Question:
[...] Kd: (about Mr. Ken Wilber)
[...] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t recommend Ken Wilber but that is essentially his position on the enlightened ones, (he licks the boot of the Rakshasha Adi da [aka Bubba Freejohn]) that " The small ego does not evaporate; it remains as the functional center of activity in the conventional realm…..And that means we do not "get rid" of the small ego, but rather, we inhabit it fully, live it with verve, use it as the necessary vehicle through which higher truths are communicated." and finally "Put bluntly, the ego is not an obstruction to Spirit, but a radiant manifestation of Spirit." Well I guess we can all throw away our meditation cushions, our work is done here.
Dear KD, It seems you don’t understood Mr. Wilber here. To paraphrase the rest of it. Experience of the supreme means that you have super egos, that you live life to the fullest, that food tastes foodyer and sex is sexier, and life is lifeyer.
It indeed isn’t very spiritual to reject life. You seem to beliefe in the rejection of life in order to be(come) "spiritual"? We have the inflated expanded ego, personal plus. SUPER EGO!!!!!
I wonder what healthy sensual sensations have to do with an super ego … Now seeing Iyengar on the teaching floor, and he is supposed to be enlightened….
You are the only one who can tell this. as I said in the original post, I may well suffer from an enlightenment fantasy, and then reading the crap of Ken Wibler’s it’s enough to make one throw their hands in the air snap their fingers and say Svaha!!! To be honest I never really felt that my comments about Iyengar were disparaging in the sense that I was saying something that wasn’t true.
"Truth" can sometimes have wide ranges … it is true to you. "Truth cannot be expressed. The most one can do is to hint at it, to give an impetus to the thought. Everyone must find truth for himself, by himself." — P.D. Ouspensky These are the words that are used to indentify this sort of behaviour.
These are the words YOU use… Please don’t hide behind some sort of beliefe – YOU are making a statement here. "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. Speak or act with pure mind, and happiness will follow you as your shadow, unshakable." — Buddha I don’t think I need to have a close relationship with someone to be qualified to make such a judgement.
That is a very true sentence! Thank you for it – we can learn through it. To judge a person this way you indeed can’t have a personal relationship. If you would have a personal, close, heartfelt relationship you wouldn’t be able to judge this way, you wouldn’t even be able to judge at all. The heart isn’t judging. It does deeply understand. You just have to be a witness to it.
To be a witness you have to totally free yourself from judgements. To witness in the spiritual way means to withdraw from judging. Give up judging and you’ll become intuitive. Yoga is a means by which one goes beyond the passions that tangle us up in life. This man has alot of passion and perhaps he can’t see it as such.
Fortunately he has! Imagine a life without passion for it. Even buddhist monks are joyful about every ray of sun, every day of life. To life life like a candle – to burn yourself to enlight your environment. Does anyone do him a service by not pointing it out. If he has done so much for so many yet no one would dare to do this service for him, perhaps they have, I don’t know, but if they haven’t then they should.
You sound like he is your father and you have an argument with him … 
"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves." — Carl Jung Don’t let this lesson to understand more about yourself, your feelings, your passions, your relationships, your ego, etc. go by. Because: "Everyone on Earth has a treasure that awaits him. We, people’s hearts, seldom say much about those treasures, because people no longer want to go in search of them. Very few follow the path laid out for them – the path to their Personal Legends, and to happiness." — Paulo Coelho kd
Thank you. Blessings, Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh
Response:
man, you rock! that sounds so childish, but for me seems to be summing it up…you’re defending yourself with passionate (oops, sorry no-insult intended;-), defiant free-thinking…its such a breath of fresh air, its rare for me to see people who will disagree with these gurus & published authors, and can do it so well. good on ya, charlie
Response:
Dear KD, It seems you don’t understood Mr. Wilber here. It indeed isn’t very spiritual to reject life. You seem to beliefe in the rejection of life in order to be(come) "spiritual"?
What you call life others including myself call samsara. If you believe that you will attain the atman by pursuing sensual enjoyment then by all means continue. Please indulge yourself to the fullest. Yoga is a method by which one goes beyond the senses and the desires and not one that enhances them for self gratification especially at the expense of others. The rejection of life is destructive behaviour to ones self and others or hadn’t you noticed. Preventing one from attaining Mukti by advocating indulgence in sensual enjoyment at the expense of ones yogic discipline is destructive to ones spiritual progress and to life. (spare me the crap about there being no real progress) Hari Har Singh wrote I wonder what healthy sensual sensations have to do with an super ego … Kd: What it has to do with a super ego. Ask Wilber it’s his rationalization. The senses are means by which we get through life in yoga in order to sustain the body, not to acquire wealth, fornicate at leisure, and or act in an uncontrolled manner. Yoga is discipline for the mind and the body, and Brahmacarya is prime, even the householder should abstain and only engage in sex for the production of offspring. But thats not how you see it in your modernized perspective now is it? Hari Har Singh wrote Now seeing Iyengar on the teaching floor, and he is supposed to be enlightened…. You are the only one who can tell this.
Kd: Really! How do you know what I can tell? Hari Har Singh wrote
"Truth cannot be expressed. The most one can do is to hint at it, to give an impetus to the thought. Everyone must find truth for himself, by himself." — P.D. Ouspensky
Kd: Well if Ouspensky said it then it must be true. Like the deconstructionists that say there is no truth which is a truth. You are too much. There is no truth, that everyone’s interpretation of the information they receive through the senses is so warped and twisted then nobody can convey any experiences or information and a prime example of that would be the so called yogi Bhajan. So then by writing this in order to demonstrate that truth is subjective or imply it to be so, then in your mind Brahman is not the truth, or rather just for some people and not for others, is that what your saying here? These are the words that are used to indentify this sort of behaviour. These are the words YOU use…
Kd: No those are the words that the dictionary uses to identify this sort of behaviour and I use them in turn so most english speaking people can understand what I mean which it would appear that you can’t.
Please don’t hide behind some sort of beliefe – YOU are making a statement here.
Who is hiding. Man are you astute. Of course I am making a statement here and I am receiving alot of flack because I don’t agree with the dictatorial methods of the man. Have you ever read "For Your own Good: Hidden cruelty in child rearing and the roots of violence" by Alice Miller. 70 or so pages of German child rearing methods, all excerpts? If not maybe you should read it and then you might understand where just such a teaching style arises from. But then you probably have had a life time of that anyway and being on the inside its hard to see out. "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. Speak or act with pure mind, and happiness will follow you as your shadow, unshakable." — Buddha
Kd: That’s nice, which sutra? Oh ya, I’m not a buddhist. Isn’t he the guy that couldn’t cut it at yoga or something? To judge a person this way you indeed can’t have a personal relationship. If you would have a personal, close, heartfelt relationship you wouldn’t be able to judge this way, you wouldn’t even be able to judge at all. The heart isn’t judging. It does deeply understand. You just have to be a witness to it. To be a witness you have to totally free yourself from judgements. To witness in the spiritual way means to withdraw from judging.
Give up judging and you’ll become intuitive. Kd: Ya right, well I am sure that you will be doing just that while indulging in all those healthy sensual enjoyments. If you don’t make judgements how will you know which one to do and when, oh ya intuition, I’ve got it. So lets see, a group of skinheads are thumping people and good old Hari Har singh will pass no judgements on the actions as they come over and kick him to death for not being what they want him to be. You talk the talk but you don’t walk the walk cause if you did you would never have written this post or any other post you would just be that witness you are clicking your keyboard over. Did you find all your quotes by intuition, well if you did you better work on that. And the part that I like best about this is that you haven’t seen Iyengar teach or criticize cause if you did you would be rationalizing his behaviour which mean you’d know what I am talking about. The only post that has anything to say about this is stu’s and he’s not denying it but rationalizing it, cause he knows what I am talking about and you don’t. And better yet yet due to your built in prejudices and obvious bias you can’t even comprehend what I am talking about nor make an attempt to. Yoga is a means by which one goes beyond the passions that tangle us up in life. This man has alot of passion and perhaps he can’t see it as such. Fortunately he has! Imagine a life without passion for it. Even buddhist monks are joyful about every ray of sun, every day of life.
Kd: Even Buddhist monks! What are they garbage or something, even buddhist monks….. Ya I do imagine a life without passion for it. There is only Brahman, the rest is a distraction. But not for you, good! You sound like he is your father and you have an argument with him …
Kd: I thank Siva and Vishnu that he isn’t my father if what I saw is the way he would treat his children if he was or is a father. But according to Stu this is not the case, he does a Jekll and Hyde routine. But then perhaps in some past life he was my father….better not get hypnotized and remember that, probably just be alot of yelling anyway. "Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves." — Carl Jung Don’t let this lesson to understand more about yourself, your feelings, your passions, your relationships, your ego, etc. go by.
Kd: You should reread that part for yourself cause its really not clicking in there for you is it. Its pretty obvious that you don’t like me speaking out, especially about injustice, when it’s about one of your cherished institutions, or newage wannabe gurus, you would rather hide behind your keyboard and imply because in your mind being direct or labeling someone or something is wrong. This is why so many went to the gas chambers a long time ago, and with attitudes like yours they will probably be going again because everyone will fear to speakout and in doing so invoke the displeasure of such thoughtful people such as yourself. Which again comes down to some truth that you hold dear but haven’t got the intestinal fortitude to say anyway. have a nice day kd
Response:
Evidently you have not been to classes with my teacher. Most beginning Iyengar yoga classes will be fairly mechanical however once you have mastered the asanas, Iyengar method progresses. The classes change a lot for students with at least five years of a practice.
Evidently, but how would I know? What is your teacher’s name? Even if you study with his senior teachers, this is what one gets. If you are ever in the Redmond Washington area you may want to check out Aadil Palkhivala.
Thanks very much for that info. Next opportunity he comes this way, I will try a class. You have to have your head in the sand to somehow think otherwise. Now there are a few who call their classes Iyengar Yoga, but who interject their own things. Such people when caught are told to not call their classes Iyengar Yoga. You can also take Iyengar style pranayama classes. This is not mixed with asana class. You will not get any spiritual direction in such classes and anyone who thinks so is deluded (or at least haven’t studied with the same senior Iyengar teachers that I have.) Balderdash. As I said before if you go to an Iyengar method workshop they are going to tend to teach to the lowest denominator. Even when I have been to teacher workshops this is the case.
Well, this is where we seem to differ (no I haven’t checked out Mr. Palkhivala yet), but have checked out classes taught from many including Gita Iyengar, Ramanand Patel, Manuso, and enough others that were rated as levels 4-5 and especially even there indeed I found the classes extremely mechanical and the use of props extremely high (especially classes taught by Mr. Patel). Now I am not putting this down, only sharing my experience. Every school has their own "style" and although various instructors will vary, the Iyengar school is heavy on mechanical detail and props — it’s just what it has been from the early seventies when I took my first Iyengar style class. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now I am not saying that Mr. Iyengar has not made an outstanding contribution to the detail of asana and pranayama practice (some may argue understandably that the detail is a bit too strict and confining). But Mr. Iyengar is to be commended for these contributions. Also (and I have met Mr. Iyengar also) he is a very religious person who does meditation, puja, and other practices himself. His yoga therapy clinic also has done much good for the crippled and ill. So to be fair, there are two sides of this coin. One Mr. Iyengar has contributed much to the science and refinement of asana practice on one hand. On another hand the courses taught in his name have done much to associate the word, yoga, with mere mechanical performance of the asana with little else included. In India, that is ok, as the general public have their own spiritual practice and do not associate yoga asanas as something distinct from spiritual practice. In the West, I do not think Mr. Iyengar, like many other Indians, really understand the Western psyche, nor the possible negative consequences of such an overly left brain and mechanical approach in an already imbalanced (overly left brain) society. No one is perfect, but vredit is due where it is due.
I was trying to be fair and show both sides adding perspective. When you are in India, you will see that the Indian (in general) is bit distracted and more right brain oriented than a westerner, hence more attention to details may be of use in that regard. The Westerner on the other hand (of course this too is a generalization and there are of course exceptions) is often too rigid (both in thought and in his body) and personally I find reducing the asanas to mechanical detail is stifling, severely limiting, and counter-productive to my own purposes. This is not to say that the "eyes" of a well trained Iyengar teacher has developed can not be put to good use within the broader context of asana and yoga practice. To me this is not an either/or proposition, pro or con, and I have no need to bash Mr. Iyengar nor do I have a need to defend the practice. I beleive that it may serve a function to characterize a yoga style one way or the other without using value judgements (good or bad) but rather describing their unique methods and goals. Obviously Mr. Iyengar sees hatha yoga as a means to awaken the kundalini and he has stated this many times, but this is not the type of training that students receive from classes taught by Iyengar style teachers. Is this bad or good? How should I know or care? Now if you say that some teacher who has been certified by the Iyengar process, now teaches breath in the asana classes, tehn I say that is fine with me, but this is no longer Iyengar style yoga, is it not, but rather it has been changed to something else? Stu, please do not take this as an attack. Have you onkly studied with one Iyengar style teacher or many? I libve in Northern California and have studied with many, so I can generalize somewhat in comparison and say that they fall in a certain category because of their unique approach in comparison to other styles who also have their unique characteristics. Ja?
Response:
Lots of nonsense here. Anybody who has ever attended an Iyengar Yoga class in the USA which is taught by the books will experience asana with props and that is all.
Evidently you have not been to classes with my teacher. Most beginning Iyengar yoga classes will be fairly mechanical however once you have mastered the asanas, Iyengar method progresses. The classes change a lot for students with at least five years of a practice. Even if you study with his senior teachers, this is what one gets.
If you are ever in the Redmond Washington area you may want to check out Aadil Palkhivala. his bio: He began formal yoga study under BKS Iyengar at the age of seven, and today, as one of the world’s top yoga teachers, holds a rare Advanced Yoga Teacher’s Certificate. In addition, Aadil holds degrees in law, physics, mathematics, and is a certified Shiatsu and Swedish therapist, Clinical Hypnotherapist, and prominent public educator. Acclaimed as "the teacher of teachers," Aadil is the Co-Founder/Director of "Yoga Centers" along with his wife, Mirra. His classes generally don’t include props. He will always approach the physical from the spiritual. You have to have your head in the sand to somehow think otherwise. Now there are a few who call their classes Iyengar Yoga, but who interject their own things. Such people when caught are told to not call their classes Iyengar Yoga. You can also take Iyengar style pranayama classes. This is not mixed with asana class. You will not get any spiritual direction in such classes and anyone who thinks so is deluded (or at least haven’t studied with the same senior Iyengar teachers that I have.)
Balderdash. As I said before if you go to an Iyengar method workshop they are going to tend to teach to the lowest denominator. Even when I have been to teacher workshops this is the case. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now I am not saying that Mr. Iyengar has not made an outstanding contribution to the detail of asana and pranayama practice (some may argue understandably that the detail is a bit too strict and confining). But Mr. Iyengar is to be commended for these contributions. Also (and I have met Mr. Iyengar also) he is a very religious person who does meditation, puja, and other practices himself. His yoga therapy clinic also has done much good for the crippled and ill. So to be fair, there are two sides of this coin. One Mr. Iyengar has contributed much to the science and refinement of asana practice on one hand. On another hand the courses taught in his name have done much to associate the word, yoga, with mere mechanical performance of the asana with little else included. In India, that is ok, as the general public have their own spiritual practice and do not associate yoga asanas as something distinct from spiritual practice. In the West, I do not think Mr. Iyengar, like many other Indians, really understand the Western psyche, nor the possible negative consequences of such an overly left brain and mechanical approach in an already imbalanced (overly left brain) society. No one is perfect, but vredit is due where it is due.
Mr. Iyengar sees asanas as a platform for the rest of the ashtanga. This explains the emphasis on asana practice. — ~Stu – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I was in living in Bombay and studying with Guruji I recall his saying that his approach had been dismissed as acrobatics. If you read his books or study with him, you will soon learn that he does NOT focus only on asanas. I do not know where this idea arose but it is completely inaccurate. Iyengar’s interpretation of the Yoga Sutras is that the body must be prepared for pranayama. This is done through asanas. Pranayama is not mere breathing exercises; it has powerful effects on the individual. In his class, we sometimes did pranayama for 1.5 hours. However, we were repeatedly cautioned not to go beyond our ability and readiness. Obviously, many students will have to spend a lot of time on asanas before they can begin advanced Pranayama–at least in Iyengar’s classes. But, he does not emphasize asanas as an end in itself. The best way to understand his approach, other than speaking with him, is to read his explanation of the Yoga Sutras in his books. Leon P.S. Obviously a teacher who only focuses on asanas would not have written an entire book on Pranayama alone! — Leon C. Pereira Ph.D. Clinical Psychologist Owner, The Cult of Lowden (Guitar Mailing list) http://www.egroups.com/files/lowden-l/Home.html
Response:
1) What exactly did Iyengar say to his students? Are we talking criticism, name-calling, bigotry or outright slander?
I am getting tired of this so this will be the last post with regards to Iyengar’s teaching method. You guys will wear me out and soon I will be making a trip to India saying that I am sorry I ever said anything about his abusive teaching methods. I would say that you covered all the bases there save bigotry, and I might add that if he were an instructor in a University in the US or Canada, he would be out the door, before he knew what hit him. 2) I believe that you have misinterpreted Wilber.
KD: The key word here is ‘believe’ which doesn’t mean ‘know’. The original post goes back a few months. Wilber goes from calling the ego an obstruction to saying that it isn’t. Also the turkey bandies Hindu and Buddhist sanskrit around to create his own little unified cosmic field theory like it means the same thing and it doesn’t. He attempts to rationalizes the inappropriate actions of charlatans and fake gurus who do not hold to moral conduct, non violence, or the Yamas (self restraints). But if the shoe fits wear it meaning if you want this kind of experience then go for it. And when some Guru is telling you that in order to deal with your neurosis you and your family have to go down on the all male Volleyball team while being sodomized by his pet donkey you will truly earn the name kidvegas cause you will be a winner. (how humiliating for the donkey) kidvegas wrote Realizing god does not solve your personal neurosis.
kd: Says you. Basically I would say from that statement that you really have no idea about the process other than what you have read in books and theorized about in bullshit transpersonal pysch courses all to the good glory of Ken Guber in his attempts to become known as the modern codifier of the process in Western Scientific terms. In as few words as possible, First off, one turns the mind away from the senses, with the object to quiet the mind waves and turn ones attention to the self. The mind never becomes quiet in fact once turned towards the self it is intensified, but the mindwaves which comprise your neurosises lose their power and disappear. Once this is done it stays there in Sahaj Nirvikalpi Samadhi, the ego is like a burnt rope has no power, along with your neurosises. But wait don’t tell me, its ineffectual because that’s only for Indians who have been culturally acclimatized to it and we westerners need other techniques that are more attuned to our particular idiosyncrasies developed by Uncle Kenny. However, that does not mean your neurosis(hey we’ve all got some) cannot be solved.
Kd: Ya, and Wiber has more than most.
Wilber’s most recent framework provides different lines of development, such as moral development, ego development,spatial intelligence etc.
Kd: He must be happy that someone is buying his books.
Think of it this way: No amount of doing push-ups will make your hamstrings longer.
Kd: You are a funny guy since we are not talking about doing pushups and the analogy is faulty. Meditation is the focusing of ones attention on one and you shouldn’t deviate from that and thats it pretty much in a nutshell. One does not do pushups to lengthen their hamstrings unless they are Ken Wilber or yourself, they do it to strengthen the biceps deltoids and Pectorls. But one does focus on the self by concentrating on the thought ‘I’. I suggest you read Baba Hari Dass’s commentary on Patanjali’s sutras and quit wasting your time with Ladi da’s bum boy
Wilber advocates <BIntegral</B practice, meaning that you meditate, seek psychotherapy, exercise, have fun etc.
Kd: Wilber advocates creating an industry for all those middle class white Euro/Amer degree carrying would be gurus who are well read and under experienced and are now wondering what the hell did they spend all their hard earned money on and are probably considering getting back into multilevel marketing. But hey have fun anyway kd
Response:
He is indeed truly amazing he was rude to you for passing judgements on him. KD: What is truly amazing is that you come from england and you can’t read english. Ya, to me he was rude.
[snip rest of diatribe] Mr. Iyengar has a unique teaching style. You may be critical of it but it works. He put a great deal of value on precise use of hatha yoga and how to integrate it into a practice that will bring benefits and satisfaction. In class he is an unyielding tiger however outside of class he is the pussycat that surrounds himself with the teachings of Patanjali with grace and quiet dignity. What you saw on the videotape was a show that Mr. Iyengar puts on to humble the practitioner and cue him to the seriousness of his sadhana. It is okay to be critical of it but unless you have experienced the man first hand it is really difficult to pass judgement on the man. Mr. Iyengar has truly dedicated the last 76 some years of his life to progressing the cause of yoga throughout the world. — ~Stu – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
it’s nice to know that if you meet the man at the supermarket he won’t brow beat you into a neurosis for incorrect posture. I wonder if such about face behaviour were in anyone else, say someone to whom your feelings were indifferent and there were no biases, would you feel the same way? I am happy that you have found your ideal in such authoritarian behaviour. Acceptance only leads to continuance. Truly this is the dawning of the age of Aquarius. kd
One thing I do like about Mr. Iyengar is that he never claimed to be anybody’s "ideal". He does everything he can to not be a "guru". This is the reason he does not have a title like Maharishi or Swami. He prefers simple Mister. If you come to Pune to learn yoga he will do everything he can to make sure you do not stay too long. He prefers his students go out in the world and spread the word as soon as possible. He is a little older than 90 years old now. I know that his teacher Krishnamacherya also had a similar teaching style. Perhaps it was part of a style that made sure that the prospective student was fully committed to learning. Tough love. — ~Stu
Response:
Bring on the controversy! Yeah!(Very enlightened, aren’t I?) Two things 1) What exactly did Iyengar say to his students? Are we talking criticism, name-calling, bigotry or outright slander? 2) I believe that you have misinterpreted Wilber. Realizing god does not solve your personal neurosis. However, that does not mean your neurosis(hey we’ve all got some) cannot be solved. Wilber’s most recent framework provides different lines of development, such as moral development, ego development,spatial intelligence etc. Think of it this way: No amount of doing push-ups will make your hamstrings longer. Wilber advocates <BIntegral</B practice, meaning that you meditate, seek psychotherapy, exercise, have fun etc. — Live and Let Live Alex Vegas Deja tries to feed me a cookie every five seconds, Am I being fattened up for the ill? Before you buy.
Response:
Lots of nonsense here. Anybody who has ever attended an Iyengar Yoga class in the USA which is taught by the books will experience asana with props and that is all. Even if you study with his senior teachers, this is what one gets. You have to have your head in the sand to somehow think otherwise. Now there are a few who call their classes Iyengar Yoga, but who interject their own things. Such people when caught are told to not call their classes Iyengar Yoga. You can also take Iyengar style pranayama classes. This is not mixed with asana class. You will not get any spiritual direction in such classes and anyone who thinks so is deluded (or at least haven’t studied with the same senior Iyengar teachers that I have.) Now I am not saying that Mr. Iyengar has not made an outstanding contribution to the detail of asana and pranayama practice (some may argue understandably that the detail is a bit too strict and confining). But Mr. Iyengar is to be commended for these contributions. Also (and I have met Mr. Iyengar also) he is a very religious person who does meditation, puja, and other practices himself. His yoga therapy clinic also has done much good for the crippled and ill. So to be fair, there are two sides of this coin. One Mr. Iyengar has contributed much to the science and refinement of asana practice on one hand. On another hand the courses taught in his name have done much to associate the word, yoga, with mere mechanical performance of the asana with little else included. In India, that is ok, as the general public have their own spiritual practice and do not associate yoga asanas as something distinct from spiritual practice. In the West, I do not think Mr. Iyengar, like many other Indians, really understand the Western psyche, nor the possible negative consequences of such an overly left brain and mechanical approach in an already imbalanced (overly left brain) society. No one is perfect, but vredit is due where it is due. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I was in living in Bombay and studying with Guruji I recall his saying that his approach had been dismissed as acrobatics. If you read his books or study with him, you will soon learn that he does NOT focus only on asanas. I do not know where this idea arose but it is completely inaccurate. Iyengar’s interpretation of the Yoga Sutras is that the body must be prepared for pranayama. This is done through asanas. Pranayama is not mere breathing exercises; it has powerful effects on the individual. In his class, we sometimes did pranayama for 1.5 hours. However, we were repeatedly cautioned not to go beyond our ability and readiness. Obviously, many students will have to spend a lot of time on asanas before they can begin advanced Pranayama–at least in Iyengar’s classes. But, he does not emphasize asanas as an end in itself. The best way to understand his approach, other than speaking with him, is to read his explanation of the Yoga Sutras in his books. Leon P.S. Obviously a teacher who only focuses on asanas would not have written an entire book on Pranayama alone! — Leon C. Pereira Ph.D. Clinical Psychologist Owner, The Cult of Lowden (Guitar Mailing list) http://www.egroups.com/files/lowden-l/Home.html
Response:
When I was in living in Bombay and studying with Guruji I recall his saying that his approach had been dismissed as acrobatics. If you read his books or study with him, you will soon learn that he does NOT focus only on asanas. I do not know where this idea arose but it is completely inaccurate. Iyengar’s interpretation of the Yoga Sutras is that the body must be prepared for pranayama. This is done through asanas. Pranayama is not mere breathing exercises; it has powerful effects on the individual. In his class, we sometimes did pranayama for 1.5 hours. However, we were repeatedly cautioned not to go beyond our ability and readiness. Obviously, many students will have to spend a lot of time on asanas before they can begin advanced Pranayama–at least in Iyengar’s classes. But, he does not emphasize asanas as an end in itself. The best way to understand his approach, other than speaking with him, is to read his explanation of the Yoga Sutras in his books. Leon P.S. Obviously a teacher who only focuses on asanas would not have written an entire book on Pranayama alone! — Leon C. Pereira Ph.D. Clinical Psychologist Owner, The Cult of Lowden (Guitar Mailing list) http://www.egroups.com/files/lowden-l/Home.html
Response:
[snip] Too bad, he doesn’t seem to know what is Yoga; i.e., union of Atman with Brahman There is no "union" of Atman with Brahman. Atman *is* Brahman, always.
Atman is limited identity due to ignorance, removal of the ignorance is supposed to enable one to realize the unity with Brahman.
Response:
[snip] Too bad, he doesn’t seem to know what is Yoga; i.e., union of Atman with Brahman There is no "union" of Atman with Brahman. Atman *is* Brahman, always.
To be absolutely precise, the term yoga means only union. It is also applied in things such as astrology to describe various ways of combining the planetary effects at different angles.
Response:
[snip] Too bad, he doesn’t seem to know what is Yoga; i.e., union of Atman with Brahman There is no "union" of Atman with Brahman. Atman *is* Brahman, always. Atman is limited identity due to ignorance, removal of the ignorance is supposed to enable one to realize the unity with Brahman.
Atman is not limited identity. Atman is the very *existence* of Brahman as the very basis of human identity. Atman *is* Brahman. Jiva is the limited identity due to ignorance. Vivekananda says: "Jiva is Atman mixed with Maya (ignorance)." The wise one [i.e., the Atman, the Self] is not born, nor dies. This one has not come from anywhere, has not become anyone. Unborn, constant, eternal, primeval, this one Is not slain when the body is slain. Know thou the Self (Atman) as riding in a chariot, The body as the chariot. Know thou the intellect (buddhi) as the chariot-driver, And the mind as the reins. Higher than the senses are the objects of sense. Higher than the objects of sense is the mind; And higher than the mind is the intellect (buddhi). Higher than the intellect is the Great Self (Atman). –Katha Upanishad "Aupamanyava, whom do you reverence as the Atman?" "The heaven indeed, sir, O King," said he. "The Universal Atman is, verily, that brightly shining one which you reverence as the Atman…. –Chandogya Upanishad "This highest aim of all disciplines, all spiritual paths, is the attainment of the knowledge of the Atman." –Swami Vivekananda
Response:
I did not see the video, and am disappointed to hear of such demeaning behavior from one who writes so clearly about the ideal of ahimsa.
Kd: Ya, that’s what it was for me disappointment when I saw it cause his books are all over the place and he is a recognized authority. I suspect that it is a cultural thing more than anything else. I live in asia and asian teachers are hard taskmasters, but that style is not for me. My students complain to me constantly. I read a story once where the founder of Jainism Mahavira had a teacher before he became a tirthankara, I’ve forgotten the name, but this teacher was very kind to him, he is reportedly the last non abusive teacher (not strict). And when I read that story, Iyengar did come to mind. The one thing that I’ve heard from many people over the years is Iyengar teachers are pretty much a gaurantee when it comes to a good yoga class, whether that is true or not I don’t know. I am unqualified to comment on his behavior as I do not know the man, only his writings.
Kd: yup, if I didn’t see the video, I’d have nothing to say too. I am ignorant of guru-worship and know that were I to seek religious help from a "master" I would look to the wellbieng and good behavior of his disciples, outside the circle of professional disciple/administrators.
Kd: Outside of common sense, logic, adhering to non violence, and basically living a life according to the tenets of yogic discipline, which is following the eight limbs of yoga, I would hope to see some tricks from the guru. (cause I want the whole package, the whole shabang) You know be in 2 places at once, bring back the dead (necromancy where permitted by law…wouldn’t want he/she to break the law), feed the multitudes and time permitting part the red sea (its been done before…but I don’t mind) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Asana are powerful tools that promote health and in my case at least, a positive outlook. I cannot subscribe to discrimination and prejudice based on class, race, sex, wealth, or any other factor determined by birth, and I believe in "positive" discrimination where such factors would lead to disadvantage. I believe that though karma may or may not determine one’s birth that the weak and oppressed should be made strong either through treatment encouragement or if necessary through personal care and the oppressor be restrained in his oppression. To add burdens to the disadvantaged would be simply cruel and irreligious (in my sense). Perhaps, just a thought, Iyengar would have treated male disciples in a similar manner, maybe, you have a patronizing protective attitude toward women based on western concepts of chivalry, exacerbated by unsatisfactory sexual relations. This is pure speculation and there simply is not any way that usenet will provide an answer.
Kd: Didn’t get to see him do it to the guys but the one thing that went through my mind while I was watching was I was glad it wasn’t me demonstrating asanas, it would have probably given him a stroke anyway. Without knowing I would bet that the man equally abuses his students and doesn’t discriminate between the sexes, this is just a feeling of course. Some might say I stick my nose where it don’t belong and gender isn’t an issue. Chivalry!!! Don’t I need a white horse or something. Its more like shit disturbing. I find you outspoken and somewhat sincere, but from your assumptions it is clear that most of your perceptions are colored by emotion, or are imagined. You have a picture of me, where did it come from?
Kd: You might be one of the people in the picture that came with the frame that I bought. I too, do the same, another reason why I wish to master my mind and learn to discern the real from the imagined. Perhaps, like me, you provoke in order to probe. Right know I am questioning whether this is moral or constructive. I think perhaps… it is.
Kd: I’m not exactly sure what you mean. Go back to my original post. I told what I saw and gave my interpretation of it. I was really quite surprised by all the defense, even the idea that they are thankful for this kind of behaviour. Violence is the easy way out, being loved or feared, on the floor the man is feared. I even tried to rationalize his behaviour with the ‘once an asshole always an asshole’ comment, this position is something I don’t agree with, since if it is so, then why waste your time meditating, experiencing the truth really wouldn’t matter, it would be ineffectual on ones character and apprehension of reality. I don’t recommend Ken Wilber but that is essentially his position on the enlightened ones, (he licks the boot of the Rakshasha Adi da [aka Bubba Freejohn]) that " The small ego does not evaporate; it remains as the functional center of activity in the conventional realm…..And that means we do not "get rid" of the small ego, but rather, we inhabit it fully, live it with verve, use it as the necessary vehicle through which higher truths are communicated." and finally "Put bluntly, the ego is not an obstruction to Spirit, but a radiant manifestation of Spirit." Well I guess we can all throw away our meditation cushions, our work is done here. To paraphrase the rest of it. Experience of the supreme means that you have super egos, that you live life to the fullest, that food tastes foodyer and sex is sexier, and life is lifeyer. We have the inflated expanded ego, personal plus. SUPER EGO!!!!! Now seeing Iyengar on the teaching floor, and he is supposed to be enlightened….as I said in the original post, I may well suffer from an enlightenment fantasy, and then reading the crap of Ken Wibler’s it’s enough to make one throw their hands in the air snap their fingers and say Svaha!!! To be honest I never really felt that my comments about Iyengar were disparaging in the sense that I was saying something that wasn’t true. These are the words that are used to indentify this sort of behaviour. I don’t think I need to have a close relationship with someone to be qualified to make such a judgement. You just have to be a witness to it. Yoga is a means by which one goes beyond the passions that tangle us up in life. This man has alot of passion and perhaps he can’t see it as such. Does anyone do him a service by not pointing it out. If he has done so much for so many yet no one would dare to do this service for him, perhaps they have, I don’t know, but if they haven’t then they should. kd
Response:
it’s nice to know that if you meet the man at the supermarket he won’t brow beat you into a neurosis for incorrect posture. I wonder if such about face behaviour were in anyone else, say someone to whom your feelings were indifferent and there were no biases, would you feel the same way? I am happy that you have found your ideal in such authoritarian behaviour. Acceptance only leads to continuance. Truly this is the dawning of the age of Aquarius. kd
Response:
Dear dk: You and I have made several erroneous assumptions. I did not see the video, and am disappointed to hear of such demeaning behavior from one who writes so clearly about the ideal of ahimsa. I am unqualified to comment on his behavior as I do not know the man, only his writings. With regard to being selfish, indeed I am, the challenge of making myself well and promoting better characteristics that would bring greater love of life to myself and others is the reason I seek yoga. I am ignorant of guru-worship and know that were I to seek religious help from a "master" I would look to the wellbieng and good behavior of his disciples, outside the circle of professional disciple/administrators. Asana are powerful tools that promote health and in my case at least, a positive outlook. I cannot subscribe to discrimination and prejudice based on class, race, sex, wealth, or any other factor determined by birth, and I believe in "positive" discrimination where such factors would lead to disadvantage. I believe that though karma may or may not determine one’s birth that the weak and oppressed should be made strong either through treatment encouragement or if necessary through personal care and the oppressor be restrained in his oppression. To add burdens to the disadvantaged would be simply cruel and irreligious (in my sense). Perhaps, just a thought, Iyengar would have treated male disciples in a similar manner, maybe, you have a patronizing protective attitude toward women based on western concepts of chivalry, exacerbated by unsatisfactory sexual relations. This is pure speculation and there simply is not any way that usenet will provide an answer. There is much of scientific and spiritual interest in yoga at the same time, as with all sciences, there are negative and exploitative applications and byproducts/pollution. We have not, since the dawn of civilization , lived in a "natural" mental/emotional/physical environment and much of our political and other difficulties come from our relationship to each other in this unnatural structure. Unlike many yogins I do not believe in an unrecorded golden age, but I think we can only learn from the _past_ and apply it to the present, reversing the causes of our negative lessons and enhancing the positive. I find you outspoken and somewhat sincere, but from your assumptions it is clear that most of your perceptions are colored by emotion, or are imagined. You have a picture of me, where did it come from? I too, do the same, another reason why I wish to master my mind and learn to discern the real from the imagined. Perhaps, like me, you provoke in order to probe. Right know I am questioning whether this is moral or constructive. I think perhaps… it is.
Response:
Hi Saw a video of Iyengar at a teachers class. He was rude, obnoxious and totally demeaning to his teacher/students, and of course to me cause I’m the one passing judgements about him. Egotistical might sum it up in one word. There was no compassion in the man. I don’t know if it was a cultural thing either, meaning thats the way Indian teachers are towards their students or what. At the time I felt that he was an individual that had merely mastered asana but not the rest. Of course this notion was based on some fantasy that the enlightened state was a state that met certain positive or moralistic criteria. The idea that there really is no enlightenment may well mean ‘once an asshole always an asshole’ with Iyengar’s pedantic methodology as an indication of such, at least for me anyway. Ahhh we’re lost, forever lost. (thats Scotty in some star trek episode just before the fascist Cap’n Kirk has to beat him back to an acceptable state of obediance) kd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Rediff Interview – Yogacharya B K S Iyengar ‘I brought life into yoga, I made it very lively’ For Yogacharya B K S Iyengar, winning the Lifetime Achievement Award at the Priyadarshini Awards ceremony for service rendered to humanity in the field of yoga, is just another accolade in a rich lifetime. Born in a poor family in Bellur, Karnataka, in 1918, he has come a long way from being a weak and sickly child to becoming one of India’s greatest yoga teachers. He has received many prestigious awards like the Rajyotsava Award, 1988; the Patanjali Award, 1990; the Padma Shri in 1991; the Punya Bhushan Award, 1995; Health Care for 1996 Award; Swami Vivekanand Puraskar, 1999; and the Best Citizen of India Award, 2000, to name a few. Many international awards have come his way too, like the Man of the Year 1998, awarded by the American Biographical Institute; the International Man of the Year, 1998, awarded by the International Biographical Centre, Cambridge; and the Twentieth Century Award for Achievement. His name has been included in many national, Asian and international lists of Who’s Who, men of achievement and prominent personalities of India. Titles like Yogi Ratna and Yoganga Shikshaka Chakravarti have also been conferred upon him. The Film and Television Institute of India produced a film on Iyengar called Samadhi, which won the Silver Lotus Award. He was invited in 1985 to the Festival of India in France, where the film Guruji depicted his heroic struggle from poverty to prosperity. The master spoke to Ronjita Das last week. You have won the Lifetime Achievement Award for service rendered to humanity in the field of yoga. How do you rate this achievement? Yoga was a very dry subject 40 years ago. There were hardly three or four people learning yoga then, but now there are millions of people who learn yoga. The subject was not treated with respect in the early years, but I changed the whole scene. I brought life into yoga. I made it very lively. How did yoga become an important part of your life? I was suffering from tuberculosis, malaria and typhoid as a child. In those days, there was no treatment for these ailments. So I turned to yoga. How do you account for its popularity today? It spread by word of mouth. I have not made any conscious effort to promote yoga. No newspaper in Pune has ever given publicity to either my institute or to what is taught there. It became popular because of my dedication. When I was in England, I used to walk from Highgate to Hampstead, a distance of six miles, because I could not afford the bus. I used to send all the money I earned to my family in India. But I did not want to give up learning yoga. I was so dedicated! How receptive is the West to yoga? There are 180 Iyengar institutes in the world. There are 5,000 teachers abroad. In 1968, the educational department in London asked me if I could teach yoga in London without using Sanskrit words. I trained some teachers for 15 to 20 days before I too started teaching in London. Is your wife interested in yoga as well? Yes, very much. She used to teach yoga to women. In the early days, we were not really well off. But my wife encouraged me to learn yoga despite the financial hardships we were facing. Which is why I have named the Ramamani Iyengar Memorial Yoga Institute in Pune after her. My children also teach yoga. And now I have started training my grandchildren too. Is it an expensive way of keeping fit? Not at all. The Ramamani Iyengar Memorial Yoga Institute charges Rs 50 for four classes. You have devised several props with the help of which even a disabled person can perform various yoga postures. What made you think of this? Disabled people cannot perform yoga without help. So I had to think of a support system with which I could help such people do yoga. It is with this in mind that I devised some props. There are now 600 asanas which can be performed with props. Do you follow any special diet? No. I eat like any ordinary, middle-class Hindu man. Muscle vs meditation. Gymnasiums vs yoga. What are your views on these forms of exercise? The practice of yoga fulfils the need for enjoyment just as it provides enlightenment. A person should not be caught in the pursuit of enjoyment alone, he should experience enlightenment too. I mean, there should be action and motion. We must enjoy the action, not the motion. View photograph by Jewella C Miranda here: http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/sep/26bks2a.jpg Tuesday, September 26, 2000 Click on the Rediff link at News Plus http://www.mantra.com/newsplus Om Shanti Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works. <A HREF="http://www.mantra.com/newsplus/"<BJai’s News Plus</B</A Panchaang for 29 Bhadrapad 5101, Tuesday, September 26, 2000: Vikrama Nama Samvatsare 5102 Dakshinaya Jivana Ritau Kanya Mase Krishna Pakshe Mangala Vasara Yuktayam Poorvaphalguni-Uttarphalguni Nakshatra Shubha-Shukla Yoga Shakuni-Chatuspada Karana Chaturdashee-Amavasya Yam Tithau Jai’s News Plus http://www.mantra.com/newsplus Hindu Holocaust Museum http://www.mantra.com/holocaust Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy http://www.hindu.org http://www.hindunet.org Islam and Muslims http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate PayPal is a no-cost service that lets you ‘beam’ money https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=mantra%40mantra.com For-pay Internet distributed processing http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=17423 Open a no-cost, no-obligation real gold worldwide money account http://www.e-gold.com/e-gold.asp?cid=108077
Response:
He is indeed truly amazing he was rude to you for passing judgements on him.
KD: What is truly amazing is that you come from england and you can’t read english. Ya, to me he was rude. I would say the man is a misogynist right away from the abusive manner he treated the woman but then I can’t make that judgement against him because he isn’t a white hetrosexual male (if in fact it is the domain of such), so I just put it down to him being as being a rascal in particular and egotiscal swelled headed cad in general with the ability to twist his body up like a prezel and preach wornout platitudes that have been spoken before by endless numbers of would be gurus which vain individuals like yourself with ambitions for immortality eat up. Truly if I had such predictive power I would be insupportably arrogant supremely powerful and as rich as I chose.
KD: yes you would cause basically you are greedy and selfish and no doubt you are already incredibly arrogant and ignorant like the pup that runs to the rescue of its master that would kick it to death on a whim. A more compassionate individual would help others and use any sort of siddhis for there benefit. But not you. I suggest you have an axe to grind, I shall not use the language appropriate for other usenet groups but I suggest obnoxious and rude may be a projection of your own, seeing oneself as though in another.
KD: Oh my, you are so newage, so gentle. But if you truly were you would understand the import of ahimsa and why it is so necessary to be exemplified in the teacher. So if you see these negative things in me then according to your argument its in you too. The fact that out of the sanctity of this newsgroup you would control your language indicates that you are sensitive to the feelings of others, something that Iyengar, at least while he is on stage, is not. And if one would act like that in public then there cannot be any restraints on him to do so in private. But your inability to recognize the shortcomings of this self congratulatory braggart means that you too will succeed to the same heights as that man you so admire and will spew abuse to your hearts desire no matter how many people are watching and listening. And that is truly sad. You are damn right that I am rude and obnoxious to those that deserve it, and of course I can see it in him. So, according to your bogus comeback, if the seer sees an act that is vengeful, hateful, rude, demeaning, it is only in the seer and not what is seen. So once I rid myself of these negative qualities all the world will be a garden, there will be no avarice, murder, rape, killing, hatred and the rest of it because these qualities are only within my mind. And when that old fart that you idolize verbally abuses individuals or groups then I won’t recognize it as such. I’m surprised you can even type. Read more books boy, or get out of the room in your parents house and experience the world. Chris wrote With regard to arrogance it is a term which I tend to use to admonish myself or attack *political* opponents which I do liberally and with little thought to the justice of it. I feel perhaps you are opposed to him due to some other allegiance, sorry if I am wrong, that’s how it comes across.
Don’t say you are sorry, from what I have read in your post you are naturally so. Actually there is no other allegiance, if by that you mean to another individual in the same category as that rascal. He is considered a spiritual teacher by those that have been fooled like yourself. Yet he doesn’t adhere to ahimsa, sometimes I don’t either though I do take pains to do so, sometimes I am successful and others not. But he is supposed to all the time since non violence is the highest truth and he is a self proclaimed guru. Adhere to non violence and everything will follow accordingly. (Please,please argue with that one) He took a great deal of joy in adminstering mental pain to the women that were demonstrating asanas. Prior to the video I’d seen his books, the pictures, so when the opportunity came I watched. I certainly don’t like people being mean to others especially when it is uncalled for, this is when ahimsa goes out the door for me. And it was definetely uncalled for, especially on video tape. If I could say anything positive about the man, I would say that he was being honest and expressing himself as he actually felt about what was being demostrated and the demonstrators. Of course this would indicate that he had no regard for ahimsa. Violence hate and fear are the same thing. This is what you are defending and in doing so accussing me of it for pointing it out That’s a good lad, Mukti should be right around the corner for the likes of you. I hope so anyway. kd
Response:
Saw a video of Iyengar at a teachers class. He was rude, obnoxious and totally demeaning to his teacher/students, and of course to me cause I’m the one passing judgements about him.
He is indeed truly amazing he was rude to you for passing judgements on him. From a video? How did he know you would be watching the video? How did he predict you would "pass judgement on him" and how did he know when to time his response to you. Truly if I had such predictive power I would be insupportably arrogant supremely powerful and as rich as I chose. I suggest you have an axe to grind, I shall not use the language appropriate for other usenet groups but I suggest obnoxious and rude may be a projection of your own, seeing oneself as though in another. With regard to arrogance it is a term which I tend to use to admonish myself or attack *political* opponents which I do liberally and with little thought to the justice of it. I feel perhaps you are opposed to him due to some other allegiance, sorry if I am wrong, that’s how it comes across.
Response:
glad to hear you don’t mind the public humiliation when its your turn. kd
Response:
Too many words are often a weariness, but Guruji Iyengar has brought astangayoga to the hearts of many people, and it pains me to hear him being vilified. God bless us all. Suzdal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Saw a video of Iyengar at a teachers class. He was rude, obnoxious and totally demeaning to his teacher/students, and of course to me cause I’m the one passing judgements about him. Egotistical might sum it up in one word. There was no compassion in the man. I don’t know if it was a cultural thing either, meaning thats the way Indian teachers are towards their students or what. At the time I felt that he was an individual that had merely mastered asana but not the rest. Of course this notion was based on some fantasy that the enlightened state was a state that met certain positive or moralistic criteria. The idea that there really is no enlightenment may well mean ‘once an asshole always an asshole’ with Iyengar’s pedantic methodology as an indication of such, at least for me anyway. Ahhh we’re lost, forever lost. (thats Scotty in some star trek episode just before the fascist Cap’n Kirk has to beat him back to an acceptable state of obediance) kd The Rediff Interview – Yogacharya B K S Iyengar ‘I brought life into yoga, I made it very lively’ For Yogacharya B K S Iyengar, winning the Lifetime Achievement Award at the Priyadarshini Awards ceremony for service rendered to humanity in the field of yoga, is just another accolade in a rich lifetime. Born in a poor family in Bellur, Karnataka, in 1918, he has come a long way from being a weak and sickly child to becoming one of India’s greatest yoga teachers. He has received many prestigious awards like the Rajyotsava Award, 1988; the Patanjali Award, 1990; the Padma Shri in 1991; the Punya Bhushan Award, 1995; Health Care for 1996 Award; Swami Vivekanand Puraskar, 1999; and the Best Citizen of India Award, 2000, to name a few. Many international awards have come his way too, like the Man of the Year 1998, awarded by the American Biographical Institute; the International Man of the Year, 1998, awarded by the International Biographical Centre, Cambridge; and the Twentieth Century Award for Achievement. His name has been included in many national, Asian and international lists of Who’s Who, men of achievement and prominent personalities of India. Titles like Yogi Ratna and Yoganga Shikshaka Chakravarti have also been conferred upon him. The Film and Television Institute of India produced a film on Iyengar called Samadhi, which won the Silver Lotus Award. He was invited in 1985 to the Festival of India in France, where the film Guruji depicted his heroic struggle from poverty to prosperity. The master spoke to Ronjita Das last week. You have won the Lifetime Achievement Award for service rendered to humanity in the field of yoga. How do you rate this achievement? Yoga was a very dry subject 40 years ago. There were hardly three or four people learning yoga then, but now there are millions of people who learn yoga. The subject was not treated with respect in the early years, but I changed the whole scene. I brought life into yoga. I made it very lively. How did yoga become an important part of your life? I was suffering from tuberculosis, malaria and typhoid as a child. In those days, there was no treatment for these ailments. So I turned to yoga. How do you account for its popularity today? It spread by word of mouth. I have not made any conscious effort to promote yoga. No newspaper in Pune has ever given publicity to either my institute or to what is taught there. It became popular because of my dedication. When I was in England, I used to walk from Highgate to Hampstead, a distance of six miles, because I could not afford the bus. I used to send all the money I earned to my family in India. But I did not want to give up learning yoga. I was so dedicated! How receptive is the West to yoga? There are 180 Iyengar institutes in the world. There are 5,000 teachers abroad. In 1968, the educational department in London asked me if I could teach yoga in London without using Sanskrit words. I trained some teachers for 15 to 20 days before I too started teaching in London. Is your wife interested in yoga as well? Yes, very much. She used to teach yoga to women. In the early days, we were not really well off. But my wife encouraged me to learn yoga despite the financial hardships we were facing. Which is why I have named the Ramamani Iyengar Memorial Yoga Institute in Pune after her. My children also teach yoga. And now I have started training my grandchildren too. Is it an expensive way of keeping fit? Not at all. The Ramamani Iyengar Memorial Yoga Institute charges Rs 50 for four classes. You have devised several props with the help of which even a disabled person can perform various yoga postures. What made you think of this? Disabled people cannot perform yoga without help. So I had to think of a support system with which I could help such people do yoga. It is with this in mind that I devised some props. There are now 600 asanas which can be performed with props. Do you follow any special diet? No. I eat like any ordinary, middle-class Hindu man. Muscle vs meditation. Gymnasiums vs yoga. What are your views on these forms of exercise? The practice of yoga fulfils the need for enjoyment just as it provides enlightenment. A person should not be caught in the pursuit of enjoyment alone, he should experience enlightenment too. I mean, there should be action and motion. We must enjoy the action, not the motion. View photograph by Jewella C Miranda here: http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/sep/26bks2a.jpg Tuesday, September 26, 2000 Click on the Rediff link at News Plus http://www.mantra.com/newsplus Om Shanti Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works. <A HREF="http://www.mantra.com/newsplus/"<BJai’s News Plus</B</A Panchaang for 29 Bhadrapad 5101, Tuesday, September 26, 2000: Vikrama Nama Samvatsare 5102 Dakshinaya Jivana Ritau Kanya Mase Krishna Pakshe Mangala Vasara Yuktayam Poorvaphalguni-Uttarphalguni Nakshatra Shubha-Shukla Yoga Shakuni-Chatuspada Karana Chaturdashee-Amavasya Yam Tithau Jai’s News Plus http://www.mantra.com/newsplus Hindu Holocaust Museum http://www.mantra.com/holocaust Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy http://www.hindu.org http://www.hindunet.org Islam and Muslims http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate PayPal is a no-cost service that lets you ‘beam’ money https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=mantra%40mantra.com For-pay Internet distributed processing http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=17423 Open a no-cost, no-obligation real gold worldwide money account http://www.e-gold.com/e-gold.asp?cid=108077
Response:
From what I have heard, Mr. Iyengar may be arrogant, but he is an excellent teacher of the asanas, and dedicated to his students, having devoted his life to the study of how the asanas affect the health of the total body/mind/soul. He is also a philosopher and a very spiritually inclined man. For those of you who think he only concerns himself with the asanas, you may want to read his book, "The Tree of Yoga". He starts his first chapter with, "Yoga means union. The union of the individual soul with the Universal Spirit is yoga." He uses the image of a tree to write about the eight limbs of yoga, as well as writing about practical aspects on how to bring the practice of yoga into one’s life. For those of us who believe that yoga is a spiritual discipline for improving the whole of the person (body, mind, soul, union with the divine) and not a religion (there is a difference), this is a very readable, engaging book. Karen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LIVELY’ BKS Iyengar says: ‘I brought life into yoga, I made it very lively’ Too bad, he doesn’t seem to know what is Yoga; i.e., union of Atman with Brahman; and that there are many progressive aspects to these Hindu spiritual/religious disciplines; and that (Hatha) Yoga is only one minor aspect that needs to be put into perspective; and that one does not charge money for spiritual teachings; and that one does not simply make "yoga teachers" in a few weeks and too bad he doesn’t realize that these spiritual disciplines of Hinduism were and are alive and vital. Sounds like the cult of Iyengar. Ah! name and fame–very If Iyengar was ever a true Yogi he certainly appears to have fallen from that state. But he must be thanked for providing an important lesson. Jai Maharaj http://www.mantra.com/jyotish Om Shanti
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[snip] Too bad, he doesn’t seem to know what is Yoga; i.e., union of Atman with Brahman
There is no "union" of Atman with Brahman. Atman *is* Brahman, always. –jodyr. [snip]
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BKS Iyengar says: ‘I brought life into yoga, I made it very lively’
Too bad, he doesn’t seem to know what is Yoga; i.e., union of Atman with Brahman; and that there are many progressive aspects to these Hindu spiritual/religious disciplines; and that (Hatha) Yoga is only one minor aspect that needs to be put into perspective; and that one does not charge money for spiritual teachings; and that one does not simply make "yoga teachers" in a few weeks and too bad he doesn’t realize that these spiritual disciplines of Hinduism were and are alive and vital. Sounds like the cult of Iyengar. Ah! name and fame–very enticing.
Response:
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11d is not designed to enter into combat – never mind dude..