Question:
It is good to do hatha yoga – but its real and only purposes is to assist in meditation Hatha yoga is not as old as meditation. For the nth time you contradict yourself, Dubbeld.
Dear brother bramhan atmananda so you are now re inventing the yoga philosophy changing the basic purpose of various stepping stones of yoga, anyway why don’t you start "Brother Bramhan yoga" for idiots, I think it suits monkeys and wild animals evolve themselves with you. I am not accusing anyone. I am merely stating the facts. If you’re saying that it isn’t so, then prove it, coward.
Great Brother ! it seems you are the only person who knows yoga, sorry ! but that yoga is invented and developed by none other than great Guru & yogi of 21 st century Brother Bramhan Atmananda, a self proclaimed idiot without any decency of how to talk.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t be stupid, Dubbeld. I am not in any way implying that the non-sitting asanas predate meditation practice, neither did I say that they were developed in the same time period. Nor am I denying it. Hatha yoga has been around since meditation at least. BBA the above is what New whatever said/Dharmadeva and you responded you are correct.
Of course he is, he said: It is good to do hatha yoga – but its real and only purposes is to assist in meditation
And if you contradict that, then you’re wrong. Hatha yoga is not as old as meditation.
For the nth time you contradict yourself, Dubbeld. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stop contradicting yourself. You said: There is no historical record that you or anyone else can produce that can show hatha yoga was around anywhere near the traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita of 3102 – the start of the Kali Yuga on some accounts. Meditation is much older. But now you are saying that Hatha yoga has been around SINCE meditation. This is moronic inconsistency. What you are saying is correct. I do not dependent on Georg Feuerstein, or any other so-called "Indologist" and "yoga scholars". Feuerstein is such an idiot to support SAA Ramaiah and Marshall Govindan’s Mahavatar Babaji myth. He was also very irresponsible to present it as fact in his "The Shambala Encyclopedia of Yoga." Georg Feuerstein appears to be so highly impressionable and somewhat gullible. He never presented any real history but always say, "some say its like this, some say its like that". That style doesn’t make a true historian out of anybody. It is nothing but laziness. I don’t know about your myth. That isn’t my myth, it is SAA Ramaiah, Marshall Govindan and Feuerstein’s myth. I read Feuerstein’s works, I do not just speculate on what he could be writing, I know exactly what they are. If his story about Babaji isn’t a myth then prove it, Dubbeld. I don’t have to prove anything. It is YOU who are making such a fuss over Feurerstein/accusing him – NOT ME.
I am not accusing anyone. I am merely stating the facts. If you’re saying that it isn’t so, then prove it, coward. Sorry I am not reading the rest of your junk.
Then how did you know its junk? Most illogical accusation. Tell me precisely what is junk there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike Dubbeld He did not cite any evidence save the words of SAA Ramaiah, and SAA Ramaiah is a con artist. Scholars certainly do get a lot of things wrong but unlike others he is not in any particular lineage and has no particular reason to support one lineage over another. So if he is wrong it will not be due to his biased opinion but error That is absolutely stupid. Bias isn’t exclusive to people who belong to a sampradaya. Where did you get that? – for which people in a particular lineage are subject to both types of errors. Meaningless. Thats not to say that Georg does not bias the information. Everyone does that to some extent. Again you contradict yourself. It does mean that he is limited/has a reputation at stake for orienting information beyond a certain point. Of course he is limited, everyone is. That isn’t my point. You are totally off-topic here. It is also true that it is hard to pin dates on Georg but this is because it is hard to pin dates on the subjects themsleves. Not only dates but history, founders of certain schools and systems, disciplic lines in a jumble. What good is his writings then if he cannot be exact about any single thing? Nothing. What kind of a "scholar" is that? A counterfeit. By process of elimination however eliminates a lot of possibilities. Yoga has not been given anywhere near the intense attention of the Bible for example where scholars have shown many things the Church were totally wrong about. For instance the order of the Gospels and the Q source of information. Contradictory ‘facts’ showing a man to have lived for 500 years. Like Vyassa writing the Brahmanas/ Vedas/Mahabhara epic/Bhagavad Gita and more The Bhagavad Gita is a part of the Mahabharata epic, Mike. Even children know this. You aren’t reading enough. – probably more than one Vyasa if that was the case – same with Patanjali. This "probably" is what makes the information he present dubious. It is nothing but laziness. Instead of pointing out what Feuerstein gets wrong to me why don’t you tell him? The hell do I care about Feuerstein. Let him do his thing, he is an "Indologist" anyway. Instead of real archeological and anthropological research, he resorts to popular stories then draw his own conclusion based on what he personally fancy. You mean cause you found he got something wrong you did not like you wrote him off. The "you didn’t like" part doesn’t even come in. Being wrong about many things is enough to put him off. Who cares if I like Feuerstein or not, it isn’t about liking but about what he is giving to the public who buys his stuff. Also Feurerstein authored ‘In Search of the Craddle of Civilization.’ which is about the finding of the drying up of the Saraswati River around 2000 BC and a ton of cities buried where there once was a flourishing civilization. There was no Aryan Invasion – that was a Max Muller invention. Don’t tell me about Feuerstein not knowing about archaeology. He doesn’t know Archaelogy. The "there was no Aryan invention" story was first introduced by Yogananda to the West in the revised (1951) Autobiography of a Yogi. Feuerstein have nothing to do with it. Tell me any single significant and original yogic or Indologic discovery made by Feuerstein. Feuerstein also is saying in that book they expect to find that civilization in India is much older and will likely be proven from excavation. He’s merely picking. This is an old story. Feuerstein is just one of several scholars from which I have to choose from but he is the most widely known so I use him a lot. Feuerstein is the best there is today. Learn to limit your words to what you know. Feuerstein is the best there is today according to what you know. Mike Dubbeld Re-read what I have to say and you will see that the main point was that the asanas were created to enable the body to endure longer periods of meditative practice. There is no historical record that you or anyone else can produce that can show hatha yoga was around anywhere near the traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita of 3102 – the start of the Kali Yuga on some accounts. Meditation is much older. This is shown below in the Yoga Journal Article and by Feuerstein. Faith is one thing. Historical record quite another. I have since re-verified what I say 3 more different ways but since you either do not believe or don’t read my references I will keep them. Mike Dubbeld What you are saying is correct. Asanas weren’t originally meant for the fitness buffs but for those who aspire to sit longer in transcendence. The problem is that this limb has taken a life of its own in our era to the point that perfecting the poses became the object of what the uneducated majority terms as yoga practice. It is because for many years now these acrobats from India have been marketing their contortionist art as "Ashtanga Yoga" to the look-good-feel-good faddists. Hatha yoga has been around since meditation at least. It is good to do hatha yoga – but its real and only purposes is to assist in meditation Hatha Yoga is actually a late invention compared to meditation. The traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita is 3100 BC where Lord Krishna talks about Yoga but this was not refering to hatha yoga. If you notice in the Patanjali Yoga Sutras there is not much said either and not much on pranayama either. While Hatha Yoga has been around since second century AD per Georg Feurerstein (article below) as per Patanjali Yoga Sutras. Personally I believe the is likely wrong – more
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Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By showing that Patanjali says nothing about postures other than a seated posture is evidence hatha yoga was not around then. What do you think about the so-called proto-shiva seals found from Mohenjo-Daro: http://www.harappa.com/indus/33.html That particular seal is about 4500 years old and according to some is demonstrates mulabandhasana, an advanced seated asana. How do we explain that?
Hi Marcus, Personally I believe hatha yoga is much older than current historical data shows. This discussion has centered around proof of hatha yoga being older than 200 – 700 BC max. The pictograph is interesting but you have to remember that in the East and particularly in ancient times they likely sat like that normally. With the hands extended to the knees is also interesting but then you have to put your hands somewhere/how would you have drawn this? Georg Feurestein who is one of the greatest yogic scholars there is despite what BBA says – has a book out called ‘In Search of the Craddle of Civilization.’ Where he and some archaeologists have made a radical discovery – the Saraswati River changed course about 2000 BC. It was the result of a teutonic shift I believe. This means that hundreds of viliages and cities along that river suddenly found themselves with no means of support and had to move relatively quickly. Max Muller was wrong about the Aryan Invasion. No one ever had any proof it happened but if it did it would explain a lot of things. It was not however and invasion at all but a peaceful (likely for the most part) migration of people from the Saraswati River. The point is that they are uncovering cities that had advanced civilizations I believe 7000 BC complete with sewer and running water and with 20,000 inhabitants. But I did not look up these numbers so it is probable they are off. The bottom line is that they belive they have found a civilization that pre-dates Sumer and the Tigres Euphrates Rivers bunch and expect evidence relating to yoga and Hinduism to arise from these massive finds. Massive because you are talking about hundreds of villiages that could be excavated. So far I believe they have found 2 cities over 20,000 in population. While the Bible has received intensive attention and there are many Biblical Scholars – a ton of yogic texts have not even been translated let alone analyzed. I have studied Historical Jesus and it is very impressive the way they piece events in the bible together and the evidence with which it is based is very exact. It is not one scholars opinion or another. The evidence is based on rules for evidence and not on the dogma of a particular lineage. It is not fair to say that what scholars do is guesswork as new-something or other says – only someone that does not know archaeology and the rules for evidence methods scholars use that uses such lame arguments. Process of elimination of possibilities plays a large role. If you do a search on Saraswati River and Aryan Invasion say, it is likely you will see that this invasion was a Max Muller created myth/Max did not know about the teutonic shift and Saraswati drying up/changing course. Mike Dubbeld – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marcus
Response:
I wouln’t be so sure about that. Per Anne Cushman article in Yoga Journal Krishnamachara/Iyengar and Jois all were inovators (to be polite) and borrowed from other things like British gymnastics. I don’t know about the gymnastics thing, but I do not understand why you imply that innovation is a bad thing. Why shouldn’t Krishnamacharya have used his vast knowledge of yoga?
What Krishnamacharya and Iyengar did is one thing. Power Yoga is quite another. As I said before I don’t doubt Power Yoga has a benefit, I am only annoyed because this benefit is not yoga. Exercise is exercise and yoga is yoga. Yoga is not about huffing and puffing. My annoyance is from misleading people to believe they are doing yoga and falsely believe they tried it when it inevitably fails. Then go on to tell other people their misconception of what they thought was hatha yoga. A dis-service to yoga and exloitation of the word yoga. The Yoga Journal Article merely points out that hatha yoga is not 5000 years old or anything like that as per historical data. It further identifies Krishnamacharya and gang as modifying what was in that 18′th century literature to include British gymnastics. Krishnamacharya and Iyengar knew what they were doing and I don’t have a problem with them creating new postures at all BECAUSE they knew what they were doing. But the article shows that your triangle pose may likely have come about in the same way – if every generation modifies the postures at the end of 50 generations you no longer have the same thing. Hatha Yoga is not 5000 years old or anything like that as found in any supporting literature. But the ideas that came out of what Iyengar taught were exploited in Power Yoga which does not hold, and likely does little if any resting. Yoga is not exercise and has nothing to do with exercise. I am a big exercise fan but I know the clear and very distinct difference between hatha yoga and exercise. So now we have ‘action shots for the cameras’. We can now associate the billion dollar diet industry and associate yoga as an eaiser than aerobics method of losing weight – or the latest style of losing weight. Learn the secrets of the mysterious East and lose weight at the same time. Pathetic. Misleading. Stupid. Also you might want to read what another poster VSingh says about hatha yoga. Only someone that knows hatha yoga could possibly have said what he did. He does not mention the words but he is refering to spontaneous yoga – the subtitle of Rajarshi Muni’s book. In performing hatha yoga when the nadis are purified a point is reached where your body takes control of the postures and you become a wittness to the event. However it is doubful this can arise out of meditation directly. (Real meditation and not daydreaming with the eyes closed). All body movement alters consciousness. Hatha yoga howerver is a science that maximizes the benefits from such movement. Karate kata had a dramatic effect on me many years ago. The exercise in Tai Chi where you raise your hands palm open slowly over your head till the do not but almost touch is a means for knowing with startling clarity what it means for energy to pass between your hands. Like an artist skillful in recognizing different shades and hues other things that go unobserved by material people are similarly joyfully discovered as well. I always wonder which activity was precisely responsible for what ability. Was it pranayama? AUM? Hatha Yoga? Meditation? For me it is a question of discovering which proceeds from which, not if such things are possible. I think exercise is so important I refer to it as a ‘major power.’ Mike Dubbeld – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marcus
Response:
Don’t be stupid, Dubbeld. I am not in any way implying that the non-sitting asanas predate meditation practice, neither did I say that they were developed in the same time period. Nor am I denying it. Hatha yoga has been around since meditation at least.
BBA the above is what New whatever said/Dharmadeva and you responded you are correct. Hatha yoga is not as old as meditation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stop contradicting yourself. You said: There is no historical record that you or anyone else can produce that can show hatha yoga was around anywhere near the traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita of 3102 – the start of the Kali Yuga on some accounts. Meditation is much older. But now you are saying that Hatha yoga has been around SINCE meditation. This is moronic inconsistency. What you are saying is correct. I do not dependent on Georg Feuerstein, or any other so-called "Indologist" and "yoga scholars". Feuerstein is such an idiot to support SAA Ramaiah and Marshall Govindan’s Mahavatar Babaji myth. He was also very irresponsible to present it as fact in his "The Shambala Encyclopedia of Yoga." Georg Feuerstein appears to be so highly impressionable and somewhat gullible. He never presented any real history but always say, "some say its like this, some say its like that". That style doesn’t make a true historian out of anybody. It is nothing but laziness. I don’t know about your myth. That isn’t my myth, it is SAA Ramaiah, Marshall Govindan and Feuerstein’s myth. I read Feuerstein’s works, I do not just speculate on what he could be writing, I know exactly what they are. If his story about Babaji isn’t a myth then prove it, Dubbeld.
I don’t have to prove anything. It is YOU who are making such a fuss over Feurerstein/accusing him – NOT ME. Sorry I am not reading the rest of your junk. Mike Dubbeld He did not – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cite any evidence save the words of SAA Ramaiah, and SAA Ramaiah is a con artist. Scholars certainly do get a lot of things wrong but unlike others he is not in any particular lineage and has no particular reason to support one lineage over another. So if he is wrong it will not be due to his biased opinion but error That is absolutely stupid. Bias isn’t exclusive to people who belong to a sampradaya. Where did you get that? – for which people in a particular lineage are subject to both types of errors. Meaningless. Thats not to say that Georg does not bias the information. Everyone does that to some extent. Again you contradict yourself. It does mean that he is limited/has a reputation at stake for orienting information beyond a certain point. Of course he is limited, everyone is. That isn’t my point. You are totally off-topic here. It is also true that it is hard to pin dates on Georg but this is because it is hard to pin dates on the subjects themsleves. Not only dates but history, founders of certain schools and systems, disciplic lines in a jumble. What good is his writings then if he cannot be exact about any single thing? Nothing. What kind of a "scholar" is that? A counterfeit. By process of elimination however eliminates a lot of possibilities. Yoga has not been given anywhere near the intense attention of the Bible for example where scholars have shown many things the Church were totally wrong about. For instance the order of the Gospels and the Q source of information. Contradictory ‘facts’ showing a man to have lived for 500 years. Like Vyassa writing the Brahmanas/ Vedas/Mahabhara epic/Bhagavad Gita and more The Bhagavad Gita is a part of the Mahabharata epic, Mike. Even children know this. You aren’t reading enough. – probably more than one Vyasa if that was the case – same with Patanjali. This "probably" is what makes the information he present dubious. It is nothing but laziness. Instead of pointing out what Feuerstein gets wrong to me why don’t you tell him? The hell do I care about Feuerstein. Let him do his thing, he is an "Indologist" anyway. Instead of real archeological and anthropological research, he resorts to popular stories then draw his own conclusion based on what he personally fancy. You mean cause you found he got something wrong you did not like you wrote him off. The "you didn’t like" part doesn’t even come in. Being wrong about many things is enough to put him off. Who cares if I like Feuerstein or not, it isn’t about liking but about what he is giving to the public who buys his stuff. Also Feurerstein authored ‘In Search of the Craddle of Civilization.’ which is about the finding of the drying up of the Saraswati River around 2000 BC and a ton of cities buried where there once was a flourishing civilization. There was no Aryan Invasion – that was a Max Muller invention. Don’t tell me about Feuerstein not knowing about archaeology. He doesn’t know Archaelogy. The "there was no Aryan invention" story was first introduced by Yogananda to the West in the revised (1951) Autobiography of a Yogi. Feuerstein have nothing to do with it. Tell me any single significant and original yogic or Indologic discovery made by Feuerstein. Feuerstein also is saying in that book they expect to find that civilization in India is much older and will likely be proven from excavation. He’s merely picking. This is an old story. Feuerstein is just one of several scholars from which I have to choose from but he is the most widely known so I use him a lot. Feuerstein is the best there is today. Learn to limit your words to what you know. Feuerstein is the best there is today according to what you know. Mike Dubbeld Re-read what I have to say and you will see that the main point was that the asanas were created to enable the body to endure longer periods of meditative practice. There is no historical record that you or anyone else can produce that can show hatha yoga was around anywhere near the traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita of 3102 – the start of the Kali Yuga on some accounts. Meditation is much older. This is shown below in the Yoga Journal Article and by Feuerstein. Faith is one thing. Historical record quite another. I have since re-verified what I say 3 more different ways but since you either do not believe or don’t read my references I will keep them. Mike Dubbeld What you are saying is correct. Asanas weren’t originally meant for the fitness buffs but for those who aspire to sit longer in transcendence. The problem is that this limb has taken a life of its own in our era to the point that perfecting the poses became the object of what the uneducated majority terms as yoga practice. It is because for many years now these acrobats from India have been marketing their contortionist art as "Ashtanga Yoga" to the look-good-feel-good faddists. Hatha yoga has been around since meditation at least. It is good to do hatha yoga – but its real and only purposes is to assist in meditation Hatha Yoga is actually a late invention compared to meditation. The traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita is 3100 BC where Lord Krishna talks about Yoga but this was not refering to hatha yoga. If you notice in the Patanjali Yoga Sutras there is not much said either and not much on pranayama either. While Hatha Yoga has been around since second century AD per Georg Feurerstein (article below) as per Patanjali Yoga Sutras. Personally I believe the is likely wrong – more like 200 BC for hatha yoga which is traditionally believed in India. (Feurerstein Encyclopedic Dictionary of Yoga 257.) Georg Feuerstein (scholar) – A Short History of Yoga – has Paramahmsa
Yogananda/Vivekanada/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sivananda/Ramana Maharishi/Richard Hittleman (a favorite of mine)/ Mahesh Maharishi (TM)/Krishnamachara/Iyengar/more. http://www.yrec.org/shorthistory.html More detail on the history of yoga can be found in a chronology/timeline by Georg Feuerstein at – http://www.yrec.org/yogatimetable.html Rajarshi Muni in Awakening the Life Force – ‘Both Lord Krishna, a divine incarnation of Vishnu, and Lord Shiva are known as the originators of Yoga. In the Bhagavad Gita Chapter IV, Lord Krishna tells
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Response:
I don’t know specifically why Paramhamsa does not talk about hatha yoga much but on my agenda for things the priority of doing things from high to low is – Concentration and meditation pranayama hatha yoga exercise
This misses out on what life has to offer in terms of other practices and oppurtunities. In actual approximate order (and by no means exhaustive) of actual time spent: Living Breathing Thinking Moving Growing Changing and Letting Go Yamas and Niyamas Attention Sleeping Concentration Working Relationships Contemplation Smiling Talking Hatha Yoga Reading and Study Eating Pranayama Meditation Writing posts to alt.yoga Wonder Reverence and Worship Laughing I do not consider hatha yoga as important to concentration and meditation and nor does Patanjali in his 8-fold Yoga Sutras. Hatha yoga is preliminary to assist in the possibility of achieving concentration/meditation.
The living breathing hand of yoga. Pliable, adaptive, at the same time acknowledging the past and ever moving forward. As for the original posters question, "Why so much meditation". Because its easy to appeal to people’s belief in one magical thing, the magic silver bullet to solve all one’s problems. Just meditate and everything will fix itself. Wade
Response:
Don’t be stupid, Dubbeld. I am not in any way implying that the non-sitting asanas predate meditation practice, neither did I say that they were developed in the same time period. Nor am I denying it. Hatha yoga has been around since meditation at least.
Stop contradicting yourself. You said: There is no historical record that you or anyone else can produce that can show hatha yoga was around anywhere near the traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita of 3102 – the start of the Kali Yuga on some accounts. Meditation is much older.
But now you are saying that Hatha yoga has been around SINCE meditation. This is moronic inconsistency. What you are saying is correct. I do not dependent on Georg Feuerstein, or any other so-called "Indologist" and "yoga scholars". Feuerstein is such an idiot to support SAA Ramaiah and Marshall Govindan’s Mahavatar Babaji myth. He was also very irresponsible to present it as fact in his "The Shambala Encyclopedia of Yoga." Georg Feuerstein appears to be so highly impressionable and somewhat gullible. He never presented any real history but always say, "some say its like this, some say its like that". That style doesn’t make a true historian out of anybody. It is nothing but laziness. I don’t know about your myth.
That isn’t my myth, it is SAA Ramaiah, Marshall Govindan and Feuerstein’s myth. I read Feuerstein’s works, I do not just speculate on what he could be writing, I know exactly what they are. If his story about Babaji isn’t a myth then prove it, Dubbeld. He did not cite any evidence save the words of SAA Ramaiah, and SAA Ramaiah is a con artist. Scholars certainly do get a lot of things wrong but unlike others he is not in any particular lineage and has no particular reason to support one lineage over another. So if he is wrong it will not be due to his biased opinion but error
That is absolutely stupid. Bias isn’t exclusive to people who belong to a sampradaya. Where did you get that? – for which people in a particular lineage are subject to both types of errors.
Meaningless. Thats not to say that Georg does not bias the information. Everyone does that to some extent.
Again you contradict yourself. It does mean that he is limited/has a reputation at stake for orienting information beyond a certain point.
Of course he is limited, everyone is. That isn’t my point. You are totally off-topic here. It is also true that it is hard to pin dates on Georg but this is because it is hard to pin dates on the subjects themsleves.
Not only dates but history, founders of certain schools and systems, disciplic lines in a jumble. What good is his writings then if he cannot be exact about any single thing? Nothing. What kind of a "scholar" is that? A counterfeit. By process of elimination however eliminates a lot of possibilities. Yoga has not been given anywhere near the intense attention of the Bible for example where scholars have shown many things the Church were totally wrong about. For instance the order of the Gospels and the Q source of information. Contradictory ‘facts’ showing a man to have lived for 500 years. Like Vyassa writing the Brahmanas/ Vedas/Mahabhara epic/Bhagavad Gita and more
The Bhagavad Gita is a part of the Mahabharata epic, Mike. Even children know this. You aren’t reading enough. – probably more than one Vyasa if that was the case – same with Patanjali.
This "probably" is what makes the information he present dubious. It is nothing but laziness. Instead of pointing out what Feuerstein gets wrong to me why don’t you tell him?
The hell do I care about Feuerstein. Let him do his thing, he is an "Indologist" anyway. Instead of real archeological and anthropological research, he resorts to popular stories then draw his own conclusion based on what he personally fancy. You mean cause you found he got something wrong you did not like you wrote him off.
The "you didn’t like" part doesn’t even come in. Being wrong about many things is enough to put him off. Who cares if I like Feuerstein or not, it isn’t about liking but about what he is giving to the public who buys his stuff. Also Feurerstein authored ‘In Search of the Craddle of Civilization.’ which is about the finding of the drying up of the Saraswati River around 2000 BC and a ton of cities buried where there once was a flourishing civilization. There was no Aryan Invasion – that was a Max Muller invention. Don’t tell me about Feuerstein not knowing about archaeology.
He doesn’t know Archaelogy. The "there was no Aryan invention" story was first introduced by Yogananda to the West in the revised (1951) Autobiography of a Yogi. Feuerstein have nothing to do with it. Tell me any single significant and original yogic or Indologic discovery made by Feuerstein. Feuerstein also is saying in that book they expect to find that civilization in India is much older and will likely be proven from excavation.
He’s merely picking. This is an old story. Feuerstein is just one of several scholars from which I have to choose from but he is the most widely known so I use him a lot. Feuerstein is the best there is today.
Learn to limit your words to what you know. Feuerstein is the best there is today according to what you know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike Dubbeld Re-read what I have to say and you will see that the main point was that the asanas were created to enable the body to endure longer periods of meditative practice. There is no historical record that you or anyone else can produce that can show hatha yoga was around anywhere near the traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita of 3102 – the start of the Kali Yuga on some accounts. Meditation is much older. This is shown below in the Yoga Journal Article and by Feuerstein. Faith is one thing. Historical record quite another. I have since re-verified what I say 3 more different ways but since you either do not believe or don’t read my references I will keep them. Mike Dubbeld What you are saying is correct. Asanas weren’t originally meant for the fitness buffs but for those who aspire to sit longer in transcendence. The problem is that this limb has taken a life of its own in our era to the point that perfecting the poses became the object of what the uneducated majority terms as yoga practice. It is because for many years now these acrobats from India have been marketing their contortionist art as "Ashtanga Yoga" to the look-good-feel-good faddists. Hatha yoga has been around since meditation at least. It is good to do hatha yoga – but its real and only purposes is to assist in meditation Hatha Yoga is actually a late invention compared to meditation. The traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita is 3100 BC where Lord Krishna talks about Yoga but this was not refering to hatha yoga. If you notice in the Patanjali Yoga Sutras there is not much said either and not much on pranayama either. While Hatha Yoga has been around since second century AD per Georg Feurerstein (article below) as per Patanjali Yoga Sutras. Personally I believe the is likely wrong – more like 200 BC for hatha yoga which is traditionally believed in India. (Feurerstein Encyclopedic Dictionary of Yoga 257.) Georg Feuerstein (scholar) – A Short History of Yoga – has Paramahmsa Yogananda/Vivekanada/ Sivananda/Ramana Maharishi/Richard Hittleman (a favorite of mine)/ Mahesh Maharishi (TM)/Krishnamachara/Iyengar/more. http://www.yrec.org/shorthistory.html More detail on the history of yoga can be found in a chronology/timeline by Georg Feuerstein at – http://www.yrec.org/yogatimetable.html Rajarshi Muni in Awakening the Life Force – ‘Both Lord Krishna, a divine incarnation of Vishnu, and Lord Shiva are known as the originators of Yoga. In the Bhagavad Gita Chapter IV, Lord Krishna tells Arjuna that He taught this timeless knowledge of Yoga first to Vivasvat (the Sun God) many, many ages ago. Vivasvat then taught it to his son, Vaivasvat Manu, the first man of the present creation of the universe. Manu gave that knowledge to his son, King Ikshvaku. From Ikshvaku the knowledge of Yoga was passed on to many sages (Rajarshis) in traditional succession. Eventually after a long passage of time, the true knowledge of yoga disappeared through misuse. So onece again, Lord Krishna revealed the true knowledge of that very same ancient Yoga to his beloved friend and devotee, Arjuna, on the battlefield of Kurukshetra in the great Mahabharata War.
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Response:
Dear Friends, I am reading Autobiography of a Yogi by Yogananda. What I did not expect to read is that there is no place for the asanas in this story, everything it talks about is meditation for long hours. Can anybody tell me why ??? Namaste Ibrahim
Ibrahim, When in deep meditation, hatha yoga asanas arise spontaneously, once the kundalini has awakened. All hatha yoga asanas originated from within the bodies of meditators thousands of years ago, and people had the foresight to note them down for posterity. Hatha yoga is for the purpose of preparing the body for the most still and silent meditation. It has nothing to do with power or aerobics. The wonderful thing is that only those asanas that are needed by the meditator to clear existing disturbances are the ones that arsie from within. The glory of the human body. It is all within you. Best wishes, Vikram
Response:
Thanks Stu, I guess people will simply have to find out for themselves what is what. At some point in the future I can see myself asking someone what kind of yoga they did after they quit cause it was just a bizarre sort of exercise. Then telling me Power Yoga and me saying – Oh – that figures. It is interesting to note that organizations offering the mental forms of yoga in the form of meditation instruction are not nearly as popular as those offering physical instruction in Hatha Yoga. It may well be more a reflection on the needs of our culture at this time.
I thought I knew a lot as a hatha yogi. Kundalini Yoga however burst that little bubble. While I am sure Power Yoga alters consciousness – so does exercise. By combining exercise and yoga you get a weak workout and no yoga. But you do get something cause all body movement alters consciousness (Karate Kata/Tai Chi) However what you said is the only postitive thing I can think of on the subject. Mike Dubbeld
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What you are saying is correct. Asanas weren’t originally meant for the fitness buffs but for those who aspire to sit longer in transcendence. The problem is that this limb has taken a life of its own in our era to the point that perfecting the poses became the object of what the uneducated majority terms as yoga practice. It is because for many years now these acrobats from India have been marketing their contortionist art as "Ashtanga Yoga" to the look-good-feel-good faddists. I believe the correct term for this "look-good-feel-good" exercise is bhoga. However, mindfully practiced asanas have transcendental quality. And teachers such as Mr. Iyengar and Sri K. Pattabhi Jois, bring those qualities to hatha yoga practice. It is the sanitizing influence of western culture that waters down their instructions and has caused the proliferation of bhoga in the West. It is all a matter of students of these teachers listening and following instructions. I wouln’t be so sure about that. Per Anne Cushman article in Yoga Journal Krishnamachara/Iyengar and Jois all were inovators (to be polite) and borrowed from other things like British gymnastics. http://www.yogajournal.com/wisdom/466.cfm Normally I would have said so what. But since you said – bhoga in the West. It is all a matter of students of these teachers listening and following instructions. and I don’t like the Power Yoga exploitation debacle—– In turn, says Sjoman, Krishnamacharya drew on the Sritattvanidhi tradition and blended it with a number of other sources, as Sjoman discovered by reading the various books by Krishnamacharya in the Maharaja’s library. Krishnamacharya’s first writings, which cited the Sritattvanidhi as a source, also featured vinyasa (sequences of poses synchronized with the breath) that Krishnamacharya said he had learned from a yoga teacher in Tibet. Over time, these vinyasa were gradually systematized further-Krishnamacharya’s later writings more closely resemble the vinyasa forms taught by Pattabhi Jois. "Therefore it seems logical to assume that the form we find in the series of asanas with Pattabhi Jois was developed during Krishnamacharya’s period of teaching," writes Sjoman. "It was not an inherited format." To dedicated Ashtanga practitioners, this claim borders on the heretical. Along the way, claims Sjoman, Krishnamacharya also seems to have incorporated into the yogic canon specific techniques drawn from British gymnastics. In addition to being a patron of yoga, the Mysore royal family was a great patron of gymnastics. In the early 1900s, they hired a British gymnast to teach the young princes. When Krishnamacharya was brought to the palace to start a yoga school in the 1920s, his schoolroom was the former palace gymnastics hall, complete with wall ropes and other gymnastic aids, which Krishnamacharya used as yoga props. He was also given access to the Western gymnastics manual written by the Mysore Palace gymnasts. This manual-excerpted in Sjoman’s book-gives detailed instructions and illustrations for physical maneuvers that Sjoman argues quickly found their way into Krishnamacharya’s teachings, and passed on to Iyengar and Jois: for example, lolasana, the cross-legged jumpback that helps link together the vinyasa in the Ashtanga series, and Iyengar’s technique of walking the hands backward down a wall into a back arch. Modern hatha yoga draws on British gymnastics? The yoga of Iyengar, Pattabhi Jois, and Krishnamacharya influenced by a potpourri that included Indian wrestlers? These are claims guaranteed to send a frisson of horror up the limber spine of any yoga fundamentalist. [They DO Mike D.] But according to Sjoman, his book is meant not to debunk yoga-but to pay tribute to it as a dynamic, growing, and ever-changing art. Dynamic and ever-changing is not something someone that wants to talk about their triangle pose being 5000 years old to hear/Anne has a sarcastic/ironic underlying tone to this. In the case of Power Yoga — and the media Murphys Law should read – ‘If it can be exploited it will be exploited’. or in Miranda – ‘It can and will be used against you.’ This article shows there are lots of things Krishnamacharya/Iyengar and Jois Someone said Power Yoga has its origin in Iyengar recently. Power Yoga is A JOKE I found this nightmare looking for the origin of Power Yoga. Tired of marathon training and long runs, yet still want the pep and swagger in your life and the desire to stay fit? How about the inner focus that you thought only a three-hour long run would inspire? Want an exercise class where half your time is spent sitting down? Then Power Yoga may be right up your karmic alley. I am a runner and I hate to stretch. Really hate to stretch. Stretching is not fun and there is no PR involved, so I do it only rarely. However, like flossing, it is something you should do every day. Whether you want to or not. Conceding this, I decided to give Power Yoga a try. Before going to class, I spoke with Beryl Bender Birch, the founder of Power Yoga. Bender sent me her Power Yoga book to help get me started, and I learned that Power Yoga is not actually stretching, but is various body movements done in conjunction with specific breathing in continuous movement. The book emphasizes that Power Yoga helps runners a lot by increasing flexibility, agility, strength, and endurance, which in turn reduces stress and tension in the body and mind. That sounded good to me. Plus, I was impressed by its seeming simplicity (at least for beginners). From what I could tell, with this simple program, even Al Gore could become relaxed and flexible. On to class When I arrived at the class, which was taught by Thom Birch (Beryl’s husband), he directed us to remove our running shoes. And we began. I noticed that many of the students in this popular class were already flexible. I, on the other hand, despite my advance preparation, had very tight muscles and general inflexibility. Fortunately, Power Yoga emphasizes patience for improvement. The yoga postures, which consist of bending and reaching, are performed while standing and sitting in one spot. Somewhat surprisingly to me, there were no mantras and no chanting of "ooooooohhhhmmmm." Just good, hard exercise, and frequent reminders to breathe. (Not that there is a chance you’ll feel too relaxed and forget to breathe.) But breathing is extremely important in yoga, as it regulates the body’s rhythm and directs the consciousness inward. Every movement has a breath and you are encouraged to "be with the breath," as the "breath fuels the calmness as you inhale and exhale." Additionally, Thom Birch utters catchy and encouraging motivational phrases: "Big expectations, big disappointments, small expectations, small disappointments," and "If you focus, then you meditate." The continuous yoga movements create heat, which results in a substantial sweat despite remaining stationary. This heat is the primary focus of the Power Yoga experience. The result is like running and stretching at the same time, with no overly funky moves and just balancing with proper and specifically-defined movements. The group itself is very quiet, except for the constant loud and heavy breathing, which at times can sound remarkably like a bad David Lynch movie. In a long run, sometimes the best part is stopping. In yoga, the end is the best part, too. But for a different reason. You begin the class with the day’s tension and issues racing in your mind. Then, gradually, the body becomes more fluid and the mind more relaxed and focused. At the end of class, as you lie on your back and breathe deeply in the dimmed room, it’s the equivalent of a runner’s high. It sounds corny, but it works. And unlike a long run, you don’t need to stretch after a yoga class. http://www.nyrrc.org/divisions/training/undercover4.htm While I am a big fan of
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Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What you are saying is correct. Asanas weren’t originally meant for the fitness buffs but for those who aspire to sit longer in transcendence. The problem is that this limb has taken a life of its own in our era to the point that perfecting the poses became the object of what the uneducated majority terms as yoga practice. It is because for many years now these acrobats from India have been marketing their contortionist art as "Ashtanga Yoga" to the look-good-feel-good faddists. I believe the correct term for this "look-good-feel-good" exercise is bhoga. However, mindfully practiced asanas have transcendental quality. And teachers such as Mr. Iyengar and Sri K. Pattabhi Jois, bring those qualities to hatha yoga practice. It is the sanitizing influence of western culture that waters down their instructions and has caused the proliferation of bhoga in the West. It is all a matter of students of these teachers listening and following instructions. I wouln’t be so sure about that. Per Anne Cushman article in Yoga Journal Krishnamachara/Iyengar and Jois all were inovators (to be polite) and borrowed from other things like British gymnastics. http://www.yogajournal.com/wisdom/466.cfm Normally I would have said so what. But since you said – bhoga in the West. It is all a matter of students of these teachers listening and following instructions. and I don’t like the Power Yoga exploitation debacle—– In turn, says Sjoman, Krishnamacharya drew on the Sritattvanidhi tradition and blended it with a number of other sources, as Sjoman discovered by reading the various books by Krishnamacharya in the Maharaja’s library. Krishnamacharya’s first writings, which cited the Sritattvanidhi as a source, also featured vinyasa (sequences of poses synchronized with the breath) that Krishnamacharya said he had learned from a yoga teacher in Tibet. Over time, these vinyasa were gradually systematized further-Krishnamacharya’s later writings more closely resemble the vinyasa forms taught by Pattabhi Jois. "Therefore it seems logical to assume that the form we find in the series of asanas with Pattabhi Jois was developed during Krishnamacharya’s period of teaching," writes Sjoman. "It was not an inherited format." To dedicated Ashtanga practitioners, this claim borders on the heretical. Along the way, claims Sjoman, Krishnamacharya also seems to have incorporated into the yogic canon specific techniques drawn from British gymnastics. In addition to being a patron of yoga, the Mysore royal family was a great patron of gymnastics. In the early 1900s, they hired a British gymnast to teach the young princes. When Krishnamacharya was brought to the palace to start a yoga school in the 1920s, his schoolroom was the former palace gymnastics hall, complete with wall ropes and other gymnastic aids, which Krishnamacharya used as yoga props. He was also given access to the Western gymnastics manual written by the Mysore Palace gymnasts. This manual-excerpted in Sjoman’s book-gives detailed instructions and illustrations for physical maneuvers that Sjoman argues quickly found their way into Krishnamacharya’s teachings, and passed on to Iyengar and Jois: for example, lolasana, the cross-legged jumpback that helps link together the vinyasa in the Ashtanga series, and Iyengar’s technique of walking the hands backward down a wall into a back arch. Modern hatha yoga draws on British gymnastics? The yoga of Iyengar, Pattabhi Jois, and Krishnamacharya influenced by a potpourri that included Indian wrestlers? These are claims guaranteed to send a frisson of horror up the limber spine of any yoga fundamentalist. [They DO Mike D.] But according to Sjoman, his book is meant not to debunk yoga-but to pay tribute to it as a dynamic, growing, and ever-changing art. Dynamic and ever-changing is not something someone that wants to talk about their triangle pose being 5000 years old to hear/Anne has a sarcastic/ironic underlying tone to this. In the case of Power Yoga — and the media Murphys Law should read – ‘If it can be exploited it will be exploited’. or in Miranda – ‘It can and will be used against you.’ This article shows there are lots of things Krishnamacharya/Iyengar and Jois Someone said Power Yoga has its origin in Iyengar recently. Power Yoga is A JOKE I found this nightmare looking for the origin of Power Yoga. Tired of marathon training and long runs, yet still want the pep and swagger in your life and the desire to stay fit? How about the inner focus that you thought only a three-hour long run would inspire? Want an exercise class where half your time is spent sitting down? Then Power Yoga may be right up your karmic alley. I am a runner and I hate to stretch. Really hate to stretch. Stretching is not fun and there is no PR involved, so I do it only rarely. However, like flossing, it is something you should do every day. Whether you want to or not. Conceding this, I decided to give Power Yoga a try. Before going to class, I spoke with Beryl Bender Birch, the founder of Power Yoga. Bender sent me her Power Yoga book to help get me started, and I learned that Power Yoga is not actually stretching, but is various body movements done in conjunction with specific breathing in continuous movement. The book emphasizes that Power Yoga helps runners a lot by increasing flexibility, agility, strength, and endurance, which in turn reduces stress and tension in the body and mind. That sounded good to me. Plus, I was impressed by its seeming simplicity (at least for beginners). From what I could tell, with this simple program, even Al Gore could become relaxed and flexible. On to class When I arrived at the class, which was taught by Thom Birch (Beryl’s husband), he directed us to remove our running shoes. And we began. I noticed that many of the students in this popular class were already flexible. I, on the other hand, despite my advance preparation, had very tight muscles and general inflexibility. Fortunately, Power Yoga emphasizes patience for improvement. The yoga postures, which consist of bending and reaching, are performed while standing and sitting in one spot. Somewhat surprisingly to me, there were no mantras and no chanting of "ooooooohhhhmmmm." Just good, hard exercise, and frequent reminders to breathe. (Not that there is a chance you’ll feel too relaxed and forget to breathe.) But breathing is extremely important in yoga, as it regulates the body’s rhythm and directs the consciousness inward. Every movement has a breath and you are encouraged to "be with the breath," as the "breath fuels the calmness as you inhale and exhale." Additionally, Thom Birch utters catchy and encouraging motivational phrases: "Big expectations, big disappointments, small expectations, small disappointments," and "If you focus, then you meditate." The continuous yoga movements create heat, which results in a substantial sweat despite remaining stationary. This heat is the primary focus of the Power Yoga experience. The result is like running and stretching at the same time, with no overly funky moves and just balancing with proper and specifically-defined movements. The group itself is very quiet, except for the constant loud and heavy breathing, which at times can sound remarkably like a bad David Lynch movie. In a long run, sometimes the best part is stopping. In yoga, the end is the best part, too. But for a different reason. You begin the class with the day’s tension and issues racing in your mind. Then, gradually, the body becomes more fluid and the mind more relaxed and focused. At the end of class, as you lie on your back and breathe deeply in the dimmed room, it’s the equivalent of a runner’s high. It sounds corny, but it works. And unlike a long run, you don’t need to stretch after a yoga class. http://www.nyrrc.org/divisions/training/undercover4.htm While I am a big fan of exercise, combining yoga with exercise is a total JOKE. The worst part is people will go into it believing it is yoga, quit and tell everyone they did yoga but it was just a form of exercise. The Totally Deluded telling innocent bystanders. Air-head city. Mike Dubbeld
We are in some agreement. And after reading your recent post where you described your practice it is clear to me that we are on the same page in many ways. But it is too easy write off power yoga as bhoga. It does have its benefits. There is always the possibility that a person practice these meta-yogas and decide to delve deeper into the real concern of yoga, self knowledge. At the very worst a student will practice bhoga and perhaps receive some physical benefit. I have found as a form of physical therapy, there is no better than a certified Iyengar teacher to aid almost any chronic pain. Yoga as whole is very much a great experiment that we practice on our own. We come to it and see what we can take away from it. It is interesting to note that organizations offering the mental forms of yoga in the form of meditation instruction are not nearly as popular as those offering physical instruction in Hatha Yoga. It may well be more a reflection on the needs of our culture at this time. — ~Stu
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What you are saying is correct. Asanas weren’t originally meant for the fitness buffs but for those who aspire to sit longer in transcendence. The problem is that this limb has taken a life of its own in our era to the point that perfecting the poses became the object of what the uneducated majority terms as yoga practice. It is because for many years now these acrobats from India have been marketing their contortionist art as "Ashtanga Yoga" to the look-good-feel-good faddists. I believe the correct term for this "look-good-feel-good" exercise is bhoga. However, mindfully practiced asanas have transcendental quality. And teachers such as Mr. Iyengar and Sri K. Pattabhi Jois, bring those qualities to hatha yoga practice. It is the sanitizing influence of western culture that waters down their instructions and has caused the proliferation of bhoga in the West. It is all a matter of students of these teachers listening and following instructions.
I wouln’t be so sure about that. Per Anne Cushman article in Yoga Journal Krishnamachara/Iyengar and Jois all were inovators (to be polite) and borrowed from other things like British gymnastics. http://www.yogajournal.com/wisdom/466.cfm Normally I would have said so what. But since you said – bhoga in the West. It is all a matter of students of these teachers listening and following instructions.
and I don’t like the Power Yoga exploitation debacle—– In turn, says Sjoman, Krishnamacharya drew on the Sritattvanidhi tradition and blended it with a number of other sources, as Sjoman discovered by reading the various books by Krishnamacharya in the Maharaja’s library. Krishnamacharya’s first writings, which cited the Sritattvanidhi as a source, also featured vinyasa (sequences of poses synchronized with the breath) that Krishnamacharya said he had learned from a yoga teacher in Tibet. Over time, these vinyasa were gradually systematized further-Krishnamacharya’s later writings more closely resemble the vinyasa forms taught by Pattabhi Jois. "Therefore it seems logical to assume that the form we find in the series of asanas with Pattabhi Jois was developed during Krishnamacharya’s period of teaching," writes Sjoman. "It was not an inherited format." To dedicated Ashtanga practitioners, this claim borders on the heretical. Along the way, claims Sjoman, Krishnamacharya also seems to have incorporated into the yogic canon specific techniques drawn from British gymnastics. In addition to being a patron of yoga, the Mysore royal family was a great patron of gymnastics. In the early 1900s, they hired a British gymnast to teach the young princes. When Krishnamacharya was brought to the palace to start a yoga school in the 1920s, his schoolroom was the former palace gymnastics hall, complete with wall ropes and other gymnastic aids, which Krishnamacharya used as yoga props. He was also given access to the Western gymnastics manual written by the Mysore Palace gymnasts. This manual-excerpted in Sjoman’s book-gives detailed instructions and illustrations for physical maneuvers that Sjoman argues quickly found their way into Krishnamacharya’s teachings, and passed on to Iyengar and Jois: for example, lolasana, the cross-legged jumpback that helps link together the vinyasa in the Ashtanga series, and Iyengar’s technique of walking the hands backward down a wall into a back arch. Modern hatha yoga draws on British gymnastics? The yoga of Iyengar, Pattabhi Jois, and Krishnamacharya influenced by a potpourri that included Indian wrestlers? These are claims guaranteed to send a frisson of horror up the limber spine of any yoga fundamentalist. [They DO Mike D.] But according to Sjoman, his book is meant not to debunk yoga-but to pay tribute to it as a dynamic, growing, and ever-changing art. Dynamic and ever-changing is not something someone that wants to talk about their triangle pose being 5000 years old to hear/Anne has a sarcastic/ironic underlying tone to this. In the case of Power Yoga — and the media Murphys Law should read – ‘If it can be exploited it will be exploited’. or in Miranda – ‘It can and will be used against you.’ This article shows there are lots of things Krishnamacharya/Iyengar and Jois Someone said Power Yoga has its origin in Iyengar recently. Power Yoga is A JOKE I found this nightmare looking for the origin of Power Yoga. Tired of marathon training and long runs, yet still want the pep and swagger in your life and the desire to stay fit? How about the inner focus that you thought only a three-hour long run would inspire? Want an exercise class where half your time is spent sitting down? Then Power Yoga may be right up your karmic alley. I am a runner and I hate to stretch. Really hate to stretch. Stretching is not fun and there is no PR involved, so I do it only rarely. However, like flossing, it is something you should do every day. Whether you want to or not. Conceding this, I decided to give Power Yoga a try. Before going to class, I spoke with Beryl Bender Birch, the founder of Power Yoga. Bender sent me her Power Yoga book to help get me started, and I learned that Power Yoga is not actually stretching, but is various body movements done in conjunction with specific breathing in continuous movement. The book emphasizes that Power Yoga helps runners a lot by increasing flexibility, agility, strength, and endurance, which in turn reduces stress and tension in the body and mind. That sounded good to me. Plus, I was impressed by its seeming simplicity (at least for beginners). From what I could tell, with this simple program, even Al Gore could become relaxed and flexible. On to class When I arrived at the class, which was taught by Thom Birch (Beryl’s husband), he directed us to remove our running shoes. And we began. I noticed that many of the students in this popular class were already flexible. I, on the other hand, despite my advance preparation, had very tight muscles and general inflexibility. Fortunately, Power Yoga emphasizes patience for improvement. The yoga postures, which consist of bending and reaching, are performed while standing and sitting in one spot. Somewhat surprisingly to me, there were no mantras and no chanting of "ooooooohhhhmmmm." Just good, hard exercise, and frequent reminders to breathe. (Not that there is a chance you’ll feel too relaxed and forget to breathe.) But breathing is extremely important in yoga, as it regulates the body’s rhythm and directs the consciousness inward. Every movement has a breath and you are encouraged to "be with the breath," as the "breath fuels the calmness as you inhale and exhale." Additionally, Thom Birch utters catchy and encouraging motivational phrases: "Big expectations, big disappointments, small expectations, small disappointments," and "If you focus, then you meditate." The continuous yoga movements create heat, which results in a substantial sweat despite remaining stationary. This heat is the primary focus of the Power Yoga experience. The result is like running and stretching at the same time, with no overly funky moves and just balancing with proper and specifically-defined movements. The group itself is very quiet, except for the constant loud and heavy breathing, which at times can sound remarkably like a bad David Lynch movie. In a long run, sometimes the best part is stopping. In yoga, the end is the best part, too. But for a different reason. You begin the class with the day’s tension and issues racing in your mind. Then, gradually, the body becomes more fluid and the mind more relaxed and focused. At the end of class, as you lie on your back and breathe deeply in the dimmed room, it’s the equivalent of a runner’s high. It sounds corny, but it works. And unlike a long run, you don’t need to stretch after a yoga class. http://www.nyrrc.org/divisions/training/undercover4.htm While I am a big fan of exercise, combining yoga with exercise is a total JOKE. The worst part is people will go into it believing it is yoga, quit and tell everyone they did yoga but it was just a form of exercise. The Totally Deluded telling innocent bystanders. Air-head city. Mike Dubbeld – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — ~Stu
Response:
Unlike particular lineages who can pull a number out of the air like 10,000 years and claim lots of other things, Feuerstein and other scholars do not have biased information. And like I said before – you will not show this to be the case and did NOT show this to be the case. So this is hot air whereas myself and Feuerstein DID provide evidence to show hatha yoga is not as old as meditation. Feurstein is basically guesswork.
No, Feurerstein is NOT basically guesswork. While no one is able to say precisely when events happened they CAN show evidence to support when things happened and thats what Feuerstein and other scholars do. By showing the word hatha yoga does not appear in the Bhagavad Gita it is evidence to support there was no hatha yoga then. By showing that Patanjali says nothing about postures other than a seated posture is evidence hatha yoga was not around then. To search Professor Panikarr’s Vedic Experience 1000 page anthology and not find any hits on hatha yoga is evidence that hatha yoga was not around then. To present other scholars who have studied the history of hatha yoga’s efforts provides evidence (Yoga Journal article) hatha yoga has not been around long. Nor does Hymns of a Mystic Fire by Aurobindo on the Rig Veda have hatha yoga in it. You are the 2-liner king of guesswork and dabbler. Reducing Georg Feuerstein to your level of isn’t going to happen. As I said before – you did not and will not find any information to support your guess. Your guess’s are pulled out of the air. You see fit to criticize others with your 2-liners and yet fail to show anything to support what you say. Mike Dubbeld.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Feurstein is basically guesswork. There is no methodology by way of linguistical analysis or anything like that in this writings. Its just dabbling. There is no historical record that you or anyone else can produce that can show hatha yoga was around anywhere near the traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita of 3102 – the start of the Kali Yuga on some accounts. Meditation is much older. This is shown below in the Yoga Journal Article and by Feuerstein. Faith is one thing. Historical record quite another. I have since re-verified what I say 3 more different ways but since you either do not believe or don’t read my references I will keep them. Mike Dubbeld What you are saying is correct. Asanas weren’t originally meant for the fitness buffs but for those who aspire to sit longer in transcendence. The problem is that this limb has taken a life of its own in our era to the point that perfecting the poses became the object of what the uneducated majority terms as yoga practice. It is because for many years now these acrobats from India have been marketing their contortionist art as "Ashtanga Yoga" to the look-good-feel-good faddists. Hatha yoga has been around since meditation at least. It is good to do hatha yoga – but its real and only purposes is to assist in meditation Hatha Yoga is actually a late invention compared to meditation. The traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita is 3100 BC where Lord Krishna talks about Yoga but this was not refering to hatha yoga. If you notice in the Patanjali Yoga Sutras there is not much said either and not much on pranayama either. While Hatha Yoga has been around since second century AD per Georg Feurerstein (article below) as per Patanjali Yoga Sutras. Personally I believe the is likely wrong – more like 200 BC for hatha yoga which is traditionally believed in India. (Feurerstein Encyclopedic Dictionary of Yoga 257.) Georg Feuerstein (scholar) – A Short History of Yoga – has Paramahmsa Yogananda/Vivekanada/ Sivananda/Ramana Maharishi/Richard Hittleman (a favorite of mine)/ Mahesh Maharishi (TM)/Krishnamachara/Iyengar/more. http://www.yrec.org/shorthistory.html More detail on the history of yoga can be found in a chronology/timeline by Georg Feuerstein at – http://www.yrec.org/yogatimetable.html Rajarshi Muni in Awakening the Life Force – ‘Both Lord Krishna, a divine incarnation of Vishnu, and Lord Shiva are known as the originators of Yoga. In the Bhagavad Gita Chapter IV, Lord Krishna tells Arjuna that He taught this timeless knowledge of Yoga first to Vivasvat (the Sun God) many, many ages ago. Vivasvat then taught it to his son, Vaivasvat Manu, the first man of the present creation of the universe. Manu gave that knowledge to his son, King Ikshvaku. From Ikshvaku the knowledge of Yoga was passed on to many sages (Rajarshis) in traditional succession. Eventually after a long passage of time, the true knowledge of yoga disappeared through misuse. So onece again, Lord Krishna revealed the true knowledge of that very same ancient Yoga to his beloved friend and devotee, Arjuna, on the battlefield of Kurukshetra in the great Mahabharata War. Vaivasvat Manu, referred to above, is considered to be the progenitor of the present race of humans. Out of 306,720,000 years, which is the life span of each Manu, 12530,000 years have already passed. We are at present living in the 28′th Kali Yuga, which becagn in 3102 BC. This means that Vaivavat Manu received the knowledge from Yoga from his father Vivasvat nearly 120,530,000 years ago. But Vivasvat received it from the Lord even earlier than that. This indicates the timelessness of Yoga. The Mahabharata War, during which Lord Krishna revived the knowledge of Yoga by teaching it to Arnmuna, was fought toward the end of the Dvapara Yuga, the third age of the present cycle. This means Arjuna received Yoga from Lord Krishna at least 5100 years ago. Lord Krishna cautioned Arjuna to keep this knowledge secret and not to divulge it to any who are unfit to practice it. Thus, Yoga was taught only orally by a Guru to a few deserving disciples. The same secret of Yoga, even today, is transmitted orally from Guru to disciple.’ p19-20. The above book has since been re-published and is now entitled Yoga the Ultimate Spiritual Path by Rajarshi Muni. This book is very good for yogic metaphysics in the nutshell/Muni does not repeat himself however it is a terse discussion. He also covers things like a Day of Brahman 311 Trillion Years being a trifle compared to a a Day in the life of Vishnu for which the 311,000,000,000,000 years is only 24 minutes in the life of Vishnu who lives for 100 years – and that is basically a flash compared to the life of Shiva for which the the 100 years of Vishnu’s life is but 24 seconds in the lifespan of The Dissolver/ Shiva. 1000 lives of 100 years of Shiva = 12 seconds in the life of Ishvara (God) with Brahman being beyond time. (p16/17) In any case hatha yoga is not a requirement for Self Realization or Enlightenment. If such were the case there would be none till it arrived. Hatha Yoga is a big help but anyone who chants OM audibly in long drones will find what hatha yoga achieves eventually with energy movement. A point is reached where even the vehicle of OM can be abandoned when kevala kumbhaka is attained/breathing no longer becomes necessary. But concentration can lead to meditation that can even by-pass OM in samadhi. It depends on whether you intend to raise Kundalini or not to acquire samadhi. Hatha Yogis do raise Kundalini (this is a funny way of speaking. It is more appropriate to say stand back out of the way for Her to ascend.) See Kundalini Yoga by Sivananda pxxxvi ‘The Yogin makes Her introduce him to Her Lord.’ A hatha yogi employs Her as his vehicle.This book is free online from the Sivananda Divine Life Society – http://www.thedivinelifesociety.org/download/kundalini.htm Lest I get a hundred complaints – raising Kundalini can mean something else. In non-spiritual people the Energy as a remnant of the full-blown raising of Kundalini normally dwells in the 3 lower chakras. Ocasionally rising to Anahatha and maybe Vishudda. As you practice yoga however the energy spends more time in the upper chakras – and in that sense – stays there. But this is not the full blown Energy that produces the ecstatic state in hatha yoga. Also this raising is as much a pulling from above affair as anything else from ajna in hatha yoga. When Kundalini residual energy dwells in the higher chakras you change as a person for the better and as near as I can tell there is no going back.
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Response:
Don’t be stupid, Dubbeld. I am not in any way implying that the non-sitting asanas predate meditation practice, neither did I say that they were developed in the same time period. Nor am I denying it. Hatha yoga has been around since meditation at least. What you are saying is correct.
I do not dependent on Georg Feuerstein, or any other so-called "Indologist" and "yoga scholars". Feuerstein is such an idiot to support SAA Ramaiah and Marshall Govindan’s Mahavatar Babaji myth. He was also very irresponsible to present it as fact in his "The Shambala Encyclopedia of Yoga." Georg Feuerstein appears to be so highly impressionable and somewhat gullible. He never presented any real history but always say, "some say its like this, some say its like that". That style doesn’t make a true historian out of anybody. It is nothing but laziness.
I don’t know about your myth. Scholars certainly do get a lot of things wrong but unlike others he is not in any particular lineage and has no particular reason to support one lineage over another. So if he is wrong it will not be due to his biased opinion but error – for which people in a particular lineage are subject to both types of errors. Thats not to say that Georg does not bias the information. Everyone does that to some extent. It does mean that he is limited/has a reputation at stake for orienting information beyond a certain point. It is also true that it is hard to pin dates on Georg but this is because it is hard to pin dates on the subjects themsleves. By process of elimination however eliminates a lot of possibilities. Yoga has not been given anywhere near the intense attention of the Bible for example where scholars have shown many things the Church were totally wrong about. For instance the order of the Gospels and the Q source of information. Contradictory ‘facts’ showing a man to have lived for 500 years. Like Vyassa writing the Brahmanas/ Vedas/Mahabhara epic/Bhagavad Gita and more – probably more than one Vyasa if that was the case – same with Patanjali. It is nothing but laziness.
Instead of pointing out what Feuerstein gets wrong to me why don’t you tell him? Instead of real archeological and anthropological research, he resorts to popular stories then draw his own conclusion based on what he personally fancy.
You mean cause you found he got something wrong you did not like you wrote him off. Also Feurerstein authored ‘In Search of the Craddle of Civilization.’ which is about the finding of the drying up of the Saraswati River around 2000 BC and a ton of cities buried where there once was a flourishing civilization. There was no Aryan Invasion – that was a Max Muller invention. Don’t tell me about Feuerstein not knowing about archaeology. Feuerstein also is saying in that book they expect to find that civilization in India is much older and will likely be proven from excavation. Feuerstein is just one of several scholars from which I have to choose from but he is the most widely known so I use him a lot. Feuerstein is the best there is today. Mike Dubbeld Re-read what I have to say and you will see that the main point was that the asanas were created to enable the body to endure longer periods of meditative practice.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is no historical record that you or anyone else can produce that can show hatha yoga was around anywhere near the traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita of 3102 – the start of the Kali Yuga on some accounts. Meditation is much older. This is shown below in the Yoga Journal Article and by Feuerstein. Faith is one thing. Historical record quite another. I have since re-verified what I say 3 more different ways but since you either do not believe or don’t read my references I will keep them. Mike Dubbeld What you are saying is correct. Asanas weren’t originally meant for the fitness buffs but for those who aspire to sit longer in transcendence. The problem is that this limb has taken a life of its own in our era to the point that perfecting the poses became the object of what the uneducated majority terms as yoga practice. It is because for many years now these acrobats from India have been marketing their contortionist art as "Ashtanga Yoga" to the look-good-feel-good faddists. Hatha yoga has been around since meditation at least. It is good to do hatha yoga – but its real and only purposes is to assist in meditation Hatha Yoga is actually a late invention compared to meditation. The traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita is 3100 BC where Lord Krishna talks about Yoga but this was not refering to hatha yoga. If you notice in the Patanjali Yoga Sutras there is not much said either and not much on pranayama either. While Hatha Yoga has been around since second century AD per Georg Feurerstein (article below) as per Patanjali Yoga Sutras. Personally I believe the is likely wrong – more like 200 BC for hatha yoga which is traditionally believed in India. (Feurerstein Encyclopedic Dictionary of Yoga 257.) Georg Feuerstein (scholar) – A Short History of Yoga – has Paramahmsa Yogananda/Vivekanada/ Sivananda/Ramana Maharishi/Richard Hittleman (a favorite of mine)/ Mahesh Maharishi (TM)/Krishnamachara/Iyengar/more. http://www.yrec.org/shorthistory.html More detail on the history of yoga can be found in a chronology/timeline by Georg Feuerstein at – http://www.yrec.org/yogatimetable.html Rajarshi Muni in Awakening the Life Force – ‘Both Lord Krishna, a divine incarnation of Vishnu, and Lord Shiva are known as the originators of Yoga. In the Bhagavad Gita Chapter IV, Lord Krishna tells Arjuna that He taught this timeless knowledge of Yoga first to Vivasvat (the Sun God) many, many ages ago. Vivasvat then taught it to his son, Vaivasvat Manu, the first man of the present creation of the universe. Manu gave that knowledge to his son, King Ikshvaku. From Ikshvaku the knowledge of Yoga was passed on to many sages (Rajarshis) in traditional succession. Eventually after a long passage of time, the true knowledge of yoga disappeared through misuse. So onece again, Lord Krishna revealed the true knowledge of that very same ancient Yoga to his beloved friend and devotee, Arjuna, on the battlefield of Kurukshetra in the great Mahabharata War. Vaivasvat Manu, referred to above, is considered to be the progenitor of the present race of humans. Out of 306,720,000 years, which is the life span of each Manu, 12530,000 years have already passed. We are at present living in the 28′th Kali Yuga, which becagn in 3102 BC. This means that Vaivavat Manu received the knowledge from Yoga from his father Vivasvat nearly 120,530,000 years ago. But Vivasvat received it from the Lord even earlier than that. This indicates the timelessness of Yoga. The Mahabharata War, during which Lord Krishna revived the knowledge of Yoga by teaching it to Arnmuna, was fought toward the end of the Dvapara Yuga, the third age of the present cycle. This means Arjuna received Yoga from Lord Krishna at least 5100 years ago. Lord Krishna cautioned Arjuna to keep this knowledge secret and not to divulge it to any who are unfit to practice it. Thus, Yoga was taught only orally by a Guru to a few deserving disciples. The same secret of Yoga, even today, is transmitted orally from Guru to disciple.’ p19-20. The above book has since been re-published and is now entitled Yoga the Ultimate Spiritual Path by Rajarshi Muni. This book is very good for yogic metaphysics in the nutshell/Muni does not repeat himself however it is a terse discussion. He also covers things like a Day of Brahman 311 Trillion Years being a trifle compared to a a Day in the life of Vishnu for which the 311,000,000,000,000 years is only 24 minutes in the life of Vishnu who lives for 100 years – and that is basically a flash compared to the life of Shiva for which the the 100 years of Vishnu’s life is but 24 seconds in the lifespan of The Dissolver/ Shiva. 1000 lives of 100 years of Shiva = 12 seconds in the life of Ishvara (God) with Brahman being beyond time. (p16/17) In any case hatha yoga is not a requirement for Self Realization or Enlightenment. If such were the case there would be none till it arrived. Hatha Yoga is a big help but anyone who chants OM audibly in long drones will find what hatha yoga achieves eventually with energy movement. A point is reached where even the vehicle of OM can be abandoned when kevala kumbhaka is attained/breathing no longer becomes necessary.
… read more »
Response:
Don’t be stupid, Dubbeld. I am not in any way implying that the non-sitting asanas predate meditation practice, neither did I say that they were developed in the same time period. Nor am I denying it. I do not dependent on Georg Feuerstein, or any other so-called "Indologist" and "yoga scholars". Feuerstein is such an idiot to support SAA Ramaiah and Marshall Govindan’s Mahavatar Babaji myth. He was also very irresponsible to present it as fact in his "The Shambala Encyclopedia of Yoga." Georg Feuerstein appears to be so highly impressionable and somewhat gullible. He never presented any real history but always say, "some say its like this, some say its like that". That style doesn’t make a true historian out of anybody. It is nothing but laziness. Instead of real archeological and anthropological research, he resorts to popular stories then draw his own conclusion based on what he personally fancy. Re-read what I have to say and you will see that the main point was that the asanas were created to enable the body to endure longer periods of meditative practice. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is no historical record that you or anyone else can produce that can show hatha yoga was around anywhere near the traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita of 3102 – the start of the Kali Yuga on some accounts. Meditation is much older. This is shown below in the Yoga Journal Article and by Feuerstein. Faith is one thing. Historical record quite another. I have since re-verified what I say 3 more different ways but since you either do not believe or don’t read my references I will keep them. Mike Dubbeld What you are saying is correct. Asanas weren’t originally meant for the fitness buffs but for those who aspire to sit longer in transcendence. The problem is that this limb has taken a life of its own in our era to the point that perfecting the poses became the object of what the uneducated majority terms as yoga practice. It is because for many years now these acrobats from India have been marketing their contortionist art as "Ashtanga Yoga" to the look-good-feel-good faddists. Hatha yoga has been around since meditation at least. It is good to do hatha yoga – but its real and only purposes is to assist in meditation Hatha Yoga is actually a late invention compared to meditation. The traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita is 3100 BC where Lord Krishna talks about Yoga but this was not refering to hatha yoga. If you notice in the Patanjali Yoga Sutras there is not much said either and not much on pranayama either. While Hatha Yoga has been around since second century AD per Georg Feurerstein (article below) as per Patanjali Yoga Sutras. Personally I believe the is likely wrong – more like 200 BC for hatha yoga which is traditionally believed in India. (Feurerstein Encyclopedic Dictionary of Yoga 257.) Georg Feuerstein (scholar) – A Short History of Yoga – has Paramahmsa Yogananda/Vivekanada/ Sivananda/Ramana Maharishi/Richard Hittleman (a favorite of mine)/ Mahesh Maharishi (TM)/Krishnamachara/Iyengar/more. http://www.yrec.org/shorthistory.html More detail on the history of yoga can be found in a chronology/timeline by Georg Feuerstein at – http://www.yrec.org/yogatimetable.html Rajarshi Muni in Awakening the Life Force – ‘Both Lord Krishna, a divine incarnation of Vishnu, and Lord Shiva are known as the originators of Yoga. In the Bhagavad Gita Chapter IV, Lord Krishna tells Arjuna that He taught this timeless knowledge of Yoga first to Vivasvat (the Sun God) many, many ages ago. Vivasvat then taught it to his son, Vaivasvat Manu, the first man of the present creation of the universe. Manu gave that knowledge to his son, King Ikshvaku. From Ikshvaku the knowledge of Yoga was passed on to many sages (Rajarshis) in traditional succession. Eventually after a long passage of time, the true knowledge of yoga disappeared through misuse. So onece again, Lord Krishna revealed the true knowledge of that very same ancient Yoga to his beloved friend and devotee, Arjuna, on the battlefield of Kurukshetra in the great Mahabharata War. Vaivasvat Manu, referred to above, is considered to be the progenitor of the present race of humans. Out of 306,720,000 years, which is the life span of each Manu, 12530,000 years have already passed. We are at present living in the 28′th Kali Yuga, which becagn in 3102 BC. This means that Vaivavat Manu received the knowledge from Yoga from his father Vivasvat nearly 120,530,000 years ago. But Vivasvat received it from the Lord even earlier than that. This indicates the timelessness of Yoga. The Mahabharata War, during which Lord Krishna revived the knowledge of Yoga by teaching it to Arnmuna, was fought toward the end of the Dvapara Yuga, the third age of the present cycle. This means Arjuna received Yoga from Lord Krishna at least 5100 years ago. Lord Krishna cautioned Arjuna to keep this knowledge secret and not to divulge it to any who are unfit to practice it. Thus, Yoga was taught only orally by a Guru to a few deserving disciples. The same secret of Yoga, even today, is transmitted orally from Guru to disciple.’ p19-20. The above book has since been re-published and is now entitled Yoga the Ultimate Spiritual Path by Rajarshi Muni. This book is very good for yogic metaphysics in the nutshell/Muni does not repeat himself however it is a terse discussion. He also covers things like a Day of Brahman 311 Trillion Years being a trifle compared to a a Day in the life of Vishnu for which the 311,000,000,000,000 years is only 24 minutes in the life of Vishnu who lives for 100 years – and that is basically a flash compared to the life of Shiva for which the the 100 years of Vishnu’s life is but 24 seconds in the lifespan of The Dissolver/ Shiva. 1000 lives of 100 years of Shiva = 12 seconds in the life of Ishvara (God) with Brahman being beyond time. (p16/17) In any case hatha yoga is not a requirement for Self Realization or Enlightenment. If such were the case there would be none till it arrived. Hatha Yoga is a big help but anyone who chants OM audibly in long drones will find what hatha yoga achieves eventually with energy movement. A point is reached where even the vehicle of OM can be abandoned when kevala kumbhaka is attained/breathing no longer becomes necessary. But concentration can lead to meditation that can even by-pass OM in samadhi. It depends on whether you intend to raise Kundalini or not to acquire samadhi. Hatha Yogis do raise Kundalini (this is a funny way of speaking. It is more appropriate to say stand back out of the way for Her to ascend.) See Kundalini Yoga by Sivananda pxxxvi ‘The Yogin makes Her introduce him to Her Lord.’ A hatha yogi employs Her as his vehicle.This book is free online from the Sivananda Divine Life Society – http://www.thedivinelifesociety.org/download/kundalini.htm Lest I get a hundred complaints – raising Kundalini can mean something else. In non-spiritual people the Energy as a remnant of the full-blown raising of Kundalini normally dwells in the 3 lower chakras. Ocasionally rising to Anahatha and maybe Vishudda. As you practice yoga however the energy spends more time in the upper chakras – and in that sense – stays there. But this is not the full blown Energy that produces the ecstatic state in hatha yoga. Also this raising is as much a pulling from above affair as anything else from ajna in hatha yoga. When Kundalini residual energy dwells in the higher chakras you change as a person for the better and as near as I can tell there is no going back. From Yoga Journal Article – New Light on Yoga From loincloths to leotards, yoga has come a long way in 5,000 years. But is yoga as we know it really that old? By Anne Cushman http://www.yogajournal.com/wisdom/466.cfm Hatha Yoga forces your mind to pay attention to your body. (notice how I did NOT say forces you to pay attention to your body/you are not your mind.) All day long you may daydream things your ego directs the mind to dream about ignoring the body to a large extent. Holding in the extreme position in hatha yoga relieves distress by forcing you to pay attention to that area which in turn directs energy to that area. This interrupts the daydream cycle as does the yogic balancing postures which again force the mind to pay attention to the body. You learn to move energy. Thus hatha yoga is of great assistance to success in concentration necessary for meditation. I don’t know specifically why Paramhamsa does not
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Response:
Feurstein is basically guesswork. There is no methodology by way of linguistical analysis or anything like that in this writings. Its just dabbling.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is no historical record that you or anyone else can produce that can show hatha yoga was around anywhere near the traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita of 3102 – the start of the Kali Yuga on some accounts. Meditation is much older. This is shown below in the Yoga Journal Article and by Feuerstein. Faith is one thing. Historical record quite another. I have since re-verified what I say 3 more different ways but since you either do not believe or don’t read my references I will keep them. Mike Dubbeld What you are saying is correct. Asanas weren’t originally meant for the fitness buffs but for those who aspire to sit longer in transcendence. The problem is that this limb has taken a life of its own in our era to the point that perfecting the poses became the object of what the uneducated majority terms as yoga practice. It is because for many years now these acrobats from India have been marketing their contortionist art as "Ashtanga Yoga" to the look-good-feel-good faddists. Hatha yoga has been around since meditation at least. It is good to do hatha yoga – but its real and only purposes is to assist in meditation Hatha Yoga is actually a late invention compared to meditation. The traditional date of the Bhagavad Gita is 3100 BC where Lord Krishna talks about Yoga but this was not refering to hatha yoga. If you notice in the Patanjali Yoga Sutras there is not much said either and not much on pranayama either. While Hatha Yoga has been around since second century AD per Georg Feurerstein (article below) as per Patanjali Yoga Sutras. Personally I believe the is likely wrong – more like 200 BC for hatha yoga which is traditionally believed in India. (Feurerstein Encyclopedic Dictionary of Yoga 257.) Georg Feuerstein (scholar) – A Short History of Yoga – has Paramahmsa Yogananda/Vivekanada/ Sivananda/Ramana Maharishi/Richard Hittleman (a favorite of mine)/ Mahesh Maharishi (TM)/Krishnamachara/Iyengar/more. http://www.yrec.org/shorthistory.html More detail on the history of yoga can be found in a chronology/timeline by Georg Feuerstein at – http://www.yrec.org/yogatimetable.html Rajarshi Muni in Awakening the Life Force – ‘Both Lord Krishna, a divine incarnation of Vishnu, and Lord Shiva are known as the originators of Yoga. In the Bhagavad Gita Chapter IV, Lord Krishna tells Arjuna that He taught this timeless knowledge of Yoga first to Vivasvat (the Sun God) many, many ages ago. Vivasvat then taught it to his son, Vaivasvat Manu, the first man of the present creation of the universe. Manu gave that knowledge to his son, King Ikshvaku. From Ikshvaku the knowledge of Yoga was passed on to many sages (Rajarshis) in traditional succession. Eventually after a long passage of time, the true knowledge of yoga disappeared through misuse. So onece again, Lord Krishna revealed the true knowledge of that very same ancient Yoga to his beloved friend and devotee, Arjuna, on the battlefield of Kurukshetra in the great Mahabharata War. Vaivasvat Manu, referred to above, is considered to be the progenitor of the present race of humans. Out of 306,720,000 years, which is the life span of each Manu, 12530,000 years have already passed. We are at present living in the 28′th Kali Yuga, which becagn in 3102 BC. This means that Vaivavat Manu received the knowledge from Yoga from his father Vivasvat nearly 120,530,000 years ago. But Vivasvat received it from the Lord even earlier than that. This indicates the timelessness of Yoga. The Mahabharata War, during which Lord Krishna revived the knowledge of Yoga by teaching it to Arnmuna, was fought toward the end of the Dvapara Yuga, the third age of the present cycle. This means Arjuna received Yoga from Lord Krishna at least 5100 years ago. Lord Krishna cautioned Arjuna to keep this knowledge secret and not to divulge it to any who are unfit to practice it. Thus, Yoga was taught only orally by a Guru to a few deserving disciples. The same secret of Yoga, even today, is transmitted orally from Guru to disciple.’ p19-20. The above book has since been re-published and is now entitled Yoga the Ultimate Spiritual Path by Rajarshi Muni. This book is very good for yogic metaphysics in the nutshell/Muni does not repeat himself however it is a terse discussion. He also covers things like a Day of Brahman 311 Trillion Years being a trifle compared to a a Day in the life of Vishnu for which the 311,000,000,000,000 years is only 24 minutes in the life of Vishnu who lives for 100 years – and that is basically a flash compared to the life of Shiva for which the the 100 years of Vishnu’s life is but 24 seconds in the lifespan of The Dissolver/ Shiva. 1000 lives of 100 years of Shiva = 12 seconds in the life of Ishvara (God) with Brahman being beyond time. (p16/17) In any case hatha yoga is not a requirement for Self Realization or Enlightenment. If such were the case there would be none till it arrived. Hatha Yoga is a big help but anyone who chants OM audibly in long drones will find what hatha yoga achieves eventually with energy movement. A point is reached where even the vehicle of OM can be abandoned when kevala kumbhaka is attained/breathing no longer becomes necessary. But concentration can lead to meditation that can even by-pass OM in samadhi. It depends on whether you intend to raise Kundalini or not to acquire samadhi. Hatha Yogis do raise Kundalini (this is a funny way of speaking. It is more appropriate to say stand back out of the way for Her to ascend.) See Kundalini Yoga by Sivananda pxxxvi ‘The Yogin makes Her introduce him to Her Lord.’ A hatha yogi employs Her as his vehicle.This book is free online from the Sivananda Divine Life Society – http://www.thedivinelifesociety.org/download/kundalini.htm Lest I get a hundred complaints – raising Kundalini can mean something else. In non-spiritual people the Energy as a remnant of the full-blown raising of Kundalini normally dwells in the 3 lower chakras. Ocasionally rising to Anahatha and maybe Vishudda. As you practice yoga however the energy spends more time in the upper chakras – and in that sense – stays there. But this is not the full blown Energy that produces the ecstatic state in hatha yoga. Also this raising is as much a pulling from above affair as anything else from ajna in hatha yoga. When Kundalini residual energy dwells in the higher chakras you change as a person for the better and as near as I can tell there is no going back. From Yoga Journal Article – New Light on Yoga From loincloths to leotards, yoga has come a long way in 5,000 years. But is yoga as we know it really that old? By Anne Cushman http://www.yogajournal.com/wisdom/466.cfm Hatha Yoga forces your mind to pay attention to your body. (notice how I did NOT say forces you to pay attention to your body/you are not your mind.) All day long you may daydream things your ego directs the mind to dream about ignoring the body to a large extent. Holding in the extreme position in hatha yoga relieves distress by forcing you to pay attention to that area which in turn directs energy to that area. This interrupts the daydream cycle as does the yogic balancing postures which again force the mind to pay attention to the body. You learn to move energy. Thus hatha yoga is of great assistance to success in concentration necessary for meditation. I don’t know specifically why Paramhamsa does not talk about hatha yoga much but on my agenda for things the priority of doing things from high to low is – Concentration and meditation pranayama hatha yoga exercise I do not consider hatha yoga as important to concentration and meditation and nor does Patanjali in his 8-fold Yoga Sutras. Hatha yoga is preliminary to assist in the possibility of achieving concentration/meditation. I am sure BBA can be more specific about Kriya Yoga if there indeed is any particular reason Paramahamsa does not talk about it. Mike Dubbeld Dear Friends, I am reading Autobiography of a Yogi by Yogananda. What I did not expect
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Response:
What you are saying is correct. Asanas weren’t originally meant for the fitness buffs but for those who aspire to sit longer in transcendence. The problem is that this limb has taken a life of its own in our era to the point that perfecting the poses became the object of what the uneducated majority terms as yoga practice. It is because for many years now these acrobats from India have been marketing their contortionist art as "Ashtanga Yoga" to the look-good-feel-good faddists.
I believe the correct term for this "look-good-feel-good" exercise is bhoga. However, mindfully practiced asanas have transcendental quality. And teachers such as Mr. Iyengar and Sri K. Pattabhi Jois, bring those qualities to hatha yoga practice. It is the sanitizing influence of western culture that waters down their instructions and has caused the proliferation of bhoga in the West. It is all a matter of students of these teachers listening and following instructions. — ~Stu
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Vaivasvat Manu, referred to above, is considered to be the progenitor of the present race of humans. Out of 306,720,000 years, which is the life span of each Manu, 12530,000 years have already passed. We are at present living in the 28′th Kali Yuga, which becagn in 3102 BC. This means that Vaivavat Manu received the knowledge from Yoga from his father Vivasvat nearly 120,530,000 years ago. Humans did not exist 120 million years ago. This is something we know. But Vivasvat received it from the Lord even earlier than that. This indicates the timelessness of Yoga. It indicates that all the Yuga’s are mythical. Surely you agree?
The only reference to time Muni gives is the Puranas (ancient stories) which per Feuerstein – is an encyclopedic work that deals with creation of the world, the worlds re-creation after its destruction, the great world ages, the genealogy of deities and sages, and dynastic history. Includes 18 major works. Most composed in the post Christian era but some from traditions as far back as the Vedic age. ‘The yogic teachings in the Puranas belong to Post-Classical Yoga and are thus broadly nondualist (advaita). They generally make use of the formulations of Patanjali hut tend more toward ritualism. Especially the later Puranas show Tantric influence.’ The Encyclopedic Dictionary of Yoga. Muni says – ‘According to the ancient Indian epic scriptures known as the Puranas, cosmic Time is chiefly measured in terms of aeons called Yugas. [ e.on (Z,fn, Z,on) n.1. an indefinitely long period of time; age. 2. the largest division of geologic time, comprising two or more eras. 3. Astron. one billion years. Also, aeon.] There are 4 types of Yuga, each of a different duration. They are listed below in order of occurence.’ Satya Yuga 1,728,000 years Golden Age Treta Yuga 1,296,000 years Silver Age Dvapara Yuga 864,000 years Copper Age Kali Yuga 432,000 years Iron Age [reminds me of the Greeks. We are currently in the Kali Yuga.] ‘One complete cycle of these 4 Yugas constitutes one Mahayuga, having a duration of 4,320,000 years. One thousand of such Mahayugas equals a single day of Brahman (the Creator), followed by an equally long period known as a "night of Brahman." Each of these 2 latter periods of time are also known as Kalpas.’ p13 OK – finally by Muni – ‘In Indian Puranic literature, one comes across 3 different methods of calculating time. The first, based on the calculations of the aeons, or Yugas. The second is based on the calculations of the Manavantaras, or periods of Manu (the first man of creation like Adam in the Bible). The 3′rd is based on the changes in the position of the stellar constellation of the Great Bear, known in India as the Saptarshi. For simplicity’s sake, we will only examine the measurement of time according to the Yuga system.’ Then he goes on to get his 311 trillion years of the lifespan of Brahman and so forth on p13-18. Then he talks about Vaivasvat Manu – Muni says ‘Lord Krishna tells Arjuna that He taught this timeless knowledge of Yoga first to Vivasvat (the Sun god) many, many ages ago.’ Bhagavad Gita Chapter IV but the Bhagavad Gita refers to no dates. ‘Vivasvat then taught it to his son, Vaivasvat Manu, the first man of the present creation of the universe. Manu gave that knowledge to his son, King Ikshvaku. From Ikshvaku the knowledge of Yoga was passed on to many sages (Rajarshis) in traditional succession.’ p19 [This information came out of Awakening the Life Force by Rajarshi Muni.] Humans did not exist 120 million years ago. This is something we know. It indicates that all the Yuga’s are mythical. Surely you agree?
In my knowledge of modern archaeology man does not go back anywhere near that far. But that is just what we know. There are things in archaeology that simply do not work/Darwinian evolution just does not work at all. Our primative bodies carried around a no-handle axe for 500,000 years. Then like we started eating smart pills we took off like a shot around 50,000 years ago. I don’t put too much faith in either yoga or science on this account. I simply keep both of the scientific ideas and yogic ideas in the back of my mind as I go along. Men with revelations get things wrong. So does science. Manu as Adam is simply one more of a number of ‘Flood stories’ that were prevalent from India to Egypt. The Babalonians had one. The Epic Gilgamesh talks about one. One Professor was annoyed with Noah as being seen as the dumbest of all. Apparently Noah was the only one that not only did not convince God not to flood the world – he did not even try/ask that God not do this. 
Mind of necessity operates in time and space. The soul has no such limitations. I found an interesting statement Muni makes at the beginning of the chapter on this stuff p11 Chapter 2 ‘Yoga in the Context of Time and Space’ — ‘In Indian philosophy it is said that no one is capable of altering Destiny (Daiva) except a Yogi. All ordinary beings must accept Destiny and its inevitable effects. No one else is strong enough to swim against it.’ This shows the deterministic nature from a yogic perspective. The popular science view is things are determined/the Einstein Realist view. Peculiar that yoga agrees with Modern Science on this point but for totally different reasons. Free will is something the mind falsely believes it has because it is unable to know the future. But the soul as omnicient knows past/present and future like an open book. Thus above Muni points out what I have said all along phrased differently. No one is capable of altering destiny meaning minds can not alter destiny but the soul can. Only a yogi who transcends the mind can alter destiny. Destiny is in fact altered by yogis/we are watched over. Time and space are dreams of the mind/the reality known by the mind which is only maya. Some yogic history below from a previous post to Willytex — (It includes archaeological dates on the sub-continent) The dates on hatha yoga are not certain. Traditionally Patanjali is credited with it but he only gives a seated asana. Patanjali the Grammarian is about 150 BCE. I never heard of Shakya Muni. So I searched Georg Feuerstein’s web site – not there either. Patanjali the composer of the Yoga Sutras (based on Patanjali the Grammarian of the same name) is 150-200 AD per Georg Feuerstein – http://www.yrec.org/top The above web page has extensive information about dates as related to yoga. Before I forget the first place asanas show up in writing is in Hatha Yoga Pradipika per the Yoga Journal – ‘Patanjali’s second-century Yoga Sutra mentions no poses at all, other than the seated meditation posture. (The Sanskrit word "asana" literally means "seat.") The fourteenth-century Hatha Yoga Pradipika-the ultimate classical hatha yoga manual-lists only 15 asanas (most of them variations of the cross-legged sitting position), for which it gives very sketchy instructions. The seventeenth-century Gheranda Samhita, another such manual, lists only 32.’ By Anne Cushman – http://www.yogajournal.com/wisdom/466.cfm The minimum date for the Bhagavad Gita is 1200-1500 BC. Yoga is The Rule Krishna gives to Arjuna – 1450 Date of the submerged archaeological site of Dv
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