here.This is like a last hope.I just found out last friday that my husband was having an affair with a women for the last seven months. Been maried for 32 years.For all those year he was slowly isolating me from my family ,my friends.He was a very controling and angry person. I am affraid to leave.I am also sick.(have a rare desease but was strong enough to work in my own business that I started myself and  pay lots of his dets during the last years. His mistress called me friday night to tell me to let him go to her,that he did not love me anny more etc… I did not know  and was close to going crazy from the pain it cause me to hear that. I still am.After confronting him ,he tell me that he love me that he had broke up with her two weeks ago,… Can I believe him?I dont know.He did so much,Lied so much.Made me and my daughter loose two houses,and find out just weeks before that we where loosing them. I keep telling him that love is not suppose to hurt. Each time he do something like that I fergive him,I know I let him get away with all that,but I dont have a choice. If I were young and healthy I would be out so fast. And I am not staying for the money he never keep a penny even with a penaion and other revenues.I know there are good men,but never been lucky enough to have them aroud me. This morning I am wrigting this and my bottles of pills are next to me. I am hoping as a last resort to find somewere ,a small reason to live.My life been hell from the beginning(incest,rape,abuse)I have enought.THere are only so much that a person can take alone. Please,please give me a reason to live ,I dont whant to die ,but see no choice. Sorry for the long post,and I have to stop cant see with the tears in my eyes. Thank you for reading me . Elise P S Sorry for my spelling mistakes.

Response:

It sounds like you’ve really been through an awful time in your life, but I promise you, it is possible to heal and be happy.  Life CAN be good.  YOUR life can become good.  Please, please give it a chance.  Please, put the pills away and seek help.  Is there a friend or family member you can talk to?  A pastor?  Can you see a counselor?  If you have been isolated, then often the first step toward healing is to get back in contact with others. You mentioned a daughter – no matter how old you are, and how old your daughter is, your suicide would hurt her horribly, and she would never get over it.  Do you have other children?  If you do, they need you too. There are a number of wise and wonderful people on this newsgroup who will no doubt give you much advice and encouragement.  (There are a few clods, too, but if you give people a chance you will soon learn who is who.) There is so much to live for – your daughter, other friends and family, and yourself.   Your husband may have hurt you, but there are wonderful people in the world who will care about you.  Make some friends here, if you don’t have anybody you can talk to face to face.  Reading and participating in this newsgroup helped me a lot, and I think it will help you.  Let people, both here and in other parts of your life, know what is going on so they can help. It is true what they say, that "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem".  There are others here who can give you much better advice and counsel than I can, but I may have been the first to read your post, and just wanted to take the time to say I care, and there are others who will care, too.  Please post again and let us know how you are.  I would really like to hear from you again.  Feel free to e-mail if you would like. S.B.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello I am new here.This is like a last hope.I just found out last friday that my husband was having an affair with a women for the last seven months. Been maried for 32 years.For all those year he was slowly isolating me from my family ,my friends.He was a very controling and angry person. I am affraid to leave.I am also sick.(have a rare desease but was strong enough to work in my own business that I started myself and  pay lots of his dets during the last years. His mistress called me friday night to tell me to let him go to her,that he did not love me anny more etc… I did not know  and was close to going crazy from the pain it cause me to hear that. I still am.After confronting him ,he tell me that he love me that he had broke up with her two weeks ago,… Can I believe him?I dont know.He did so much,Lied so much.Made me and my daughter loose two houses,and find out just weeks before that we where loosing them. I keep telling him that love is not suppose to hurt. Each time he do something like that I fergive him,I know I let him get away with all that,but I dont have a choice. If I were young and healthy I would be out so fast. And I am not staying for the money he never keep a penny even with a penaion and other revenues.I know there are good men,but never been lucky enough to have them aroud me. This morning I am wrigting this and my bottles of pills are next to me. I am hoping as a last resort to find somewere ,a small reason to live.My life been hell from the beginning(incest,rape,abuse)I have enought.THere are only so much that a person can take alone. Please,please give me a reason to live ,I dont whant to die ,but see no choice. Sorry for the long post,and I have to stop cant see with the tears in my eyes. Thank you for reading me . Elise P S Sorry for my spelling mistakes.

Response:

Suicide is not the answer, it’s a cowards way out. I do not mean to be harsh. You have a child, how ever old she is she still needs her mother, think of her and her future, some day she may be a mother and you would be missing out on Grandchildren. I know it hurts right now, and I have been where you are as far as pain goes, I have thought the same way that I should just do away with myself.. But I have choldren who needed me, and weather I like it or not I am needed and it takes more currage to go on and eventually come out of it than just give up.

Response:

You are going through a very traumatic time in your life.  As others have said, it is temporary.  There is a light at the end of the tunnel.  The problem is that you cannot see the light and so you don’t believe it. You do not need to go through these darks days alone.  Others can help you find your way back into the sunlight.  Many of them are right here.  Others can be found  at your local suicide and crisis intervention center a short phone call away, and then there are therpists which your physician or area mental health agency can refer you to. Whatever you do.  Do not isolate yourself from other caring people.  If you just keep breathing, and if you’re patient with yourself, you will get through this and the dark days will pass. Just breathe. ==Roger== — ===Rog’===

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello I am new here.This is like a last hope.I just found out last friday that my husband was having an affair with a women for the last seven months. Been maried for 32 years.For all those year he was slowly isolating me from my family ,my friends.He was a very controling and angry person. I am affraid to leave.I am also sick.(have a rare desease but was strong enough to work in my own business that I started myself and  pay lots of his dets during the last years. His mistress called me friday night to tell me to let him go to her,that he did not love me anny more etc… I did not know  and was close to going crazy from the pain it cause me to hear that. I still am.After confronting him ,he tell me that he love me that he had broke up with her two weeks ago,… Can I believe him?I dont know.He did so much,Lied so much.Made me and my daughter loose two houses,and find out just weeks before that we where loosing them. I keep telling him that love is not suppose to hurt. Each time he do something like that I fergive him,I know I let him get away with all that,but I dont have a choice. If I were young and healthy I would be out so fast. And I am not staying for the money he never keep a penny even with a penaion and other revenues.I know there are good men,but never been lucky enough to have them aroud me. This morning I am wrigting this and my bottles of pills are next to me. I am hoping as a last resort to find somewere ,a small reason to live.My life been hell from the beginning(incest,rape,abuse)I have enought.THere are only so much that a person can take alone. Please,please give me a reason to live ,I dont whant to die ,but see no choice. Sorry for the long post,and I have to stop cant see with the tears in my eyes. Thank you for reading me . Elise P S Sorry for my spelling mistakes.

Response:

Elise…I have sent you my phone number via e-mail…please use it. Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello I am new here.This is like a last hope.I just found out last friday that my husband was having an affair with a women for the last seven months. Been maried for 32 years.For all those year he was slowly isolating me from my family ,my friends.He was a very controling and angry person. I am affraid to leave.I am also sick.(have a rare desease but was strong enough to work in my own business that I started myself and  pay lots of his dets during the last years. His mistress called me friday night to tell me to let him go to her,that he did not love me anny more etc… I did not know  and was close to going crazy from the pain it cause me to hear that. I still am.After confronting him ,he tell me that he love me that he had broke up with her two weeks ago,… Can I believe him?I dont know.He did so much,Lied so much.Made me and my daughter loose two houses,and find out just weeks before that we where loosing them. I keep telling him that love is not suppose to hurt. Each time he do something like that I fergive him,I know I let him get away with all that,but I dont have a choice. If I were young and healthy I would be out so fast. And I am not staying for the money he never keep a penny even with a penaion and other revenues.I know there are good men,but never been lucky enough to have them aroud me. This morning I am wrigting this and my bottles of pills are next to me. I am hoping as a last resort to find somewere ,a small reason to live.My life been hell from the beginning(incest,rape,abuse)I have enought.THere are only so much that a person can take alone. Please,please give me a reason to live ,I dont whant to die ,but see no choice. Sorry for the long post,and I have to stop cant see with the tears in my eyes. Thank you for reading me . Elise P S Sorry for my spelling mistakes.

Response:

Thank you so much for caring,I was hoping so much for someone to answer me you all did. It help so much,I did put away the pills,I am so very hurt .but each of your words is helping. Jeff I will keep your phone number and call you it gets to bad,and I thank you. I swing to hope  to dispair all the time. But you are right I will find help. You know  I am not depress I am angry,hurt,and I am turning this anger toward me,instead of my husband. As for my daughter she is 31 and  she is,you are right my  reason to live. I love her more then myself. With my husband affair ,,it is the lies that hurt the most .Most of you know what I am talking about. If I were not sick it would be a different  thing. Luckyly I am finacialy idependant(well almost) I guess luck have nothing to do with it. I have started a business to years ago ,that I run from my laptop (often in bed when to sick.) And it is going very well.I been working at it 12 hours a day for those two years. I had to do it ,my husband made us loose two houses because of is bad administration of money.Now I make  and keep my own.He was alway controling everything and me. And I dont say that all men are bad ,far from that . Even with all I had to go through I still believe in the goodness of peoples. This the only reason that I posted here this morning.I f you dont mind I will stay with you all for a while Thank you so much for that little ray of hope and your friendship offerred so kindly. This is more then I had in a long time. Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are going through a very traumatic time in your life.  As others have said, it is temporary.  There is a light at the end of the tunnel.  The problem is that you cannot see the light and so you don’t believe it. You do not need to go through these darks days alone.  Others can help you find your way back into the sunlight.  Many of them are right here. Others can be found  at your local suicide and crisis intervention center a short phone call away, and then there are therpists which your physician or area mental health agency can refer you to. Whatever you do.  Do not isolate yourself from other caring people.  If you just keep breathing, and if you’re patient with yourself, you will get through this and the dark days will pass. Just breathe. ==Roger== — ===Rog’=== Hello I am new here.This is like a last hope.I just found out last friday that my husband was having an affair with a women for the last seven months. Been maried for 32 years.For all those year he was slowly isolating me from my family ,my friends.He was a very controling and angry person. I am affraid to leave.I am also sick.(have a rare desease but was strong enough to work in my own business that I started myself and  pay lots of his dets during the last years. His mistress called me friday night to tell me to let him go to her,that he did not love me anny more etc… I did not know  and was close to going crazy from the pain it cause me to hear that. I still am.After confronting him ,he tell me that he love me that he had broke up with her two weeks ago,… Can I believe him?I dont know.He did so much,Lied so much.Made me and my daughter loose two houses,and find out just weeks before that we where loosing them. I keep telling him that love is not suppose to hurt. Each time he do something like that I fergive him,I know I let him get away with all that,but I dont have a choice. If I were young and healthy I would be out so fast. And I am not staying for the money he never keep a penny even with a penaion and other revenues.I know there are good men,but never been lucky enough to have them aroud me. This morning I am wrigting this and my bottles of pills are next to me. I am hoping as a last resort to find somewere ,a small reason to live.My life been hell from the beginning(incest,rape,abuse)I have enought.THere are only so much that a person can take alone. Please,please give me a reason to live ,I dont whant to die ,but see no choice. Sorry for the long post,and I have to stop cant see with the tears in my eyes. Thank you for reading me . Elise P S Sorry for my spelling mistakes.

Response:

I would start looking at job alternatives, try to save a little money, and take a yoga course to relax.  Remember a lot of this corporate stuff turns out to be irrelevant in the end, you could end up getting a raise or the company could be sold and you’d be gone.  Do a little preparation and a little relaxation.   PS Remember in Office Space, the relaxed guy is so respected for his confidence and cool. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tooly, I enjoyed your post very much.  I think we are a lot alike.  You are a man of passion, like me.  My blood runs hot – as has always been my nature.  How I wish it were otherwise!  How I wish I had the gift of ‘blankness’, of ‘go with the flow’ but alas, I do NOT.   You’d think by now I’d be beyond surprises and accustomed to the madness of the world, but apparently not. And at the moment I am not much in the mood for contemplating, but rather for just getting drunk (which I am now in the process of doing). This has been simply an awful week for me.  Things at work are bad, people have been losing their jobs, which only heightens the stress within me.  All the ‘upper management’ of the company is quarrelling with one another and pointing fingers behind closed doors in meetings as business floats away. (I carefully listen to everything as I sit at my desk).  The air at work is so thick you could cut it with a knife and serve it on a plate.  What’s more, I keep saying to myself "just get through this week, re-coup and re-group during the weekend, and face the next week with a fresh perspective.  This is all in vain of course, and each week gets worse and worse.  My marriage is falling apart – my wife refuses to look for work and doesn’t seem to want kids (or at least won’t admit to as much).  I’ve put up with this shit for almost 9 years…  Couple this with the fear of losing my job and it is simply too much to stand.  So for now, I drink! Everyday I am beaten down just a little bit more.  I feel as if I am under a curse.  When I am knocked down, I try to get up bravely, but in turn for my defiance, I am knocked down again even HARDER!  I sacrifice my heath with my worries as I smoke and drink. I agree with you that it seems that the world seems to be coming to a crescendo – to a sort of climax.  Everyone is so stirred up and self-important these dayz.  They drive like assholes, practically running each other off the road – everyone is in a hurry.  And then I think about 9/11, (yes, happy fucking anniversary) the economy, whatever the topic, it just keeps getting more ridiculous. The Darwinism you allude to, the ‘dog eat dog’ and ‘every man for himself’ reality is alive and well.  If it were a company in which I could buy stock, I’d sell everything I own and even invest in blood! So I have been carefully contemplating a decision — to leave my job, my wife — to sell my house and my car — to simplify — to ‘GO TO ZERO’ , sink to the floor for a while — for what I now yearn for is an escape from this all.  I need time away  —  emotionally and geographically.  Some time to dig deep inside myself and search for the truth.  For what purpose have I been created?  What has God intended for me?  The questions go on, and I need time. I apologize for raving and ranting (gotcha back, didn’t I!) , but I cannot help it right now.  I am low, down….. depressed.  Like you, I want to fight it valiantly, but there is no fuel in the tank.  So I’m getting tanked! Cheers! ~McFly PS – Did you ‘investigate’ Schopenhauer’ ?? You make a lot of sense.  Sheese, I always get my thunder stolen from my own cloud of despair when I come to this NG, .  I understand about personal responsibility too.  Being a burden on others is the last straw that breaks the camel’s back for me. Still, it always feels good to rant Dead end jobs with no where to go…endless futility…whilst we watch through the chain link fence across to those ‘fortunate’, frolicking in the good life, partaking of the rewards you nor I will ever see.  I could stand it too, with stoic calm…if for only a glimmer of  moral repose by any one; for just a glimpse  of virtuous perpitude that these who reap the harvest are just and the right ones, that those who recieve the rewards are the ‘better’ man or woman who should so ‘righly’ by nature, reap those rewards. God judges this?  All I see are predators with larger teeth, sharper claws and who now become the moral equivalents of Ceasar, ready to watch Rome burn with the care of a violin tune. I’m not believing this you know.  Things cannot be this bad; I mean, there must be some natural law that kicks in. Every which way I think, there’s some conclusion that puts up road blocks to escape futility.  I think a lot of hellish experience in this world is based not just on circumstance, but of sense of loss.  Two blind men may not suffer the same plight in the same way, if one was born blind, while the other loses his vision after seeing the world.  I’m not seeing everyday suffering here…but the reality of Hell itself nearby.  There must an answer…there simply must. I always like to at least try and be positive…somehow.  I don’t believe we should fear death.  Like anyone else, I don’t know what’s on the other side either [that there is an 'other' side]…but I’m pretty certain it is not something we should fear.  We should not fear the inevitable. I know this sounds crazy…and in my own way, I have endeared God to my own heart and mind in my life.  But…we simply cannot allow Hell to exist [in ourselves or the world]…even if it is God’s will somehow.  We have to fight back; to make a stand somehow.  I know that sounds ridiculous, but I will not allow this world to extinguish me in that way it now goes, even if it means I must entertain all that I have never believed in, have never endeared as truth.  I will ‘hate’ before I will give up my soul; and I will at least empower myself to that degree that I can feel my ‘rage’. This should not have happened…all of it.  It is REAL.  WE ARE REAL. Life, as we have allowed the experience to become, has been corrupted and stands today as a foul thing.  A lot of innocent people of course…mostly good too…but, we given ourselves up as fodder for the cannons of those ‘foul’ of self, devoided of conscience.  Humanity is…well, dying [though the highly intelligent animal homo sapien carries stridefully on]. We must have some weapon among us; some ‘resource’ that is a bargain chip. There is power in collectivism…but so hard to organize.  For that, a ‘focus’ is needed.  It doesn’t have to be anything all that worthy either, just something to capture our imagination.  Ha…all this sounds crazy I know; organize?  For what cause?  What burning issue? Ha, to dream on I guess.  Perhaps all those ‘weak’ who would like to know what it is to be strong…all those disenfranchised as the ill and misbegotten, the non-pretty, the malformed, the less than bright, the sensitive, or perhaps just those unfortunate to have lost the game for the cheaters and abusers they’ve come across in life…and like some circus freak show to become an army somehow and fight back.  God…I don’t want to hurt the hair of a single flea…and yet, I’d only wish back upon my tormentors what they themselves have in REALITY put upon me. All those served up to Hell’s dominion for no reason…to rise up and rebell against ‘the man’.  Isn’t that the day; the times we are in?  I say bring it on…let’s get it over with; this turmoil that seems so apparent on our doorstep, brought here by those faced away from God’s moral cause in their hearts, who have taken over the systems and have become our new ’sociopath’ overseers. Like a light bulb, the human essence is being turned off worldwide…at the very least in western culture.  Look around; sober up and just look around. A lot of good people everywhere…and yet, allowing such foul things to grow in our midst. I will not serve the Devil…and I rebell against God for having put me here.  Where does that leave things… Sure I go insane…it doesn’t matter anymore.  And insanity is some guy’s definition who knows life as a clipboard and is probably unawares of his own delusions based in Grandeur just because he has sanctions of the society and perhaps the Id Wizard himself.  God…how many idiots have we witnessed being given those damn clipboards now…who line us up, meaure us, and assign us like cattle at feed troughs. End of today’s rant, ha.

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tooly said for all posterity… A reasonable man with authority over me…I can take.  An unreasonable man over me, I can stomach.  But when you put sociopaths over me, I have the right to escape in any way I can.  And I half way ‘blame’ minds like you, who probably are oblivious to what is going on and allow it to happen. As far as the "essence" to anything, I surmise you have no clue.  

You work for sociopaths, I’m partly to blame, and you’re probably the only normal one.  Right. You can certainly insert some flowery prose into your BS.  Do you really believe this stuff? Women are pretty much responsible for all that is going down today socially [as the key dominoe in a great many dominoes that have fallen], as a political force for change that carries over to influence the attitudes of all women.  Do I believe it?  I’m confident enough to say I know it.  

Women are pretty much responsible, eh?   I think we’re on different planets. YOu assume that ‘your planet’ is the one that is representitive of the greater whole; and in this ’sense’ of belonging you "think" you are not alone.  My friend…you are so alone I could never bring your puny conscious existence to fully comprehend it…and thusly, is your saving grace.  

Well, I guess you told me.  I’m just not sure what I was told… Casey "It is easier to get older than it is to get wiser."

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 Anyway, best of luck to ya’…never meant any offense.

Thank-you and luck to you as well, no offense taken. Lori Mc

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Thank you for responding LoriMc…and I’m not as dispassionate or uncaring here as I might seem.  I’m just very angry…and frustrated.  Life, IMO, is about human relations.  There’s little else, as I can see anyway, that balances things that it is justified.  It angers me that we seem to be building a society hell bent to reduce us to animals…highly intelligent animals with great potential for harming one another. What is perhaps so frustrating is that I realize, as you say, the great majority of people are pretty decent…want to contribute, care etc.  But the system no longer differentiates the good from the bad, and therefore cannot identify this ’sociopathic’ mindset that, I for one, have experienced rising all around me. I surely didn’t mean to come here and start a gender debate.  I will rest my thoughts simply to say what I was talking about was ‘feelings’ of failure, how men and women have different psychological makeup where ‘failure’ means different things.  Economically, the sexes are under the same gun of course…someone has to pay the bills . My second biggest frustration you know…I’ve always wanted to contribute, but have always felt ‘locked out’…until now, it looks like I’m to become the ‘burden’ [while the sociopath gets the gravy...ha; personal joke I'm afraid].  Sheese.  See…call it male pride or whatever, but I cannot think of a worse fate than to become a ‘burden’ on anyone, much less those I care about.  I’d rather, well…this is the suicide NG after all, ha. What a delimma.  Or is it dilemma…ha.  Anyway, best of luck to ya’…never meant any offense.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gad, ignore the spelling in my above reply.  Forgot to run the spell check, and didn’t proof-read before sending. oops!

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Gad, ignore the spelling in my above reply.  Forgot to run the spell check, and didn’t proof-read before sending. oops!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gotcha back?…No not at all…I relate 100%.  First that workplace.  I garner from your words that terrible terrible weight of dread…where the chest gets so so heavy from wariness and then weariness of all the political turmoil in a chaotic workplace comprised of unreasonable people, especially those who might have positional power over you.  It is almost a burning sensation you know…like a knife that cuts somewhere beneath, near the heart; in the heart even.  Weight.  And you can’t [I can't anyway] get away from it.  Dread.  God I hate the feeling.  Like being under constant jeopardy; no way to relax, to breath easy some… That heaviness is what we are all experiencing here I think [though circumstance might be quite varied].  This terrible weight…or we get to that stage having felt that weight so so so so so so so long and neverending that begin to feel nothing at all.  This weight, it crushes you from inside out. Oh, then the wife you talk about.  Women live in a different world you know, never to know the naked vileness of survivals struggle head on.  Men compete on the most basic subliminal levels as well as the less complex normal workplace competitions. A woman enters the workplace (where I am anyway), and they are coddled for the most part, much as they all have been since these ‘empowerment’ movements have been going on. It used to be…or perhaps it was just my illusions…that a man and woman came together in life to become a single unit, one supporting the other in all ways.  A good woman can look into a man’s heart and understand his torment, whatever it may be…and then make the world a softer place for her embrace and understanding.  I don’t see that much anymore.  What I see are only demands made by woman…and if you fail, no matter for what reasons, if the rules were against you, if someone tripped you from behind, whatever…no matter…now you fail her. Life has become so lopsided in so many ways.  But women don’t win in all this either.  Families are falling by the wayside like flies behind a fog truck. I think a lot of us would like simply to cast off this yoke that the world puts upon us today…but like yourself, we ‘fear’.  What does one do for income?  How do we support the lifestyles that we’ve grown accustomed? We’ve all looked upon the homeless and know how barren that is…to become ‘non-entities’ to society, like trash along the roadside.  So, we put the next foot in front of the next and carry forward…realizing a growing futility that seeps the spirit from us as the days pass, over and over and over…and it only grows.  And always, that ‘dread’ and the weight that always there, everpresent somewhere beneath one’s conscious [and mostly not so beneath either]. Me? I don’t want to die, not really; and I’m fairly certain no one else here does either.  But there are things in life that are worse than death I think and for some of us, we are brought to bear that experience whereupon hope is all but lost.  Demoralization comes by way of all the disappointments mounting up, all the disallusion, all the injustice.  If it were just pestulence or tornados…maybe even war, I think I myself could bear it. But whatever is going down these days, this injustice that is all about, where a good man no longer counts or has been redefined to carry fangs, well, it is the demoralization that brings one down I think.  It is not just what is happening to me that robs me of my spirit…but what I see happening to a lot of us; all of us perhaps.  It’s all turned upside down now; the worst among us now reap the benefits [so it seems to me]. It funny how so righteous I feel in all this though, ha.  I think that is the virtue of the innocent..that even a condemned man can go to the gallows with his head high with a cockiness and a certain sense of ‘higher domain’, simply for the fact they HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG. Done nothing wrong? Then you must be punished. I know men who are full of shit. They steal, drink, lie and go with other women. They wife’s adore them and they have plenty of friends. While women complain about jerks, fore jerks they fall. They say they want a honest and decent man but honest and decent men the despise.

This was generalization but you get the general idea. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  In fact, certain ‘wrongness’ lay with those who have defiled you and who have set about your destruction for sake of decrepidness in their own spiritual makeup. But I do relate to your post; boy, how I relate.  I wish there were some sort of grass roots movement somewhere, where all of those who would like to cast off their yoke of suppression, find some community whereby, we could see our emotional states are not ‘unique’, but due to things much greater than any of us and how the world is turning.  I believe it is a God given right that we feel…but not this god-awful weight that is thrown upon us, but to feel the wind in our hearts like the freshness of the sunlight itself as this horrible burden is lifted. Life is precious.  But it’s not so precious that we should be made to accept ‘foul’ things in our existence, whereby the spirit is turned into sociopathic monstrocity; or, if victim to all that is taking place, into those destroyed feeling of horrible weight that our injustice puts upon us. I wish there was some movement somewhere. Ha, guess I gotcha back on the gotcha back.

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tooly said for all posterity… Gotcha back?…No not at all…I relate 100%.  First that workplace.  I garner from your words that terrible terrible weight of dread…where the chest gets so so heavy from wariness and then weariness of all the political turmoil in a chaotic workplace comprised of unreasonable people, especially those who might have positional power over you.  It is almost a burning sensation you know…like a knife that cuts somewhere beneath, near the heart; in the heart even.  Weight.  And you can’t [I can't anyway] get away from it.  Dread.  God I hate the feeling.  Like being under constant jeopardy; no way to relax, to breath easy some…

Let’s boil this down to the essence.  You hate the feeling of having to work with someone in authority around? Oh, then the wife you talk about.  Women live in a different world you know, never to know the naked vileness of survivals struggle head on.  Men compete on the most basic subliminal levels as well as the less complex normal workplace competitions. A woman enters the workplace (where I am anyway), and they are coddled for the most part, much as they all have been since these ‘empowerment’ movements have been going on.

You can certainly insert some flowery prose into your BS.  Do you really believe this stuff? But I do relate to your post; boy, how I relate.  I wish there were some sort of grass roots movement somewhere, where all of those who would like to cast off their yoke of suppression, find some community whereby, we could see our emotional states are not ‘unique’, but due to things much greater than any of us and how the world is turning.  I believe it is a God given right that we feel…but not this god-awful weight that is thrown upon us, but to feel the wind in our hearts like the freshness of the sunlight itself as this horrible burden is lifted.

Huh? I think we’re on different planets. Casey "It is easier to get older than it is to get wiser."

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Now, you I do not percieve as a flamer…and respect your views. Though, obviously we disagree.

Thank-you, it’s ok to be in disageement means we both have a working brain. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gotcha back?…No not at all…I relate 100%.  First that workplace. long…. and neverending that begin to feel nothing at all.  This weight, it crushes you from inside out. Oh, then the wife you talk about.  Women live in a different world you know, never to know the naked vileness of survivals struggle head on. I like to find this fairy tale world you think women live in. Men treat women different.

Ok yes I agree.  That is a fact of life males and females treat each other differently, doesn’t have to be a bad thing.  There is always the deeper subliminal aspect that nature has going between the sexes whereupon, even in professional arenas, we are still going through the ‘mating dance’. Men compete against other men on the other hand in that same arena…always trying to gain greater ‘medicine’ [as the Indians called it] by which their mating rights are increased in that mating arena [as self confidence, self aggrandizement...lots of psychological things].  They compete ‘against’ one another [even as they might even be mentoring for the guy somehow]. All this is taking place beneath our ‘civil’ social mindedness and conscious behaviors we display outwards in our ‘roleplaying’.  I’ve seen it is all. Women will never know of the harsh competitions that can exist.  Some man, or men, will always try to protect them I suppose [subconsciously working to reap the possibility of sexual empowerment in some way...not always just copulation you see].  I speak in generalities of course; the macro view.

May be so, I am obviously not a man so I don’t really know how the male mind works subliminally and all that …… This is most apparent and highly visible if a woman is either beautiful in some way or knows how to use her sexuality.  Even unattractive women reap benefit from this nature though, but probably resent the ideas for sake of the lack of attentiveness they recieve in comparison.  If you or someone else is a good person, I hate this nature as much anyone else.  Beauty carries social power is all…

Agreed, but this also work for a male who has the right looks.  Sometimes the looks don’t hurt, but it has been my observation the ones who float to the top because of looks sink pretty fast if they don’t have the skills to back it up. So yes, bueaty might get you somewhere but in the long run it won’t help keep you there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Men compete on the most basic subliminal levels as well as the less complex normal workplace competitions. A woman enters the workplace (where I am anyway), and they are coddled for the most part, much as they all have been since these ‘empowerment’ movements have been going on. Oh please, or maybe I just had the wrong type job for 20 years? Men and women were both treated equally like crap where I worked! Nature is nature.  I doubt what you say here is true, though I’m sure you see the way you see it.  Look at it like this.  Disregarding economic necessities, you could have quit any time you wanted…and still existed ’successfully’ as a houswife without too much damage done to your ego. Failure for the woman is not fundamentally found in the workplace [though I'm sure women feel elation or disappointments as the situation calls for]. But a man to fail in that same workplace, and he could end up on skid row, totally destroyed as a human being altogether.  You see, not the same expectations exist…not the same pressures…not the same overall treatment.

Here is where we disagree.  I could not have quit and become a so called housewife, who in the hell would feed my family and keep a roof over our heads?  In order to be a housewife ya need a house to take care of and live in. I was paying for the house.  I was the major bread winner, and have been through most of my life. I worked a job that was considered a job for a man, sure maybe I could have set back and let others do my work to some extent but it doesn’t work that way for me, we are a team and I was always very proud of the fact I could pull my own weight and then some. I walked a tight rope for years keeping my head above water and one step in front of the bills, as alot of women do these days.  A little disappointed isn’t even close to what I would have felt if I would have lost that job when my kids were smaller and with a disabled husband at the time, it would have been sheer panic!  I had nighmares of falling off the tight rope and ending up in this skid row. Oh yeah women do know pressure and stress. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It used to be…or perhaps it was just my illusions…that a man and woman came together in life to become a single unit, one supporting the other in all ways. That is the ideal I always looked for, seems to have alluded me. What I’m trying to say in all this is that we are all Victims here I think. We are creating a world that gives rise to sociopathism…lack of morality, lower of human value…all of that.  Regardless of the differences between men and women, it remains, I believe anyway, that we want the same thing in our relatinship with one another…but not found as a man or a woman, but as human.  Hell, just someone to share all this crap with…ha…but I mean, really share, not just spend jail time with. I’m sorry it alluded you…as it has for many of us…and more and more of us as time goes.  But that I say ‘women’ as  a poltical force have carried it all off course, it is not a personal statement about any single individual. But I do know how miserable life can be for those men here whose wives have been affected in some way.

It can be miserable for anyone, life is funny that way. Don’t be sorry it has alluded me so far, it’s been a good adventure searching all and all. I don’t play politics, never had time for it, was too busy trying to survive.  As for being a victim, I don’t consider my self one, life has thrown me several curves and I dealt with them, sometimes it wasn’t fun but I can look back and be fairly happy with how I handled things.  Besides, I still have alot of time ahead of me, I’ll have that life that has been alluding me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A good woman can look into a man’s heart and understand his torment, whatever it may be…and then make the world a softer place for her embrace and understanding.  I don’t see that much anymore.  What I see are only demands made by woman…and if you fail, no matter for what reasons, if the rules were against you, if someone tripped you from behind, whatever…no matter…now you fail her. Sad you have had experiences that color your thoughts in this way. Actually, I am very lucky in many respects personally.  My demoralization is almost political in nature.  It is all going ’south’ and I want to fight back somehow…but I’m powerless.  But I also know that the source of what is making us ’sociopaths’ is something far deeper and overwhelming.  I suddenly wake up in a world where I’m surrounded by unfriendly, immoral, hateful, often vile, people.  There are those who would not just kick a man when he is down now, but make fun to boot in a total loss of human existence.

Look deeper the crazier show up on the surface and yes they are everywhere, but there are good kind people, they just don’t make as much noise so aren’t as easily noticable.  :) Lori Mc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But with the world is a rising intellect that I cannot make a dent upon, with.  We get lost in the paperwork now…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gotcha back?…No not at all…I relate 100%.  First that workplace.  I garner from your words that terrible terrible weight of dread…where the chest gets so so heavy from wariness and then weariness of all the political turmoil in a chaotic workplace comprised of unreasonable people, especially those who might have positional power over you.  It is almost a burning sensation you know…like a knife that cuts somewhere beneath, near the heart; in the heart even.  Weight.  And you can’t [I can't anyway] get away from it.  Dread.  God I hate the feeling.  Like being under constant jeopardy; no way to relax, to breath easy some… That heaviness is what we are all experiencing here I think [though circumstance might be quite varied].  This terrible weight…or we get to that stage having felt that weight so so so so so so so long and neverending that begin to feel nothing at all.  This weight, it crushes you from inside out. Oh, then the wife you talk about.  Women live in a different world you know, never to know the naked vileness of survivals struggle head on.  Men compete on the most basic subliminal levels as well as the less complex normal workplace competitions. A woman enters the workplace (where I am anyway), and they are coddled for the most part, much as they all have been since these ‘empowerment’ movements have been going on. It used to be…or perhaps it was just my illusions…that a man and woman came together in life to become a single unit, one supporting the other in all ways.  A good woman can look into a man’s heart and understand his torment, whatever it may be…and then make the world a softer place for her embrace and understanding.  I don’t see that much anymore.  What I see are only demands made by woman…and if you fail, no matter for what reasons, if the rules were against you, if someone tripped you from behind, whatever…no matter…now you fail her. Life has become so lopsided in so many ways.  But women don’t win in all this either.  Families are falling by the wayside like flies behind a fog truck. I think a lot of us would like simply to cast off this yoke that the world puts upon us today…but like yourself, we ‘fear’.  What does one do for income?  How do we support the lifestyles that we’ve grown accustomed? We’ve all looked upon the homeless and know how barren that is…to become ‘non-entities’ to society, like trash along the roadside.  So, we put the next foot in front of the next and carry forward…realizing a growing futility that seeps the spirit from us as the days pass, over and over and over…and it only grows.  And always, that ‘dread’ and the weight that always there, everpresent somewhere beneath one’s conscious [and mostly not so beneath either]. Me? I don’t want to die, not really; and I’m fairly certain no one else here does either.  But there are things in life that are worse than death I think and for some of us, we are brought to bear that experience whereupon hope is all but lost.  Demoralization comes by way of all the disappointments mounting up, all the disallusion, all the injustice.  If it were just pestulence or tornados…maybe even war, I think I myself could bear it. But whatever is going down these days, this injustice that is all about, where a good man no longer counts or has been redefined to carry fangs, well, it is the demoralization that brings one down I think.  It is not just what is happening to me that robs me of my spirit…but what I see happening to a lot of us; all of us perhaps.  It’s all turned upside down now; the worst among us now reap the benefits [so it seems to me]. It funny how so righteous I feel in all this though, ha.  I think that is the virtue of the innocent..that even a condemned man can go to the gallows with his head high with a cockiness and a certain sense of ‘higher domain’, simply for the fact they HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.

Done nothing wrong? Then you must be punished. I know men who are full of shit. They steal, drink, lie and go with other women. They wife’s adore them and they have plenty of friends. While women complain about jerks, fore jerks they fall. They say they want a honest and decent man but honest and decent men the despise. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  In fact, certain ‘wrongness’ lay with those who have defiled you and who have set about your destruction for sake of decrepidness in their own spiritual makeup. But I do relate to your post; boy, how I relate.  I wish there were some sort of grass roots movement somewhere, where all of those who would like to cast off their yoke of suppression, find some community whereby, we could see our emotional states are not ‘unique’, but due to things much greater than any of us and how the world is turning.  I believe it is a God given right that we feel…but not this god-awful weight that is thrown upon us, but to feel the wind in our hearts like the freshness of the sunlight itself as this horrible burden is lifted. Life is precious.  But it’s not so precious that we should be made to accept ‘foul’ things in our existence, whereby the spirit is turned into sociopathic monstrocity; or, if victim to all that is taking place, into those destroyed feeling of horrible weight that our injustice puts upon us. I wish there was some movement somewhere. Ha, guess I gotcha back on the gotcha back.

Response:

Now, you I do not percieve as a flamer…and respect your views. Though, obviously we disagree.

Gotcha back?…No not at all…I relate 100%.  First that workplace. long…. and neverending that begin to feel nothing at all.  This weight, it crushes you from inside out. Oh, then the wife you talk about.  Women live in a different world you know, never to know the naked vileness of survivals struggle head on. I like to find this fairy tale world you think women live in.

Men treat women different.  There is always the deeper subliminal aspect that nature has going between the sexes whereupon, even in professional arenas, we are still going through the ‘mating dance’.  Men compete against other men on the other hand in that same arena…always trying to gain greater ‘medicine’ [as the Indians called it] by which their mating rights are increased in that mating arena [as self confidence, self aggrandizement...lots of psychological things].  They compete ‘against’ one another [even as they might even be mentoring for the guy somehow]. All this is taking place beneath our ‘civil’ social mindedness and conscious behaviors we display outwards in our ‘roleplaying’.  I’ve seen it is all. Women will never know of the harsh competitions that can exist.  Some man, or men, will always try to protect them I suppose [subconsciously working to reap the possibility of sexual empowerment in some way...not always just copulation you see].  I speak in generalities of course; the macro view. This is most apparent and highly visible if a woman is either beautiful in some way or knows how to use her sexuality.  Even unattractive women reap benefit from this nature though, but probably resent the ideas for sake of the lack of attentiveness they recieve in comparison.  If you or someone else is a good person, I hate this nature as much anyone else.  Beauty carries social power is all…  Men compete on the most basic subliminal levels as well as the less complex normal workplace competitions. A woman enters the workplace (where I am anyway), and they are coddled for the most part, much as they all have been since these ‘empowerment’ movements have been going on. Oh please, or maybe I just had the wrong type job for 20 years? Men and women were both treated equally like crap where I worked!

Nature is nature.  I doubt what you say here is true, though I’m sure you see the way you see it.  Look at it like this.  Disregarding economic necessities, you could have quit any time you wanted…and still existed ’successfully’ as a houswife without too much damage done to your ego. Failure for the woman is not fundamentally found in the workplace [though I'm sure women feel elation or disappointments as the situation calls for]. But a man to fail in that same workplace, and he could end up on skid row, totally destroyed as a human being altogether.  You see, not the same expectations exist…not the same pressures…not the same overall treatment. It used to be…or perhaps it was just my illusions…that a man and woman came together in life to become a single unit, one supporting the other in all ways. That is the ideal I always looked for, seems to have alluded me.

What I’m trying to say in all this is that we are all Victims here I think. We are creating a world that gives rise to sociopathism…lack of morality, lower of human value…all of that.  Regardless of the differences between men and women, it remains, I believe anyway, that we want the same thing in our relatinship with one another…but not found as a man or a woman, but as human.  Hell, just someone to share all this crap with…ha…but I mean, really share, not just spend jail time with. I’m sorry it alluded you…as it has for many of us…and more and more of us as time goes.  But that I say ‘women’ as a poltical force have carried it  all off course, it is not a personal statement about any single individual. But I do know how miserable life can be for those men here whose wives have been affected in some way. A good woman can look into a man’s heart and understand his torment, whatever it may be…and then make the world a softer place for her embrace and understanding.  I don’t see that much anymore.  What I see are only demands made by woman…and if you fail, no matter for what reasons, if the rules were against you, if someone tripped you from behind, whatever…no matter…now you fail her. Sad you have had experiences that color your thoughts in this way. Lori Mc

Actually, I am very lucky in many respects personally.  My demoralization is almost political in nature.  It is all going ’south’ and I want to fight back somehow…but I’m powerless.  But I also know that the source of what is making us ’sociopaths’ is something far deeper and overwhelming.  I suddenly wake up in a world where I’m surrounded by unfriendly, immoral, hateful, often vile, people.  There are those who would not just kick a man when he is down now, but make fun to boot in a total loss of human existence. But with the world is a rising intellect that I cannot make a dent upon, with.  We get lost in the paperwork now…

Response:

I usually don’t encourage flamers…but yours just hit me wrong somehow… Let’s boil this down to the essence.  You hate the feeling of having to work with someone in authority around?

What’s your point?  I absolutely detest anyone having domain over me; do you like it?  But I can play by rules as much as anyone.  We are producing a society where sociopathism explodes as a common trait.  A reasonable man with authority over me…I can take.  An unreasonable man over me, I can stomach.  But when you put sociopaths over me, I have the right to escape in any way I can.  And I half way ‘blame’ minds like you, who probably are oblivious to what is going on and allow it to happen. As far as the "essence" to anything, I surmise you have no clue.  You’d be perfect managerial material in today’s world…or better yet, run for political office. You can certainly insert some flowery prose into your BS.  Do you really believe this stuff?

Women are pretty much responsible for all that is going down today socially [as the key dominoe in a great many dominoes that have fallen], as a political force for change that carries over to influence the attitudes of all women.  Do I believe it?  I’m confident enough to say I know it.  We are in a spiritual crisis in this world. But again, I suppose with what appears to be a pretty dull mind you display here, you will translate that to mean something religious. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But I do relate to your post; boy, how I relate.  I wish there were some sort of grass roots movement somewhere, where all of those who would like to cast off their yoke of suppression, find some community whereby, we could see our emotional states are not ‘unique’, but due to things much greater than any of us and how the world is turning.  I believe it is a God given right that we feel…but not this god-awful weight that is thrown upon us, but to feel the wind in our hearts like the freshness of the sunlight itself as this horrible burden is lifted. Huh?

Huh?  What is it you don’t understand? I think we’re on different planets.

YOu assume that ‘your planet’ is the one that is representitive of the greater whole; and in this ’sense’ of belonging you "think" you are not alone.  My friend…you are so alone I could never bring your puny conscious existence to fully comprehend it…and thusly, is your saving grace.  But I wish no ill toward anyone, but only respond to what was ‘ill’ will thrown toward me.

Response:

Gotcha back?…No not at all…I relate 100%.  First that workplace.  I garner from your words that terrible terrible weight of dread…where the chest gets so so heavy from wariness and then weariness of all the political turmoil in a chaotic workplace comprised of unreasonable people, especially those who might have positional power over you.  It is almost a burning sensation you know…like a knife that cuts somewhere beneath, near the heart; in the heart even.  Weight.  And you can’t [I can't anyway] get away from it.  Dread.  God I hate the feeling.  Like being under constant jeopardy; no way to relax, to breath easy some… That heaviness is what we are all experiencing here I think [though circumstance might be quite varied].  This terrible weight…or we get to that stage having felt that weight so so so so so so so long and neverending that begin to feel nothing at all.  This weight, it crushes you from inside out. Oh, then the wife you talk about.  Women live in a different world you know, never to know the naked vileness of survivals struggle head on.  Men compete on the most basic subliminal levels as well as the less complex normal workplace competitions. A woman enters the workplace (where I am anyway), and they are coddled for the most part, much as they all have been since these ‘empowerment’ movements have been going on. It used to be…or perhaps it was just my illusions…that a man and woman came together in life to become a single unit, one supporting the other in all ways.  A good woman can look into a man’s heart and understand his torment, whatever it may be…and then make the world a softer place for her embrace and understanding.  I don’t see that much anymore.  What I see are only demands made by woman…and if you fail, no matter for what reasons, if the rules were against you, if someone tripped you from behind, whatever…no matter…now you fail her. Life has become so lopsided in so many ways.  But women don’t win in all this either.  Families are falling by the wayside like flies behind a fog truck. I think a lot of us would like simply to cast off this yoke that the world puts upon us today…but like yourself, we ‘fear’.  What does one do for income?  How do we support the lifestyles that we’ve grown accustomed? We’ve all looked upon the homeless and know how barren that is…to become ‘non-entities’ to society, like trash along the roadside.  So, we put the next foot in front of the next and carry forward…realizing a growing futility that seeps the spirit from us as the days pass, over and over and over…and it only grows.  And always, that ‘dread’ and the weight that always there, everpresent somewhere beneath one’s conscious [and mostly not so beneath either]. Me? I don’t want to die, not really; and I’m fairly certain no one else here does either.  But there are things in life that are worse than death I think and for some of us, we are brought to bear that experience whereupon hope is all but lost.  Demoralization comes by way of all the disappointments mounting up, all the disallusion, all the injustice.  If it were just pestulence or tornados…maybe even war, I think I myself could bear it. But whatever is going down these days, this injustice that is all about, where a good man no longer counts or has been redefined to carry fangs, well, it is the demoralization that brings one down I think.  It is not just what is happening to me that robs me of my spirit…but what I see happening to a lot of us; all of us perhaps.  It’s all turned upside down now; the worst among us now reap the benefits [so it seems to me]. It funny how so righteous I feel in all this though, ha.  I think that is the virtue of the innocent..that even a condemned man can go to the gallows with his head high with a cockiness and a certain sense of ‘higher domain’, simply for the fact they HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.  In fact, certain ‘wrongness’ lay with those who have defiled you and who have set about your destruction for sake of decrepidness in their own spiritual makeup. But I do relate to your post; boy, how I relate.  I wish there were some sort of grass roots movement somewhere, where all of those who would like to cast off their yoke of suppression, find some community whereby, we could see our emotional states are not ‘unique’, but due to things much greater than any of us and how the world is turning.  I believe it is a God given right that we feel…but not this god-awful weight that is thrown upon us, but to feel the wind in our hearts like the freshness of the sunlight itself as this horrible burden is lifted. Life is precious.  But it’s not so precious that we should be made to accept ‘foul’ things in our existence, whereby the spirit is turned into sociopathic monstrocity; or, if victim to all that is taking place, into those destroyed feeling of horrible weight that our injustice puts upon us. I wish there was some movement somewhere. Ha, guess I gotcha back on the gotcha back.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gotcha back?…No not at all…I relate 100%.  First that workplace. I garner from your words that terrible terrible weight of dread…where the chest gets so so heavy from wariness and then weariness of all the political turmoil in a chaotic workplace comprised of unreasonable people, especially those who might have positional power over you.  It is almost a burning sensation you know…like a knife that cuts somewhere beneath, near the heart; in the heart even.  Weight.  And you can’t [I can't anyway] get away from it.  Dread.  God I hate the feeling.  Like being under constant jeopardy; no way to relax, to breath easy some… That heaviness is what we are all experiencing here I think [though circumstance might be quite varied].  This terrible weight…or we get to that stage having felt that weight so so so so so so so long and neverending that begin to feel nothing at all.  This weight, it crushes you from inside out. Oh, then the wife you talk about.  Women live in a different world you know, never to know the naked vileness of survivals struggle head on.

I like to find this fairy tale world you think women live in.  Men compete on the most basic subliminal levels as well as the less complex normal workplace competitions. A woman enters the workplace (where I am anyway), and they are coddled for the most part, much as they all have been since these ‘empowerment’ movements have been going on.

Oh please, or maybe I just had the wrong type job for 20 years? Men and women were both treated equally like crap where I worked! It used to be…or perhaps it was just my illusions…that a man and woman came together in life to become a single unit, one supporting the other in all ways.

That is the ideal I always looked for, seems to have alluded me. A good woman can look into a man’s heart and understand his torment, whatever it may be…and then make the world a softer place for her embrace and understanding.  I don’t see that much anymore.  What I see are only demands made by woman…and if you fail, no matter for what reasons, if the rules were against you, if someone tripped you from behind, whatever…no matter…now you fail her.

Sad you have had experiences that color your thoughts in this way. Lori Mc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Life has become so lopsided in so many ways.  But women don’t win in all this either.  Families are falling by the wayside like flies behind a fog truck. I think a lot of us would like simply to cast off this yoke that the world puts upon us today…but like yourself, we ‘fear’.  What does one do for income?  How do we support the lifestyles that we’ve grown accustomed? We’ve all looked upon the homeless and know how barren that is…to become ‘non-entities’ to society, like trash along the roadside.  So, we put the next foot in front of the next and carry forward…realizing a growing futility that seeps the spirit from us as the days pass, over and over and over…and it only grows.  And always, that ‘dread’ and the weight that always there, everpresent somewhere beneath one’s conscious [and mostly not so beneath either]. Me? I don’t want to die, not really; and I’m fairly certain no one else here does either.  But there are things in life that are worse than death I think and for some of us, we are brought to bear that experience whereupon hope is all but lost.  Demoralization comes by way of all the disappointments mounting up, all the disallusion, all the injustice.  If it were just pestulence or tornados…maybe even war, I think I myself could bear it. But whatever is going down these days, this injustice that is all about, where a good man no longer counts or has been redefined to carry fangs, well, it is the demoralization that brings one down I think.  It is not just what is happening to me that robs me of my spirit…but what I see happening to a lot of us; all of us perhaps.  It’s all turned upside down now; the worst among us now reap the benefits [so it seems to me]. It funny how so righteous I feel in all this though, ha.  I think that is the virtue of the innocent..that even a condemned man can go to the gallows with his head high with a cockiness and a certain sense of ‘higher domain’, simply for the fact they HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.  In fact, certain ‘wrongness’ lay with those who have defiled you and who have set about your destruction for sake of decrepidness in their own spiritual makeup. But I do relate to your post; boy, how I relate.  I wish there were some sort of grass roots movement somewhere, where all of those who would like to cast off their yoke of suppression, find some community whereby, we could see our emotional states are not ‘unique’, but due to things much greater than any of us and how the world is turning. I believe it is a God given right that we feel…but not this god-awful weight that is thrown upon us, but to feel the wind in our hearts like the freshness of the sunlight itself as this horrible burden is lifted. Life is precious.  But it’s not so precious that we should be made to accept ‘foul’ things in our existence, whereby the spirit is turned into sociopathic monstrocity; or, if victim to all that is taking place, into those destroyed feeling of horrible weight that our injustice puts upon us. I wish there was some movement somewhere. Ha, guess I gotcha back on the gotcha back.

Response:

Tooly, I enjoyed your post very much.  I think we are a lot alike.  You are a man of passion, like me.  My blood runs hot – as has always been my nature.  How I wish it were otherwise!  How I wish I had the gift of ‘blankness’, of ‘go with the flow’ but alas, I do NOT.   You’d think by now I’d be beyond surprises and accustomed to the madness of the world, but apparently not. And at the moment I am not much in the mood for contemplating, but rather for just getting drunk (which I am now in the process of doing). This has been simply an awful week for me.  Things at work are bad, people have been losing their jobs, which only heightens the stress within me.  All the ‘upper management’ of the company is quarrelling with one another and pointing fingers behind closed doors in meetings as business floats away. (I carefully listen to everything as I sit at my desk).  The air at work is so thick you could cut it with a knife and serve it on a plate.  What’s more, I keep saying to myself "just get through this week, re-coup and re-group during the weekend, and face the next week with a fresh perspective.  This is all in vain of course, and each week gets worse and worse.  My marriage is falling apart – my wife refuses to look for work and doesn’t seem to want kids (or at least won’t admit to as much).  I’ve put up with this shit for almost 9 years…  Couple this with the fear of losing my job and it is simply too much to stand.  So for now, I drink! Everyday I am beaten down just a little bit more.  I feel as if I am under a curse.  When I am knocked down, I try to get up bravely, but in turn for my defiance, I am knocked down again even HARDER!  I sacrifice my heath with my worries as I smoke and drink. I agree with you that it seems that the world seems to be coming to a crescendo – to a sort of climax.  Everyone is so stirred up and self-important these dayz.  They drive like assholes, practically running each other off the road – everyone is in a hurry.  And then I think about 9/11, (yes, happy fucking anniversary) the economy, whatever the topic, it just keeps getting more ridiculous. The Darwinism you allude to, the ‘dog eat dog’ and ‘every man for himself’ reality is alive and well.  If it were a company in which I could buy stock, I’d sell everything I own and even invest in blood! So I have been carefully contemplating a decision — to leave my job, my wife — to sell my house and my car — to simplify — to ‘GO TO ZERO’ , sink to the floor for a while — for what I now yearn for is an escape from this all.  I need time away  —  emotionally and geographically.  Some time to dig deep inside myself and search for the truth.  For what purpose have I been created?  What has God intended for me?  The questions go on, and I need time. I apologize for raving and ranting (gotcha back, didn’t I!) , but I cannot help it right now.  I am low, down….. depressed.  Like you, I want to fight it valiantly, but there is no fuel in the tank.  So I’m getting tanked! Cheers! ~McFly PS – Did you ‘investigate’ Schopenhauer’ ??

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You make a lot of sense.  Sheese, I always get my thunder stolen from my own cloud of despair when I come to this NG, .  I understand about personal responsibility too.  Being a burden on others is the last straw that breaks the camel’s back for me. Still, it always feels good to rant Dead end jobs with no where to go…endless futility…whilst we watch through the chain link fence across to those ‘fortunate’, frolicking in the good life, partaking of the rewards you nor I will ever see.  I could stand it too, with stoic calm…if for only a glimmer of  moral repose by any one; for just a glimpse  of virtuous perpitude that these who reap the harvest are just and the right ones, that those who recieve the rewards are the ‘better’ man or woman who should so ‘righly’ by nature, reap those rewards. God judges this?  All I see are predators with larger teeth, sharper claws and who now become the moral equivalents of Ceasar, ready to watch Rome burn with the care of a violin tune. I’m not believing this you know.  Things cannot be this bad; I mean, there must be some natural law that kicks in. Every which way I think, there’s some conclusion that puts up road blocks to escape futility.  I think a lot of hellish experience in this world is based not just on circumstance, but of sense of loss.  Two blind men may not suffer the same plight in the same way, if one was born blind, while the other loses his vision after seeing the world.  I’m not seeing everyday suffering here…but the reality of Hell itself nearby.  There must an answer…there simply must. I always like to at least try and be positive…somehow.  I don’t believe we should fear death.  Like anyone else, I don’t know what’s on the other side either [that there is an 'other' side]…but I’m pretty certain it is not something we should fear.  We should not fear the inevitable. I know this sounds crazy…and in my own way, I have endeared God to my own heart and mind in my life.  But…we simply cannot allow Hell to exist [in ourselves or the world]…even if it is God’s will somehow.  We have to fight back; to make a stand somehow.  I know that sounds ridiculous, but I will not allow this world to extinguish me in that way it now goes, even if it means I must entertain all that I have never believed in, have never endeared as truth.  I will ‘hate’ before I will give up my soul; and I will at least empower myself to that degree that I can feel my ‘rage’. This should not have happened…all of it.  It is REAL.  WE ARE REAL. Life, as we have allowed the experience to become, has been corrupted and stands today as a foul thing.  A lot of innocent people of course…mostly good too…but, we given ourselves up as fodder for the cannons of those ‘foul’ of self, devoided of conscience.  Humanity is…well, dying [though the highly intelligent animal homo sapien carries stridefully on]. We must have some weapon among us; some ‘resource’ that is a bargain chip. There is power in collectivism…but so hard to organize.  For that, a ‘focus’ is needed.  It doesn’t have to be anything all that worthy either, just something to capture our imagination.  Ha…all this sounds crazy I know; organize?  For what cause?  What burning issue? Ha, to dream on I guess.  Perhaps all those ‘weak’ who would like to know what it is to be strong…all those disenfranchised as the ill and misbegotten, the non-pretty, the malformed, the less than bright, the sensitive, or perhaps just those unfortunate to have lost the game for the cheaters and abusers they’ve come across in life…and like some circus freak show to become an army somehow and fight back.  God…I don’t want to hurt the hair of a single flea…and yet, I’d only wish back upon my tormentors what they themselves have in REALITY put upon me. All those served up to Hell’s dominion for no reason…to rise up and rebell against ‘the man’.  Isn’t that the day; the times we are in?  I say bring it on…let’s get it over with; this turmoil that seems so apparent on our doorstep, brought here by those faced away from God’s moral cause in their hearts, who have taken over the systems and have become our new ’sociopath’ overseers. Like a light bulb, the human essence is being turned off worldwide…at the very least in western culture.  Look around; sober up and just look around. A lot of good people everywhere…and yet, allowing such foul things to grow in our midst. I will not serve the Devil…and I rebell against God for having put me here.  Where does that leave things… Sure I go insane…it doesn’t matter anymore.  And insanity is some guy’s definition who knows life as a clipboard and is probably unawares of his own delusions based in Grandeur just because he has sanctions of the society and perhaps the Id Wizard himself.  God…how many idiots have we witnessed being given those damn clipboards now…who line us up, meaure us, and assign us like cattle at feed troughs. End of today’s rant, ha.

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He says he will commit suicide if I don’t divorce him.  Am I suppose to take this seriously or assume it’s just another one of his temper tantrums.

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He says he will commit suicide if I don’t divorce him.  Am I suppose to take this seriously or assume it’s just another one of his temper tantrums.

This is a most peculiar threat.  

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My ex thought about suicide all the time, almost tried it once w/ my gun, this was over something else besides me or what happened between us, some good advice I got from a close friend w/ your type of problem, too, is that we make choices in life and if he is pulling that kind of "or else" treatment this is not love, this is something very messed up and he needs to see a counselor for it, but you have your life to lead and should not be forced into situations over threats.  I had a girlfriend actually attempt it after I left her she showed me her scars later, and she told me she would, but people dont love you who force you into those situations, that is a twisted, selfish act and has only to do with their desires and not yours.  I would STRONGLY suggest that YOU go see a therapist b/c it could damage you if you dont get things straight, im no therapist, only giving you my own experience, good luck and God Bless. — -Qui peccat ebrius luat sobrius

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -He says he will commit suicide if I don’t divorce him.  Am I suppose to take this seriously or assume it’s just another one of his temper tantrums.

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Take it seriously. — Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He says he will commit suicide if I don’t divorce him.  Am I suppose to take this seriously or assume it’s just another one of his temper tantrums.

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One way that I’ve heard from a professional to stop this cycle:  every time he even so much as mentions the word ’suicide’, call 911.  Threatening suicide is not a threat, it’s a call for help.  He will either get the help that he needs when they come pick him up, or he will stop making the threats.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -He says he will commit suicide if I don’t divorce him.  Am I suppose to take this seriously or assume it’s just another one of his temper tantrums.

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If he is threatening suicide, then professional help is needed.  However, don’t let his life become your responsibility.  Call a suicide hotline and ask for help for him. Stephi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He says he will commit suicide if I don’t divorce him.  Am I suppose to take this seriously or assume it’s just another one of his temper tantrums.

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He says he will commit suicide if I don’t divorce him.  Am I suppose to take this seriously or assume it’s just another one of his temper tantrums.

If you DON’T divorce him?  Then divorce him.  If he’s gonna kill himself, you can’t stop him.

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He says he will commit suicide if I don’t divorce him.  Am I suppose to take this seriously or assume it’s just another one of his temper tantrums.

"If you don’t divorce him"?  Why is he trying to force you to assume responsibility for this?  If he’s so desperate, why doesn’t he file for divorce from you?  Does he honestly think this is something only you can do? As for taking it seriously, maybe he means it, maybe he doesn’t.  The one thing he needs to understand _right now_ is that if he chooses to kill himself, it is entirely his responsibility — just the same as it’s his responsibility to file for the divorce if the marriage has become so intolerable to him he feels he has to resort such childish threats. Especially when it would be just as easy for him to file the paperwork as you. Just my opinions, probably made in the absence of all the available and relevant facts, but there it is… Rebecca

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He says he will commit suicide if I don’t divorce him.  Am I suppose to take this seriously or assume it’s just another one of his temper tantrums.

First question. Because you have a rocketmail e-mail account, I can’t tell where you’re from, so do you have to *agree* to a divorce before one will happen?? Second question. Why would *you* want to be with someone who seems to prefer to be dead than be married?? (That, of course, is assuming he’s serious. I, myself, tend to take all threats of suicide as serious. Even if he is NOT actively suicidal and making the plans and all, just the fact the he would *wish* he was dead if he had to continue being married shows that the desire to be divorced is pretty strong for him.) Tracey

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Question:

What DID happen to Richard Hittleman? At one time his was the only book available. I never see any ads or articles about him in the Yoga Journal…is he still living????? Anybody know????

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Richard Hittleman did put out several tapes.  Those of which I know are; 1.  Hatha Yoga Course #1, parts 1& 2 2.  Hatha Yoga Course #2, parts 1 & 2 3.  Meditation They are all over 5 years old and mine were put out by Clear Lake Productions in Scotts Valley, CA, (near Santa Cruz). I understand he died some time ago. I believe his tapes are still the best I have used. Good Luck

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Can anyone be of assistance by letting me know if he has any instructional tapes?  Even though I enjoy and benefit greatly from the ones I currently have, his is the style I grew up with, and in many ways, prefer.  To attend  a formal class is inconvenient for me at this time, so the tapes are the best way for me to go. Many thank yous CJ

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