Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Oh, and I personally take offense at that crack about leaving "courtesy, generosity, and good temperament at the door". Maybe you’ve met a few people like that, but I know many, many Pagans who are not like that at all. It wouldbe nice if all of us (I’m not just talking to you, here) could stop throwing insults and actually talk about this. Well, maybe not all Pagans… perhaps it’s on being initiated to a Wiccan coven… or when they start feeling too comfortable with their position in the community. I find it very difficult to talk to most Wiccan High Priestesses and Priests, because they seem to block out incoming ideas: it’s like they won’t listen to you unless you’ve also had the same initiations they’ve had. Compare that with Israel Regardie (a Thelemite, not a Satanist), who when asked what his grade was, always replied ’student’. Someone who has that attitude is going to end up very knowledgeable and wise.

I’d just like to add my experiance here.  When I first started on my path, I met a Wiccan High Priest who was a member of one of three Wiccan churches in the state at the time (or so he claimed).  He started a study group and frankly, he scared me off for quite some time.   He was incredibly close-minded. He keep saying "Witches are…", "The Goddess is…" as if that was the sole interpretation.  It was a very bad introduction. I left very dissappointed…. I had gone searching for what I found lacking in the christian chruches and here was the exact same thing but under a different name.  It took me two years to recover from that and resume my path. I don’t know much about Satanism; I guess I had always made the mistake of assuming that they were simply cruel people. So to any Satanists out there… I’m sorry. may you find what you seek windsong – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Ashley Branchfeather

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On Wed, 29 May 1996, at 19:12:05, Xina cajoled electrons into this I disagree Scott …. The fact that the Xian terminology for a negative force is "Satan", then we, as crafters, ‘crafters"? thats a new term for my notes…hadnt heard that one before.

Hmmm – nor I.  Like "crofters" maybe, in the western isles of Scotland. can recognize the intent behind the name.  Is Satan a specific being?  No, but the evil within each of us can be called any name … Loki, Imp,  etc etc. Woah woah woah!  Hold on! How do these specific deities get to be the personification of "evil"?  In the view of the Universe, there is no such thing as good vs. evil, not in Nature..Do you curse the storm?  

snip If you are perched on a hill wearing "summer gear" and are hours away from shelter, perhaps.  If you are trying to feed a family in a drought stricken land and the rains are late, perhaps not. There is nothing intrinsically "good" or "evil" in Nature.  How we ascribe these attributes is entirely dependent on how an event or act impacts on our own requirements specifically and our own moral set generally. Those who praise "Satan" are in fact calling on the dark side of the craft, and encouraging that which is evil in themselves.   What is "evil" about facing your anger and your lusts? What is evil about looking in the mirror and aknowleging that aspect of your humanity?  

snip Nothing!  Au contraire, to fail in or flee from such acknowledgement is to deny part of ourselves.  How big a part that is will vary between individuals but it is a part of everyone.  We cannot be whole if we deny any part, however small.  You might not like what you see "in the shadows" but if you "know" what you are you can step into tomorrow from a position of knowledge rather than ignorance.  It is all a question of balance. The 3 fold law applies here, you do reap what you sow.  

Similarly, it could be argued, if you fail to cultivate the field, you reap what you don’t sow.  A useful analogue this.  How can you pull the weeds if you don’t know what they look like?  Also, how can you distinguish between weeds which nourish and those which are poisonous unless you have taken the time and made the effort to learn their characteristics. I’m tired of the flames too, but maybe by defining and acknowledging the reality of evil, by whatever name you choose, would be more effective than denying that there is indeed an evil in the world. <IMHO PAniteowl There *is* evil in the world, and we can agree, I would think, that this ultimately is a CHOICE. The idea that one or a few deities embody the evil of the world is really rather silly.  There are some that would say that of Christians, or devotees of Bacchus, or what have you (insert deity of choice here).  HUMANITY is the cause of evil, yet somehow in the process of aknowleging something ‘greater than ourselves’  we get caught up on this idea that there is some embodiment of evil lurking out there to have us for dinner.  The intent is really the key, not the name not the colour of the candle or the robes…its we ourselves.

Well said Xina!  I should like to further your line by adding that it is often the case that evil is perpetrated by those who don’t recognise it in themselves.  For instance, religious persecution, racial and sectarian intolerance is often justified and elevated to the status of a "holy" quest for "purity". How many times have we heard that a cause is right because "we have god on our side?"  Did Judas Iscariot (sp) have god on his side? Humans have an unfortunate tendency to wrap up all their unpleasant characteristics and avoid personal responsibilty by assigning them to "the devil" or "lucifer" or "satan" or whatever.  Humanity has created divinity just as surely as divinity has created humanity. "It was the devil that made me do it your honour", doesn’t stand up in court. Love to you all — Marc Line

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  All this "satan" crap is getting really old.  The flame wars have been  going on for years now.  It is far too long to be going on and on about  something that DOES NOT EVEN EXIST.

I agree that these newsgroups aren’t the place for discussions of satanism. However, I must point out that "Satan" has just as much claim to existence as any gods/goddesses that you may believe in.  It’s impossible to prove to skeptics that any given such entity exists (or doesn’t exist), therefore all must be regarded as equally legitimate, and it’s just your own POV and preference which one(s) you choose to regard as real.                                                         Doug

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I disagree Scott …. The fact that the Xian terminology for a negative force is "Satan", then we, as crafters, can recognize the intent behind the name.  Is Satan a specific being?  No, but the evil within each of us can be called any name … Loki, Imp,  etc etc. Those who praise "Satan" are in fact calling on the dark side of the craft, and encouraging that which is evil in themselves.  The 3 fold law applies here, you do reap what you sow.  I’m tired of the flames too, but maybe by defining and acknowledging the reality of evil, by whatever name you choose, would be more effective than denying that there is indeed an evil in the world. <IMHO PAniteowl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All this "satan" crap is getting really old.  The flame wars have been going on for years now.  It is far too long to be going on and on about something that DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. — Scott Baker Harry Browne for President http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ Harry Browne for President http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ Harry Browne for President http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/

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All this "satan" crap is getting really old.  The flame wars have been going on for years now.  It is far too long to be going on and on about something that DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. — Scott Baker Harry Browne for President http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ Harry Browne for President http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ Harry Browne for President http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/

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True, Satanists see value in selfishness.  In fact, I don’t know of any Satanists who do not believe the entire race is motivated by selfishness.  Even self-sacrifice and charity are forms of ego-centrism and self-centeredness.  The difference between ourselves and those who claim they are not selfish is that our motivations are clearly stated and honest.

Congratulations on a well-reasoned and eminently reasonable post.  As a long-time defender of the much maligned word ("selfish" = enlightened, intelligent self-interest, much the same way "bitch" = woman with opinions ), I must say I hope this view is not limited to Satanists (or any other particular sect) – sounds like a good way for most of us to view the realities of being human. In other words, I agree:  being "selfish" does not preclude being compassionate, helpful, kind, or having a set of moral values that would be recognizable to the masses. Just two other quick thoughts: 1.  Based on your post, I would have to say the opposite of Satanism *isn’t* Christianity , it’s Communism!  (Boy, that’d be a hard sell in the provinces, huh?) and, 2.  Those of us who call ourselves ‘witches’ and willingly take on the negative connotations associated with that word, whether as a path toward empowerment, or as a wake-up call to a misled society, don’t have a lot of ground to stand on when we accuse "satanists" of naming themselves in deference only to a rebellious anti-Christian ideology. "can’t we all just get along?" B*B Azzrielle

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Wow Xina…talk about my way or the highway!!! At least there are others out there willing to admit that any opinion has the right to be voiced (whether it is founded or not).  Evil is in the eye of the beholder.  It is true that there is nothing evil in Nature…but humans have separated themselves from Nature (most of them voluntarily).  Those who choose to do "evil" in the name of any god/goddess are working against Nature.  Like it or not, there is some behavior that is considered to be socially unacceptable, regardless of whether they deem it so or not. Satan as an individual hopping around in red tights wielding a pitch fork and sporting horns is a rediculous concept…but the embodiment of all that is negative and concidered "evil" in the eyes of society is a realistic concept (by 1996 standards).  The last time I checked that was the year that we were ALL living in. Blessed Be! Autumn (MM&MP&MMA) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Woah woah woah!  Hold on! How do these specific deities get to be the

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  Perhaps the previous poster was being a bit extreme, but they’re right (and you seem to agree) that Satanism is an essentially selfish pursuit. Based on what I have gleaned from my acquaintances, I’d have to say that a major part of Satanism has to do with using magick or their religion to advance themselves ahead of others. It also lacks any particular consideration of other people.

Yep, I think this is a fairly accurate statement, however you seem to think it is either a bad thing or something unique to satanists. Neither is the case, most religious traditions do this, satanists just are more honest and upfront about it. lets take a really simple classical example, a circle of wiccans does a ceremony to encourage the fertility of a field. This is a selfish act, using magick to advance themseves by having more productive fields ahead of others who do not have access to a way of increasing thier fields yield or for those who use it afterwards when the soil has been depleted more than might otherwise be the case and stunting production. All works of magic are selfish acts, mother nature can take care of herself quite well enough without our input. When we DO make such input we are doing so becasue it is something that WE want. That is to say, it is based in selfishness. It is this that truly differentiates it from Paganism, for Neo-Pagan religions all stress the necessity of balance,

No, they do not all stress balance, most of them mention it but it is a long way from uniform. that one cannot get something from the universe without the universe taking something back.   It seems to me, sometimes, that many Satanists believe that too, but also believe that you can make someone else pay that price.  To we Pagans, the only person who can pay that price is you. That’s what differentiates us from them,

You are assuming that pagans and satanists do not overlap, which is not the case. If you can get someone else to pay the coin of your desire, is that not in turn a magical act with it’s own costs which must be payed or defrayed until the recursive loop collapses. Or to look at it annother way we are never the same person from moment to moment, the self that pays the price of the act is not the always self who desired the act. Many Pagans don’t have a clue about the dark side.   As for the "dark side", I personally think that you and many others are very mistaken about that. As I see it (along with many others) there is no dark side, only the universe, and the universe isn’t good or evil

Dark isn’t about evil, in fact a belief in good or evil is fairly uncommon amoung satanists. Dark is about the hidden, the unknown, the things you don’t want to know about. It is about the sides of ourselves we don’t recognize, that we don’t want to deal with, that we pretend isn’t but that we know is. In jungian terms  it is the shadow. There IS a darkside, it is in all of us and in everything. The definitions we slap onto it ultimately exist in our minds. But, we do have to make those decisions. We have to decide what we deem acceptable and unacceptable behavior and stick by that, else we’re just drifting through the universe…(though there are also those who prefer that too).

Looking at and embracing our darkside does not predicate immoral behaivior. I am lazy, a darkside "vice" (it is one of the christers 7 deadly sins), I accept that and embrace it. I celebrate my laziness, it is a part of me that I often dislike but without it I would not be me. I even use it to purposes which suit me, I vigilant about regular maintenance of my car because I am too lazy to work the extra hours to pay for the new car i would have to get sooner if I did not do regular maintenance of it. Acceptable behaivior is a reletavistic decision. There is no such thing as behaivior which is always acceptable in any situation nor is there behaivior which is always unacceptable.   Oh, and I personally take offense at that crack about leaving "courtesy, generosity, and good temperament at the door". Maybe you’ve met a few people like that, but I know many, many Pagans who are not like that at all. It would be nice if all of us (I’m not just talking to you, here) could stop throwing insults and actually talk about this.

It is not an insult it is an observation, if you find it insulting then examine pagan’s darkside more carefully. The original poster did not claim all pagans were like that, not even that most were, just that MANY were.Look through alt.pagan and you will see that MANY MANY pagans do behave exactly as described.                                                Mandrake …..the Bard

-Michael

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do your Pagan friends and acquaintances actually know any Satanists?   Well, I don’t know about the person you’re replying to, but I know several Satanists, including one I considered a pretty good friend, so perhaps you’ll be willing to take what I say seriously. Satanists are immature and morally & spiritually stunted.  They are selfish, self-centered, power hungry and paranoid.  They think that magick will give them power over others and get them whatever they want.  They think magick will help them "get the other guy before, they get me". I think this pretty much distances them from the Pagan movement. Are you kidding? Sounds like they fit right in! Satanists are, perhaps, just a little more honest…   Perhaps the previous poster was being a bit extreme, but they’re right (and you seem to agree) that Satanism is an essentially selfish pursuit. Based on what I have gleaned from my acquaintances, I’d have to say that a major part of Satanism has to do with using magick or their religion to advance themselves ahead of others. It also lacks any particular consideration of other people.

I think that’s correct. The point is that if you take selfishness as far as you can, you will eventually reach enlightenment (or something). After perhaps going through a stage of being uncaring and obnoxious, you may discover that in your heart you really do care about certain people. After that, you will start being nice to them not because you think you ought to, or because you believe in some law of karma (as many Pagans do), but because it gives you pleasure to do so. This is selfish, and it’s also true kindness. People who cross the path of pure selfishness like this no longer deceive themselves about how other people may see their actions. It is this that truly differentiates it from Paganism, for Neo-Pagan religions all stress the necessity of balance, that one cannot get something from the universe without the universe taking something back.

This is a very vague statement and a bad generalisation. In any case, I don’t think the universe really behaves the way you seem to be suggesting.   It seems to me, sometimes, that many Satanists believe that too, but also believe that you can make someone else pay that price. To we Pagans, the only person who can pay that price is you. That’s what differentiates us from them, and also from the christians, who believe that the price has already been paid by someone else.

I think you need to think this out. Many Satanists believe that you can curse someone without worrying about any ‘return’ or ‘karma’, or bless them without the universe somehow returning the favour. Where does the ‘price’ metaphor fit in? I really don’t like this agricultural ‘reap what you sow’ idea. It has its uses but it’s not a universal law. I prefer the foraging view: the universe is abundant, and the world gives much more than it takes. Likewise, I prefer kindness in myself and others when it feels good, not when it comes from ‘karma’ or ‘law of return’ or even fear of hell-fire, for that matter. On the other hand, people generally reciprocate. If I’m nice to someone, they may be more inclined to be nice to me. If I’m nasty to someone, they might be nasty to me if they can: if they can’t, their friends may care but the universe in general isn’t going to punish me with some ‘law of return’. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Many Pagans don’t have a clue about the dark side. That’s why so many of us behave so badly. It’s like people leave their courtesy, generosity and good temperament at the door when they become Pagans – and completely unconsciously. Wiccans in particular – many think themselves so much better than Satanists because they believe in their Rede: but apparently it’s something to be worked around or conveniently ignored in everyday life: after all, it’s impossible to do almost anything without harming someone somewhere. And they even write it in fake Olde Englishe, and then forget what the word ‘an’ means. I mean, if you’re going to abandon values like that, at least know you’re doing it.  Then you won’t be offended when people take exception to your obnoxiousness.   I understand where you’re coming from, and I too believe that people should be honest about what they do. But, I think you’re mistaking the actions of most Pagans. If someone were to do the things you say they do, I’d be angry at them too.

I may well be doing this. Maybe it’s just something that happens when Pagans find themselves in a position of authority. Here in the Pacific Northwest we had one particular pagan teacher who used to offer initiations that involved sexual intercourse… but the sex part wasn’t revealed until well after course fees and air fares were paid. This is of course a more extreme example: more often it’s just pettiness and high-handedness. It’s not at all uncommon for Pagans of one brand to refuse to associate with those of another because they practice their religion slightly differently: and it seems the smaller the difference, the more intense the rivalry and backbiting.   As for the "dark side", I personally think that you and many others are very mistaken about that. As I see it (along with many others) there is no dark side, only the universe, and the universe isn’t good or evil. The definitions we slap onto it ultimately exist in our minds. But, we do have to make those decisions. We have to decide what we deem acceptable and unacceptable behavior and stick by that, else we’re just drifting through the universe…(though there are also those who prefer that too).

The dark side is our unconscious, particularly those things we prefer not to think about. We don’t need to stick to standards, either: following our own consciences is a much better idea.   Oh, and I personally take offense at that crack about leaving "courtesy, generosity, and good temperament at the door". Maybe you’ve met a few people like that, but I know many, many Pagans who are not like that at all. It would be nice if all of us (I’m not just talking to you, here) could stop throwing insults and actually talk about this.

Well, maybe not all Pagans… perhaps it’s on being initiated to a Wiccan coven… or when they start feeling too comfortable with their position in the community. I find it very difficult to talk to most Wiccan High Priestesses and Priests, because they seem to block out incoming ideas: it’s like they won’t listen to you unless you’ve also had the same initiations they’ve had. Compare that with Israel Regardie (a Thelemite, not a Satanist), who when asked what his grade was, always replied ’student’. Someone who has that attitude is going to end up very knowledgeable and wise.   There is one thing I find interesting here. You seem to be speaking glowingly about Satanism yet your words suggest that you consider yourself Pagan. If you do think so badly of Pagans and so well of Satanism, why do you not follow that philosophy yourself ? I feel no need to insult them, but I personally do not accept their philosophy, which is why I am not one of them. I accept the philosophy of Paganism, which is why I am Pagan. How is it with you ?

I’m just trying to improve Paganism by telling other Pagans what some of them are missing. Satanism understands morality much better than a lot of Paganism, and I think a lot of Pagans could learn from it. I’m not particularly interested in Satanism generally: I’m interested in experiencing the world as sacred. — Ashley Branchfeather

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Hmm, as far as I understand Satanist do not believe in either the Christian God or the Jewish/Christian character of Satan.  I believe their view of Satan is as a metaphor for an aspect of nature that is neither evil nor good but is a part of our normal animalness.  It sounds as if they are just brutally honest.  The term Satan i don’t believe is Christian, but instead Latin for the god of Light, hence Lucifer – the Roman(?) god of Sun, Light, and Knowledge.   i don’t believe you or i have any right to say that they are evil because they worship "Satan," because we (at least I) have really no complete idea of what and who they are.  I also think that the fact that we associate Satanism with evil shows just how much Christian dogma has become ingrained in our society and which is still affecting the world views among some members of the Pagan/Wicca/Brand X society. I would hope that we as Pagans, Witches, and the like would be more open minded and less critical of other belief systems and world views, for they are all valid.   in a poetic, non-logical way, i feel that belief is not important, but rather "the belief in belief" that is important. anyway, for more info on Satanism check out :    http://webpages.marshall.edu/~allen12/index.html check the faq before you attack! cheers, mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I disagree Scott …. The fact that the Xian terminology for a negative force is "Satan", then we, as crafters, can recognize the intent behind the name.  Is Satan a specific being?  No, but the evil within each of us can be called any name … Loki, Imp,  etc etc. Those who praise "Satan" are in fact calling on the dark side of the craft, and encouraging that which is evil in themselves.  The 3 fold law applies here, you do reap what you sow.  I’m tired of the flames too, but maybe by defining and acknowledging the reality of evil, by whatever name you choose, would be more effective than denying that there is indeed an evil in the world. <IMHO PAniteowl All this "satan" crap is getting really old.  The flame wars have been going on for years now.  It is far too long to be going on and on about something that DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. — Scott Baker Harry Browne for President http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ Harry Browne for President http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ Harry Browne for President http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/

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Woah woah woah!  Hold on! How do these specific deities get to be the personification of "evil"?  In the view of the Universe, there is no such thing as good vs. evil, not in Nature..Do you curse the storm?  I dont think you have the right to pass off judgement on deities just because you dont like some of their characteristics that might rub you the wrong way.  Satan was given his nasty little attributes by the hysteria of the Christians and their (un) holy inquisition.  Have you gotten beyond these definitions or not?  It doesnt appear to me like you have at all.

It’s interesting.  My jr husband and  I were just explaining this difference to my sr. husband (who is not pagan and really is pretty ignorant on these issues— by his own admission.  his idea of ‘mythology’ was limited to TRS until he met me… .yuck!) last night. I was trying to explain the use of the term Satanist as used by the Church of Satan was adopted as a term of rebellion and that they did not believe in the Chrisitan ‘devil’.   Then I tried to explain that there are some traditions who follow Set (and other manifestations of the Dark God and Goddess) and his immediate response was "the evil egyptian god Set?"… which resulted in a short lecture on how the ancients did not attribute the characteristics of ‘evil’ and such to their Dark God/dess(es)… that this was a Christian concept and… well, what she said (above). It’s difficult sometimes to explain how characteristics which are natural or simply hidden or things which we fear.  ’dark’ dieties are generally considered to have as their ‘realms’ such things as death, the underworld, the afterlife, magick, crossroads, … people who are not informed about them often do not realize that they also often have ‘dominion’  over such things as transformation, rebirth, change and healing. Some Satanists view Satan as an external ‘deity’ and others do not. Does that mean anyone is right and the other wrong?  No, its just their own personal filter of the world and thier own personal point of view.   Nothing more.

Another point that is often overlooked.  There is more than one type of ‘Satanist’ just as there is more than one kind of Pagan.  It is always a matter of ‘personal filter’s. What is "evil" about facing your anger and your lusts?

Absolutely _NOTHING_ !  Anger can be justified.  (What did Sybil Sheppherd say in her speech about ‘rightous anger’?) And Lust is Good.  Being consumed by your lust, out of your control can be bad for you… but how can you understand and moderate your ‘lusts’ unless you face them? In fact, how can you _ever_ grow unless you make that Descent into the Underword which causes transformation?  How can you ever overcome your ‘monsters’ unless you face them? It is one of the sicknesses of our society that we repress and hide that which society defines as ‘evil’.  It is this mentality which makes victims of so many and irrepairably damages so many  who have been abused by placing the ‘guilt’ of the crime on the abuser. What is evil about looking in the mirror and aknowleging that aspect of your humanity?   Honestly, I find that many (not all) Satanists are much more honest about their feelings than many (not all)  Pagans/Wiccans etc. They certainly are less hypocritical about the process of life!

I appreciate your qualifying your statement.  Not all Pagans consider natural processes evil. HUMANITY is the cause of evil, yet somehow in the process of aknowleging something ‘greater than ourselves’  we get caught up on this idea that there is some embodiment of evil lurking out there to have us for dinner.  The intent is really the key, not the name not the colour of the candle or the robes…its we ourselves.

Amen.  I agree wholeheartedly. Very enlightening (no pun intended) post. never thirst, cat Catherine Deville, Nest Coordinator, (Proto)-Nest of the Phoenix (Atlanta GA) For more information on CAW, Atlanta area nests or the For faster response begin your subject line CAW INFO: Disclaimer!! Unless otherwise SPECIFICALLY stated, the opinions expressed are _always_ my own and not the "Official" opinion of CAW. Be aware that Members of CAW rarely, if ever, speak on behalf of the Church.  Even specifically held positions (where they do exist) of the Church are often not held by all members. We’re Eclectic and Proud of It!

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   Perhaps the previous poster was being a bit extreme, but they’re right (and you seem to agree) that Satanism is an essentially selfish pursuit. Based on what I have gleaned from my acquaintances, I’d have to say that a major part of Satanism has to do with using magick or their religion to advance themselves ahead of others. It also lacks any particular consideration of other people. It is this that truly differentiates it from Paganism, for Neo-Pagan religions all stress the necessity of balance, that one cannot get something from the universe without the universe taking something back.

Bang! Bang! Bang! (Sound of my head hitting the monitor.) "Neo-Pgan religions _all_ stress the necessity of balance."                     ^^^^^ Frighteningly sweeping statement. "Satanism is essentially (a) selfish pursuit."                              ^^^^^^^ If you define ’selfish’ as spending all of your time developing your Self, then Hinduism is "essentially a selfish pursuit." After all, how can you project your true will into the universe and overcome the shackels of your Karma (and stop being a jerk or an asshole) if you do not spend a lot of time being introspective and finding your True Self? Shucks what do you think all of those Yoga Asanas are for? To get to know your body. (Not somebody elses–presuming of course you are spending time on your body and not looking at her clevage…:-) What do you think the breathing exercises are for? To get to know your breath. What do you think the meditations are for? To get to know your mind. What do you think all of the chanting is for? To resinate with your soul. While practicing devotion, the Hindu Yogi is being very selfish. Satanism is the same thing–they also try to strip away the outer layers of crud encapsulated on our minds by this society with a blowtorch. But Crowley’s (I know–not a Satanist, just a Beast) practices were essentially the same as the Yogi’s–get to know your *true* *Self* and all else will fall into place. Besides, did it ever dawn on anyone around here that your *true* *Will* may involve being nice to children? Cleaning up the trash from your environment? Or walking old ladies across the street? Or do you assume as soon as someone inverts the pentegram, their true will drains to their dick?    It seems to me, sometimes, that many Satanists believe that too, but also believe that you can make someone else pay that price. To we Pagans, the only person who can pay that price is you. That’s what differentiates us from them, and also from the christians, who believe that the price has already been paid by someone else.

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGG! Bang! Bang! Bang! (I’m getting a headache.) Most Christians I know do not believe that by dying for their sins, Jesus Christ paid the price for everyone, and they don’t have to bother. Jesus Christ mearly outlined the path of personal sacrifice, and sacrifice to God, through the ultimate sacrifice, being nailed to a cross. But it *does* *not* mean they believe they don’t have to pay for their own salvation, far from it: they believe that Jesus Christ outlined a rather costly path to salvation. And then made the cross a little easier to bare through his own personal example. Don’t you have a kind word to say about *anybody*?    There is one thing I find interesting here. You seem to be speaking glowingly about Satanism yet your words suggest that you consider yourself Pagan. If you do think so badly of Pagans and so well of Satanism, why do you not follow that philosophy yourself ? I feel no need to insult them, but I personally do not accept their philosophy, which is why I am not one of them. I accept the philosophy of Paganism, which is why I am Pagan. How is it with you ?

Perhaps because Pagans are not as spiritually advanced as they would like to think of themselves as? And perhaps because Satanism doesn’t own the market in arrogant assholes and jerks? And perhaps it is important to point out that fact, even if it makes the post look unbalanced in the other direction, instead of the disbalance that has already been shown (that Pagans all fight for goodness and light, and Satanists are all a bunch of arrogant children)? And perhaps those of us who respect the Satanic path, but who do not follow it, choose not to do so because it is simply not our path to follow? Do we need to follow every path whose philosophy we respect? I have respect for Christianity, but I am not Christian. I have respect for Zen Buddism, but I am not a Buddist. I have respect for Wicca, but I am not Wiccan. I have respect for Satanism, but I’m not a Satanist. I have respect for Hinduism, though I am not a Yogi. And one thing all of these paths have in common is that they all create jerks. But it doesn’t mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater.                                                 – Bill — In Phase Consulting   |  WWW:    http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody 337 W. California #4  |  Fax:    (818) 502-1467 Glendale, CA 91203    |  ICBM:   N:34.15′ W:118.25′

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I disagree Scott …. The fact that the Xian terminology for a negative force is "Satan", then we, as crafters,

‘crafters"? thats a new term for my notes…hadnt heard that one before.  can recognize the intent behind the name.  Is Satan a specific being?  No, but the evil within each of us can be called any name … Loki, Imp,  etc etc.

Woah woah woah!  Hold on! How do these specific deities get to be the personification of "evil"?  In the view of the Universe, there is no such thing as good vs. evil, not in Nature..Do you curse the storm?  I dont think you have the right to pass off judgement on deities just because you dont like some of their characteristics that might rub you the wrong way.  Satan was given his nasty little attributes by the hysteria of the Christians and their (un) holy inquisition.  Have you gotten beyond these definitions or not?  It doesnt appear to me like you have at all. Some Satanists view Satan as an external ‘deity’ and others do not. Does that mean anyone is right and the other wrong?  No, its just their own personal filter of the world and thier own personal point of view.   Nothing more. Those who praise "Satan" are in fact calling on the dark side of the craft, and encouraging that which is evil in themselves.  

What is "evil" about facing your anger and your lusts? What is evil about looking in the mirror and aknowleging that aspect of your humanity?   Honestly, I find that many (not all) Satanists are much more honest about their feelings than many (not all)  Pagans/Wiccans etc. They certainly are less hypocritical about the process of life! The 3 fold law applies here, you do reap what you sow.  I’m tired of the flames too, but maybe by defining and acknowledging the reality of evil, by whatever name you choose, would be more effective than denying that there is indeed an evil in the world. <IMHO PAniteowl

There *is* evil in the world, and we can agree, I would think, that this ultimately is a CHOICE. The idea that one or a few deities embody the evil of the world is really rather silly.  There are some that would say that of Christians, or devotees of Bacchus, or what have you (insert deity of choice here).  HUMANITY is the cause of evil, yet somehow in the process of aknowleging something ‘greater than ourselves’  we get caught up on this idea that there is some embodiment of evil lurking out there to have us for dinner.  The intent is really the key, not the name not the colour of the candle or the robes…its we ourselves.

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: (Jana R Murphy) says: : : Satanists are immature and morally & spiritually stunted. : They are selfish, self-centered, power hungry and paranoid. : : I think this pretty much distances them from the Pagan movement. : : They then bitch and whine when we find their theology repulsive and claim that : Pagans are all "fluffy bunnies", and try to deny the dark side. : : I see satanists as one-sided, fixated on the dark side. [snip] : I mostly think of them as "Backward Christians".   Then I’m afraid you think of them mostly incorrectly.   You *have* read the alt.satanism FAQ, right?   : After all, their : practices and rituals (and even their upside-down pentagram) all comes : from just doing Christianity backwards.   *All* Satanists do this?  I’m afraid you are again mistaken.   : If there were no Christianity, : there could be no Satanism.  If Christanity had not claimed all Pagan : beliefs to be "of the devil" there would be no satan running around : looking like the Horned-God. Perhaps.  Or perhaps not.  However, the concept of Satan predates Christianity.   : And then, of course, there is that 15th century broadside "The Witches : Hammer" that became the ‘bible’ for the Burning Times.  Nothing but : made-up fantacies by fools who knew nothing about Paganism.  They knew : only Christianity – so could only write about things that were "backwards" : to Christian beliefs. : And yes, they are fixated to the Dark Side.  How their lives can be : anything but karmic misery I can’t figure out. Maybe if you educated yourself about Satanism you would understand better.   (ObDisclaimer:  The alt.satanism FAQ is not the Last Word on Satanism by any means.  However, it is an excellent starter clue.) Blessings, Natalie — *** I don’t speak for HP ***                   *** fight breast cancer *** WARNING!  This is an UNCENSORED copy of Natalie’s signature!  Transmitting this signature could be in violation of the Telecommunications Act of 1996. Free Speech Online Blue Ribbon Campaign: http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html

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(Jana R Murphy) says: Satanists are immature and morally & spiritually stunted. They are selfish, self-centered, power hungry and paranoid. I think this pretty much distances them from the Pagan movement. They then bitch and whine when we find their theology repulsive and claim that Pagans are all "fluffy bunnies", and try to deny the dark side. I see satanists as one-sided, fixated on the dark side. Yep, my 2 cents! Jana

I mostly think of them as "Backward Christians".  After all, their practices and rituals (and even their upside-down pentagram) all comes from just doing Christianity backwards.  If there were no Christianity, there could be no Satanism.  If Christanity had not claimed all Pagan beliefs to be "of the devil" there would be no satan running around looking like the Horned-God. And then, of course, there is that 15th century broadside "The Witches Hammer" that became the ‘bible’ for the Burning Times.  Nothing but made-up fantacies by fools who knew nothing about Paganism.  They knew only Christianity – so could only write about things that were "backwards" to Christian beliefs. And yes, they are fixated to the Dark Side.  How their lives can be anything but karmic misery I can’t figure out. GreyHawke of the High Desert.

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(I missed the original 2 articles, and all other posts from the 24th of this month, so I’ll reply to the response.) Perhaps the previous poster was being a bit extreme, but they’re right (and you seem to agree) that Satanism is an essentially selfish pursuit.

True, Satanists see value in selfishness.  In fact, I don’t know of any Satanists who do not believe the entire race is motivated by selfishness.  Even self-sacrifice and charity are forms of ego-centrism and self-centeredness.  The difference between ourselves and those who claim they are not selfish is that our motivations are clearly stated and honest. I sometimes wonder if evolved Satanists are not sometimes less obnoxiously selfish than their ego-suppressing counterpart.  For example, if someone accuses me of being selfish, I go into the discussion agreeing with them — why yes I am!  The matter to be resolved is not whether I am selfish, but whether that selfishness is appropriate or deprives others unnecessarily.  Contrast that to a person who adamantly announces they are not at all selfish, not at all!  They are inevitably such, but they cannot be made to acknowledge it, and will therefore refuse to modify their behavior. Based on what I have gleaned from my acquaintances, I’d have to say that a major part of Satanism has to do with using magick or their religion to advance themselves ahead of others.

Selfishness just means you want more for yourself.  it is productive — face it, we are all (presumably) gainfully employed in the hopes of securing a better position, more luxury, a better home for our families, that new car, a trip to Zimbabwe, whatever.  We want these things for ourselves.  We are SELFISH, and it makes us strive toward our goals.  It isn’t a bad thing…it is something to accept and appreciate. As for "advancing ourselves ahead of others", I’m not sure what you mean.  If you mean going out and intentionally stepping on others to get up the ladder, I suppose it depends on the Satanist.  That particular method does not play much of a part in my own practice, nor in those of my freinds.  In fact, most of us have a kind of code of honor which precludes such back-biting behavior (believe it or not, Satanists DO have our own kind of ethics, usually based around cause and effect). If you mean that Satanists always obtain their selfish aims through the expense of others, I will say that it is almost unavoidable to do so: take the shirt on your back, for example;  you look for a bargain when shopping for clothes, and you purchase when you find a good price.  The need to keep costs low means the original retailer has to buy from an inexpensive producer.  The producers go where the wages are cheapest, and where the workers will exert the most raw labor for the buck.  As a result of your penny-pinching selfishness, some Vietnamese woman exhiled in Taiwan has to bust her ass in a sweatshop for 12+ every day, in order to earn the same amount of money it costs for you to by a meal at Burger King.  Now, you might not like the fact that this woman is forced out of necessity to work as a slave, but chances are, when you next go to a store to but a shirt, you will go for the bargain, continually reinforcing to the producer the need to keep his costs competitive by using cheap labor. The copper in your computer?  Mined in Senegal in the most hazardous conditions buy a little guy who will spend his life doing back-breaking labor for what amounts to pocket change.  It goes on and on like this, virtually everything you have is at the expense of another. We may both be selfish, but at least by acknowledging myself as such I can appreciate the price that is paid by others in order to provide me with the lifestyle I desire, and I can acknowledge the role I have to play in their condition. It also lacks any particular consideration of other people. It is this that truly differentiates it from Paganism, for Neo-Pagan religions all stress the necessity of balance, that one cannot get something from the universe without the universe taking something back.

For starters, Satanists ARE Pagans.   Next, where do you get the idea that Satanists are out for a free lunch?   It might be nice if it worked that way, but in truth those of us headed toward lofty goals put a lot of work into it, so you might say we ARE putting something into the universe.   In any case, what is wrong with wanting something for yourself at the the smallest personal cost.    It seems to me, sometimes, that many Satanists believe that too, but also believe that you can make someone else pay that price. To we Pagans, the only person who can pay that price is you. That’s what differentiates us from them, and also from the christians, who believe that the price has already been paid by someone else.

Pay the price for what?    As for the "dark side", I personally think that you and many others are very mistaken about that. As I see it (along with many others) there is no dark side, only the universe, and the universe isn’t good or evil.

We do not believe in good or evil either.  The "Dark" is a metaphor for the hidden, the forbidden.  There most certainly ARE hidden and forbidden things in the universe.    There is one thing I find interesting here. You seem to be speaking glowingly about Satanism yet your words suggest that you consider yourself Pagan. If you do think so badly of Pagans and so well of Satanism, why do you not follow that philosophy yourself ? I feel no need to insult them, but I personally do not accept their philosophy, which is why I am not one of them. I accept the philosophy of Paganism, which is why I am Pagan. How is it with you ?

Again, while the original poster is an unspecified neo-Pagan, there is no reason why he cannot be both Satanist and Pagan.  In any case… Does the fact that you do not accept the Satanic philosophy mean that you must never be critical of the excesses that come from your own side of the fence?  Is this a my-country-right-or-wrong type thing we have?  I think the ability to call your own people into question and refuse to follow the herd when it is going the wrong direction to be a noble trait.                                                 Mandrake …..the Bard

Mr. Scratch

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Do your Pagan friends and acquaintances actually know any Satanists?

   Well, I don’t know about the person you’re replying to, but I know several Satanists, including one I considered a pretty good friend, so perhaps you’ll be willing to take what I say seriously. Satanists are immature and morally & spiritually stunted.  They are selfish, self-centered, power hungry and paranoid.  They think that magick will give them power over others and get them whatever they want.  They think magick will help them "get the other guy before, they get me". I think this pretty much distances them from the Pagan movement. Are you kidding? Sounds like they fit right in! Satanists are, perhaps, just a little more honest…

   Perhaps the previous poster was being a bit extreme, but they’re right (and you seem to agree) that Satanism is an essentially selfish pursuit. Based on what I have gleaned from my acquaintances, I’d have to say that a major part of Satanism has to do with using magick or their religion to advance themselves ahead of others. It also lacks any particular consideration of other people. It is this that truly differentiates it from Paganism, for Neo-Pagan religions all stress the necessity of balance, that one cannot get something from the universe without the universe taking something back.    It seems to me, sometimes, that many Satanists believe that too, but also believe that you can make someone else pay that price. To we Pagans, the only person who can pay that price is you. That’s what differentiates us from them, and also from the christians, who believe that the price has already been paid by someone else. Many Pagans don’t have a clue about the dark side. That’s why so many of us behave so badly. It’s like people leave their courtesy, generosity and good temperament at the door when they become Pagans – and completely unconsciously. Wiccans in particular – many think themselves so much better than Satanists because they believe in their Rede: but apparently it’s something to be worked around or conveniently ignored in everyday life: after all, it’s impossible to do almost anything without harming someone somewhere. And they even write it in fake Olde Englishe, and then forget what the word ‘an’ means. I mean, if you’re going to abandon values like that, at least know you’re doing it.  Then you won’t be offended when people take exception to your obnoxiousness.

   I understand where you’re coming from, and I too believe that people should be honest about what they do. But, I think you’re mistaking the actions of most Pagans. If someone were to do the things you say they do, I’d be angry at them too.    As for the "dark side", I personally think that you and many others are very mistaken about that. As I see it (along with many others) there is no dark side, only the universe, and the universe isn’t good or evil. The definitions we slap onto it ultimately exist in our minds. But, we do have to make those decisions. We have to decide what we deem acceptable and unacceptable behavior and stick by that, else we’re just drifting through the universe…(though there are also those who prefer that too).    Oh, and I personally take offense at that crack about leaving "courtesy, generosity, and good temperament at the door". Maybe you’ve met a few people like that, but I know many, many Pagans who are not like that at all. It would be nice if all of us (I’m not just talking to you, here) could stop throwing insults and actually talk about this.    There is one thing I find interesting here. You seem to be speaking glowingly about Satanism yet your words suggest that you consider yourself Pagan. If you do think so badly of Pagans and so well of Satanism, why do you not follow that philosophy yourself ? I feel no need to insult them, but I personally do not accept their philosophy, which is why I am not one of them. I accept the philosophy of Paganism, which is why I am Pagan. How is it with you ?                                                 Mandrake …..the Bard

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Satanists are immature and morally & spiritually stunted.  They are selfish, self-centered, power hungry and paranoid.  They think that magick will give them power over others and get them whatever they want.  They think magick will help them "get the other guy before, they get me". I think this pretty much distances them from the Pagan movement.

You know, on first read I thought you were talking about the neo-Pagan movement. The last few years at Pacific Circle (a local Pagan gathering) I have seen immature individuals waving the neo-Pagan flag. I have seen the morally stunted. I have seen the power hungry. And paranoia? Wear a christian cross at a neo-Pagan gathering, and you’ll know what paranoia is all about! "Satanists think that magic will give them power over others and get them whatever they want?" That pretty much describes the neo-Pagan and Wiccan movements to a tee. After all, most people make the mistake that the transformative power of magic is to cast spells over others, and to get their selfish, immature way in the world without actually doing the work necessary to (1) personally transform, and (2) do the actual real-world work necessary to express themselves in the world. How many times have you carved the runes and symbols into a candle, and said a prayer and lit the candle (a little bit of personal transformative magic) and instead of reminding yourself through this symbology the growth *you* must do to make this real, instead wasted the moment on wishful thinking? Satanists do not corner the market on hokey hoods, dressing all in black, wearing wierd symbols that are designed more to bother your neighbor than show your devotion, or being paranoid about the "Religious Right." They then bitch and whine when we find their theology repulsive and claim that Pagans are all "fluffy bunnies", and try to deny the dark side.  I say f- that claim!  Most Pagans honor both the dark and light side and usually try to achieve a balance.  I see satanists as one-sided, fixated on the dark side.

Like Dianics, concentrating on the feminine side of the divine in order to achieve personal balance, I understand Satanists concentrate on the dark side to achieve personal balance in their lives. Should we say "f-ck you" to the Dianics? And while it is true that most Pagans _attempt_ to honor the dark side, most Pagan practices I have seen utterly fail to honor the destructive power of Set or Kali, just to name two. They seem to treat the dark lords and ladys like "elder parents" who "spank them" when they get things wrong. But those people are easy to spot: they are the ones whose lives most closely resembles an overgrown garden. They’re the ones whose lives are filled with useless baggage and clutter, who are totally unable to get rid of old things, old ideas, old ways, old modes of thinking. They are totally unable to see beyond their own lives, because they are drowning in their own garbage. They are the ones who are unable to reap, or to successfully dance the dance of Shiva and _destroy_ as they create. They’re the ones who in one breath tell Mainstream America that they have a legitimate religion, and who in the next breath tell others that their religion is illegitimate.                                         – Bill — In Phase Consulting   |  WWW:    http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody 337 W. California #4  |  Fax:    (818) 502-1467 Glendale, CA 91203    |  ICBM:   N:34.15′ W:118.25′

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Jana R Murphy wrote (in part): Most Pagans honor both the dark and light side and usually try to achieve a balance.  I see satanists as one-sided, fixated on the dark side.  I find anyone fixated solely on the dark side rather sad.

  It seems to me that most Pagans don’t believe in either a dark or a light side.  The whole is neither dark nor light, nor a combination of the two – it simply _is_.  The things people do can be evil or good, but not nature itself.   In waxing faith,    Magda

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well I’ve been following this thread and I’ll tell you what most of my Pagan friends and acquaintances think about satanists. Satanists are immature and morally & spiritually stunted.  They are selfish, self-centered, power hungry and paranoid.  They think that magick will give them power over others and get them whatever they want.  They think magick will help them "get the other guy before, they get me". I think this pretty much distances them from the Pagan movement. They then bitch and whine when we find their theology repulsive and claim that Pagans are all "fluffy bunnies", and try to deny the dark side.  I say f- that claim!  Most Pagans honor both the dark and light side and usually try to achieve a balance.  I see satanists as one-sided, fixated on the dark side. I find anyone fixated solely on the dark side rather sad. (and it’s gotta be lonely too I’ve also got a question- does anyone think there are alot of women satanists???  or are they mostly male???? (I’m talking healthy women, with self-esteem, maybe some feminists???)  Something tells me you won’t find alot of women in the satanist’s camps. Yep, my 2 cents! Jana

Hey All, Actually I have been wondering what satanism has to with paganism and wicca in the first place. Don’t you have to be christian before you can be a satanist, and I believe pagans are not christian. B*B Nuwisha (just my 2 cents worth)

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Well I’ve been following this thread and I’ll tell you what most of my Pagan friends and acquaintances think about satanists.

Have you met Satanists? And I ain’t talking "Black Sabbath Records Played Backwards" either. Satanists are immature and morally & spiritually stunted.  They are selfish, self-centered, power hungry and paranoid.  They think that magick will give them power over others and get them whatever they want.  They think magick will help them "get the other guy before, they get me".

Um…. wrong, wrong, wrong.  Conditionally true, conditionally true, conditionally true, wrong.  Wrong, and sorta true.  Wrong. I think this pretty much distances them from the Pagan movement.

If they were what you describe, yeah I’d say so.  However, they ain’t.  Is it so much to ask that you maybe try to find and speak with a Satanist before you go nuts and bristle like a cat at a dog show?  And go with an open mind… You remember what one of those is, right? Pretend, just for a moment, that a fundamentalist Christian is coming to ask you questions about your beliefs and religion.  Now adopt the same attitude you’d want them to have.  Make a list of questions.  Toss your preconceptions out the door.   They then bitch and whine when we find their theology repulsive

No, they bitch and whine when you form an opinion that clearly shows you know jack shit about their theology — something a great deal of Satanists don’t have in the first place. and claim that Pagans are all "fluffy bunnies", and try to deny the dark side.  I say f- that claim!  Most Pagans honor both the dark and light side and usually try to achieve a balance.  I see satanists as one-sided, fixated on the dark

side. Not ‘most’, hon.  Look around this group, and alt.pagan.  Some, yes. I’d find it difficult to say ‘most’ Pagans do anything.  As for Satanist fixations, yeah, for what I know of them, they are interested in the dark or left-hand paths.  You might be equating this with evil, which would be a mistake.  Not entirely the same thing. I find anyone fixated solely on the dark side rather sad. (and it’s gotta be lonely too

Save the pity, hon.  You don’t mean it, you’re just edging up your feelings of superiority.  It’s not lonely at all.  In fact, it’s getting damned crowded.  I’m sure there are Satanist who pity you your closed mind, too. I’ve also got a question- does anyone think there are alot of women satanists???  or are they mostly male???? (I’m talking healthy women, with self-esteem, maybe some feminists???)  Something tells me you won’t find alot of women in the satanist’s camps.

Not a lot, no.  But the majority of Wiccans (not Pagans, wiccans) are women. Is this supposed to indicate something? Anyway, I’m an exception. I’m female, strong, healthy, decent self-esteem and I’m closer to Satanist than to Wiccan. Yep, my 2 cents! Jana

And 2 back atcha. Nova "Happiness comes in small doses, folks. It’s a cigarette, or a chocolate cookie, or a five-second orgasm. That’s it, ok? You cum, you eat the cookie, you smoke the butt, you go to sleep, you get up in the morning and go to fucking work, ok? That is it. End of fucking list." – Dennis Leary "No Cure for Cancer"

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Well I’ve been following this thread and I’ll tell you what most of my Pagan friends and acquaintances think about satanists.

Do your Pagan friends and acquaintances actually know any Satanists? Satanists are immature and morally & spiritually stunted.  They are selfish, self-centered, power hungry and paranoid.  They think that magick will give them power over others and get them whatever they want.  They think magick will help them "get the other guy before, they get me". I think this pretty much distances them from the Pagan movement.

Are you kidding? Sounds like they fit right in! Satanists are, perhaps, just a little more honest… I admire those who a really good at Satanism. They take their selfishness to the point of totally ingenuous generosity you never see in, say, Wiccans. Yeah, it’s true, most Satanists get bogged down in egotism, unable to progress because losing ego causes short-term pain. They then bitch and whine when we find their theology repulsive and claim that Pagans are all "fluffy bunnies", and try to deny the dark side.  I say f- that claim!  Most Pagans honor both the dark and light side and usually try to achieve a balance.  I see satanists as one-sided, fixated on the dark side.

Many Pagans don’t have a clue about the dark side. That’s why so many of us behave so badly. It’s like people leave their courtesy, generosity and good temperament at the door when they become Pagans – and completely unconsciously. Wiccans in particular – many think themselves so much better than Satanists because they believe in their Rede: but apparently it’s something to be worked around or conveniently ignored in everyday life: after all, it’s impossible to do almost anything without harming someone somewhere. And they even write it in fake Olde Englishe, and then forget what the word ‘an’ means. I mean, if you’re going to abandon values like that, at least know you’re doing it.  Then you won’t be offended when people take exception to your obnoxiousness. I see it as a matter of ego, by which I understand the part of your mind that tells you, inaccurately, how wonderful you are. The best Satanists find a ruthless honesty we would be wise to emulate, without needing to follow the parts of their philosophy distasteful to us. While I’m on the topic of Pagan self-improvement: Pagan groups would do well to make sure a person is of ‘good character’ before initiating them.  This seems to be often forgotten. Individual pagans, like myself, do well to judge groups very carefully before accepting initiation.  Ask yourself: Are these people of good character? Are they in good mental health? Is being in the group doing them any good? Is this something I can get out of easily? Does this group satisfy my religious or magical needs? Are their beliefs similar to mine? Are they competent at what they do? Are they worthy of me? Etc. If you don’t already know them, you should evaluate the group and its members for at least a year: ONLY THEN should you ever consider either ‘perfect love’ or ‘perfect trust’. I find anyone fixated solely on the dark side rather sad. (and it’s gotta be lonely too I’ve also got a question- does anyone think there are alot of women satanists???  or are they mostly male???? (I’m talking healthy women, with self-esteem, maybe some feminists???)  Something tells me you won’t find alot of women in the satanist’s camps.

A matter of courage, perhaps? — Ashley Branchfeather

Response:

: Hey All, : Actually I have been wondering what satanism has to with paganism and wicca in : the first place. Don’t you have to be christian before you can be a satanist, : and I believe pagans are not christian. No.   Read the alt.satanism FAQ for a decent overview. Blessings, Natalie — *** I don’t speak for HP ***                   *** fight breast cancer *** WARNING!  This is an UNCENSORED copy of Natalie’s signature!  Transmitting this signature could be in violation of the Telecommunications Act of 1996. Free Speech Online Blue Ribbon Campaign: http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html

Response:

: Well I’ve been following this thread and I’ll tell you what most of my Pagan : friends and acquaintances think about satanists. And apparently what you think as well, yes? : Satanists are immature and morally & spiritually stunted.   Provide evidence for this assertion.   : They are selfish, : self-centered, power hungry and paranoid.   Ditto.   : They think that magick will give : them power over others and get them whatever they want.   Ditto.   : They think magick will : help them "get the other guy before, they get me". Perhaps.  You make it sound like a *bad* thing.  :-) : I think this pretty much distances them from the Pagan movement. If it were true, it *might* (although I’ve known plenty of selfish, power-hungry, paranoid Pagans).  But you have yet to provide a shred of evidence that all is as you say.   : They then bitch and whine when we find their theology repulsive and claim that : Pagans are all "fluffy bunnies", and try to deny the dark side.   Well, first of all, it might help if you demonstrated understanding of their theology before declaring it repulsive.  You *have* read the alt.satanism FAQ, correct?   And I’ve never heard a sweeping generalization from a Satanist to the effect that *all* Pagans are fluffbunnies.  Some, certainly.   : I say f- that : claim!  Most Pagans honor both the dark and light side and usually try to : achieve a balance.  I see satanists as one-sided, fixated on the dark side. You apparently don’t know Satanists terribly well.   : I find anyone fixated solely on the dark side rather sad. (and it’s gotta be : lonely too I find anyone who feels the need to pontificate about something which they seem not to understand more than a little sad.   : I’ve also got a question- does anyone think there are alot of women : satanists???  or are they mostly male???? (I’m talking healthy women, with : self-esteem, maybe some feminists???)  Something tells me you won’t find alot : of women in the satanist’s camps. Your point being?   I don’t consider myself a Satanist, but my beliefs have a great deal in common with some forms of Satanism.   Blessings, Natalie — *** I don’t speak for HP ***                   *** fight breast cancer *** WARNING!  This is an UNCENSORED copy of Natalie’s signature!  Transmitting this signature could be in violation of the Telecommunications Act of 1996. Free Speech Online Blue Ribbon Campaign: http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html

Response:

Well I’ve been following this thread and I’ll tell you what most of my Pagan friends and acquaintances think about satanists. Satanists are immature and morally & spiritually stunted.  They are selfish, self-centered, power hungry and paranoid.  They think that magick will give them power over others and get them whatever they want.  They think magick will help them "get the other guy before, they get me". I think this pretty much distances them from the Pagan movement. They then bitch and whine when we find their theology repulsive and claim that Pagans are all "fluffy bunnies", and try to deny the dark side.  I say f- that claim!  Most Pagans honor both the dark and light side and usually try to achieve a balance.  I see satanists as one-sided, fixated on the dark side. I find anyone fixated solely on the dark side rather sad. (and it’s gotta be lonely too I’ve also got a question- does anyone think there are alot of women satanists???  or are they mostly male???? (I’m talking healthy women, with self-esteem, maybe some feminists???)  Something tells me you won’t find alot of women in the satanist’s camps. Yep, my 2 cents! Jana

Response:

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