Question:

Some links, that are good for you: http://www.santosha.com/asanas/ http://www.santosha.com/hatha-yoga.html This one has a book (in portuguese and in english) – ashtanga yoga: You don’t need to follow all the serial, but you can check if you’re doing the asanas well (without the vinyasa) – do it in the way of Hatha yoga: http://www.itsyoga.net/us/tools.asp here you have a pose finder: http://www.theyogashop.co.uk/WEB2004/html/main/students.php another one: http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/index.cfm?ctsrc=tnav the ashtanga yoga again. You don’t need to follow all the serial, but you can check if you’re doing the asanas well (without the vinyasa) – do it in the way of Hatha yoga: http://www.ayri.org/opening-prayer.html Moon

Response:

dear moon ) sorry i did not reply, was very! busy also in depression… my book is 1st issue 1994 but printed 1996 in yugoslavia (serbian lang.) The pranayamas I know and I think are safe for you…

thanx now i plan 2 devote myself 2 reading of book & learning so i’ll try 2 concentrate on ch u suggested *** I use to do three prans before the session of asanas. An after the session of pranayamas we use to rest in savasana or do yoga nidra. *** B) i planned 2 ask u about this in the meantime because from my first yoga book (jasmina puljo – yoga) {which i found btw very shallow book with almost pure physical excer.} (if i remember well) although sometimes (rare) i do little pran. in the middle of asana practice (while relaxation pause in any vertical spinal-column asana), also i do thinking of practicing pranayama after asana… yoga nidra< i only knew what is this basicaly (relaxation technique)

but do not know correctly Just to make sure, avoid generally<<

2 me there is no need 2 say twice, i mostly appreciate! practical advices *** Don’t work with you’re stomach or belly, usually the low breathing is done with the diafragm. The more low is the breathing more calm us. *** the term "low breathing" i am not familiar with, but pressume that u mean that air (energy-prana) entered through nose and through the throat is carry in almost 2 the genitals or low belly (not litteraly but it feels like something like that) The more low is the breathing more calm us<

i also  noticed that & find it good thing, but the way i translated what u wrote i am not sure that is positive or something as "over-calm" also i would like 2 ask u (but not sure if ok before reading of this book) do u – or better is it ok 2 practice pranayama while in stress, depression, bad emotional situation or something similar, until now i read that it is not good 2 practice under that circumstances, also i found similarity that when physical body is tempted it is not good 2 practice it also the right time of the day and such practical inf. or it is individualy as i alredy noted i c yoga in my life as a wonderful way of physical/mental relaxation and health-holder because i feel much more westener (fortunately or not!) – point toward outer world in one sence (not litteraly) so in some way look on yoga as the cut-off from this rough world so i’m very sorry if bothering u with basic questions also thank u much! for links u posted

Response:

Correction: I use to do three prans before the session of asanas. An after the session of asanas we use to rest in savasana or do yoga nidra.

Response:

Follow the link: http://www.yogamatters.com/acatalog/bihar_top_texts.html There are another good book for you (but I don’t have it): "Yoga and Kriya" Swami Satyananda Saraswati Is a course of three years….

Response:

another link (the book here is more expensive – but the has a better explnation): http://theyogashop.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28_39_71&prod…

Response:

I’m still thinking about this: "my breathing is done with "belly-work" – work of stomach little above genitals, when outhbreath it is done by my will, when inbreath i almost leave my body 2 inbreath alone in deep stomach "

go to chapter 20: I think you’re doing kapalabati. But I wouldn’t call it "belly-work", what is working is the diaphragm. Is similar to bhastrika (in this case the air is forced in the 2 ways – in and out) Is a good practice as well as you don’t do bandhas, nor kumbhakas…… Stay allways with the basic methods. "belly-work" – sounds like something else and is a practice called Nauli – in fact is not intended for you: is even more advanced than the bandhas. Iyengar says (in Light on yoga) that is a practice that could be used just only having mastered uddiyana bandha…. Good work! Moon

Response:

hi moon 1) i usually do it just u describe also using gyana mudra 2) ***  This breathing is used to begin with the left side (first intake)…. and ends with the outake of the left side (don’t ask me why). Is safe as long as you don’t hold to much time. *** ok, until now i did contra start & finish on right side *** If you are not very sure what you are doing, stay with those two pranayamas *** that is the case so i’ll gladly stay on this 2 also i’m not so ethusiastic in children sense (could not find better word in dictionary) i do it as a body/mind hygiene, but i would like 2 do it ok what i ment as belly-work is that in this 2 pranayamas i use full capacity of my lungs with start from bottom of it so when inbrething firstly air goes into the bottom (my stomach arises) and even when full inbreath also go to chapter 20: <<

in my book on serbian there is no ch20 (different translation) so on 7.C. KAPALBHATI pranayama is explained (also given table3 & graph) explanation about  active outbreath & passive inbreath suits perfectly on that how i breath until now, so because of active outbreath volume of my lungs goes below normal value after (total) outbreath if that is ok on your opinion i would continue with it 2     thanx on book advices, if i find something of it on next bookfair ill c 2 buy in case of sufficit of $ B) in the meantime i’ll read this 1 i found 1 more book on pranayama on http://www.dlshq.org/download/pranayama.pdf as well as other yoga bookz on http://www.dlshq.org/download/download.htm which was posted here on alt.yoga maybe there is something 4 u in case u have not been there yet thank u much! 4 support

Response:

See if you can find in the version of your book (my version is the english – 2nd edition 2002):The number of the chapters given are of this edition. The pranayamas I know and I think are safe for you, are: – 15 th – Basic breathing:         diaphragmatic or abdominal breathing – is good to calm down         You can do the other types in this capter as well     (don’t hold the breath or hold just for a second or two) – 18th – balancing pran – any one as long you don’t do bandhas. There’s a table in my book – which means you can do the beginers level – 19 th tranquilizing pran – any one: do everything is called basic. Avoid everything is called advanced, and avoid also bandhas – 20 th – vitalizing pran – any one: do everything is called basic. Avoid everything is called advanced, and avoid also bandhas  - 21 st – pran for childreen – everything…..  - 22 nd – asana for pran – do whatever makes you feel confortable as well as you column is straight.  - 23 rd – mudras – any you want   – 24 th – bandhas – forget…(for the time beeing)  - 25 th prana vydia – forget..(for the time beeing) I use to do three prans before the session of asanas. An after the session of pranayamas we use to rest in savasana or do yoga nidra. Just to make sure, avoid generally: – the items intermediate and advanced; – bandhas; – avoid kumbakas (holding) or hold during a very small amount of time. Don’t work with you’re stomach or belly, usually the low breathing is done with the diafragm. The more low is the breathing more calm us. Moon

Response:

I’ve never read that book but Pranayama (breath regulation) is one of the first steps in meditation so the basics is essentially slow, steady breathing. William Lee ‘How To Overcome Pain Thru The POWER Of Meditation’ (Due to graphic images, viewer discretion is advised) http://www.painrelief-meditation-yoga.com/TH/Enter.htm

Response:

thanx on book advices, if i find something of it on next bookfair ill c 2 buy in case of sufficit of $ B) in the meantime i’ll read this 1 i found 1 more book on pranayama on http://www.dlshq.org/download/pranayama.pdf as well as other yoga bookz on http://www.dlshq.org/download/download.htm

Hello again: The line you’re trying to follow is the Satyananda’s. Sivananda was the guru of Satyananda, which means you’re in the same line. Is a mixture of Hatha yoga and other types of yoga and is also related to tantra (the right hand tantra – this means that is the non-sex tantric tradition). You could also try the Iyengar’s tradition. Is advantages is that is a more pure type of hatha yoga, which is good for you, and his books and schools are well spread all over the world. The guru of Iyengar was Krishmacharya, and the main disciples of him were    -  Iyengar;    -  Desikachar (Krishmacharya’s son) – famous by is line

Question:

Hello, I am most interested in the spiritual aspect of yoga. Is Hatha yoga considered to be one of the more spiritual types of yoga. If not, which type or types are? Thank you.

Howdy Arthur! There are basically 4 different disciplines in yoga: Hatha, Raja, Bhakti and Jnana (Gyana.) I would suggest that you investigate each one in order to decide for yourself which one (or combination) best suits YOUR DEFINITION of "spirituality." — Dave

Question:

Dear Sir or Madam: I am a college student at the University of Northern Iowa, and I am very interested in Yoga and conducting research on the topic.  I would appreciate it if you could provide your insights regarding the following research questions.  Your responses to these questions will not be identified and your identity will remain anonymous in the research.  Also, if you wish to receive a copy of this research report, please indicate so in the last question, and you will receive a copy when the research is completed.  Please send your response to have any questions about this research, please feel free to contact my 1.  What are your likes / dislikes of doing Yoga?

Likes It is the means to end all suffering through concentration and meditation that lead to samadhi. Particular types of yoga – real yoga – are the ultimate authority on Reality or God. It is an intellectual means of understanding spirituality. It is healthful and makes you feel good. People that do not do it ask humorus questions about it. Dislikes Every manner of clueless idiots attempt to associate yoga with what they are doing and call it yoga. Thus, yoga no longer has anymore meaning than Hinduism and it is extremely important to qualify your brand of yoga, lest you be judged to be an idiot too. Idiots object pointing out they are ‘individuals’ implying there are as many types of yoga as people. While ego-minds (individuals) number in the billions this means there are billions of kinds of yoga. Anyone can do anything and call it yoga. That everyone has their own path is not in question. Associating that path with and calling it yoga discredits genuine people that do yoga. Yoga for instance has God. But it is likely half the people in this NG do not believe in God. It may be their path not believing in God, but it is not yoga. Nor is exercise yoga. I like exercise and do lots of it. But I don’t call it yoga. No 2 responses in this NG will likely say the same thing confirming the flagrant abuse of the word yoga. 2.  Have you noticed any changes in your body and/or mood since you’ve started?  Please Explain.

Mood changes are produced by neurochemical changes in the brain. Yoga stimulates the endocrine glands and balances neurtransmitter chemicals to normalize them. The purpose of yoga has nothing to do with mood changes. Hatha yoga makes you more supple and you benefit from health. Stretching relieves stress stored in the body. The inverted postures flush the brain with blood and oxygenate the blood when combined with breathing exercises (pranayama) and remove waste products by gently squeezing the liver and kidneys and stimulating them. Particularly from uddiyana. 3.  Do you feel yoga is a better workout than aerobic exercise?  How so?

Hatha Yoga has nothing to do with exercise. Power Yoga is a joke. Hatha Yoga is instrumental in learning to concentrate (the purpose of hatha yoga) and move energy in the body to heal it. 4.  What are your feelings about Ashtanga Yoga?

I feel like it does not matter what my feelings about it would be understood by you. 5.  Do you feel Ashtanga Yoga is a better workout?

Yoga has nothing to do with exercise. Your question is irrelevant. 6.  Do you wish to receive a copy of this research report? Yes or No.

No. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank You for your time. Sincerely, R. Schuknecht Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa Sarina Chen, Ph.D Associate Professor Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa.

Response:

Dear Sir or Madam: I am a college student at the University of Northern Iowa, and I am very interested in Yoga and conducting research on the topic.  I would appreciate it if you could provide your insights regarding the following research questions.  Your responses to these questions will not be identified and your identity will remain anonymous in the research.  Also, if you wish to receive a copy of this research report, please indicate so in the last question, and you will receive a copy when the research is completed.  Please send your response to have any questions about this research, please feel free to contact my 1.  What are your likes / dislikes of doing Yoga? 2.  Have you noticed any changes in your body and/or mood since you’ve started?  Please Explain. 3.  Do you feel yoga is a better workout than aerobic exercise?  How so? 4.  What are your feelings about Ashtanga Yoga? 5.  Do you feel Ashtanga Yoga is a better workout? 6.  Do you wish to receive a copy of this research report? Yes or No. Thank You for your time. Sincerely, R. Schuknecht Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa Sarina Chen, Ph.D Associate Professor Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa.

Response:

The intention of my post was to benefit the young person who had requested help with their project. I was (I hoped) ever so gently chiding them for requesting something of a group of strangers, receiving a positive response and then not following through. I suppose it’s the house holder (father) in me. I have a couple of teenage boys I am responsible to provide feedback for

I see your aim is high, I was hoping it is such. — Brachman alone is Real. Om, Om…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Sir and Madam: I am a student at the University of Northern Iowa, and I am very interested in yoga because many of my friends have intrigued me about it; and I am writing a journalistic report about this topic.  I would appreciate it if you could provide your insights about this topic answering the following questions.  Please note that by providing me your insights, your responses remain confidential and your identity remains anonymous.  Also, if you wish to receive a copy of this report, please indicate so in the last question, and you will receive a copy when the report is completed.  Please send your response to my email any questions about this inquiry, please feel free to contact my Thank you. What aspects of yoga interest you?     mental – spiritual Which school or schools of yoga do you follow?    hatha What do you know of the history of yoga?   i haven’t studied the history much.  i know its very old and had a resurgance in the early 1900’s and again in the hippy dippy ’60’s How did you begin to practice yoga?    i was inexpliably drawn to it at age 45. i started and remained with basic hatha classes. What benefits have you received after practicing yoga?    physically – increased flexibility and balance. emotionally- more faith in myself and acceptance of myself. I handle negative things much better. Do you believe that yoga is a religious experience? spiritual – yes, religious – no Do you wish to receive a copy of this report? – no thanks. Sincerely, C. McIntosh Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa Sarina Chen, Ph.D. Associate Professor Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa

Response:

Hey big C, Why haven’t you answered any of the posts (mine of course) to your request? Not that important? Or what? Namaste (it mean "I bow to the divine in you", in sankrit.)

If you feel Divinity inside, you should feel Complete, then why do you still need external stimuli (in this case command respect from others, isn’t it a weakness)? — Brachman alone is Real. Om, Om…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Sir and Madam: I am a student at the University of Northern Iowa, and I am very interested in yoga because many of my friends have intrigued me about it; and I am writing a journalistic report about this topic.  I would appreciate it if you could provide your insights about this topic answering the following questions.  Please note that by providing me your insights, your responses remain confidential and your identity remains anonymous.  Also, if you wish to receive a copy of this report, please indicate so in the last question, and you will receive a copy when the report is completed.  Please send your response to my email any questions about this inquiry, please feel free to contact my Thank you. What aspects of yoga interest you? Which school or schools of yoga do you follow? What do you know of the history of yoga? How did you begin to practice yoga? What benefits have you received after practicing yoga? Do you believe that yoga is a religious experience? Do you wish to receive a copy of this report? Sincerely, C. McIntosh Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa Sarina Chen, Ph.D. Associate Professor Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa Hey big C, Why haven’t you answered any of the posts (mine of course) to your request? Not that important? Or what? Namaste (it mean "I bow to the divine in you", in sankrit.)

It seems C. McIntosh was expecting to receive answers by mail ("Please send your response to my email address"), so he wouldn’t have to come back to the NG to get them.. If it’s any comfort, I liked your answers. S.

Response:

Dear Sir and Madam: I am a student at the University of Northern Iowa, and I am very interested in yoga because many of my friends have intrigued me about it; and I am writing a journalistic report about this topic.  I would appreciate it if you could provide your insights about this topic answering the following questions.  Please note that by providing me your insights, your responses remain confidential and your identity remains anonymous.  Also, if you wish to receive a copy of this report, please indicate so in the last question, and you will receive a copy when the report is completed.  Please send your response to my email any questions about this inquiry, please feel free to contact my Thank you. What aspects of yoga interest you? Which school or schools of yoga do you follow? What do you know of the history of yoga? How did you begin to practice yoga? What benefits have you received after practicing yoga? Do you believe that yoga is a religious experience? Do you wish to receive a copy of this report? Sincerely, C. McIntosh Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa Sarina Chen, Ph.D. Associate Professor Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa

Response:

OK, let’s go! I like quiz’s What aspects of yoga interest you?

All… That was easy! Which school or schools of yoga do you follow?

There are thousands (just like American colleges!). Perhaps you meant which path/s do I follow.I am a Jnani. I also study and practice aspects of: karma, bhakti, raja, and hatha yoga. What do you know of the history of yoga?

A great deal. How did you begin to practice yoga?

While recovering from alcohol addiction, I realized there was God  and in my search for some means to connect with him I was drawn to yoga as the most systematic and rational way. What benefits have you received after practicing yoga?

Each particular yoga confers its own benefits. For me, I would say the greatest benefit I have received is a context in which to approach God. In addition I have received numerous physical, mental and spiritual benefits. Do you believe that yoga is a religious experience?

Yes (careful about asking yes/no questions.) Do you wish to receive a copy of this report?

Yes. I hope you will do/share your whole report right here in alt.yoga for all of us (and many others) to benefit from. Besides more then a few of us went to college and I for one would have loved to have done a report/research like this had I been smart (intrigued) enough. Namaste

Response:

Thank you Sevenhundred Elves for your kind words. I like your nic, perhaps you would tell me where it came from and/or what it means . Yes it was me who suggested the change of protocol to incorporate the NG into the process of developing the study/article. But then this is a NG and that’s the nature of how NGs work. To provide this person with the information they seek would require a whole lot of work. So if I were to invest any significant amount of time in trying to help them I would prefer to do it in public and with the help of  the other knowledgeable participants of alt.yoga. Besides as I mentioned to Piotr, I think it would be a shame to take a wonderful inquiry like the one proposed off-line and private. I would take it a step further and suggest that if it needs to be private for some reason then there is something "wrong" with it. As I think about it, I am a little surprised no one else has stepped up and answered the questions in the thread Perhaps they are following the prescribed plan and emailing. But then you see, I can’t know that. I have in the past posted "quizzes" of sorts to the group. Most of these were of a more personal nature, deeply important to me, so I could understand if few or no one answered. These questions posed by the university student are fairly general and so should be easily answered. I for one would love to hear the answers. Over the years there have many who have posted questions, to which people responded and then they never acknowledged the answers. There can be a million different reasons why someone might do that. However in my value system, anything short of death or incapacitation would lack class Namaste

Response:

Thank you Sevenhundred Elves for your kind words. I like your nic, perhaps you would tell me where it came from and/or what it means .

Hehe, thanks! I think it’s the coolest nym on Usenet, with the possible exception of Archimedes Plutonium. It’s from an old English folksong called "Seven Hundred Elves", about some poor elves who had their habitat destroyed by deforestation just because some greedy farmer wanted more land for his crops and cattle. I like that song. Yes it was me who suggested the change of protocol to incorporate the NG into the process of developing the study/article. But then this is a NG and that’s the nature of how NGs work. To provide this person with the information they seek would require a whole lot of work. So if I were to invest any significant amount of time in trying to help them I would prefer to do it in public and with the help of  the other knowledgeable participants of alt.yoga. Besides as I mentioned to Piotr, I think it would be a shame to take a wonderful inquiry like the one proposed off-line and private. I would take it a step further and suggest that if it needs to be private for some reason then there is something "wrong" with it.

Perhaps he thought email would be better for some people for reasons of privacy, so he’d get more answers? After all, *I’m* more or less anonymous here, not totally hidden, of course, but not immediately recognizable to my employers and other real-life characters, which is good in case I ever lose my calm and make a fool of myself in public. I guess if I’d answer the quiz in email, I could keep in touch with the student, and ask to be notified when the results of the study was published. As I think about it, I am a little surprised no one else has stepped up and answered the questions in the thread

Ok, I’ll do it. Perhaps they are following the prescribed plan and emailing. But then you see, I can’t know that. I have in the past posted "quizzes" of sorts to the group. Most of these were of a more personal nature, deeply important to me, so I could understand if few or no one answered. These questions posed by the university student are fairly general and so should be easily answered. I for one would love to hear the answers.

I agree that the result, at least, should be posted here, since most of us surely are curious about what others think of yoga (that’s why we are here, after all). Over the years there have many who have posted questions, to which people responded and then they never acknowledged the answers. There can be a million different reasons why someone might do that. However in my value system, anything short of death or incapacitation would lack class

Ouch! I’m sure I’ve often forgotten to acknowledge some replies! Sorry. I’ll try to do better. Namaste S.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Sir and Madam: I am a student at the University of Northern Iowa, and I am very interested in yoga because many of my friends have intrigued me about it; and I am writing a journalistic report about this topic.  I would appreciate it if you could provide your insights about this topic answering the following questions.  Please note that by providing me your insights, your responses remain confidential and your identity remains anonymous.  Also, if you wish to receive a copy of this report, please indicate so in the last question, and you will receive a copy when the report is completed.  Please send your response to my email any questions about this inquiry, please feel free to contact my Thank you. What aspects of yoga interest you?

The spiritual parts, mostly. My asana practice has deteriorated. Which school or schools of yoga do you follow?

Iyengar. Hatha yoga. I also learn a lot from Patanjali. What do you know of the history of yoga?

Probably far less than most scholars on the subject. How did you begin to practice yoga?

I must decline to answer. What benefits have you received after practicing yoga?

I’m still flexible in mind and body, in spite of being fairly, uh, ‘middle-aged’. Do you believe that yoga is a religious experience?

Yes, I think the experience that can be gotten from yoga is the same as what religious mystics of all religions sometimes get. Do you wish to receive a copy of this report?

Post it here. I don’t do email. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sincerely, C. McIntosh Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa Sarina Chen, Ph.D. Associate Professor Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa

Response:

Hi Piotr, Nice to hear from you. Of course you are correct. There is no such thing as respect or lack of to command or not. There is only God. The intention of my post was to benefit the young person who had requested help with their project. I was (I hoped) ever so gently chiding them for requesting something of a group of strangers, receiving a positive response and then not following through. I suppose it’s the house holder (father) in me. I have a couple of teenage boys I am responsible to provide feedback for I have to admit I was/am a bit disappointed that they haven’t followed through. I thought a little youthful energy directed towards inquiring into the meaning of yoga, might just be the thing to bring a little life into the group.  I love  learning and I love to teach, so the prospect of some discovery going on was attractive. Hopefully we will see if it is a real inquiry or just troll/spam. Namaste

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Sir and Madam: I am a student at the University of Northern Iowa, and I am very interested in yoga because many of my friends have intrigued me about it; and I am writing a journalistic report about this topic.  I would appreciate it if you could provide your insights about this topic answering the following questions.  Please note that by providing me your insights, your responses remain confidential and your identity remains anonymous.  Also, if you wish to receive a copy of this report, please indicate so in the last question, and you will receive a copy when the report is completed.  Please send your response to my email any questions about this inquiry, please feel free to contact my Thank you. What aspects of yoga interest you? Which school or schools of yoga do you follow? What do you know of the history of yoga? How did you begin to practice yoga? What benefits have you received after practicing yoga? Do you believe that yoga is a religious experience? Do you wish to receive a copy of this report? Sincerely, C. McIntosh Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa Sarina Chen, Ph.D. Associate Professor Dept. of Communication Studies Univ. of Northern Iowa

Hey big C, Why haven’t you answered any of the posts (mine of course) to your request? Not that important? Or what? Namaste (it mean "I bow to the divine in you", in sankrit.)

Response:

Question:

Hello, I might have not truly understood what Yoga is. Full understanding might not come w/o experience.

For me, the word yoga is best left ambiguous and just over the horizon.  As we move our vistas change and new possibilities present themselves.  No single word can contain everything, though many people try to understand (force) everything.  Let it go, and be free. If you need a definition then take one of my favourites, Yoga is the Skillful Dance with Existence. Wade

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I might have not truly understood what Yoga is. Full understanding might not come w/o experience. From the society I come from, and before getting myself a bit educated about the subject, my surrounding gave me the impression that yoga is about a posture or sitting in lotus and things like that. Now in this group, I see talks and ideas that I’m not sure how related to yoga they are, however we talk about philosophy, how to react and what to do and how to be aware then we talk about postures. Don’t know why Yoga is named Yoga and not unmaned cause we are supposed to be doing what we are doing naturally. We don’t talk about "Living" cause we’re living, now if yoga is a way of life then why label it; If we name it yoga and then all our conclusions will belong to that word and will be classified under yoga. We would advise others, guide others, but we would again relate and give credits of our talks and conclusions to "Yoga". I believe from this classification appears varieties and then we find many types of teachings. If Yoga is a way of life, simple, love, truth, awareness; then I ask a christian, he would tell me that christianity is that too, i ask another happy religious person and he would reply the same. All the same but different names….So I wonder, when I hear someone saying: Christianity works for me, Mohamedan works or Yoga works for me…as all these teaching will reach the same end,…isn’t our mind just picking up a style just to keep us different and unique from others (at least for a while)?

For any given person, one style maybe easier, more approachable or feel more natural than the other.. Or you may have a personal dislike for another style.

Response:

About Yoga. What is yoga? looks like good ref material here. http://hrih.hypermart.net/patanjali/ http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/download.htm Now in this group, I see talks and ideas that I’m not sure how related to yoga they are, however we talk about philosophy, how to react and what to do and how to be aware then we talk about postures. Don’t know why Yoga is named Yoga and not unmaned cause we are supposed to be doing what we are doing naturally.

We apply consciousness to what we are doing. We learn the disciplines to complement that. We know that we are committed to it. Yet our committment is not enough. The transcendental wisdom we tap into that. We understand and know that understanding is different from experiencing. We seek to open up our compassion center …. learn true acceptance. It’s surely not for everyone but it does seem to me that the process supports self care and honesty. We don’t talk about "Living" cause we’re living, now if yoga is a way of life then why label it;

It’s a map to self-examination. See what is going on automatically. Does that automatic serve u or is there more to u and ur potential. It’s not for everyone. See I want honesty. Yoga helps me with that. If we name it yoga and then all our conclusions will belong to that word and will be classified under yoga.

what happens when we turn the mirror on ourself stay focused on that. We would advise others, guide others, but we would again relate and give credits of our talks and conclusions to "Yoga".

so u want to call it something? that’s philosophy not yoga. perhaps u have ur own agenda. I believe from this classification appears varieties and then we find many types of teachings. If Yoga is a way of life, simple, love, truth, awareness; then I ask a christian, he would tell me that christianity is that too, i ask another happy religious person and he would reply the same.

More philosophy. Focus is I, me, my. Do that. All the same but different names….So I wonder, when I hear someone saying: Christianity works for me, Mohamedan works or Yoga works for me…as all these teaching will reach the same end,…isn’t our mind just picking up a style just to keep us different and unique from others Like someone buys a new fashion cloth to get ahead of others or be a bit unique. But then again when he wears it and get protected from the cold he would know that all cloth are the same. After sharing my thoughts, I would like to ask too what types of Yoga there is and what is the difference (through your understanding)…. Sometimes I read, read, read and can have an answer for everything but I don’t answer…cause I fell I am not doing something other than using my memory…..what is left for us if almost everything is there and written?

that doesn’t really make sense to me. u are there aren’t u. now that’s a macrocosm. seeking.

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Hello, I might have not truly understood what Yoga is. Full understanding might not come w/o experience. From the society I come from, and before getting myself a bit educated about the subject, my surrounding gave me the impression that yoga is about a posture or sitting in lotus and things like that. Now in this group, I see talks and ideas that I’m not sure how related to yoga they are, however we talk about philosophy, how to react and what to do and how to be aware then we talk about postures. Don’t know why Yoga is named Yoga and not unmaned cause we are supposed to be doing what we are doing naturally. We don’t talk about "Living" cause we’re living, now if yoga is a way of life then why label it; If we name it yoga and then all our conclusions will belong to that word and will be classified under yoga. We would advise others, guide others, but we would again relate and give credits of our talks and conclusions to "Yoga". I believe from this classification appears varieties and then we find many types of teachings. If Yoga is a way of life, simple, love, truth, awareness; then I ask a christian, he would tell me that christianity is that too, i ask another happy religious person and he would reply the same. All the same but different names….So I wonder, when I hear someone saying: Christianity works for me, Mohamedan works or Yoga works for me…as all these teaching will reach the same end,…isn’t our mind just picking up a style just to keep us different and unique from others (at least for a while)? Like someone buys a new fashion cloth to get ahead of others or be a bit unique. But then again when he wears it and get protected from the cold he would know that all cloth are the same. After sharing my thoughts, I would like to ask too what types of Yoga there is and what is the difference (through your understanding)…. Sometimes I read, read, read and can have an answer for everything but I don’t answer…cause I fell I am not doing something other than using my memory…..what is left for us if almost everything is there and written? — Elias

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My favourite – pre classical yoga: – jnana – bhakti – karma above paths are described in Bhagavad Gita: http://www.thedivinelifesociety.org/download/bgita.htm you’ll find shorter descriptions at: http://www.SivanandaDlshq.org/teachings/teachings.htm

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Hello, I might have not truly understood what Yoga is. Full understanding might not come w/o experience. snip Don’t know why Yoga is named Yoga and not unmaned cause we are supposed to be doing what we are doing naturally.

The term Yoga can be a bit confusing sometimes because the same word is used to denote two separate ideas related to the same thing. Yoga means union. It is the goal, to be united in awareness of the Truth (God). Yoga also is the path for attaining union and refers to different techniques for achieving union with God (Bhakti, Karma, Hatha, Raga, Jnana, Laya, etc.) Yoga is the goal and yoga is also the path to the goal. After sharing my thoughts, I would like to ask too what types of Yoga there is and what is the difference (through your understanding)….

In very simple and general terms some of the larger classifications of yoga are: Bhakti, the yoga of devotion or love of God. (prayer, chanting, devotion) Karma, the yoga of selfless action and service to God (serving others without reward) Hatha, the yoga of perfecting the body as a temple of God (exercise, cleansing, strength) Raga, the yoga of stillness and integration with God. (Patanjali’s eight steps concentration, meditation) Laya, the yoga of vibration and energy, as expression of God (chakras, energy, kundalini) Jnana, the yoga of intellect and knowledge of God. (Discrimination, neti-neti, study) I recommend highly, Richard Hittleman’s YOGA: The 8 Steps to Health and Peace. It is a great introduction to Yoga written for westerner’s. I also recommend Paramahansa Yogananda’s, The Autobiography of a Yogi. It was written specifically to introduce Yoga to the West and is a great story. Namaste

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Question:

[...] Raising Kundalini to a Kundalini Yogi and others means awareness dwelling primarily in higher chakras. That is can cause big problems by itself but it is not the sort of problem that Gopi Krishna had or I had. Hatha yoga is used to use Kundalini as the means to samadhi. It is a superconscious state of bliss that is extremely dramatic. Kundalini yogi’s of Yogi Bhajan do not experience this.

Wrong. We just lable it different. Something like "dramtic hocuspocus" and not "Kundalini rising". Boy, you can be spaced out in Kundalini Yoga! Never experienced it? Then try practicing 35 minutes of Sat Kriya with 60 people in a room that has space for 40 people followed by a Gong Meditation. After that you’ll think you are Buddha reborn  Nor do others and they do not know of the ecstatic state of samadhi as a hatha yogi does. Because they do not know, they then extrapolate the false idea that it i nonexistent.

Nobody ever said that. There is fireworks and it is nice! But it is not the essence to have permanent fireworks This is a dangerous idea. Kundalini can make you a permanent vegtable or kill you. If anyone wants to tell me otherwise I have a simple expression for this. You are an idiot.

Some ppl seem to be keen on beeing killed… You are quite brave generalizing so much and stating what yogis of a certain type of yoga experience and what they do not. It is the height of ignorance to claim to know what highly developed yogis of any type experience.

Agree. "Me and Gopi Krishna…" *grin* Gopi Krishna himself stated that he didn’t knew what was happening to him and that he still does not really understand Kundalini. You can read it in the book "Kundalini" by John White in the article about the "Myths and Missconceptions about Kundalini". Regarding Gopi Krishna: What he did was not Hatha Yoga as we know it. He did refraind from sleep for days and meditated the whole time. Experiments like that must cause haluzinations and psychotic states even in sane people. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you know anything about the various different types of yoga you will know that their goal is the same, the attainment of a permanent state of Self-realization through either sattvic action free of attachment (karma), devotional attunement with a form of God (bhakti), attainment of samadhi through meditative practices (raja) etc etc. It is not Kundalini that makes you a permanent vegetable and it does not kill you. What Kundalini is is the potential energy of the person becoming kinetic and bringing the impressions in the subconscious and conscious and superconscious minds out into manifestation. So what can make you a vegetable or kill you are the tendencies of thought and action which you cultivate or have cultivaed in the past within yourself. Kundalini merely actualizes the subtle impressions you have stored over lifetimes because these are lying latent within the sushumna and brain. They can never be experienced again and released unless they are awakened by Kundalini and worked out. You have to become aware of something in order to direct your attention to it. If you call people idiots because they tell you otherwise than what you have decided for yourself as a result of the fear of your own subconscious made manifest by Kundalini, than you are the fool, not them. Remember that one of the important ingredients of treading the path of Kundalini is to have a true guide, your Sat-Guru who will take you to the goal. Without that it may indeed be dangerous because you have no one to support you from within and without, no one to ‘drive your car’ except yourself and if you are a bad driver you will surely crash. Tell me, did you have a fully-illumined Kundalini master guide and initiate you when you had your practice and experiences with Kundalini yoga? As I said before, all those people that do not and can not raise Kundalini lie to themselves and tell themselves and others there is no such thing. Since this is 95 percent of the ’spiritual’ community, they are all in good company. They can all cry in each others beer/sympathize with each other/deny Kundalini. Thats their problem. Denial is quite prevalent just like day-dream meditation and Power yoga fads. But don’t try to tell me your crap. Again you are generalizing and assuming things. 95% of the spiritual community? ROFL did you go around conducting a survey or something? It seems to me it is you who is denying Kundalini.

Right! Because the rising of it is much much more and deeper and more beautiful then the shallow spiritual dramatic fireworks! "Illumination first brings peace, then confidence and assurance; it brings rest from the world’s contests, and then all good flows to us through Grace." Joel Goldsmith Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh I love quotes What is your fear? "Fear comes into being when I desire to be in a particular pattern. To live without fear means to live without a particular pattern. When I demand a particular way of living that in itself is a source of fear." J. Krishnamurti

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Thats a very wise course of action. Trouble is sometimes people have spontaneous Kundalini experiences that they are not prepared for as a result of meditating without even using pranayama or specifically Kundalini-raising techniques of meditation.

This is correct brother; but you know that in Yoga we attribute such spontaneous awakenings to past life efforts. Meaning they are still results of Kundalini-raising techniques of meditation.

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Yes Wade, Kundalini cannot screw up because screwing up is not a Kundalini issue. Like beeing awake isn’t beeing asleep or a car with a full tank doesn’t runs out of gas. A Kundalini awakening is the opposite of beeing "screwed up" for years.

Hari Har Singh is a pseudo-Sikh disciple of the mastermind of the worldwide pseudo-Sikh racket, Harbhajan Singh Puri a.k.a. Yogi Bhajan. Who is Yogi bhajan? http://www.rickross.com/groups/3ho.html Please scroll down for the articles.

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Seeker, Your describing the monks of ancient man. Those sitting behind the wall locked into that hermitage for the rest of thier lives . Nothing to do except wait look for god to reveal itself to them if it was going too. Which it hardly ever did in its full capacity if ever as most of those hermitages were built after for someone that did. The following rarely ever did. Your repeating the long smooth drawn out steps they arrived at condensed as the perfect way all aspects the weakest link actually the niyamas which goes into the cultural society its rituals and ways to support the heritage’s indirectly. These centuries resulted in a perfectly balanced view or look at the human condition in a man as a man and how, yet we are discussing persons behind 4 walls not going anyplace other for the rest of their lifes where as the person whom they are detailing in detal figuring out who did the actual work. These/this person only had the bits pieces of what they detailed of course. Then their was actual fear if the moment occured they would miss it if not ready hence they waited. Everyone knows asians kept thier furniture low so as to sit cross legged ready for the moment if possible already ready as its just the moment that was unsure. It wasnt a shortage of wood or uncomfortablity the timing is uncertain always was that of birth that to the moment. Dont create the image of a holier than thou with those in study tending to make these puppets try to pull the same strings these puppets have other things to do more rewarding as recyclers. veggie lifestyles, vagabonds naturalists and benefit from those studies not starting over staring at the walls if they want something its thiers if its thier time. Those older ones walled away just fine tuning now that easily learned or hard or expensive made to apear other than what it was or is by todays swindlers that think nobody knows and the time is money nonsense . All of meditation can be learned remembered in a day today used for a life. The ones outside the walls are thousands of times more likely that those inside yet those inside fine tune. Its extremely rare for someone to walk inside do it and leave. That brings joy to all those that ever stood inside not outside. You need to readjust your views some or cut the JD end.

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Impressive discussion about Kundalini here All this psychological and esoteric effects of yoga techniques are well reported but to raise Kundalini is one of the last steps, I prefer to learn to walk first… It`s a fact that nearly all techniques of Hatha-yoga are rumoured to bring results, but not just on the body. Even a simple posture is described as being a wonderful medicine against illness. I don`t argue about this, but I wonder: what exactly turns any body technique into a psychic one? The postures are increasing the body consciousness and pranayama helps to feel the breath-consciousness, that is, what lives in the body. But, this is not useful to see any reason to learn nearly impossible body positions and/ or to hold the postures "forever". After some asanas and pranayama, the mind is ready to concentrate. Concentration in the asanas and pranayama is important…so, what comes first? A body work-out to loose all muscles and pranayama to concentrate on prana AND then concentration OR some efforts to feel this prana energies straight from beginning and then starting postures? Each posture works with another body part, and each body movement breaks the concentration a bit, how can someone work on the sensitive prana system by doing 20-40 or even more asanas daily?! If the goal is to reach a state where you just hold…then I can`t see any reason to go in another posture It`s not helpful to argue about Kundalini or similar energies. Would be better to help each other on our paths. Thanks Mr. Dream

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Impressive discussion about Kundalini here All this psychological and esoteric effects of yoga techniques are well reported but to raise Kundalini is one of the last steps, I prefer to learn to walk first…

Thats a very wise course of action. Trouble is sometimes people have spontaneous Kundalini experiences that they are not prepared for as a result of meditating without even using pranayama or specifically Kundalini-raising techniques of meditation. You may walk a great distance before you feel ready for Kundalini, then attempt to raise it when you feel you are ready and still find yourself stuck up shit creek when it does happen because it brings up things you had no idea were there before. Somehow I think a trial by fire is going to come to everyone who treads the path to enlightenment; you walk a certain distance and after Kundalini experiences you begin to run if you are up to the task. It`s a fact that nearly all techniques of Hatha-yoga are rumoured to bring results, but not just on the body. Even a simple posture is described as being a wonderful medicine against illness. I don`t argue about this, but I wonder: what exactly turns any body technique into a psychic one?

It is not that a physical posture turns into a psychic one. The physical body is the solidification through density of atomic vibration of the pranic or astral body which in turn is a manifested blue-print of the thought or causal body. Whenever we perform any physical movement, we are moving in all three bodies at once. Thought directs the flow of energy to manipulate the physical vehicle. Knowing this, hatha yoga was devised by the sages as a means to purify the physical body through methods of directing the healing, rejuvenating prana to certain parts by different postures. Originally, the whole of hatha was meant for purifying the body and training it to be able to sit in meditation without being distracted for long periods. The postures are increasing the body consciousness and pranayama helps to feel the breath-consciousness, that is, what lives in the body.

Ideally, the postures do more than increase body awareness. True hatha incorporates awareness of breath so it is a bit like pranayama and asanas mixed together. We are always moving energy by way of breath. The difference in pranayama is that we do it consciously using certain techniques of breathing which yield control of prana. However, true hatha also emphasizes awareness of breath while performing asanas. In a sense, one is performing pranayama in hatha all the time, it is just that the control of the prana is effected by bodily postures while remaining aware of the breath whereas in pranayama proper the control of prana is effected by methods of breathing and concentration. But, this is not useful to see any reason to learn nearly impossible body positions and/ or to hold the postures "forever". After some asanas and pranayama, the mind is ready to concentrate. Concentration in the asanas and pranayama is important…so, what comes first? A body work-out to loose all muscles and pranayama to concentrate on prana AND then concentration OR some efforts to feel this prana energies straight from beginning and then starting postures?

Agreed. In fact certain teachers have said that the best positions within hatha can be focused upon and there is no need to practice or master all of the traditional ones since they number in the hundreds. One yogi said it is enough to practice 12 of the most beneficial though I forget which ones they are. In regard to your question: doing the asanas with awareness of breath automatically gives you a greater awreness of the prana as you perform them. True hatha, as was explained before, already incorporates awareness of breath and thus control of the prana. The control of the prana while aware of the breath in hatha is accomplished by performing the various asanas. In pranayama proper it is accomplished by performing pranayama techniques or breathing with concentration in an immobile asana. Each posture works with another body part, and each body movement breaks the concentration a bit, how can someone work on the sensitive prana system by doing 20-40 or even more asanas daily?!

Prana is moving whether we are moving the body or sitting still. The evidence of this is that the breath is also always moving in both cases. One can work on the pranic system by performing asanas because in that case the prana is directed by awareness of breath while performing them and also the changes in position of the body itself causes changes in the flow of prana along the various channels that it flows in the body. If the goal is to reach a state where you just hold…then I can`t see any reason to go in another posture

Remember, the original purpose of hatha was to purify and master the body so it would not be a distraction when sitting for pranayama proper and concentration, meditation. The way hatha was designed was to move from certain prescribed poses into others for a reason; that being that the movement from one to the other effected a desired change in the flow of prana from one place to another. Of course it is not meant to endlessly repeat asanas with no intended goal in mind. This is why there are certain prescribed poses to move into from one to another, culminating a sitting pose for meditation in which you can practice the higher steps of yoga. Having attained ‘asana’ you are then ready to practice pranayama to get a hold of the prana and take it deep within (pratyahara), into the spine and brain centres where dharana, dhyana and samadhi are then progressively cultivated. It`s not helpful to argue about Kundalini or similar energies. Would be better to help each other on our paths.

To argue is not helpful. To point out flaws in understanding in a public place for the benefit of those who read and want to know about yoga is helpful and it is helping others on their path. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Mr. Dream

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Ain’t it great never having commited myself to being anything? I call it the bricks and boards technique. A real attention getter. When someone talks about causing other people harm I break it out.

Could you make a bit more sense? What has not commiting yourself to being anything have anything to do with Kundalini yoga? Please be more clear. Causing other people harm is not the work of Kundalini but your own karmas being manifested through Kundalini. Therefore, as others have said to you already, it is not Kundalini who is the culprit but your own shadow aspect of self. You will have to come to terms with this at some point. If you are not fit to work with Kundalini at this point in your spiritual evolution you should not decry the whole of Kundalini yoga as though there is no one fit to practice it just because you are not. Do you know the difference between Self-Realization and Enlightenment? Obviously not.

To my knowledge they are the same. Enlightenment implies the illumination of the consciousness in realizing Its true self as Sat-Chit-Ananda, Cosmic-Consciousness. Raising Kundalini to a Kundalini Yogi and others means awareness dwelling primarily in higher chakras. That is can cause big problems by itself but it is not the sort of problem that Gopi Krishna had or I had. Hatha yoga is used to use Kundalini as the means to samadhi. It is a superconscious state of bliss that is extremely dramatic. Kundalini yogi’s of Yogi Bhajan do not experience this. Nor do others and they do not know of the ecstatic state of samadhi as a hatha yogi does. Because they do not know, they then extrapolate the false idea that it i nonexistent. This is a dangerous idea. Kundalini can make you a permanent vegtable or kill you. If anyone wants to tell me otherwise I have a simple expression for this. You are an idiot.

You are quite brave generalizing so much and stating what yogis of a certain type of yoga experience and what they do not. It is the height of ignorance to claim to know what highly developed yogis of any type experience. If you know anything about the various different types of yoga you will know that their goal is the same, the attainment of a permanent state of Self-realization through either sattvic action free of attachment (karma), devotional attunement with a form of God (bhakti), attainment of samadhi through meditative practices (raja) etc etc. It is not Kundalini that makes you a permanent vegetable and it does not kill you. What Kundalini is is the potential energy of the person becoming kinetic and bringing the impressions in the subconscious and conscious and superconscious minds out into manifestation. So what can make you a vegetable or kill you are the tendencies of thought and action which you cultivate or have cultivaed in the past within yourself. Kundalini merely actualizes the subtle impressions you have stored over lifetimes because these are lying latent within the sushumna and brain. They can never be experienced again and released unless they are awakened by Kundalini and worked out. You have to become aware of something in order to direct your attention to it. If you call people idiots because they tell you otherwise than what you have decided for yourself as a result of the fear of your own subconscious made manifest by Kundalini, than you are the fool, not them. Remember that one of the important ingredients of treading the path of Kundalini is to have a true guide, your Sat-Guru who will take you to the goal. Without that it may indeed be dangerous because you have no one to support you from within and without, no one to ‘drive your car’ except yourself and if you are a bad driver you will surely crash. Tell me, did you have a fully-illumined Kundalini master guide and initiate you when you had your practice and experiences with Kundalini yoga? As I said before, all those people that do not and can not raise Kundalini lie to themselves and tell themselves and others there is no such thing. Since this is 95 percent of the ’spiritual’ community, they are all in good company. They can all cry in each others beer/sympathize with each other/deny Kundalini. Thats their problem. Denial is quite prevalent just like day-dream meditation and Power yoga fads. But don’t try to tell me your crap.

Again you are generalizing and assuming things. 95% of the spiritual community? ROFL did you go around conducting a survey or something? It seems to me it is you who is denying Kundalini. Not that it exists but the fact that it is the natural inevitable mechanism within the human being that brings him or her to liberation after it has finished the process of cleaning out the karmic storehouse. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike Dubbeld Muktananda once said that Godess Kundalini, the Mother Shakti, is sometimes a very hard woman but that he would not give Her up for anything in the world. The entire issue of Kundalini is among the most misunderstood in  yoga. It is not necessary to raise Kundalini to go to samadhi for  example.  Why do you think Patanjali does not talk about it in his Yoga  Sutras?  Don’t forget, hatha yoga and pranayama are late inventions. But yoga  is  talked about in the Bhagavad Gita. Also, when people talk about raising Kundalini, they can mean entirely different things. Much to my astonishment, as a hatha yogi, I discovered people that refer to  raising Kundalini have NO superconscious ecstatic experience when they  do  this. What they are talking about is the gradual permanent (more or  less) ascent of Kundalini energy residing predominantly in higher  chakras. If something does go wrong you will need a guru to bail your  butt  out. It can take years for problems to go away and it can kill you.  No  doctor can diagnois what is wrong. They can determine what is wrong but  not what to do about it except band-aid it maybe with drugs to allow  you  to sleep for instance or tranquilizers. I have to include this  warning because there are a lot of idiots out there that totally deny  Kundalini is dangerous (foremost from Kundalini Yoga – where as I said,  raising Kundalini is the safest means I know but there is no dramatic superconscious ecstatic experience). Because raising Kundalini In Kundalini Yoga has no ecstatic supreconscious they falsely believe there is no such thing. But  that  is the ignorance of Kundalini Yoga practitioners/their inexperience/knowledge of only Kundalini Yoga which is quite  safe  and again does not give rise to any ecstatic superconscious states. But it is not only practitioners of Kundalini Yoga that lack  experience. Hatha yoga is full of people that practice for years doing  something obviously bizzare and never finding Kundalini. My guess is that  this  is a good thing too. They are so foolish they believe all these sources are wrong. Maybe calling them ‘idiots’ is a bit strong. No, it is not a bit strong it is more than a bit necessary to  prevent other idiots from perpetuating ignorance. When it comes to serious matters like this I want it made absolutely clear where I stand on  this. In other words, it will not be me the finger is pointed at for a catastropic event in someones life/that I did not warn them/say so. It is not only EASY for me to call them idiots – it is VERY EASY  because it happened to me and the same idiots that never even had a single Kundalini rising despite practicing some bizare thing for years,  want to tell me their crap. I don’t think so. Kundalini screwed me up for  years. I can raise Kundalini also and have been able to do so for many  years. The experiences I have are the same as you will find in any  authentic yogic literature. You will be hard pressed to find someone in this  NG that knows much of anything about Kundalini. We have a guy that  thinks you chose mantras for their ‘pleasantness.’ Another’s whole  tradition is based on mantra and doesn’t even know there is a connection between mantra and yantra after doing this for many years? Sorry, when you lack experience and the confidence that comes with  it you must water down your opinions. What is really going on here is the usual Bull shit. People doing  things wrong all their lives and never raise Kundalini. So they lie to themselves – convince themselves it is all an allegory or some kind  of analogy/not real at all. This is their excuse for whatever baloney  they have been doing and calling yoga. If you want to close your eyes and daydream and call it meditation – you are a joke. An idiot. I do not have sympathy for you. It is not rocket science. There are a million excuses for failure. So the rest of the idiots will then gather  round the campfire and relate their failures – and vote the idea of  Kundalini

… read more »

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is not only EASY for me to call them idiots – it is VERY EASY because it happened to me and the same idiots that never even had a single Kundalini rising despite practicing some bizare thing for years, want to tell me their crap. I don’t think so. Kundalini screwed me up for years. It was not kundalini that "screwed" you up but your very own self.  Like Hari said people abuse themselves in many ways in a effort to fulfill their vision of having a kundalini awakening.  Its one’s own mental constructs that damages oneself.  It was not kundalini. Wade

Yes Wade, Kundalini cannot screw up because screwing up is not a Kundalini issue. Like beeing awake isn’t beeing asleep or a car with a full tank doesn’t runs out of gas. A Kundalini awakening is the opposite of beeing "screwed up" for years. Mike: think about this: No serious spiritual path has the goal to create screwed up haluzinating zombies. What is spirituality really about? To awaken you to your own human potential. But i understand that it is frustrating for you to hear this. I’m sorry if reading this is disapointing you Mike. No offence meant. I’m not denying the quest you made towards Kundalini and the experiences you had. I simply wouldn’t call what you described a "rising Kundalini" experience. But I’m shure you will find enough people who will tell you what you want to hear. I don’t belong to them. If that does make me an "idiot" – i can life with it. Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh "The only thing that can hurt you is your own ego." – YB

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip Ignaorance and idiocy do not walk hand in hand. Irresponsibility is not telling someone they are an idiot for telling people things that can cause them harm. Ignorance is no excuse for the law and people lacking experience is no excuse for telling them something that can cause them harm. Irresponcibility is not fixing the damage when you see it but rather pointing fingers. Not teaching people wanting to know will eventually lead them to make experiments for themselves. Curiosity is a human condition. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but that does not apply for a lot of knowledge. – One of the dilemmas of teachers. The teacher must convey the entire package of knowledge before letting the student out on his/her own, otherwise catastrophy ensues.

The entire package does include the possibility of you screwing yourself up beyond repair. Not pointing that out is irresponsible. People that don’t point that out may not know in ignorance but it makes it no less dangerous. Mike Dubbeld

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Whoa Mike, the venom with which you talk indicates your kundalini has a lot of work to do on you yet

Ain’t it great never having commited myself to being anything? I call it the bricks and boards technique. A real attention getter. When someone talks about causing other people harm I break it out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kundalini is a safe path for those who cultivate the yama/niyama steps of Patanjali’s eightfold path. If they dont, raised kundalini experiences will convince them of the necessity of this. The difficult experiences we undergo as the result of an awakened kundalini show us precisely the inner problems we need to work on, the karmas we need to release. Another especially important aspect of Kundalini yoga is to have the guidance of a true Sat-Guru, one who is qualified to lead the chela to completion. There are way too many teachers who are not qualified to do this who are nevertheless teaching Kundalini yoga. A true Sat-Guru is one who has attained full God-consciousness and mastered his self, not just someone who has raised their kundalini to a certain degree. Yogananda once stated that any experience of God-consciousness is always the result of some amount of kundalini flowing to the higher spine and brain centres. To say it is not necessary to raise kundalini to experience enlightenment is a misnomer.

Do you know the difference between Self-Realizationg and Enlightenment? Obviously not. Some amount of the life force flowing into the sushumna and up to the higher chakras is essential to attaining higher states, it is what activates awareness of the very centres which furnish superconscious states.

Raising Kundalini to a Kundalini Yogi and others means awareness dwelling primarily in higher chakras. That is can cause big problems by itself but it is not the sort of problem that Gopi Krishna had or I had. Hatha yoga is used to use Kundalini as the means to samadhi. It is a superconscious state of bliss that is extremely dramatic. Kundalini yogi’s of Yogi Bhajan do not experience this. Nor do others and they do not know of the ecstatic state of samadhi as a hatha yogi does. Because they do not know, they then extrapolate the false idea that it i nonexistent. This is a dangerous idea. Kundalini can make you a permanent vegtable or kill you. If anyone wants to tell me otherwise I have a simple expression for this. You are an idiot. As I said before, all those people that do not and can not raise Kundalini lie to themselves and tell themselves and others there is no such thing. Since this is 95 percent of the ’spiritual’ community, they are all in good company. They can all cry in each others beer/sympathize with each other/deny Kundalini. Thats their problem. Denial is quite prevalent just like day-dream meditation and Power yoga fads. But don’t try to tell me your crap. Mike Dubbeld – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Muktananda once said that Godess Kundalini, the Mother Shakti, is sometimes a very hard woman but that he would not give Her up for anything in the world. The entire issue of Kundalini is among the most misunderstood in  yoga. It is not necessary to raise Kundalini to go to samadhi for example.  Why do you think Patanjali does not talk about it in his Yoga Sutras?  Don’t forget, hatha yoga and pranayama are late inventions. But yoga is  talked about in the Bhagavad Gita. Also, when people talk about raising Kundalini, they can mean entirely different things. Much to my astonishment, as a hatha yogi, I discovered people that refer to  raising Kundalini have NO superconscious ecstatic experience when they do  this. What they are talking about is the gradual permanent (more or less) ascent of Kundalini energy residing predominantly in higher chakras. If something does go wrong you will need a guru to bail your butt  out. It can take years for problems to go away and it can kill you. No  doctor can diagnois what is wrong. They can determine what is wrong but not what to do about it except band-aid it maybe with drugs to allow you  to sleep for instance or tranquilizers. I have to include this warning because there are a lot of idiots out there that totally deny  Kundalini is dangerous (foremost from Kundalini Yoga – where as I said,  raising Kundalini is the safest means I know but there is no dramatic superconscious ecstatic experience). Because raising Kundalini In Kundalini Yoga has no ecstatic supreconscious they falsely believe there is no such thing. But that  is the ignorance of Kundalini Yoga practitioners/their inexperience/knowledge of only Kundalini Yoga which is quite safe  and again does not give rise to any ecstatic superconscious states. But it is not only practitioners of Kundalini Yoga that lack  experience. Hatha yoga is full of people that practice for years doing something obviously bizzare and never finding Kundalini. My guess is that this  is a good thing too. They are so foolish they believe all these sources are wrong. Maybe calling them ‘idiots’ is a bit strong. No, it is not a bit strong it is more than a bit necessary to prevent other idiots from perpetuating ignorance. When it comes to serious matters like this I want it made absolutely clear where I stand on this. In other words, it will not be me the finger is pointed at for a catastropic event in someones life/that I did not warn them/say so. It is not only EASY for me to call them idiots – it is VERY EASY because it happened to me and the same idiots that never even had a single Kundalini rising despite practicing some bizare thing for years, want to tell me their crap. I don’t think so. Kundalini screwed me up for years. I can raise Kundalini also and have been able to do so for many years. The experiences I have are the same as you will find in any authentic yogic literature. You will be hard pressed to find someone in this NG that knows much of anything about Kundalini. We have a guy that thinks you chose mantras for their ‘pleasantness.’ Another’s whole tradition is based on mantra and doesn’t even know there is a connection between mantra and yantra after doing this for many years? Sorry, when you lack experience and the confidence that comes with it you must water down your opinions. What is really going on here is the usual Bull shit. People doing things wrong all their lives and never raise Kundalini. So they lie to themselves – convince themselves it is all an allegory or some kind of analogy/not real at all. This is their excuse for whatever baloney they have been doing and calling yoga. If you want to close your eyes and daydream and call it meditation – you are a joke. An idiot. I do not have sympathy for you. It is not rocket science. There are a million excuses for failure. So the rest of the idiots will then gather round the campfire and relate their failures – and vote the idea of Kundalini not being anything more than an allegory or analogy/not real. Because the world is full of day-dream meditators and every other sort of baloney like Power Yoga jokes. The stories of Kundalini nightmares are on the web for everyone to see. This also is NOT rocket science. The bottom line is that I take a hard bottom line when your ignorance may cause someone else to put their own life in jeparody. That is when your ignorance makes you an idiot. Mike Dubbeld Just because someone doesn’t know a certain thing doesn’t make him/her an idiot, but rather  ignorant. I assume knowledge is availible for those who seek it, but the ability  to see the real information from the midless blabbering is clearsight, and  few people possess that. Throughout my time of seeking I’ve seen a lot of things, especially in the esoteric circles of the internet, and in the beginning I was truly lost about what was what. People have a tendency to rather talk than listen. To know what one  talks about one must do a lot of listening. — Nosforit 1. Living — Online — Corrupt practices

Response:

<snip Ignaorance and idiocy do not walk hand in hand. Irresponsibility is not telling someone they are an idiot for telling people things that can cause them harm. Ignorance is no excuse for the law and people lacking experience is no excuse for telling them something that can cause them harm.

Irresponcibility is not fixing the damage when you see it but rather pointing fingers. Not teaching people wanting to know will eventually lead them to make experiments for themselves. Curiosity is a human condition. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but that does not apply for a lot of knowledge. – One of the dilemmas of teachers. The teacher must convey the entire package of knowledge before letting the student out on his/her own, otherwise catastrophy ensues. I resent being judged, but assure you my confidence comes from knowledge and not from ignorance. – I am not a fool. I strive to point it out when I voice opinion, but otherwise I convey objective knowledge best to my understanding. Well good for you. Aren’t you special. If you want to tell someone Kundalini is not dangerous then I will be glad to tell you you are an idiot also. Despite your special subjective resentment.

I don’t want to talk about something I know nothing about, which is why I have not mentioned Kundalini. That which I have talked about in this thread I do know something about. If ignorance makes anyone an idiot, then every child you see is an idiot. Idiots take what children say seriously. Children are not idiots.

Children take what idiots say seriously. Idiots are still idiots. Idiocy is more closely related to an inability to understand than lack of knowledge. The vast majority of the population on Earth is ignorant, but all of them are not idiots. Good intellectual position. Now go read some of the disaster stories and tell those people how special your intellectual opinion is. See if they care/you are not called an idiot.

I already have read some of them, even if those were extremely vague. Apparently I must study the matter more to come to terms with what the actual problem and symptoms are. Why you have resoled to attacks against my person I can only speculate about. All I can say is that it is no ground for a constructive conversation. I would appreciate it if you would calm down a bit. — Nosforit
1. Living — Online — Corrupt practices

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The entire issue of Kundalini is among the most misunderstood in yoga. It is not necessary to raise Kundalini to go to samadhi for example. Why do you think Patanjali does not talk about it in his Yoga Sutras? Don’t forget, hatha yoga and pranayama are late inventions. But yoga is talked about in the Bhagavad Gita. Also, when people talk about raising Kundalini, they can mean entirely different things. Much to my astonishment, as a hatha yogi, I discovered people that refer to raising Kundalini have NO superconscious ecstatic experience when they do this. What they are talking about is the gradual permanent (more or less) ascent of Kundalini energy residing predominantly in higher chakras. If something does go wrong you will need a guru to bail your butt out. It can take years for problems to go away and it can kill you. No doctor can diagnois what is wrong. They can determine what is wrong but not what to do about it except band-aid it maybe with drugs to allow you to sleep for instance or tranquilizers. I have to include this warning because there are a lot of idiots out there that totally deny Kundalini is dangerous (foremost from Kundalini Yoga – where as I said, raising Kundalini is the safest means I know but there is no dramatic superconscious ecstatic experience). Because raising Kundalini In Kundalini Yoga has no ecstatic supreconscious they falsely believe there is no such thing. But that is the ignorance of Kundalini Yoga practitioners/their inexperience/knowledge of only Kundalini Yoga which is quite safe and again does not give rise to any ecstatic superconscious states. But it is not only practitioners of Kundalini Yoga that lack experience. Hatha yoga is full of people that practice for years doing something obviously bizzare and never finding Kundalini. My guess is that this is a good thing too. They are so foolish they believe all these sources are wrong. Maybe calling them ‘idiots’ is a bit strong. No, it is not a bit strong it is more than a bit necessary to prevent other idiots from perpetuating ignorance. When it comes to serious matters like this I want it made absolutely clear where I stand on this. In other words, it will not be me the finger is pointed at for a catastropic event in someones life/that I did not warn them/say so. Ignaorance and idiocy do not walk hand in hand.

Irresponsibility is not telling someone they are an idiot for telling people things that can cause them harm. Ignorance is no excuse for the law and people lacking experience is no excuse for telling them something that can cause them harm. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is not only EASY for me to call them idiots – it is VERY EASY because it happened to me and the same idiots that never even had a single Kundalini rising despite practicing some bizare thing for years, want to tell me their crap. I don’t think so. Kundalini screwed me up for years. I can raise Kundalini also and have been able to do so for many years. The experiences I have are the same as you will find in any authentic yogic literature. You will be hard pressed to find someone in this NG that knows much of anything about Kundalini. We have a guy that thinks you chose mantras for their ‘pleasantness.’ Another’s whole tradition is based on mantra and doesn’t even know there is a connection between mantra and yantra after doing this for many years? While I do value personal experience I also know that it is subjective. I can’t help but get the impression you’re mixing subjective experience and objective knowledge. – A souce of ignorance, or rather misinformation, in itself. Sorry, when you lack experience and the confidence that comes with it you must water down your opinions. I resent being judged, but assure you my confidence comes from knowledge and not from ignorance. – I am not a fool. I strive to point it out when I voice opinion, but otherwise I convey objective knowledge best to my understanding.

Well good for you. Aren’t you special. If you want to tell someone Kundalini is not dangerous then I will be glad to tell you you are an idiot also. Despite your special subjective resentment. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is really going on here is the usual Bull shit. People doing things wrong all their lives and never raise Kundalini. So they lie to themselves – convince themselves it is all an allegory or some kind of analogy/not real at all. This is their excuse for whatever baloney they have been doing and calling yoga. If you want to close your eyes and daydream and call it meditation – you are a joke. An idiot. I do not have sympathy for you. It is not rocket science. There are a million excuses for failure. So the rest of the idiots will then gather round the campfire and relate their failures – and vote the idea of Kundalini not being anything more than an allegory or analogy/not real. Because the world is full of day-dream meditators and every other sort of baloney like Power Yoga jokes. This phenomena is not limited to yoga. People tend to assume that what they do not see doesn’t exist, but that is a shortcoming of logic itself rather than in the people using it. I do not see UFOs, so they do not exist. In a sense I calim knowledge ad hoc, despite that being impossible. The stories of Kundalini nightmares are on the web for everyone to see. This also is NOT rocket science. The bottom line is that I take a hard bottom line when your ignorance may cause someone else to put their own life in jeparody. That is when your ignorance makes you an idiot. If ignorance makes anyone an idiot, then every child you see is an

idiot. Idiots take what children say seriously. Children are not idiots. Idiocy is more closely related to an inability to understand than lack of knowledge. The vast majority of the population on Earth is ignorant, but all of them are not idiots.

Good intellectual position. Now go read some of the disaster stories and tell those people how special your intellectual opinion is. See if they care/you are not called an idiot. Mike Dubbeld – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Nosforit 1. Living — Online — Corrupt practices

Response:

Greetings, Samo samo ya know…….after a prior DESCENT there is a REASCENT in this reascent kundalini is the lifting aspect from NOW at this point BOTTOM Center to TOP AGAIN Center cause thier was a prior descent from the Top to bottom first off. This got you off centerline axi anyway to the front left (sensory time factors signals brain /body) the event is not on the spine anyway and if you notice the lower spinal from the upper the event couldnt be on the spine just mimics it or your spines way back to the right as a trail is far in front to the left numbnuts/grin, darn must be several hundred times now. The stuff is invisible all you notice is the ghostly white trail it leaves as it rises closing behind itself an extremely short trail. The sushunma was very thin slight tilt that gives the ability to DESCEND in the first place so your ass can reascent ditto….. Its a joke a big laugh somebody started thinking your going to get INVISIBLE (nothing) stuff comming up from your gentilia area straight up into your head as its kinda fitting in ways to those that are attracted all pass’s bye bye invisible makes crystal clear sight a thin moment of there’s no better way to take some lazy sob than have him play with some prior steps and to get those prior steps are impossible too buy/purchase/exercise/repeat behaviors as they do in any possible

Response:

It is not only EASY for me to call them idiots – it is VERY EASY because it happened to me and the same idiots that never even had a single Kundalini rising despite practicing some bizare thing for years, want to tell me their crap. I don’t think so. Kundalini screwed me up for years.

It was not kundalini that "screwed" you up but your very own self.  Like Hari said people abuse themselves in many ways in a effort to fulfill their vision of having a kundalini awakening.  Its one’s own mental constructs that damages oneself.  It was not kundalini. Wade

Response:

<snip This phenomena is not limited to yoga. People tend to assume that what they do not see doesn’t exist, but that is a shortcoming of logic itself rather than in the people using it. I do not see UFOs, so they do not exist. In a sense I calim knowledge ad hoc, despite that being impossible.

Correction: A priori, not ad hoc. Latin is not one of my strong sides. — Nosforit
1. Living — Online — Corrupt practices

Response:

Whoa Mike, the venom with which you talk indicates your kundalini has a lot of work to do on you yet Kundalini is a safe path for those who cultivate the yama/niyama steps of Patanjali’s eightfold path. If they dont, raised kundalini experiences will convince them of the necessity of this. The difficult experiences we undergo as the result of an awakened kundalini show us precisely the inner problems we need to work on, the karmas we need to release. Another especially important aspect of Kundalini yoga is to have the guidance of a true Sat-Guru, one who is qualified to lead the chela to completion. There are way too many teachers who are not qualified to do this who are nevertheless teaching Kundalini yoga. A true Sat-Guru is one who has attained full God-consciousness and mastered his self, not just someone who has raised their kundalini to a certain degree. Yogananda once stated that any experience of God-consciousness is always the result of some amount of kundalini flowing to the higher spine and brain centres. To say it is not necessary to raise kundalini to experience enlightenment is a misnomer. Some amount of the life force flowing into the sushumna and up to the higher chakras is essential to attaining higher states, it is what activates awareness of the very centres which furnish superconscious states. Muktananda once said that Godess Kundalini, the Mother Shakti, is sometimes a very hard woman but that he would not give Her up for anything in the world. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The entire issue of Kundalini is among the most misunderstood in  yoga. It is not necessary to raise Kundalini to go to samadhi for example.  Why do you think Patanjali does not talk about it in his Yoga Sutras?  Don’t forget, hatha yoga and pranayama are late inventions. But yoga is  talked about in the Bhagavad Gita. Also, when people talk about raising Kundalini, they can mean entirely different things. Much to my astonishment, as a hatha yogi, I discovered people that refer to  raising Kundalini have NO superconscious ecstatic experience when they do  this. What they are talking about is the gradual permanent (more or less) ascent of Kundalini energy residing predominantly in higher chakras. If something does go wrong you will need a guru to bail your butt  out. It can take years for problems to go away and it can kill you. No  doctor can diagnois what is wrong. They can determine what is wrong but not what to do about it except band-aid it maybe with drugs to allow you  to sleep for instance or tranquilizers. I have to include this warning because there are a lot of idiots out there that totally deny  Kundalini is dangerous (foremost from Kundalini Yoga – where as I said,  raising Kundalini is the safest means I know but there is no dramatic superconscious ecstatic experience). Because raising Kundalini In Kundalini Yoga has no ecstatic supreconscious they falsely believe there is no such thing. But that  is the ignorance of Kundalini Yoga practitioners/their inexperience/knowledge of only Kundalini Yoga which is quite safe  and again does not give rise to any ecstatic superconscious states. But it is not only practitioners of Kundalini Yoga that lack  experience. Hatha yoga is full of people that practice for years doing something obviously bizzare and never finding Kundalini. My guess is that this  is a good thing too. They are so foolish they believe all these sources are wrong. Maybe calling them ‘idiots’ is a bit strong. No, it is not a bit strong it is more than a bit necessary to prevent other idiots from perpetuating ignorance. When it comes to serious matters like this I want it made absolutely clear where I stand on this. In other words, it will not be me the finger is pointed at for a catastropic event in someones life/that I did not warn them/say so. It is not only EASY for me to call them idiots – it is VERY EASY because it happened to me and the same idiots that never even had a single Kundalini rising despite practicing some bizare thing for years, want to tell me their crap. I don’t think so. Kundalini screwed me up for years. I can raise Kundalini also and have been able to do so for many years. The experiences I have are the same as you will find in any authentic yogic literature. You will be hard pressed to find someone in this NG that knows much of anything about Kundalini. We have a guy that thinks you chose mantras for their ‘pleasantness.’ Another’s whole tradition is based on mantra and doesn’t even know there is a connection between mantra and yantra after doing this for many years? Sorry, when you lack experience and the confidence that comes with it you must water down your opinions. What is really going on here is the usual Bull shit. People doing things wrong all their lives and never raise Kundalini. So they lie to themselves – convince themselves it is all an allegory or some kind of analogy/not real at all. This is their excuse for whatever baloney they have been doing and calling yoga. If you want to close your eyes and daydream and call it meditation – you are a joke. An idiot. I do not have sympathy for you. It is not rocket science. There are a million excuses for failure. So the rest of the idiots will then gather round the campfire and relate their failures – and vote the idea of Kundalini not being anything more than an allegory or analogy/not real. Because the world is full of day-dream meditators and every other sort of baloney like Power Yoga jokes. The stories of Kundalini nightmares are on the web for everyone to see. This also is NOT rocket science. The bottom line is that I take a hard bottom line when your ignorance may cause someone else to put their own life in jeparody. That is when your ignorance makes you an idiot. Mike Dubbeld Just because someone doesn’t know a certain thing doesn’t make him/her an idiot, but rather  ignorant. I assume knowledge is availible for those who seek it, but the ability  to see the real information from the midless blabbering is clearsight, and  few people possess that. Throughout my time of seeking I’ve seen a lot of things, especially in the esoteric circles of the internet, and in the beginning I was truly lost about what was what. People have a tendency to rather talk than listen. To know what one  talks about one must do a lot of listening. — Nosforit 1. Living — Online — Corrupt practices

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The entire issue of Kundalini is among the most misunderstood in yoga. It is not necessary to raise Kundalini to go to samadhi for example. Why do you think Patanjali does not talk about it in his Yoga Sutras? Don’t forget, hatha yoga and pranayama are late inventions. But yoga is talked about in the Bhagavad Gita. Also, when people talk about raising Kundalini, they can mean entirely different things. Much to my astonishment, as a hatha yogi, I discovered people that refer to raising Kundalini have NO superconscious ecstatic experience when they do this. What they are talking about is the gradual permanent (more or less) ascent of Kundalini energy residing predominantly in higher chakras. If something does go wrong you will need a guru to bail your butt out. It can take years for problems to go away and it can kill you. No doctor can diagnois what is wrong. They can determine what is wrong but not what to do about it except band-aid it maybe with drugs to allow you to sleep for instance or tranquilizers. I have to include this warning because there are a lot of idiots out there that totally deny Kundalini is dangerous (foremost from Kundalini Yoga – where as I said, raising Kundalini is the safest means I know but there is no dramatic superconscious ecstatic experience). Because raising Kundalini In Kundalini Yoga has no ecstatic supreconscious they falsely believe there is no such thing. But that is the ignorance of Kundalini Yoga practitioners/their inexperience/knowledge of only Kundalini Yoga which is quite safe and again does not give rise to any ecstatic superconscious states. But it is not only practitioners of Kundalini Yoga that lack experience. Hatha yoga is full of people that practice for years doing something obviously bizzare and never finding Kundalini. My guess is that this is a good thing too. They are so foolish they believe all these sources are wrong. Maybe calling them ‘idiots’ is a bit strong. No, it is not a bit strong it is more than a bit necessary to prevent other idiots from perpetuating ignorance. When it comes to serious matters like this I want it made absolutely clear where I stand on this. In other words, it will not be me the finger is pointed at for a catastropic event in someones life/that I did not warn them/say so.

Ignaorance and idiocy do not walk hand in hand. It is not only EASY for me to call them idiots – it is VERY EASY because it happened to me and the same idiots that never even had a single Kundalini rising despite practicing some bizare thing for years, want to tell me their crap. I don’t think so. Kundalini screwed me up for years. I can raise Kundalini also and have been able to do so for many years. The experiences I have are the same as you will find in any authentic yogic literature. You will be hard pressed to find someone in this NG that knows much of anything about Kundalini. We have a guy that thinks you chose mantras for their ‘pleasantness.’ Another’s whole tradition is based on mantra and doesn’t even know there is a connection between mantra and yantra after doing this for many years?

While I do value personal experience I also know that it is subjective. I can’t help but get the impression you’re mixing subjective experience and objective knowledge. – A souce of ignorance, or rather misinformation, in itself. Sorry, when you lack experience and the confidence that comes with it you must water down your opinions.

I resent being judged, but assure you my confidence comes from knowledge and not from ignorance. – I am not a fool. I strive to point it out when I voice opinion, but otherwise I convey objective knowledge best to my understanding. What is really going on here is the usual Bull shit. People doing things wrong all their lives and never raise Kundalini. So they lie to themselves – convince themselves it is all an allegory or some kind of analogy/not real at all. This is their excuse for whatever baloney they have been doing and calling yoga. If you want to close your eyes and daydream and call it meditation – you are a joke. An idiot. I do not have sympathy for you. It is not rocket science. There are a million excuses for failure. So the rest of the idiots will then gather round the campfire and relate their failures – and vote the idea of Kundalini not being anything more than an allegory or analogy/not real. Because the world is full of day-dream meditators and every other sort of baloney like Power Yoga jokes.

This phenomena is not limited to yoga. People tend to assume that what they do not see doesn’t exist, but that is a shortcoming of logic itself rather than in the people using it. I do not see UFOs, so they do not exist. In a sense I calim knowledge ad hoc, despite that being impossible. The stories of Kundalini nightmares are on the web for everyone to see. This also is NOT rocket science. The bottom line is that I take a hard bottom line when your ignorance may cause someone else to put their own life in jeparody. That is when your ignorance makes you an idiot.

If ignorance makes anyone an idiot, then every child you see is an idiot. Idiocy is more closely related to an inability to understand than lack of knowledge. The vast majority of the population on Earth is ignorant, but all of them are not idiots. — Nosforit
1. Living — Online — Corrupt practices

Response:

Why do you think Patanjali does not talk about it in his Yoga Sutras? I figure this is the same reason Iyenger doesn’t mention it much – because they had little personal experience of it. It appears that Kundalini experiences often happen relatively early in development – or not at all. All I can think of is doing something wrong. Don’t know what.  [...]

Personally, I don’t think that’s it.  The Kundalini experience is a great one – but missing out on it is probably not /that/ much of a big deal. Kundalini experiences are awakening experiences – and waking up is always more dramatic if you have been asleep for years. Every time kundalini rises and samadhi is experienced it is

  dramatic bliss. What newgroup is it that these other people that know what I am talking about are?

I don’t know.  I only had one full-blown Kundalini experience – all such subsequent experiences have been shadows by comparison. I don’t really expect to get another one on a similar scale – unless I quit yoga, let my spine go to sleep for years – and then try to wake it up again.  Even then I doubt it would be like the first time BTW, thanks for your links on Kundalini-dangers.  FWIW, my own experience went without a hitch.  The biggest "blockage" was thoracic – and after that was overcome there were no problems.  However the energy involved was obviously stupendous – and the thought of such a release occurring at the wrong place is not attractive. —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The entire issue of Kundalini is among the most misunderstood in yoga. It is not necessary to raise Kundalini to go to samadhi for example. Why do you think Patanjali does not talk about it in his Yoga Sutras? Don’t forget, hatha yoga and pranayama are late inventions. But yoga is talked about in the Bhagavad Gita. Also, when people talk about raising Kundalini, they can mean entirely different things. Much to my astonishment, as a hatha yogi, I discovered people that refer to raising Kundalini have NO superconscious ecstatic experience when they do this. What they are talking about is the gradual permanent (more or less) ascent of Kundalini energy residing predominantly in higher chakras. If something does go wrong you will need a guru to bail your butt out. It can take years for problems to go away and it can kill you. No doctor can diagnois what is wrong. They can determine what is wrong but not what to do about it except band-aid it maybe with drugs to allow you to sleep for instance or tranquilizers. I have to include this warning because there are a lot of idiots out there that totally deny Kundalini is dangerous (foremost from Kundalini Yoga – where as I said, raising Kundalini is the safest means I know but there is no dramatic superconscious ecstatic experience). Because raising Kundalini In Kundalini Yoga has no ecstatic supreconscious they falsely believe there is no such thing. But that is the ignorance of Kundalini Yoga practitioners/their inexperience/knowledge of only Kundalini Yoga which is quite safe and again does not give rise to any ecstatic superconscious states. But it is not only practitioners of Kundalini Yoga that lack experience. Hatha yoga is full of people that practice for years doing something obviously bizzare and never finding Kundalini. My guess is that this is a good thing too. They are so foolish they believe all these sources are wrong. Maybe calling them ‘idiots’ is a bit strong.

No, it is not a bit strong it is more than a bit necessary to prevent other idiots from perpetuating ignorance. When it comes to serious matters like this I want it made absolutely clear where I stand on this. In other words, it will not be me the finger is pointed at for a catastropic event in someones life/that I did not warn them/say so. It is not only EASY for me to call them idiots – it is VERY EASY because it happened to me and the same idiots that never even had a single Kundalini rising despite practicing some bizare thing for years, want to tell me their crap. I don’t think so. Kundalini screwed me up for years. I can raise Kundalini also and have been able to do so for many years. The experiences I have are the same as you will find in any authentic yogic literature. You will be hard pressed to find someone in this NG that knows much of anything about Kundalini. We have a guy that thinks you chose mantras for their ‘pleasantness.’ Another’s whole tradition is based on mantra and doesn’t even know there is a connection between mantra and yantra after doing this for many years? Sorry, when you lack experience and the confidence that comes with it you must water down your opinions. What is really going on here is the usual Bull shit. People doing things wrong all their lives and never raise Kundalini. So they lie to themselves – convince themselves it is all an allegory or some kind of analogy/not real at all. This is their excuse for whatever baloney they have been doing and calling yoga. If you want to close your eyes and daydream and call it meditation – you are a joke. An idiot. I do not have sympathy for you. It is not rocket science. There are a million excuses for failure. So the rest of the idiots will then gather round the campfire and relate their failures – and vote the idea of Kundalini not being anything more than an allegory or analogy/not real. Because the world is full of day-dream meditators and every other sort of baloney like Power Yoga jokes. The stories of Kundalini nightmares are on the web for everyone to see. This also is NOT rocket science. The bottom line is that I take a hard bottom line when your ignorance may cause someone else to put their own life in jeparody. That is when your ignorance makes you an idiot. Mike Dubbeld Just because someone doesn’t – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – know a certain thing doesn’t make him/her an idiot, but rather ignorant. I assume knowledge is availible for those who seek it, but the ability to see the real information from the midless blabbering is clearsight, and few people possess that. Throughout my time of seeking I’ve seen a lot of things, especially in the esoteric circles of the internet, and in the beginning I was truly lost about what was what. People have a tendency to rather talk than listen. To know what one talks about one must do a lot of listening. — Nosforit 1. Living — Online — Corrupt practices

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The entire issue of Kundalini is among the most misunderstood in yoga. It is not necessary to raise Kundalini to go to samadhi for example. Why do you think Patanjali does not talk about it in his Yoga Sutras? Don’t forget, hatha yoga and pranayama are late inventions. But yoga is talked about in the Bhagavad Gita. Also, when people talk about raising Kundalini, they can mean entirely different things. Much to my astonishment, as a hatha yogi, I discovered people that refer to raising Kundalini have NO superconscious ecstatic experience when they do this. What they are talking about is the gradual permanent (more or less) ascent of Kundalini energy residing predominantly in higher chakras. If something does go wrong you will need a guru to bail your butt out. It can take years for problems to go away and it can kill you. No doctor can diagnois what is wrong. They can determine what is wrong but not what to do about it except band-aid it maybe with drugs to allow you to sleep for instance or tranquilizers. I have to include this warning because there are a lot of idiots out there that totally deny Kundalini is dangerous (foremost from Kundalini Yoga – where as I said, raising Kundalini is the safest means I know but there is no dramatic superconscious ecstatic experience). Because raising Kundalini In Kundalini Yoga has no ecstatic supreconscious they falsely believe there is no such thing. But that is the ignorance of Kundalini Yoga practitioners/their inexperience/knowledge of only Kundalini Yoga which is quite safe and again does not give rise to any ecstatic superconscious states. But it is not only practitioners of Kundalini Yoga that lack experience. Hatha yoga is full of people that practice for years doing something obviously bizzare and never finding Kundalini. My guess is that this is a good thing too. They are so foolish they believe all these sources are wrong. Maybe calling them ‘idiots’ is a bit strong. Mr. Dubbled isn’t doing Kundalini Yoga a favor. Psychotic states of consciousness to relate with Kundalini rising is an often repeated myth

You mean your lack of experience. Tell it to all those people on the web and Dr. Sanella. Mike Dubbeld that doesn’t become more true through more repeating. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to judge psychotic states of consciousness as beeing good or bad or ppl having them as wrong or right. But they are simply not Kundalini rising related. What is dangerous is to try to raise Kundalini without an appropiate tool. What is dangerous then is the inapropriate technique used to raise Kundalini / not Kundalini itself. Would you say air is dangerous? Allthough it is not recomended to experiment with air through pulling a plastic bag over your head. This doesn’t make air dangerous but the technique used to experiment with it. People telling Kundalini is dangerous usually miss telling what technique they used to try to raise it (like for example don’t sleep and meditate the whole day for a  week or longer – one can imagine that this is creating problems, hm?). But a warning without the used technique isn’t doing Kundalini and / or Kundalini Yoga a favour and just strengthening obscure fears, missunderstandings and myths about this fascinating and everybody of us given energy. It is wrong that ppl who practice Kundalini Yoga does not have experienced psychotic states of consciousness. I meet ppl who have practiced Kundalini Yoga who before have had a long career in psychotherapeutic clinics and managed to deal with their disease with Kundalini Yoga. Some of them even managed to deal with acute psychotic states through the support of KY – allthough to try this alone is not recomended. But Kundalini Yoga is not designed to induce psychotic states allthough ppl who had them before could have them triggered through Yoga practice in general. It is also wrong that in Kundalini Yoga you cannot have exstatic superconsciousness experiences! Gee, I remember some exstatic white tantra classes… i sometimes even had funny haluzinations! (My – female – partner growing a beard) Totally spaced out Even "normal" Kundalini Yoga classes made me sometimes "spaced out". Remember: Kundalini Yoga started it’s carreer in the West among Hippie communes in the late 1960s as a healthy substitute to drugs like Mariuhana. And every Kundalini Yoga class leaves me in a mild euphoric state. I bet Mr Dubbled would say "grinning idiots" if he sees happy KY students after a class. That’s all very nice. But we don’t see this as "the essence" of KY. Just because someone doesn’t know a certain thing doesn’t make him/her an idiot, but rather ignorant. Not knowing isn’t a sin or idiotic. But judge others who (seem to) don’t know as idiotic is not very clever. I understand that Mr. Dubbled want’s to ‘rubb his ass’ (how do you say in english?) on me with his posting. He is not the first one in this NG in the past 7 years. I assume knowledge is availible for those who seek it, but the ability to see the real information from the midless blabbering is clearsight, and few people possess that. Throughout my time of seeking I’ve seen a lot of things, especially in the esoteric circles of the internet, and in the beginning I was truly lost about what was what. I can imagine that! People have a tendency to rather talk than listen. Especially in Usenet a lot of ppl are here to promote their opinions rather to support others. But there are also some here spending their time truely willing to exchange and support each other in their yogic experience in a unexcited and humble way. I do very much appreciate them. I hope you stay and support the path in the following years here too. To know what one talks about one must do a lot of listening. Yes. And that is sometimes not easy to do. Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The entire issue of Kundalini is among the most misunderstood in yoga. It is not necessary to raise Kundalini to go to samadhi for example. Why do you think Patanjali does not talk about it in his Yoga Sutras? Don’t forget, hatha yoga and pranayama are late inventions. But yoga is talked about in the Bhagavad Gita. Also, when people talk about raising Kundalini, they can mean entirely different things. Much to my astonishment, as a hatha yogi, I discovered people that refer to raising Kundalini have NO superconscious ecstatic experience when they do this. What they are talking about is the gradual permanent (more or less) ascent of Kundalini energy residing predominantly in higher chakras. If something does go wrong you will need a guru to bail your butt out. It can take years for problems to go away and it can kill you. No doctor can diagnois what is wrong. They can determine what is wrong but not what to do about it except band-aid it maybe with drugs to allow you to sleep for instance or tranquilizers. I have to include this warning because there are a lot of idiots out there that totally deny Kundalini is dangerous (foremost from Kundalini Yoga – where as I said, raising Kundalini is the safest means I know but there is no dramatic superconscious ecstatic experience). Because raising Kundalini In Kundalini Yoga has no ecstatic supreconscious they falsely believe there is no such thing. But that is the ignorance of Kundalini Yoga practitioners/their inexperience/knowledge of only Kundalini Yoga which is quite safe and again does not give rise to any ecstatic superconscious states. But it is not only practitioners of Kundalini Yoga that lack experience. Hatha yoga is full of people that practice for years doing something obviously bizzare and never finding Kundalini. My guess is that this is a good thing too. They are so foolish they believe all these sources are wrong. Maybe calling them ‘idiots’ is a bit strong.

Mr. Dubbled isn’t doing Kundalini Yoga a favor. Psychotic states of consciousness to relate with Kundalini rising is an often repeated myth that doesn’t become more true through more repeating. I don’t want to judge psychotic states of consciousness as beeing good or bad or ppl having them as wrong or right. But they are simply not Kundalini rising related. What is dangerous is to try to raise Kundalini without an appropiate tool. What is dangerous then is the inapropriate technique used to raise Kundalini / not Kundalini itself. Would you say air is dangerous? Allthough it is not recomended to experiment with air through pulling a plastic bag over your head. This doesn’t make air dangerous but the technique used to experiment with it. People telling Kundalini is dangerous usually miss telling what technique they used to try to raise it (like for example don’t sleep and meditate the whole day for a  week or longer – one can imagine that this is creating problems, hm?). But a warning without the used technique isn’t doing Kundalini and / or Kundalini Yoga a favour and just strengthening obscure fears, missunderstandings and myths about this fascinating and everybody of us given energy. It is wrong that ppl who practice Kundalini Yoga does not have experienced psychotic states of consciousness. I meet ppl who have practiced Kundalini Yoga who before have had a long career in psychotherapeutic clinics and managed to deal with their disease with Kundalini Yoga. Some of them even managed to deal with acute psychotic states through the support of KY – allthough to try this alone is not recomended. But Kundalini Yoga is not designed to induce psychotic states allthough ppl who had them before could have them triggered through Yoga practice in general. It is also wrong that in Kundalini Yoga you cannot have exstatic superconsciousness experiences! Gee, I remember some exstatic white tantra classes… i sometimes even had funny haluzinations! (My – female – partner growing a beard) Totally spaced out Even "normal" Kundalini Yoga classes made me sometimes "spaced out". Remember: Kundalini Yoga started it’s carreer in the West among Hippie communes in the late 1960s as a healthy substitute to drugs like Mariuhana. And every Kundalini Yoga class leaves me in a mild euphoric state. I bet Mr Dubbled would say "grinning idiots" if he sees happy KY students after a class. That’s all very nice. But we don’t see this as "the essence" of KY. Just because someone doesn’t know a certain thing doesn’t make him/her an idiot, but rather ignorant.

Not knowing isn’t a sin or idiotic. But judge others who (seem to) don’t know as idiotic is not very clever. I understand that Mr. Dubbled want’s to ‘rubb his ass’ (how do you say in english?) on me with his posting. He is not the first one in this NG in the past 7 years. I assume knowledge is availible for those who seek it, but the ability to see the real information from the midless blabbering is clearsight, and few people possess that. Throughout my time of seeking I’ve seen a lot of things, especially in the esoteric circles of the internet, and in the beginning I was truly lost about what was what.

I can imagine that! People have a tendency to rather talk than listen.

Especially in Usenet a lot of ppl are here to promote their opinions rather to support others. But there are also some here spending their time truely willing to exchange and support each other in their yogic experience in a unexcited and humble way. I do very much appreciate them. I hope you stay and support the path in the following years here too. To know what one talks about one must do a lot of listening.

Yes. And that is sometimes not easy to do. Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The entire issue of Kundalini is among the most misunderstood in yoga. It is not necessary to raise Kundalini to go to samadhi for example. Why do you think Patanjali does not talk about it in his Yoga Sutras? Don’t forget, hatha yoga and pranayama are late inventions. But yoga is talked about in the Bhagavad Gita. Also, when people talk about raising Kundalini, they can mean entirely different things. Much to my astonishment, as a hatha yogi, I discovered people that refer to raising Kundalini have NO superconscious ecstatic experience when they do this. What they are talking about is the gradual permanent (more or less) ascent of Kundalini energy residing predominantly in higher chakras. If something does go wrong you will need a guru to bail your butt out. It can take years for problems to go away and it can kill you. No doctor can diagnois what is wrong. They can determine what is wrong but not what to do about it except band-aid it maybe with drugs to allow you to sleep for instance or tranquilizers. I have to include this warning because there are a lot of idiots out there that totally deny Kundalini is dangerous (foremost from Kundalini Yoga – where as I said, raising Kundalini is the safest means I know but there is no dramatic superconscious ecstatic experience). Because raising Kundalini In Kundalini Yoga has no ecstatic supreconscious they falsely believe there is no such thing. But that is the ignorance of Kundalini Yoga practitioners/their inexperience/knowledge of only Kundalini Yoga which is quite safe and again does not give rise to any ecstatic superconscious states. But it is not only practitioners of Kundalini Yoga that lack experience. Hatha yoga is full of people that practice for years doing something obviously bizzare and never finding Kundalini. My guess is that this is a good thing too. They are so foolish they believe all these sources are wrong.

Maybe calling them ‘idiots’ is a bit strong. Just because someone doesn’t know a certain thing doesn’t make him/her an idiot, but rather ignorant. I assume knowledge is availible for those who seek it, but the ability to see the real information from the midless blabbering is clearsight, and few people possess that. Throughout my time of seeking I’ve seen a lot of things, especially in the esoteric circles of the internet, and in the beginning I was truly lost about what was what. People have a tendency to rather talk than listen. To know what one talks about one must do a lot of listening. — Nosforit
1. Living — Online — Corrupt practices

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The entire issue of Kundalini is among the most misunderstood in yoga.   It is not necessary to raise Kundalini to go to samadhi for example.   Why do you think Patanjali does not talk about it in his Yoga Sutras? [...] I figure this is the same reason Iyenger doesn’t mention it much – because they had little personal experience of it. It appears that Kundalini experiences often happen relatively early in development – or not at all.

All I can think of is doing something wrong. Don’t know what. And I have to keep asking myself how lucky was I? I thought it was like falling off a truck. Kundalini experiences are awakening experiences – and waking up is always more dramatic if you have been asleep for years.

Every time kundalini rises and samadhi is experienced it is dramatic bliss. What newgroup is it that these other people that know what I am talking about are? They simply have an aversion to Newsgroups period. Mike Dubbeld – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — reply.

Response:

  The entire issue of Kundalini is among the most misunderstood in yoga.   It is not necessary to raise Kundalini to go to samadhi for example.   Why do you think Patanjali does not talk about it in his Yoga Sutras? [...] I figure this is the same reason Iyenger doesn’t mention it much – because they had little personal experience of it. It appears that Kundalini experiences often happen relatively early in development – or not at all. Kundalini experiences are awakening experiences – and waking up is always more dramatic if you have been asleep for years. —

Response:

The entire issue of Kundalini is among the most misunderstood in yoga. It is not necessary to raise Kundalini to go to samadhi for example. Why do you think Patanjali does not talk about it in his Yoga Sutras? Don’t forget, hatha yoga and pranayama are late inventions. But yoga is talked about in the Bhagavad Gita. Also, when people talk about raising Kundalini, they can mean entirely different things. Much to my astonishment, as a hatha yogi, I discovered people that refer to raising Kundalini have NO superconscious ecstatic experience when they do this. What they are talking about is the gradual permanent (more or less) ascent of Kundalini energy residing predominantly in higher chakras. If something does go wrong you will need a guru to bail your butt out. It can take years for problems to go away and it can kill you. No doctor can diagnois what is wrong. They can determine what is wrong but not what to do about it except band-aid it maybe with drugs to allow you to sleep for instance or tranquilizers. I have to include this warning because there are a lot of idiots out there that totally deny Kundalini is dangerous (foremost from Kundalini Yoga – where as I said, raising Kundalini is the safest means I know but there is no dramatic superconscious ecstatic experience). Because raising Kundalini In Kundalini Yoga has no ecstatic supreconscious they falsely believe there is no such thing. But that is the ignorance of Kundalini Yoga practitioners/their inexperience/knowledge of only Kundalini Yoga which is quite safe and again does not give rise to any ecstatic superconscious states. But it is not only practitioners of Kundalini Yoga that lack experience. Hatha yoga is full of people that practice for years doing something obviously bizzare and never finding Kundalini. My guess is that this is a good thing too. They are so foolish they believe all these sources are wrong. Kundalini Disasters/When things go wrong where to look—- Lee Sannella M.D. The Kundalini Experience — http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0941255298/ref=ase_intuiti onnetwork/102-5443815-9312902?v=glance&s=books Lee Sannella is the worlds foremost authority on when things go wrong with Kundalini from a Medical Doctor’s point of view. Kundalini Support Forum Kundalini Survival and Support http://kundalini-support.com/index-6.html has Lee Sanella M.D. http://kundalini-support.com/index-5.html http://kundalini-support.com/index-3.html http://kundalini-support.com/index-4.html When the Serpent Bites a case story—- http://kundalini-support.com/serpent.html Kundalini Discussion—- http://www.kundalini-gateway.org/klist/k1998/k98d00225.html Kundalini Resource List — http://www.kundalini-gateway.org/cybrary.html Kundalini and hallucinogenic drugs— http://www.csp.org/practices/entheogens/docs/kundalini_survey.html Kundalini and Neuroscience/the brain—- http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ECITkundaliniframeset.htm Gopi Krishna Living with Kundalini Amazon– http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0877739471/002-6481623-107 6853?v=glance Gopi Krishna Living with Kundalini a short piece on– http://www.tearsofllorona.com/gopi.html

Response:

Question:

Try this article at Yoga.com What kind of Yoga is Right for You? found at http://www.yoga.com/ydc/enlighten/enlighten_document.asp?ID=136&secti… It might help a person new to yoga understand different styles. Shannon B.

Response:

Try this article at Yoga.com What kind of Yoga is Right for You? found at http://www.yoga.com/ydc/enlighten/enlighten_document.asp?ID=136&secti… It might help a person new to yoga understand different styles. Shannon B.

Can i ask why it’s so inportant to drink water? I know that you get dehidrated if yuo dont but i get this fealing there is sumthing more inportant than that or am i looking for sumthing that is not there?

Response:

Try this article at Yoga.com What kind of Yoga is Right for You? found at

http://www.yoga.com/ydc/enlighten/enlighten_document.asp?ID=136&secti… t=0 It might help a person new to yoga understand different styles. Shannon B. Can i ask why it’s so inportant to drink water? I know that you get dehidrated if yuo dont but i get this fealing there is sumthing more inportant than that or am i looking for sumthing that is not there?

Yes, there is a lot more to water. But even the effects dehydration has on the human mind and body are astonishing. When you are thirsty you are allrerady dehydrated. Many diseases can be prevented, cured or at least relieved  through just drinking enough water. Some of the effects dehydration can have: fatigue, high blood pressure, metabolic diseases, disturbed brain functions, emotionality, raised risk of drug side effects, stress, depression, headaches, migaine, and many more… You must drink 2,5 liters water a day – if you live in a hot area it can be twice as much or more. And drink it regularily at least every 2 hours a bit. Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh recomended books on the topic (in german language): http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3924077835/ref=pd_sim_dp_3/302-… -4188009 http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3935767250/qid=1065046904/sr=8-… r_aps_prod_3_1/302-8577150-4188009

Response:

The kind of yoga class that i am thinking bout going to is called Iyengar will this kind bo alright for me? THank you for all your healp! Gaz

Yes brother, legitimate Iyengar-trained teachers can be of help to your condition.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Gaz, there are a lot of  "Yoga Types". A list of some of the more common Yoga paths you can find at the alt.yoga FAQ: http://altyoga.de.vu/ I recomend you try in the beginning some gentle Hatha Yoga with a good experienced and well trained teacher. Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh Hi all. I am wondering how meny types of yoga there is and what one would be best suted to me? I have a curviture in the smal of me spine and think that yoga will be good for it. I also want to develope my minde as well so what would you recomend? by for now Gaz The kind of yoga class that i am thinking bout going to is called Iyengar will this kind bo alright for me? THank you for all your healp! Gaz

Iyengar Yoga is well known. Mostly good teachers. Good theoretically trained teachers too. It is Hatha Yoga, sometimes very demanding. Be carefull to watch your limits and how you feel with the teacher. You cannot do much wrong with Iyengar Yoga beginners class. Enjoy! And drink enough water… Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh

Response:

Hi all. I am wondering how meny types of yoga there is and what one would be best suted to me? I have a curviture in the smal of me spine and think that yoga will be good for it. I also want to develope my minde as well so what would you recomend? by for now Gaz

Response:

Hello Gaz, there are a lot of  "Yoga Types". A list of some of the more common Yoga paths you can find at the alt.yoga FAQ: http://altyoga.de.vu/ I recomend you try in the beginning some gentle Hatha Yoga with a good experienced and well trained teacher. Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all. I am wondering how meny types of yoga there is and what one would be best suted to me? I have a curviture in the smal of me spine and think that yoga will be good for it. I also want to develope my minde as well so what would you recomend? by for now Gaz

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Gaz, there are a lot of  "Yoga Types". A list of some of the more common Yoga paths you can find at the alt.yoga FAQ: http://altyoga.de.vu/ I recomend you try in the beginning some gentle Hatha Yoga with a good experienced and well trained teacher. Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh Hi all. I am wondering how meny types of yoga there is and what one would be best suted to me? I have a curviture in the smal of me spine and think that yoga will be good for it. I also want to develope my minde as well so what would you recomend? by for now Gaz

The kind of yoga class that i am thinking bout going to is called Iyengar will this kind bo alright for me? THank you for all your healp! Gaz

Response:

Question:

<snip good advice Where are you? Xena makes me wonder if you are a New Zealander… Paula

Thanks for the input, Paula! I will start looking into classes. I’m in Southern California, but I wish I were in New Zealand. One of my closest friends is from there, although she’s working in Brisbane right now. Xena is one of my role models and I like to draw from that strength! I also like to burn villages and torture others occasionally too. Hugs to you! -GX I will quit smoking in 1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes and 49 seconds. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cool, Paula! I’ve been on and off with Yoga (I have a video tape) and I was also injured in a car accident back in March. I wasn’t as seriously injured as you, but I’m just now tapering off my pain meds. I’ve really been thinking about doing Yoga again, but I’m afraid of straining myself (back and neck).  Any suggestions/poses to start me off with again? Congrats on your meter! Battle On! -GoddessXena I will quit smoking in 2 days, 58 minutes and 18 seconds. Thank you all for those lovely messages of support. I really did appreciate them, feel very blessed to have found this place and all the lovely support. Yoga. Well, five years ago I had a wee accident, my car vs a small truck headon, and then just when that was all over the car behind me decided to join in as well! I was really lucky, and came out of the accident with fairly moderate injuries (neanderthal forehead from breaking the steering wheel with my forehead, broken collarbone, severely bruised sternum, knees, hands and hip) Woo hoo I thought. Then…the pain started…neck, shoulder, collarbone, back, hip…four years of physio, chiropractor. Living on anti inflammatories and pain killers. Getting fatter, smoking more. Waking every day with pain. Depression, smoking more, feeling like my life was over and this was how it would be. Spending major bucks on treatments, living in the bath to try and soothe the pain. Did I mention smoking more? Last year, I started yoga, somewhat sceptically. 18 months later, I have no pain (unless I do something silly like gardening all day, or carrying something really heavy). My movements are freer, I can touch my toes, I feel better…and after a class I sleep like a baby. I can breathe easier, and the smoking stopping is helping that even more. I feel stronger, and if I do get any pain, I know the yoga pose to ease it. I cannot recommend yoga enough. Really. And if you do go to a class, take the pose that is the hardest for you and make it your homework for a week. You will be amazed. Paula One week, two days, 11 hours, 13 minutes and 36 seconds. 142 cigarettes not smoked, saving $64.26. Life saved: 11 hours, 50 minutes.

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oh dear binnie! that is truly blonde…hehe… LOL…thanks for the morning smile! paula

Response:

Thank you all for those lovely messages of support. I really did appreciate them, feel very blessed to have found this place and all the lovely support. Yoga. Well, five years ago I had a wee accident, my car vs a small truck headon, and then just when that was all over the car behind me decided to join in as well! I was really lucky, and came out of the accident with fairly moderate injuries (neanderthal forehead from breaking the steering wheel with my forehead, broken collarbone, severely bruised sternum, knees, hands and hip) Woo hoo I thought. Then…the pain started…neck, shoulder, collarbone, back, hip…four years of physio, chiropractor. Living on anti inflammatories and pain killers. Getting fatter, smoking more. Waking every day with pain. Depression, smoking more, feeling like my life was over and this was how it would be. Spending major bucks on treatments, living in the bath to try and soothe the pain. Did I mention smoking more? Last year, I started yoga, somewhat sceptically. 18 months later, I have no pain (unless I do something silly like gardening all day, or carrying something really heavy). My movements are freer, I can touch my toes, I feel better…and after a class I sleep like a baby. I can breathe easier, and the smoking stopping is helping that even more. I feel stronger, and if I do get any pain, I know the yoga pose to ease it. I cannot recommend yoga enough. Really. And if you do go to a class, take the pose that is the hardest for you and make it your homework for a week. You will be amazed. Paula One week, two days, 11 hours, 13 minutes and 36 seconds. 142 cigarettes not smoked, saving $64.26. Life saved: 11 hours, 50 minutes.

Response:

Dance, baby, dance!! Lane, DOF and a minute, f3as3 Smoke-free: long enough pal. Cigs not smoked: a ton. Money saved:  a truckload. Read my Diary of a Quitter: http://www.bluethunder.org/quitterhome.html We cannot all do great things, but we can do small things with great love.     – Mother Theresa — 2y 1m 1w 4d 12:14  smoke-free, 30,908 cigs not smoked, $6,181.60 saved, 3m 2w 2d 7:40  life saved

: Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I : feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do : our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! : : Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! : Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we : will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! : : Paula : One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not : smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes. : : :

Response:

Last year, I started yoga, somewhat sceptically. 18 months later, I have no I cannot recommend yoga enough. Really. And if you do go to a class, take the pose that is the hardest for you and make it your homework for a week. You will be amazed. Paula One week, two days, 11 hours, 13 minutes and 36 seconds. 142 cigarettes not smoked, saving $64.26. Life saved: 11 hours, 50 minutes.

My Uncle of many too much years and heart by-passes has gottin into Kim Chee"? (Not the rotten cabbage). He is now like 78 and TEACHING it on a college campus to 20 yr olds and he look GREAT! 5 years of it and he’s like the master. O bye the way he’s in Bath, Tom. (That’s Maine talk) ayyahhaaa. Craig Watts, sfb HOF

Response:

Hope for us all then huh? Would love a few 20 year olds in my class <eg… 20 year old guys that is Paula

Response:

Tai Chi, by any chance?

Yes, Kristen. Thanks for the help. Craig Watts, sfb HOF

Response:

for that matter.  Got it?  Good!  Sheesh. Kim the innocent

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last year, I started yoga, somewhat sceptically. 18 months later, I have no I cannot recommend yoga enough. Really. And if you do go to a class, take the pose that is the hardest for you and make it your homework for a week. You will be amazed. Paula One week, two days, 11 hours, 13 minutes and 36 seconds. 142 cigarettes not smoked, saving $64.26. Life saved: 11 hours, 50 minutes. My Uncle of many too much years and heart by-passes has gottin into Kim Chee"? (Not the rotten cabbage). He is now like 78 and TEACHING it on a college campus to 20 yr olds and he look GREAT! 5 years of it and he’s like the master. O bye the way he’s in Bath, Tom. (That’s Maine talk) ayyahhaaa. Craig Watts, sfb HOF

Response:

Cool, Paula! I’ve been on and off with Yoga (I have a video tape) and I was also injured in a car accident back in March. I wasn’t as seriously injured as you, but I’m just now tapering off my pain meds. I’ve really been thinking about doing Yoga again, but I’m afraid of straining myself (back and neck).  Any suggestions/poses to start me off with again? Congrats on your meter! Battle On! -GoddessXena I will quit smoking in 2 days, 58 minutes and 18 seconds. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you all for those lovely messages of support. I really did appreciate them, feel very blessed to have found this place and all the lovely support. Yoga. Well, five years ago I had a wee accident, my car vs a small truck headon, and then just when that was all over the car behind me decided to join in as well! I was really lucky, and came out of the accident with fairly moderate injuries (neanderthal forehead from breaking the steering wheel with my forehead, broken collarbone, severely bruised sternum, knees, hands and hip) Woo hoo I thought. Then…the pain started…neck, shoulder, collarbone, back, hip…four years of physio, chiropractor. Living on anti inflammatories and pain killers. Getting fatter, smoking more. Waking every day with pain. Depression, smoking more, feeling like my life was over and this was how it would be. Spending major bucks on treatments, living in the bath to try and soothe the pain. Did I mention smoking more? Last year, I started yoga, somewhat sceptically. 18 months later, I have no pain (unless I do something silly like gardening all day, or carrying something really heavy). My movements are freer, I can touch my toes, I feel better…and after a class I sleep like a baby. I can breathe easier, and the smoking stopping is helping that even more. I feel stronger, and if I do get any pain, I know the yoga pose to ease it. I cannot recommend yoga enough. Really. And if you do go to a class, take the pose that is the hardest for you and make it your homework for a week. You will be amazed. Paula One week, two days, 11 hours, 13 minutes and 36 seconds. 142 cigarettes not smoked, saving $64.26. Life saved: 11 hours, 50 minutes.

Response:

Hey Paula! It was great meeting you tonight.  Good luck with your quit  Tell me more about the yoga, ok?  I’d like to start doing something like that. Joy 9m2w+

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

Response:

One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not

smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes. Way to go Paula!!!!!  You’ve made it through Hell week!!  Keep on keeping on!!!!! Pat S One month, 9 hours, 24 minutes and 50 seconds. 627 cigarettes not smoked, saving $119.29. Life saved: 2 days, 4 hours, 15 minutes.

Response:

You are doing great Paula, good attitude & everything! I would think yoga would be most helpful. Amy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

Response:

Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough!

You’re doing great, Paula!  Just keep up the enthusiasm and actively seeking support, plus staying busy!  It all helps so much!  Wish I’d have run into you in the chat room but I was otherwise occupied much of the night (see ‘Blast You Joe_D…’ post for details) :^( Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier!

Speaking of blonde jokes?  My sister (who is blonde NOW;^) sent me an email today asking why my son, who is 19 and soon to be a father, didn’t get his female Lab dog spayed, since she just surprised them with 10 puppies last night!!!  "That’s the FIRST thing a responsible pet owner should do is get their pet spayed, etc…" I just HAD to write her back with, "What??? Are you BLONDE???!!! These kids are about to be parents! Do you REALLY think they would take responsibility for the dog getting pregnant when they didn’t take responsibility for themselves? LOL!!!" Oh, people just crack me up!  (When they’re not pissing me off, that is. ) Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

*hugs* —    BinnieBee – Proudly a non-smoker for over 10 Months Now!        %%      (—-)     ( __< )     ^^ ~~ ^^     ~f3as3~ x-no:archive?  Of course!  I want to entertain my future grandkids a-Googling these old posts! They’ll say what a spicey old biddy Granny BinnieBee was!

Response:

Xena… Go to a class to start with. It may cost a little (mine are $10 per class), but you need the expert support first of all. There are a few different types of yoga, I do Iyengar yoga which concentrates on alignment and uses props (bolsters, blocks and straps) to make it easier. When you go to the class tell the instructor about your injuries. Tell her where it hurts and what you are scared of. Any instructor worth his/her salt will ask you about injuries anyway. My yoga studio has classes called "restorative yoga" which is very gentle. If you can track one down that would be a good place to start. And whatever class you do…don’t do anything that hurts! Back off, don’t be ashamed to back off. Use your video tape but be careful of doing things that feel too much. Where are you? Xena makes me wonder if you are a New Zealander… Paula

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cool, Paula! I’ve been on and off with Yoga (I have a video tape) and I was also injured in a car accident back in March. I wasn’t as seriously injured as you, but I’m just now tapering off my pain meds. I’ve really been thinking about doing Yoga again, but I’m afraid of straining myself (back and neck).  Any suggestions/poses to start me off with again? Congrats on your meter! Battle On! -GoddessXena I will quit smoking in 2 days, 58 minutes and 18 seconds. Thank you all for those lovely messages of support. I really did appreciate them, feel very blessed to have found this place and all the lovely support. Yoga. Well, five years ago I had a wee accident, my car vs a small truck headon, and then just when that was all over the car behind me decided to join in as well! I was really lucky, and came out of the accident with fairly moderate injuries (neanderthal forehead from breaking the steering wheel with my forehead, broken collarbone, severely bruised sternum, knees, hands and hip) Woo hoo I thought. Then…the pain started…neck, shoulder, collarbone, back, hip…four years of physio, chiropractor. Living on anti inflammatories and pain killers. Getting fatter, smoking more. Waking every day with pain. Depression, smoking more, feeling like my life was over and this was how it would be. Spending major bucks on treatments, living in the bath to try and soothe the pain. Did I mention smoking more? Last year, I started yoga, somewhat sceptically. 18 months later, I have no pain (unless I do something silly like gardening all day, or carrying something really heavy). My movements are freer, I can touch my toes, I feel better…and after a class I sleep like a baby. I can breathe easier, and the smoking stopping is helping that even more. I feel stronger, and if I do get any pain, I know the yoga pose to ease it. I cannot recommend yoga enough. Really. And if you do go to a class, take the pose that is the hardest for you and make it your homework for a week. You will be amazed. Paula One week, two days, 11 hours, 13 minutes and 36 seconds. 142 cigarettes not smoked, saving $64.26. Life saved: 11 hours, 50 minutes.

Response:

Damn, I missed it!!!! You are looking great Paula!  This quit time is going to fly by!!! With hope and heart, Kathleen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

Response:

Hey Paula, one week is awsome, you have all reasons to be proud off. Now it does geat easier. I think the first week is the worse. That’s why it is called "Hell week". Keep it up. Carmen Optimism is the best weapon – We can do it and We will do it. Three weeks, two days, 7 hours, 32 minutes and 18 seconds. 815 cigarettes not smoked, saving $212.16. Life saved: 2 days, 19 hours, 55 minutes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

Response:

Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

Response:

Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

Great to see ya doing so well!  Keep at it, Paula… Sally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

Response:

Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

Great to see ya doing so well!  Keep at it, Paula… Sally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough!

You’re doing great, Paula!  Just keep up the enthusiasm and actively seeking support, plus staying busy!  It all helps so much!  Wish I’d have run into you in the chat room but I was otherwise occupied much of the night (see ‘Blast You Joe_D…’ post for details) :^( Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier!

Speaking of blonde jokes?  My sister (who is blonde NOW;^) sent me an email today asking why my son, who is 19 and soon to be a father, didn’t get his female Lab dog spayed, since she just surprised them with 10 puppies last night!!!  "That’s the FIRST thing a responsible pet owner should do is get their pet spayed, etc…" I just HAD to write her back with, "What??? Are you BLONDE???!!! These kids are about to be parents! Do you REALLY think they would take responsibility for the dog getting pregnant when they didn’t take responsibility for themselves? LOL!!!" Oh, people just crack me up!  (When they’re not pissing me off, that is. ) Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

*hugs* —    BinnieBee – Proudly a non-smoker for over 10 Months Now!        %%      (—-)     ( __< )     ^^ ~~ ^^     ~f3as3~ x-no:archive?  Of course!  I want to entertain my future grandkids a-Googling these old posts! They’ll say what a spicey old biddy Granny BinnieBee was!

Response:

Damn, I missed it!!!! You are looking great Paula!  This quit time is going to fly by!!! With hope and heart, Kathleen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

Response:

Hey Paula, one week is awsome, you have all reasons to be proud off. Now it does geat easier. I think the first week is the worse. That’s why it is called "Hell week". Keep it up. Carmen Optimism is the best weapon – We can do it and We will do it. Three weeks, two days, 7 hours, 32 minutes and 18 seconds. 815 cigarettes not smoked, saving $212.16. Life saved: 2 days, 19 hours, 55 minutes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

Response:

Hey Paula! It was great meeting you tonight.  Good luck with your quit  Tell me more about the yoga, ok?  I’d like to start doing something like that. Joy 9m2w+

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

Response:

One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not

smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes. Way to go Paula!!!!!  You’ve made it through Hell week!!  Keep on keeping on!!!!! Pat S One month, 9 hours, 24 minutes and 50 seconds. 627 cigarettes not smoked, saving $119.29. Life saved: 2 days, 4 hours, 15 minutes.

Response:

You are doing great Paula, good attitude & everything! I would think yoga would be most helpful. Amy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! Paula One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes.

Response:

oh dear binnie! that is truly blonde…hehe… LOL…thanks for the morning smile! paula

Response:

Thank you all for those lovely messages of support. I really did appreciate them, feel very blessed to have found this place and all the lovely support. Yoga. Well, five years ago I had a wee accident, my car vs a small truck headon, and then just when that was all over the car behind me decided to join in as well! I was really lucky, and came out of the accident with fairly moderate injuries (neanderthal forehead from breaking the steering wheel with my forehead, broken collarbone, severely bruised sternum, knees, hands and hip) Woo hoo I thought. Then…the pain started…neck, shoulder, collarbone, back, hip…four years of physio, chiropractor. Living on anti inflammatories and pain killers. Getting fatter, smoking more. Waking every day with pain. Depression, smoking more, feeling like my life was over and this was how it would be. Spending major bucks on treatments, living in the bath to try and soothe the pain. Did I mention smoking more? Last year, I started yoga, somewhat sceptically. 18 months later, I have no pain (unless I do something silly like gardening all day, or carrying something really heavy). My movements are freer, I can touch my toes, I feel better…and after a class I sleep like a baby. I can breathe easier, and the smoking stopping is helping that even more. I feel stronger, and if I do get any pain, I know the yoga pose to ease it. I cannot recommend yoga enough. Really. And if you do go to a class, take the pose that is the hardest for you and make it your homework for a week. You will be amazed. Paula One week, two days, 11 hours, 13 minutes and 36 seconds. 142 cigarettes not smoked, saving $64.26. Life saved: 11 hours, 50 minutes.

Response:

Dance, baby, dance!! Lane, DOF and a minute, f3as3 Smoke-free: long enough pal. Cigs not smoked: a ton. Money saved:  a truckload. Read my Diary of a Quitter: http://www.bluethunder.org/quitterhome.html We cannot all do great things, but we can do small things with great love.     – Mother Theresa — 2y 1m 1w 4d 12:14  smoke-free, 30,908 cigs not smoked, $6,181.60 saved, 3m 2w 2d 7:40  life saved

: Having spent practically all day posting and hanging out in the chatroom, I : feel good! Strong, energised and ready for my yoga class…and when we do : our yoga breathing maybe I won’t hack and cough! : : Thanks for all the encouragement, fun, and yes even the blonde jokes! : Hopefully tonight will be a night of easy cravings for all of us, and we : will be back tomorrow stronger, healthier and happier! : : Paula : One week, one day, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 34 seconds. 131 cigarettes not : smoked, saving $59.60. Life saved: 10 hours, 55 minutes. : : :

Response:

Last year, I started yoga, somewhat sceptically. 18 months later, I have no I cannot recommend yoga enough. Really. And if you do go to a class, take the pose that is the hardest for you and make it your homework for a week. You will be amazed. Paula One week, two days, 11 hours, 13 minutes and 36 seconds. 142 cigarettes not smoked, saving $64.26. Life saved: 11 hours, 50 minutes.

My Uncle of many too much years and heart by-passes has gottin into Kim Chee"? (Not the rotten cabbage). He is now like 78 and TEACHING it on a college campus to 20 yr olds and he look GREAT! 5 years of it and he’s like the master. O bye the way he’s in Bath, Tom. (That’s Maine talk) ayyahhaaa. Craig Watts, sfb HOF

Response:

Hope for us all then huh? Would love a few 20 year olds in my class <eg… 20 year old guys that is Paula

Response:

Tai Chi, by any chance?

Yes, Kristen. Thanks for the help. Craig Watts, sfb HOF

Response:

for that matter.  Got it?  Good!  Sheesh. Kim the innocent

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last year, I started yoga, somewhat sceptically. 18 months later, I have no I cannot recommend yoga enough. Really. And if you do go to a class, take the pose that is the hardest for you and make it your homework for a week. You will be amazed. Paula One week, two days, 11 hours, 13 minutes and 36 seconds. 142 cigarettes not smoked, saving $64.26. Life saved: 11 hours, 50 minutes. My Uncle of many too much years and heart by-passes has gottin into Kim Chee"? (Not the rotten cabbage). He is now like 78 and TEACHING it on a college campus to 20 yr olds and he look GREAT! 5 years of it and he’s like the master. O bye the way he’s in Bath, Tom. (That’s Maine talk) ayyahhaaa. Craig Watts, sfb HOF

Response:

Cool, Paula! I’ve been on and off with Yoga (I have a video tape) and I was also injured in a car accident back in March. I wasn’t as seriously injured as you, but I’m just now tapering off my pain meds. I’ve really been thinking about doing Yoga again, but I’m afraid of straining myself (back and neck).  Any suggestions/poses to start me off with again? Congrats on your meter! Battle On! -GoddessXena I will quit smoking in 2 days, 58 minutes and 18 seconds. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you all for those lovely messages of support. I really did appreciate them, feel very blessed to have found this place and all the lovely support. Yoga. Well, five years ago I had a wee accident, my car vs a small truck headon, and then just when that was all over the car behind me decided to join in as well! I was really lucky, and came out of the accident with fairly moderate injuries (neanderthal forehead from breaking the steering wheel with my forehead, broken collarbone, severely bruised sternum, knees, hands and hip) Woo hoo I thought. Then…the pain started…neck, shoulder, collarbone, back, hip…four years of physio, chiropractor. Living on anti inflammatories and pain killers. Getting fatter, smoking more. Waking every day with pain. Depression, smoking more, feeling like my life was over and this was how it would be. Spending major bucks on treatments, living in the bath to try and soothe the pain. Did I mention smoking more? Last year, I started yoga, somewhat sceptically. 18 months later, I have no pain (unless I do something silly like gardening all day, or carrying something really heavy). My movements are freer, I can touch my toes, I feel better…and after a class I sleep like a baby. I can breathe easier, and the smoking stopping is helping that even more. I feel stronger, and if I do get any pain, I know the yoga pose to ease it. I cannot recommend yoga enough. Really. And if you do go to a class, take the pose that is the hardest for you and make it your homework for a week. You will be amazed. Paula One week, two days, 11 hours, 13 minutes and 36 seconds. 142 cigarettes not smoked, saving $64.26. Life saved: 11 hours, 50 minutes.

Response:

Xena… Go to a class to start with. It may cost a little (mine are $10 per class), but you need the expert support first of all. There are a few different types of yoga, I do Iyengar yoga which concentrates on alignment and uses props (bolsters, blocks and straps) to make it easier. When you go to the class tell the instructor about your injuries. Tell her where it hurts and what you are scared of. Any instructor worth his/her salt will ask you about injuries anyway. My yoga studio has classes called "restorative yoga" which is very gentle. If you can track one down that would be a good place to start. And whatever class you do…don’t do anything that hurts! Back off, don’t be ashamed to back off. Use your video tape but be careful of doing things that feel too much. Where are you? Xena makes me wonder if you are a New Zealander… Paula

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cool, Paula! I’ve been on and off with Yoga (I have a video tape) and I was also injured in a car accident back in March. I wasn’t as seriously injured as you, but I’m just now tapering off my pain meds. I’ve really been thinking about doing Yoga again, but I’m afraid of straining myself (back and neck).  Any suggestions/poses to start me off with again? Congrats on your meter! Battle On! -GoddessXena I will quit smoking in 2 days, 58 minutes and 18 seconds. Thank you all for those lovely messages of support. I really did appreciate them, feel very blessed to have found this place and all the lovely support. Yoga. Well, five years ago I had a wee accident, my car vs a small truck headon, and then just when that was all over the car behind me decided to join in as well! I was really lucky, and came out of the accident with fairly moderate injuries (neanderthal forehead from breaking the steering wheel with my forehead, broken collarbone, severely bruised sternum, knees, hands and hip) Woo hoo I thought. Then…the pain started…neck, shoulder, collarbone, back, hip…four years of physio, chiropractor. Living on anti inflammatories and pain killers. Getting fatter, smoking more. Waking every day with pain. Depression, smoking more, feeling like my life was over and this was how it would be. Spending major bucks on treatments, living in the bath to try and soothe the pain. Did I mention smoking more? Last year, I started yoga, somewhat sceptically. 18 months later, I have no pain (unless I do something silly like gardening all day, or carrying something really heavy). My movements are freer, I can touch my toes, I feel better…and after a class I sleep like a baby. I can breathe easier, and the smoking stopping is helping that even more. I feel stronger, and if I do get any pain, I know the yoga pose to ease it. I cannot recommend yoga enough. Really. And if you do go to a class, take the pose that is the hardest for you and make it your homework for a week. You will be amazed. Paula One week, two days, 11 hours, 13 minutes and 36 seconds. 142 cigarettes not smoked, saving $64.26. Life saved: 11 hours, 50 minutes.

Response:

<snip good advice Where are you? Xena makes me wonder if you are a New Zealander… Paula

Thanks for the input, Paula! I will start looking into classes. I’m in Southern California, but I wish I were in New Zealand. One of my closest friends is from there, although she’s working in Brisbane right now. Xena is one of my role models and I like to draw from that strength! I also like to burn villages and torture others occasionally too. Hugs to you! -GX I will quit smoking in 1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes and 49 seconds. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cool, Paula! I’ve been on and off with Yoga (I have a video tape) and I was also injured in a car accident back in March. I wasn’t as seriously injured as you, but I’m just now tapering off my pain meds. I’ve really been thinking about doing Yoga again, but I’m afraid of straining myself (back and neck).  Any suggestions/poses to start me off with again? Congrats on your meter! Battle On! -GoddessXena I will quit smoking in 2 days, 58 minutes and 18 seconds. Thank you all for those lovely messages of support. I really did appreciate them, feel very blessed to have found this place and all the lovely support. Yoga. Well, five years ago I had a wee accident, my car vs a small truck headon, and then just when that was all over the car behind me decided to join in as well! I was really lucky, and came out of the accident with fairly moderate injuries (neanderthal forehead from breaking the steering wheel with my forehead, broken collarbone, severely bruised sternum, knees, hands and hip) Woo hoo I thought. Then…the pain started…neck, shoulder, collarbone, back, hip…four years of physio, chiropractor. Living on anti inflammatories and pain killers. Getting fatter, smoking more. Waking every day with pain. Depression, smoking more, feeling like my life was over and this was how it would be. Spending major bucks on treatments, living in the bath to try and soothe the pain. Did I mention smoking more? Last year, I started yoga, somewhat sceptically. 18 months later, I have no pain (unless I do something silly like gardening all day, or carrying something really heavy). My movements are freer, I can touch my toes, I feel better…and after a class I sleep like a baby. I can breathe easier, and the smoking stopping is helping that even more. I feel stronger, and if I do get any pain, I know the yoga pose to ease it. I cannot recommend yoga enough. Really. And if you do go to a class, take the pose that is the hardest for you and make it your homework for a week. You will be amazed. Paula One week, two days, 11 hours, 13 minutes and 36 seconds. 142 cigarettes not smoked, saving $64.26. Life saved: 11 hours, 50 minutes.

Response:

Question:

*Thats fine. You can believe whatever. Tis a fact, about hypnosis, but yes it is my belief that one cannot completely separate the two if they ritualistically practice it. *** But the truth is that you have not done either so you are in no position to say. None of this stuff – and I do mean none of it – means beans without experience. *** I haven’t drown yet either, but I’m certainly in a position to say thanks to the evidence on hand that hypnosis does blur fact and fantasy.  This is why hypnosis is not allowed in most courts… I have experiences that approximate drowning, and quieting of the mind.  It is true I cannot compare my experiences to yours. *** There is no words/some logical debate/an idea of I’m right and you’re wrong. You only talk like that because you simply know no other. Go hypnotise someone then come back and tell me about it. Don’t specualte with me. There are any number of Monday morning quarterbacks. Play the game and talk to me. Don’t speculate endlessly but this yeah that. Look at Western philosophy. It is a mess. It is a hodge poge collection of unrelated expressions with no underlying rhyme or reason/theme. It takes you nowhere fast. *** The west is a hodge podge for a reason, the focus of the individual…East is more organized, the focus of the community.  Do not mistake consensus with correctness.  I do however, prefer Eastern philosophy… mainly because of the Bible being silly. Each way has its strengths…and weaknesses. *** You read it and walk away more confused and dazed than before you looked at it. That is because like you – they did not play the game. They speculated. As such there Ivory tower philosophys were junk. Never did amount to a hill of beans. I know what hypnosis is from hands on experience. I do not need anyone sitting on the sidelines telling me anything. *** Of course you don’t need it…but it wouldn’t hurt. And if you prefer to draw lines so that we are on the sidelines, indeed draw up the entire game and isolate your views onto the field of your mind. Its a little strange though, I was debating with someone who was being an armchair politician…saying how things are so screwed up and how easy it would be to make the world a better place.  However, in this conversation his position was weak because he has the knowledge of their future (our past), that people at the time did not have…and he was allowing his knowledge of the past to cloud his assessment. *** One does not publish a book ‘100 Ways to Cook Fish’ unless they have cooked a lot of fish. Like I said – hypnosis is a tool for controlling the subconscious mind. Yoga is about mind control. I have been hypnotized before and hypnotized. Concentration and meditation are nothing even remotely close. In a state of contemplation you are so intensely alive you can not move. *** I have always associated life with movement, however I do experience that…after I read a good book, have to rethink something, or after taking some mind altering substances…even admiring the uncompromising beauty of nature…another trigger of religious experiences, and the combination of the latter two is quite a trip. *** It is an exhilarating experience and the mind is not part of it. In hypnosis the mind is simply stilled. This is not my invention. I do not need to defend it. Go get some books on Raja Yoga and find out for yourself what the deal is.  Do a search on the web for ‘Meditation and Mantras’ or ‘Raja Yoga’ by Vivekananda. This useless back and forth debate is a waste. *** Yes, I am not particularly keen on learning the induction process of Raja Yoga, I certainly agree with the philosophies. — "Some foolish men declare that a Creator made the world. The doctrine that the world was created is ill-advised, and should be rejected. If God created the world, where was He before creation?…How could God have made the world without any raw material? If you say He made this first, and then the world, you are faced with an endless regression…Know that the world is uncreated, as time itself is, without beginning and end. And it is based on the principles…" – The Mahapurana (The Great Legend) Jinasena (India, ninth century)

Response:

My experiences are basically the same as those of Emily Dickinson. People rarely want to put faith in Living Masters.  My own Master used to quote Past Mystics often, and he did that for 38 years, and initiated some 1,200,000 souls.

in a life time when I do 30 million at a time.  You Master was nothing much.  He was a bump in the road on your way to me. Every Living Master faces the same difficulty with the people preferring to believe in Past Masters.

 The Bible says, "Moses gave you the law, but Jesus Christ came with grace and truth."  Moses was a Master, and he gave the same teachings.  The people in Christ’s time were believing in Moses, and the line of Mystics, which followed him. So, we have the same problem today.  The grace and truth, which includes opening the inner vision, always comes to us after we have followed a Living Master.

The soul.  It is a drop of spirituality, and when the soul has cast off the three bodies, and three minds, it shines with the light of twelve suns.

love was like a million billion trillion suns."  Or was that my poetry?  I forget.  It is all the same. There is only mind,mind is a function of the brain,so no spirit at all…

the awareness that is the witness inside at your center.  Pure attention which is pure love.  Think about it.

Response:

No Kundalini is responsible for all the physical body but indirectly. It is more accurate to say a physical body results from Her action. That action being the involution of soul into matter. At death you have left over desires. Every cause has an effect. These desires result in action by Kundalini to bring about a body suitable to have the desires manifested.

Nice. It is the profound wanting to be observed. Shakti needs Siva. And Siva needs Shakti. Consciousness wants experience. They are lovers always entwined. Quantum physics is facinating even with my small knowledge. Also holographic universe. -Seeking

Response:

*** Of course you know or maybe you do not know. The mind is not gross physical matter. The brain is gross physical matter. The connection between the two is accomplished by waves and energy. *** That’s fine with me. *** It is the interaction of the waves that one influences the other. Subtle matter which the mind is made of is not objective/can not be perceived by the senses. Neither can an electron. Neither can the center of the earth. *** Well where is the line?  A dust mite cannot really be sensed by the senses (except if you are allergic to their dander :’). Also, irregardless of our ability to directly sense an electron, it is there, doing its Quantum thang.  Virtual particles are detected indirectly… Besides, our senses are not objective and are still based on hunting and gathering food. (gross physical matter, pun intended) *** Subtle matter occupies the same space as gross matter at the same time. Physics is close on this matter – no pun intended. The riddle of the wave/particle nature of light and Quantum Mechanics hinges on this riddle. So do many other unexplainable phenomena. It is not my intention to convince you. It is easy to see by your questions that all of this is not only new but a little more than slightly bizare. *** To be honest…I was probing your knowledge. Which I find sufficient, indeed above mine. *** I do not blame you at all and furthermore thank you for remaining civil. *** Your welcome, I am usually civil to those who are in touch with reality, such as it is.  Unlike Michael Martin. *** More than a few just go blindly and wildly on the attack because their notion of reality appears to be under attack. It would be quite bizare to me if you believed any of this. People such as myself were not born yesterday. I am here to tell you that my background is in Electrical Engineering and there are numerous very famous physicists that do study even more bizare ideas. It is on that note that I invite you not to bother with all the junk above – but to get yourself some books on Quantum Mechanics/Physics and see for yourself the types of fairytales they are looking into. Many physicists – because of what QM tells them – are looking at Eastern ideas because some of the ideas from the East known thousands of years ago are showing up as true in QM  - ‘There is no Deep Reality’. I can provide numerous references on this account. *** I do have more than a passing interest in the subject and have recently read Quantum Reality…though I cannot find it and do not have my notes at hand :’(…which I would need to review and recompile in my mind before I would have much dialogue with you on the subject of QM’s and the multitude of theories and directions it has.  There are 8 main ones as I recall…which are based on 3 themes…but cannot remember. FYI:  I’m a big Feynman fan. BTW, which NG are you posting from?

Response:

*** Yeah I remember I did not bother to answer this guy cause I can see he is out to lunch. Ok here goes. You are right bothi. It is hypnosis. You use hypnosis to control the subconscious mind. That is what hypnotism is all about. Yoga – as is totally unknown to you – is about mind control. ***

We use yoga to control the conscious mind, first, then ultimately, the Astral Mind, and the Causal Mind.  We have to control three minds, if we hope to realize God. Yoga is a word which means to unite.  My Yoga — Surat Shabd Yoga — means the yoga which unites the Soul (Surat) to the Holy Spirit (Shabd).  When we have done that, then the Holy Spirit takes us to the Lord, himself.  This is BEYOND mind, so my yoga will not be pigeonholed to remain within the mind only, as you wrote above.  Just thought I would point that out, in case any seekers are reading this. My yoga controls the mind first, but then it goes beyond the mind. But how can one presume to be in control of it?

If we have control of it, then we can access the spiritual light and sound, at will. Hypnosis is known to blur the line between fantasy and reality.  I suppose you could argue that is what you want, since fantasy arrises from the subconscious.

Our subconscious is rooted in higher planes, which are more real than this plane.  Mystics say this world is not real, therefore it is a form of fantasy.  We have to follow the Masters, if we want to know the reality. I would argue consciousness interpretation of those images is unreliable at best.

Well, what would you suggest?  If you don’t want to accept that higher planes are more real than this world, what would you suggest?  You suggestion flies in the face of the teachings, and is antithetical to the teachings of all the Great Masters. If we try to rise up by our own efforts, without a Master to guide us, that WOULD be unreliable.  If we have a Master, he will conduct us to our True Home, however. Michael http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

Thats fine. You can believe whatever. But the truth is that you have not done either so you are in no position to say. None of this stuff – and I do mean none of it – means beans without experience. There is no words/some logical debate/an idea of I’m right and you’re wrong. You only talk like that because you simply know no other. Go hypnotise someone then come back and tell me about it. Don’t specualte with me. There are any number of Monday morning quarterbacks. Play the game and talk to me. Don’t speculate endlessly but this yeah that. Look at Western philosophy. It is a mess. It is a hodge poge collection of unrelated expressions with no underlying rhyme or reason/theme. It takes you nowhere fast. You read it and walk away more confused and dazed than before you looked at it. That is because like you – they did not play the game. They speculated. As such there Ivory tower philosophys were junk. Never did amount to a hill of beans. I know what hypnosis is from hands on experience. I do not need anyone sitting on the sidelines telling me anything. One does not publish a book ‘100 Ways to Cook Fish’ unless they have cooked a lot of fish. Like I said – hypnosis is a tool for controlling the subconscious mind. Yoga is about mind control. I have been hypnotized before and hypnotized. Concentration and meditation are nothing even remotely close. In a state of contemplation you are so intensely alive you can not move. It is an exhilarating experience and the mind is not part of it. In hypnosis the mind is simply stilled. This is not my invention. I do not need to defend it. Go get some books on Raja Yoga and find out for yourself what the deal is.  Do a search on the web for ‘Meditation and Mantras’ or ‘Raja Yoga’ by Vivekananda. This useless back and forth debate is a waste. I would argue consciousness interpretation of those images is unreliable at best.

You can’t argue anything because you do not know anything. If you did it came from your silly logical mind and not from experience. Mike Dubbeld

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *** Yeah I remember I did not bother to answer this guy cause I can see he is out to lunch. Ok here goes. You are right bothi. It is hypnosis. You use hypnosis to control the subconscious mind. That is what hypnotism is all about. Yoga – as is totally unknown to you – is about mind control. *** But how can one presume to be in control of it? Hypnosis is known to blur the line between fantasy and reality.  I suppose you could argue that is what you want, since fantasy arrises from the subconscious.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Michael: You are talking about the ideas of other people, I prefer to know your own ideas,and info,and knowledge, stories from some other people about death and spirit and this cannot be correct,unless we experience it,it is not our knowledge.It  the second or third hand pieces of stories. My experiences are basically the same as those of Emily Dickinson. People rarely want to put faith in Living Masters.  My own Master used to quote Past Mystics often, and he did that for 38 years, and initiated some 1,200,000 souls. Every Living Master faces the same difficulty with the people preferring to believe in Past Masters.  The Bible says, "Moses gave you the law, but Jesus Christ came with grace and truth."  Moses was a Master, and he gave the same teachings.  The people in Christ’s time were believing in Moses, and the line of Mystics, which followed him. So, we have the same problem today.  The grace and truth, which includes opening the inner vision, always comes to us after we have followed a Living Master. Which spirit you are talking about?Is that the one that Medical science shows, psyhcology,or the one that religious holy books talk? The soul.  It is a drop of spirituality, and when the soul has cast off the three bodies, and three minds, it shines with the light of twelve suns. There is only mind,mind is a function of the brain,so no spirit at all… In the beginning, soul had the control of mind, and mind had control of the body.  Now, due to ages of sinning, the situation is reversed. Perfect Masters teach us how to regain normalcy. No reincarnation neither… If you believe bible, can you explain the firsts humans, where is the reincarnation over there. Reincarnation is a fact.  If it has been thrown out of the Bible, it doesn’t mean that it is not true.  There are several mentions of a "second death," which I posted about recently.  We can only have a second death, if we have a second birth.  A second birth is a reincarnation.  We can’t take the Bible as a book of law. The ancient Greeks – Pythagoras/Plato/Parmenides Eleatic School – they also believed in transmigration of the soul.

That’s certainly true.  I consider Plato and Pythagoras to be Perfect Mystic Adepts, and naturally, they knew about reincarnation.  I’m not familiar, yet, with Parmenides. I had a number of references to reincarnation in the Bible but I lost them. Recently I was challenged on this. I believe the Bible was butchered to a large degree by literalists that simply could not grasp its mystical inner meanings.

Here’s one that probably refers to reincarnation, and transmigration of soul: Christ said, "He who has ears, to hear, let him hear.  There will be wailing, and gnashing of teeth."  The wailing could mean a punishment in Hell, after which the soul would be reincarnated in lower species. This is what happens, eventually, if we can’t have faith in the Master.  Yes, a lot of teachings have been altered in the Bible. Also heard that the only reason Revelation was left alone was because it was purposely coded secretly so that those who believed would know its meaning and a warning from St.John. (Apocalypse Unsealed/Dance of Ecstasy) but Western religion is an area I  don’t know that well.

Neither do I, but thanks for pointing this out.  Revelations has several references to the "second death." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These put people on hallucinations. HUH?  LOL  Could you explain what you mean? The most important is your own ideas, not some body else`s. Let us here your own experiences without giving grounds on other people… I’m ready to discuss them. The aim of YOGA is to be aware of, to get rid of all the conditioned minds,Meditation is the tool for this, but what you are talking is not meditation it is hypnosis, taht is conditioning… Compassionately, bothi Yeah I remember I did not bother to answer this guy cause I can see he is out to lunch. Ok here goes. You are right bothi. It is hypnosis. You use hypnosis to control the subconscious mind. That is what hypnotism is all about. Yoga – as is totally unknown to you – is about mind control. Not only does the conscious mind need to be controlled – the subconscious mind does also. A hypnotist however is considered a mere dabbler to a yogi. No one can control the mind better than a yogi. So hypnotic techniques are used to accomplish the task of bringing the mind under control. Since you know nothing about yoga as you imagine you do and I have to explain this to you – pay attention here- when through concentration the mind is brought still, the soul is able to manifest itself. It is through concentration and only through concentration that this comes about. That is why I come down so hard on your particular case – because you are totally clueless of this fact and yet you bandy about the word as if you had some sort of clue -you don’t. And worse is that you screw up so many other people with your non-understanding of the matter altogether. Read Patanjali Yoga Sutras. Notice the emphasis on concentration throughout – as in in the name of the first 2 books. Meditation flows out of concentration. How concentration is achieved is by several methods/ types of yoga. In Bhakti yoga or Christianity we do not find people sitting cross-legged normally concentrating on a yantra like Raja Yoga of which I speak. Concentration on the Lord brings is used in this case. In Karma Yoga selfless service increases will power and detachment and drives an individual inward to the refuge of the Lord. There are many ways to achieve concentration, but without it you have nothing. So powerful a grasp of concentration gained through hypnosis can be see when abused by Indian fakirs when they do the rope trick. They cast a rope into the air and climb it. Do they really climb it? No! It is far easier to hypnotise the crowd into believing they did. These fakirs (faker is derived from this word) – the degree with which you can control your own subconscious is the degree to which you can control others – they abuse this power. But it is illustrative of their degree of control of the mind. Unlike MM I do not feel the need/compulsion to entertain your lame brain attitude so this will likely be my last correspondence with you. You should get a job/life or both. Mike Dubbeld

All right, Mike.  I’m going to let your statement stand alone! We have to still the mind.  A still mind can allow us to function on the next higher plane.  So, if you want to call it self-hypnosis, then it hardly matters.  Our objective is to still the mind, regardless what name you want to give to that process.

Michael http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

Michael — Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

<snip Michael Martin can answer for himself quite easily. When you know who you are you know death for what it is. For you to say this only tells that you do not know who you are. If you knew who you were it would not be possible for you to say this. Hi, Mike.  I replied to your earlier posting, but it seems to have been lost in cyberspace.

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I lost it but there are references to reincarnation and the Bible. But you falsely seem to believe it is someone else’s job to convince you of something. It is not. If you do not beleive something – good. I mentioned recently about mentions of a "second death."  Also, there is mentioned a story about a mother and father, I believe, who asked Jesus about their son, who was born blind.  Jesus told them, "Neither you have sinned, nor the boy has sinned, but that the works of God are made manifest in him."  Now, if none of them sinned in this life, then they must have sinned in a past life.  Perhaps some of this story was eliminated from the Bible, but I believe, "the works of God," meant that the sins of past lives had to be manifested in this life, and that is why the boy was born blind.  You see, if you can’t accept the reincarnation theory here, then it would mean that God is mean, cruel, and gives no justice.  Reincarnation, however, gives us a plausible explanation for his unfortunate destiny.  It also explains so many discrepancies in the world today.  For example, why is one person born in Afghanistan, and another person is born in Beverly Hills, California?  You see, only reincarnation, and karma, offer us a reasonable explanation for these events. Michael Martin this is absolutely true. It answers the age old question ‘Is there justice in the world’. One of the reasons material man whines and moans is on this account alone. He sees injustice and points an accusing finger at God. If there really is a God, how could he let my mother die or whatever. But  it is another copout/excuse. Just like in physics in elementary school we are taught ‘for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction’. So also is all of science and religion based on Cause and Effect. But you are brave to answer everyone in these pages. Everyone does not really want to know. I think it is nice of you but I scrapped the idea of convincing anyone long long ago. Just think – if you were not using your time here – you could be applying it where it is better spent. Let these people find out on their own. They neither believe nor appreciate the information. It/they are a waste of time. Mike Dubbeld

Yes, you make a good point, but I’m hoping that all my work won’t fall on deaf ears.  The Lord told me in meditation, recently, that only a small percentage of the earth’s population makes a daily prayer to him.  The point being that they (the majority) don’t even care about the Lord, so why should they care about the Holy Men?  I understand that the majority will be barren ground, but once in a while there is a True Seeker out there.  It is for those True Seekers, that Emily Dickinson wrote 1,700 poems, mostly about Sant Mat.  Whitman wrote "Leaves of Grass,"  Goethe wrote, "Faust," Carlyle wrote, "Heroes and Hero Worship,"  Emerson wrote his numerous essays, Rumi wrote "Masnavi," and recent Masters have written many books, also.  My Master sold his books at no charge.  So, were they wasting their time, or will some soul benefit from their spiritual work, or spiritual seva?  It’s up to God’s will.  Mystics just do what they can for humanity.  They are altruists, par excellence. The sad thing is, that usually, it is after the death of these Great Mystics, that man finally recognizes them, and then religions are formed, but sadly, many of the true Mystic Teachings are lost. <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you do not use concentration before meditation you are basically wasting your time. You can alter states of awareness without  concentration. Just lie down on your bed. I call it sleep in this case though. Dreaming with your eyes shut while sitting is killing time the hard way. You think you are your mind or brain. As such you believe that there is some combination of words is what is important. You think this is some kind of debate that is won or lost. It isn’t. No one can help you with your confusion. Only you can help you. It is of no importance what anyone else believes. What others believe won’t help you. If you read the Bible 100 times this will not make you spiritual. It is only when you apply what you learn so that it comes alive in your own experience that is important. Anyone can throw rocks/criticize. No one cares where ideas come from. That is not important. What is important is if they are true. You can not and never will experience God with your mind and senses. I am sorry to hear you think you are your mind. Mike Dubbeld

<snip Best Wishes, Michael http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

*** Yeah I remember I did not bother to answer this guy cause I can see he is out to lunch. Ok here goes. You are right bothi. It is hypnosis. You use hypnosis to control the subconscious mind. That is what hypnotism is all about. Yoga – as is totally unknown to you – is about mind control. *** But how can one presume to be in control of it? Hypnosis is known to blur the line between fantasy and reality.  I suppose you could argue that is what you want, since fantasy arrises from the subconscious. I would argue consciousness interpretation of those images is unreliable at best.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Masters at Beas have always emphasized that we must start with faith in the Sat Guru.  Starting with love, faith, and devotion, then we should attend to our daily meditation.  When we are able to concentrate the mind and soul at the third eye center, then we will experience the light and sound within, and ultimately meet the Master’s Radiant Form.  When we meet his form, then we can leave the body at will.  Then our inner vision, and inner hearing, will be opened. Those who are able to leave the body at will, will have no problem at the time of death, as they have become used to leaving the body, and using the inner vision, and inner hearing.  Soami Ji Maharaj mentioned this in his "last commandments."  He used the analogy that a swimmer will not drown, if thrown into the river, but one who doesn’t know swimming would drown.  Death can be frightful if we are not prepared for it.  We should prepare ourselves, now, by attending to the meditation, and gaining control of our mind, inner seeing, inner hearing, etc.. Whatever spiritual wealth we gain during our life will be available at the time of death. Emily Dickinson has referred to all of this: FAITH is a fine invention For gentlemen who see; But microscopes are prudent In an emergency! MM: When we see the Master, we will get the maximum benefit, if we can have faith in him.  Emily points out that "inner seeing," is more beneficial to us "in an emergency," which is the time of death. Microscopes bring things closer to us; they make things clearer to us.  Maharaj Ji Charan Singh used to say that the inner vision was like "looking in a glass."  I suppose he meant through binoculars, a telescope, or perhaps a microscope.  Emily is referring to this same inner vision.  The wise man/woman will make developing this inner vision the most important thing in his life. Michael — Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas Dear Michael: You are talking about the ideas of other people, I prefer to know your own ideas,and info,and knowledge, stories from some other people about death and spirit and this cannot be correct,unless we experience it,it is not our knowledge.It  the second or third hand pieces of stories. My experiences are basically the same as those of Emily Dickinson. People rarely want to put faith in Living Masters.  My own Master used to quote Past Mystics often, and he did that for 38 years, and initiated some 1,200,000 souls. Every Living Master faces the same difficulty with the people preferring to believe in Past Masters.  The Bible says, "Moses gave you the law, but Jesus Christ came with grace and truth."  Moses was a Master, and he gave the same teachings.  The people in Christ’s time were believing in Moses, and the line of Mystics, which followed him. So, we have the same problem today.  The grace and truth, which includes opening the inner vision, always comes to us after we have followed a Living Master. Which spirit you are talking about?Is that the one that Medical science shows, psyhcology,or the one that religious holy books talk? The soul.  It is a drop of spirituality, and when the soul has cast off the three bodies, and three minds, it shines with the light of twelve suns. There is only mind,mind is a function of the brain,so no spirit at all… In the beginning, soul had the control of mind, and mind had control of the body.  Now, due to ages of sinning, the situation is reversed. Perfect Masters teach us how to regain normalcy. No reincarnation neither… If you believe bible, can you explain the firsts humans, where is the reincarnation over there. Reincarnation is a fact.  If it has been thrown out of the Bible, it doesn’t mean that it is not true.  There are several mentions of a "second death," which I posted about recently.  We can only have a second death, if we have a second birth.  A second birth is a reincarnation.  We can’t take the Bible as a book of law.

The ancient Greeks – Pythagoras/Plato/Parmenides Eleatic School – they also believed in transmigration of the soul. I had a number of references to reincarnation in the Bible but I lost them. Recently I was challenged on this. I believe the Bible was butchered to a large degree by literalists that simply could not grasp its mystical inner meanings. Also heard that the only reason Revelation was left alone was because it was purposely coded secretly so that those who believed would know its meaning and a warning from St.John. (Apocalypse Unsealed/Dance of Ecstasy) but Western religion is an area I  don’t know that well. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These put people on hallucinations. HUH?  LOL  Could you explain what you mean? The most important is your own ideas, not some body else`s. Let us here your own experiences without giving grounds on other people… I’m ready to discuss them. The aim of YOGA is to be aware of, to get rid of all the conditioned minds,Meditation is the tool for this, but what you are talking is not meditation it is hypnosis, taht is conditioning… Compassionately, bothi

Yeah I remember I did not bother to answer this guy cause I can see he is out to lunch. Ok here goes. You are right bothi. It is hypnosis. You use hypnosis to control the subconscious mind. That is what hypnotism is all about. Yoga – as is totally unknown to you – is about mind control. Not only does the conscious mind need to be controlled – the subconscious mind does also. A hypnotist however is considered a mere dabbler to a yogi. No one can control the mind better than a yogi. So hypnotic techniques are used to accomplish the task of bringing the mind under control. Since you know nothing about yoga as you imagine you do and I have to explain this to you – pay attention here- when through concentration the mind is brought still, the soul is able to manifest itself. It is through concentration and only through concentration that this comes about. That is why I come down so hard on your particular case – because you are totally clueless of this fact and yet you bandy about the word as if you had some sort of clue -you don’t. And worse is that you screw up so many other people with your non-understanding of the matter altogether. Read Patanjali Yoga Sutras. Notice the emphasis on concentration throughout – as in in the name of the first 2 books. Meditation flows out of concentration. How concentration is achieved is by several methods/ types of yoga. In Bhakti yoga or Christianity we do not find people sitting cross-legged normally concentrating on a yantra like Raja Yoga of which I speak. Concentration on the Lord brings is used in this case. In Karma Yoga selfless service increases will power and detachment and drives an individual inward to the refuge of the Lord. There are many ways to achieve concentration, but without it you have nothing. So powerful a grasp of concentration gained through hypnosis can be see when abused by Indian fakirs when they do the rope trick. They cast a rope into the air and climb it. Do they really climb it? No! It is far easier to hypnotise the crowd into believing they did. These fakirs (faker is derived from this word) – the degree with which you can control your own subconscious is the degree to which you can control others – they abuse this power. But it is illustrative of their degree of control of the mind. Unlike MM I do not feel the need/compulsion to entertain your lame brain attitude so this will likely be my last correspondence with you. You should get a job/life or both. Mike Dubbeld – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We have to still the mind.  A still mind can allow us to function on the next higher plane.  So, if you want to call it self-hypnosis, then it hardly matters.  Our objective is to still the mind, regardless what name you want to give to that process. Michael http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Masters at Beas have always emphasized that we must start with faith in the Sat Guru.  Starting with love, faith, and devotion, then we should attend to our daily meditation.  When we are able to concentrate the mind and soul at the third eye center, then we will experience the light and sound within, and ultimately meet the Master’s Radiant Form.  When we meet his form, then we can leave the body at will.  Then our inner vision, and inner hearing, will be opened. Those who are able to leave the body at will, will have no problem at the time of death, as they have become used to leaving the body, and using the inner vision, and inner hearing.  Soami Ji Maharaj mentioned this in his "last commandments."  He used the analogy that a swimmer will not drown, if thrown into the river, but one who doesn’t know swimming would drown.  Death can be frightful if we are not prepared for it.  We should prepare ourselves, now, by attending to the meditation, and gaining control of our mind, inner seeing, inner hearing, etc.. Whatever spiritual wealth we gain during our life will be available at the time of death. Emily Dickinson has referred to all of this: FAITH is a fine invention For gentlemen who see; But microscopes are prudent In an emergency! MM: When we see the Master, we will get the maximum benefit, if we can have faith in him.  Emily points out that "inner seeing," is more beneficial to us "in an emergency," which is the time of death. Microscopes bring things closer to us; they make things clearer to us.  Maharaj Ji Charan Singh used to say that the inner vision was like "looking in a glass."  I suppose he meant through binoculars, a telescope, or perhaps a microscope.  Emily is referring to this same inner vision.  The wise man/woman will make developing this inner vision the most important thing in his life. Michael — Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas Dear Michael: You are talking about the ideas of other people, I prefer to know your own ideas,and info,and knowledge, stories from some other people about death and spirit and this cannot be correct,unless we experience it,it is not our knowledge.It  the second or third hand pieces of stories. Michael Martin can answer for himself quite easily. When you know who you are you know death for what it is. For you to say this only tells that you do not know who you are. If you knew who you were it would not be possible for you to say this. Hi, Mike.  I replied to your earlier posting, but it seems to have been lost in cyberspace. Which spirit you are talking about?Is that the one that Medical science shows, psyhcology,or the one that religious holy books talk? Again, what would you care – as you none of the above anyway and assuming for a moment you did – what would that mean/be good for? There is only mind,mind is a function of the brain,so no spirit at all… The brain is the physical result of the mind. Because there was a mind, the brain manifested. Sorry to hear your limited experience. No reincarnation neither… If you believe bible, can you explain the firsts humans, where is the reincarnation over there. I lost it but there are references to reincarnation and the Bible. But you falsely seem to believe it is someone else’s job to convince you of something. It is not. If you do not beleive something – good. I mentioned recently about mentions of a "second death."  Also, there is mentioned a story about a mother and father, I believe, who asked Jesus about their son, who was born blind.  Jesus told them, "Neither you have sinned, nor the boy has sinned, but that the works of God are made manifest in him."  Now, if none of them sinned in this life, then they must have sinned in a past life.  Perhaps some of this story was eliminated from the Bible, but I believe, "the works of God," meant that the sins of past lives had to be manifested in this life, and that is why the boy was born blind.  You see, if you can’t accept the reincarnation theory here, then it would mean that God is mean, cruel, and gives no justice.  Reincarnation, however, gives us a plausible explanation for his unfortunate destiny.  It also explains so many discrepancies in the world today.  For example, why is one person born in Afghanistan, and another person is born in Beverly Hills, California?  You see, only reincarnation, and karma, offer us a reasonable explanation for these events.

Michael Martin this is absolutely true. It answers the age old question ‘Is there justice in the world’. One of the reasons material man whines and moans is on this account alone. He sees injustice and points an accusing finger at God. If there really is a God, how could he let my mother die or whatever. But  it is another copout/excuse. Just like in physics in elementary school we are taught ‘for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction’. So also is all of science and religion based on Cause and Effect. But you are brave to answer everyone in these pages. Everyone does not really want to know. I think it is nice of you but I scrapped the idea of convincing anyone long long ago. Just think – if you were not using your time here – you could be applying it where it is better spent. Let these people find out on their own. They neither believe nor appreciate the information. It/they are a waste of time. Mike Dubbeld – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These put people on hallucinations. The most important is your own ideas, not some body else`s. Let us here your own experiences without giving grounds on other people… That is precicely why you don’t get it. It doesn’t matter what answer is given here. Yoga provides the tools only. If you don’t use them thats your problem. The aim of YOGA is to be aware of, to get rid of all the conditioned minds,Meditation is the tool for this, but what you are talking is not meditation it is hypnosis, taht is conditioning… If you do not use concentration before meditation you are basically wasting your time. You can alter states of awareness without concentration. Just lie down on your bed. I call it sleep in this case though. Dreaming with your eyes shut while sitting is killing time the hard way. You think you are your mind or brain. As such you believe that there is some combination of words is what is important. You think this is some kind of debate that is won or lost. It isn’t. No one can help you with your confusion. Only you can help you. It is of no importance what anyone else believes. What others believe won’t help you. If you read the Bible 100 times this will not make you spiritual. It is only when you apply what you learn so that it comes alive in your own experience that is important. Anyone can throw rocks/criticize. No one cares where ideas come from. That is not important. What is important is if they are true. You can not and never will experience God with your mind and senses. I am sorry to hear you think you are your mind. Mike Dubbeld Compassionately, bothi Best Wishes, Michael http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *** No Kundalini is responsible for all the physical body but indirectly. It is more accurate to say a physical body results from Her action. That action being the involution of soul into matter. At death you have left over desires. Every cause has an effect. These desires result in action by Kundalini to bring about a body suitable to have the desires manifested. *** Oh… RB: Shit happens.  How would experience allow one to conclude on the origins of the brain?  Please clarify your definition, or context of the word ‘mind’. *** Transcendental experiences – as in transcending the senses – identify to you that you are not your mind much less the brain. The brain resulted from the mind which you have and keep at death. When reborn it is the same mind. Transcendental experiences are acquired through concentration and meditation. *** Ah… *** I am not just trying to be clever. I am saying that unless and until you have the experience youself of transcending your own mind, stopping it to allow experiences from the soul – you never will get it. It is like trying to pull yourself up by your own boostraps. Transcending the mind takes concentration and requires skill and ‘luck’ too. It is difficult/not popular/not fun. *** So does understanding reality. Lo…it isn’t quite as exciting and simple as trancendence, though it can be exciting if you know enough. *** Drugs alter the physical brain. Matter over mind. One of the ways of achieving psychic power is by drugs they say. But they do not say which ones and warn against it. Pranayama is a breathing exercise to purify the nadis. The nadis are subtle matter – pipes – through which energy current flows. If you do not know what you are doing with breathing exercises you can really harm yourself. *** Harm yourself?  In what way?  I guess you could feel faint… but that’s about it isn’t it? *** The DNA is the physical result of karma. Personality is simply the result of how your subconscious mind has been programmed from square 1. Neurotransmitter chemicals can alter personality. Again matter over mind. *** Question: If the mind is truly seperated from the brain, where do we see the mind manifest itself without the brain?

Of course you know or maybe you do not know. The mind is not gross physical matter. The brain is gross physical matter. The connection between the two is accomplished by waves and energy. It is the interaction of the waves that one influences the other. Subtle matter which the mind is made of is not objective/can not be perceived by the senses. Neither can an electron. Neither can the center of the earth. Subtle matter occupies the same space as gross matter at the same time. Physics is close on this matter – no pun intended. The riddle of the wave/particle nature of light and Quantum Mechanics hinges on this riddle. So do many other unexplainable phenomena. It is not my intention to convince you. It is easy to see by your questions that all of this is not only new but a little more than slightly bizare. I do not blame you at all and furthermore thank you for remaining civil. More than a few just go blindly and wildly on the attack because their notion of reality appears to be under attack. It would be quite bizare to me if you believed any of this. People such as myself were not born yesterday. I am here to tell you that my background is in Electrical Engineering and there are numerous very famous physicists that do study even more bizare ideas. It is on that note that I invite you not to bother with all the junk above – but to get yourself some books on Quantum Mechanics/Physics and see for yourself the types of fairytales they are looking into. Many physicists – because of what QM tells them – are looking at Eastern ideas because some of the ideas from the East known thousands of years ago are showing up as true in QM  - ‘There is no Deep Reality’. I can provide numerous references on this account. Mike Dubbeld – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

*** No Kundalini is responsible for all the physical body but indirectly. It is more accurate to say a physical body results from Her action. That action being the involution of soul into matter. At death you have left over desires. Every cause has an effect. These desires result in action by Kundalini to bring about a body suitable to have the desires manifested. *** Oh… RB: Shit happens.  How would experience allow one to conclude on the origins of the brain?  Please clarify your definition, or context of the word ‘mind’.

*** Transcendental experiences – as in transcending the senses – identify to you that you are not your mind much less the brain. The brain resulted from the mind which you have and keep at death. When reborn it is the same mind. Transcendental experiences are acquired through concentration and meditation. *** Ah… *** I am not just trying to be clever. I am saying that unless and until you have the experience youself of transcending your own mind, stopping it to allow experiences from the soul – you never will get it. It is like trying to pull yourself up by your own boostraps. Transcending the mind takes concentration and requires skill and ‘luck’ too. It is difficult/not popular/not fun. *** So does understanding reality. Lo…it isn’t quite as exciting and simple as trancendence, though it can be exciting if you know enough. *** Drugs alter the physical brain. Matter over mind. One of the ways of achieving psychic power is by drugs they say. But they do not say which ones and warn against it. Pranayama is a breathing exercise to purify the nadis. The nadis are subtle matter – pipes – through which energy current flows. If you do not know what you are doing with breathing exercises you can really harm yourself. *** Harm yourself?  In what way?  I guess you could feel faint… but that’s about it isn’t it? *** The DNA is the physical result of karma. Personality is simply the result of how your subconscious mind has been programmed from square 1. Neurotransmitter chemicals can alter personality. Again matter over mind. *** Question: If the mind is truly seperated from the brain, where do we see the mind manifest itself without the brain?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Masters at Beas have always emphasized that we must start with faith in the Sat Guru.  Starting with love, faith, and devotion, then we should attend to our daily meditation.  When we are able to concentrate the mind and soul at the third eye center, then we will experience the light and sound within, and ultimately meet the Master’s Radiant Form.  When we meet his form, then we can leave the body at will.  Then our inner vision, and inner hearing, will be opened. Those who are able to leave the body at will, will have no problem at the time of death, as they have become used to leaving the body, and using the inner vision, and inner hearing.  Soami Ji Maharaj mentioned this in his "last commandments."  He used the analogy that a swimmer will not drown, if thrown into the river, but one who doesn’t know swimming would drown.  Death can be frightful if we are not prepared for it.  We should prepare ourselves, now, by attending to the meditation, and gaining control of our mind, inner seeing, inner hearing, etc.. Whatever spiritual wealth we gain during our life will be available at the time of death. Emily Dickinson has referred to all of this: FAITH is a fine invention For gentlemen who see; But microscopes are prudent In an emergency! MM: When we see the Master, we will get the maximum benefit, if we can have faith in him.  Emily points out that "inner seeing," is more beneficial to us "in an emergency," which is the time of death. Microscopes bring things closer to us; they make things clearer to us.  Maharaj Ji Charan Singh used to say that the inner vision was like "looking in a glass."  I suppose he meant through binoculars, a telescope, or perhaps a microscope.  Emily is referring to this same inner vision.  The wise man/woman will make developing this inner vision the most important thing in his life. Michael — Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas Dear Michael: You are talking about the ideas of other people, I prefer to know your own ideas,and info,and knowledge, stories from some other people about death and spirit and this cannot be correct,unless we experience it,it is not our knowledge.It  the second or third hand pieces of stories. Michael Martin can answer for himself quite easily. When you know who you are you know death for what it is. For you to say this only tells that you do not know who you are. If you knew who you were it would not be possible for you to say this.

Hi, Mike.  I replied to your earlier posting, but it seems to have been lost in cyberspace. Which spirit you are talking about?Is that the one that Medical science shows, psyhcology,or the one that religious holy books talk? Again, what would you care – as you none of the above anyway and assuming for a moment you did – what would that mean/be good for? There is only mind,mind is a function of the brain,so no spirit at all… The brain is the physical result of the mind. Because there was a mind, the brain manifested. Sorry to hear your limited experience. No reincarnation neither… If you believe bible, can you explain the firsts humans, where is the reincarnation over there. I lost it but there are references to reincarnation and the Bible. But you falsely seem to believe it is someone else’s job to convince you of something. It is not. If you do not beleive something – good.

I mentioned recently about mentions of a "second death."  Also, there is mentioned a story about a mother and father, I believe, who asked Jesus about their son, who was born blind.  Jesus told them, "Neither you have sinned, nor the boy has sinned, but that the works of God are made manifest in him."  Now, if none of them sinned in this life, then they must have sinned in a past life.  Perhaps some of this story was eliminated from the Bible, but I believe, "the works of God," meant that the sins of past lives had to be manifested in this life, and that is why the boy was born blind.  You see, if you can’t accept the reincarnation theory here, then it would mean that God is mean, cruel, and gives no justice.  Reincarnation, however, gives us a plausible explanation for his unfortunate destiny.  It also explains so many discrepancies in the world today.  For example, why is one person born in Afghanistan, and another person is born in Beverly Hills, California?  You see, only reincarnation, and karma, offer us a reasonable explanation for these events. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These put people on hallucinations. The most important is your own ideas, not some body else`s. Let us here your own experiences without giving grounds on other people… That is precicely why you don’t get it. It doesn’t matter what answer is given here. Yoga provides the tools only. If you don’t use them thats your problem. The aim of YOGA is to be aware of, to get rid of all the conditioned minds,Meditation is the tool for this, but what you are talking is not meditation it is hypnosis, taht is conditioning… If you do not use concentration before meditation you are basically wasting your time. You can alter states of awareness without concentration. Just lie down on your bed. I call it sleep in this case though. Dreaming with your eyes shut while sitting is killing time the hard way. You think you are your mind or brain. As such you believe that there is some combination of words is what is important. You think this is some kind of debate that is won or lost. It isn’t. No one can help you with your confusion. Only you can help you. It is of no importance what anyone else believes. What others believe won’t help you. If you read the Bible 100 times this will not make you spiritual. It is only when you apply what you learn so that it comes alive in your own experience that is important. Anyone can throw rocks/criticize. No one cares where ideas come from. That is not important. What is important is if they are true. You can not and never will experience God with your mind and senses. I am sorry to hear you think you are your mind. Mike Dubbeld Compassionately, bothi

Best Wishes, Michael http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Masters at Beas have always emphasized that we must start with faith in the Sat Guru.  Starting with love, faith, and devotion, then we should attend to our daily meditation.  When we are able to concentrate the mind and soul at the third eye center, then we will experience the light and sound within, and ultimately meet the Master’s Radiant Form.  When we meet his form, then we can leave the body at will.  Then our inner vision, and inner hearing, will be opened. Those who are able to leave the body at will, will have no problem at the time of death, as they have become used to leaving the body, and using the inner vision, and inner hearing.  Soami Ji Maharaj mentioned this in his "last commandments."  He used the analogy that a swimmer will not drown, if thrown into the river, but one who doesn’t know swimming would drown.  Death can be frightful if we are not prepared for it.  We should prepare ourselves, now, by attending to the meditation, and gaining control of our mind, inner seeing, inner hearing, etc.. Whatever spiritual wealth we gain during our life will be available at the time of death. Emily Dickinson has referred to all of this: FAITH is a fine invention   For gentlemen who see;   But microscopes are prudent   In an emergency! MM: When we see the Master, we will get the maximum benefit, if we can have faith in him.  Emily points out that "inner seeing," is more beneficial to us "in an emergency," which is the time of death. Microscopes bring things closer to us; they make things clearer to us.  Maharaj Ji Charan Singh used to say that the inner vision was like "looking in a glass."  I suppose he meant through binoculars, a telescope, or perhaps a microscope.  Emily is referring to this same inner vision.  The wise man/woman will make developing this inner vision the most important thing in his life. Michael — Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas Dear Michael: You are talking about the ideas of other people, I prefer to know your own ideas,and info,and knowledge, stories from some other people about death and spirit and this cannot be correct,unless we experience it,it is not our knowledge.It  the second or third hand pieces of stories.

My experiences are basically the same as those of Emily Dickinson. People rarely want to put faith in Living Masters.  My own Master used to quote Past Mystics often, and he did that for 38 years, and initiated some 1,200,000 souls. Every Living Master faces the same difficulty with the people preferring to believe in Past Masters.  The Bible says, "Moses gave you the law, but Jesus Christ came with grace and truth."  Moses was a Master, and he gave the same teachings.  The people in Christ’s time were believing in Moses, and the line of Mystics, which followed him. So, we have the same problem today.  The grace and truth, which includes opening the inner vision, always comes to us after we have followed a Living Master. Which spirit you are talking about?Is that the one that Medical science shows, psyhcology,or the one that religious holy books talk?

The soul.  It is a drop of spirituality, and when the soul has cast off the three bodies, and three minds, it shines with the light of twelve suns. There is only mind,mind is a function of the brain,so no spirit at all…

In the beginning, soul had the control of mind, and mind had control of the body.  Now, due to ages of sinning, the situation is reversed. Perfect Masters teach us how to regain normalcy. No reincarnation neither… If you believe bible, can you explain the firsts humans, where is the reincarnation over there.

Reincarnation is a fact.  If it has been thrown out of the Bible, it doesn’t mean that it is not true.  There are several mentions of a "second death," which I posted about recently.  We can only have a second death, if we have a second birth.  A second birth is a reincarnation.  We can’t take the Bible as a book of law. These put people on hallucinations.

HUH?  LOL  Could you explain what you mean? The most important is your own ideas, not some body else`s. Let us here your own experiences without giving grounds on other people…

I’m ready to discuss them. The aim of YOGA is to be aware of, to get rid of all the conditioned minds,Meditation is the tool for this, but what you are talking is not meditation it is hypnosis, taht is conditioning… Compassionately, bothi

We have to still the mind.  A still mind can allow us to function on the next higher plane.  So, if you want to call it self-hypnosis, then it hardly matters.  Our objective is to still the mind, regardless what name you want to give to that process. Michael http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – bothi: There is only mind, mind is a function of the brain, so no spirit at all… What does mind mean? Organization and consciousness? Organization is everywhere…not just in brains. Consciousness…a bit more difficult to nail down. I would theorize two possibilities. One could be that the properties of the mind are simply the output of the brain and its nifty algorithms. However, there is every indication (based upon the knowledge that a neuron isn’t a simple on/off switch), that the mind comes from the interaction of the brain and the space it inhabits. Even so, what this means is up in the air… it can be chaos, or a self referencial Universe (God). Here is the details: http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0183.html?printable=1 and I’ll throw this in for kicks: http://www.megafoundation.org/Ubiquity/HiQ&A1_6.html Mike: * The brain is the physical result of the mind. * Because there was a mind, * the brain manifested. What mind? Is this mind responsible for the creation of everything?

No Kundalini is responsible for all the physical body but indirectly. It is more accurate to say a physical body results from Her action. That action being the involution of soul into matter. At death you have left over desires. Every cause has an effect. These desires result in action by Kundalini to bring about a body suitable to have the desires manifested. * Sorry to hear your limited experience. Shit happens.  How would experience allow one to conclude on the origins of the brain?  Please clarify your definition, or context of the word ‘mind’.

Transcendental experiences – as in transcending the senses – identify to you that you are not your mind much less the brain. The brain resulted from the mind which you have and keep at death. When reborn it is the same mind. Transcendental experiences are acquired through concentration and meditation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *** I lost it but there are references to reincarnation and the Bible. But you falsely seem to believe it is someone else’s job to convince you of something. It is not. If you do not beleive something – good. *** <comedian If you believe nothing…better! Just kidding…but seriously folks…. </comedian *** That is precicely why you don’t get it. It doesn’t matter what answer is given here. Yoga provides the tools only. If you don’t use them thats your problem. *** I think "thats your choice"… as you alluded too with the "- good". I should do yoga…or something for darn sakes.

I am not just trying to be clever. I am saying that unless and until you have the experience youself of transcending your own mind, stopping it to allow experiences from the soul – you never will get it. It is like trying to pull yourself up by your own boostraps. Transcending the mind takes concentration and requires skill and ‘luck’ too. It is difficult/not popular/not fun. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *** If you do not use concentration before meditation you are basically wasting your time. You can alter states of awareness without concentration. Just lie down on your bed. I call it sleep in this case though. Dreaming with your eyes shut while sitting is killing time the hard way. *** In case drugs aren’t allowed…do that breathing thing. You hyperventilate for a bit while bent over…then stand up and someone bear hugs you…damn…that was some crazy stuff… I blacked out, had a vivid dream and woke up to my friends screaming at me to wake up… since I was unsure exactly what it did to the brain, I didn’t repeat the process.

Drugs alter the physical brain. Matter over mind. One of the ways of achieving psychic power is by drugs they say. But they do not say which ones and warn against it. Pranayama is a breathing exercise to purify the nadis. The nadis are subtle matter – pipes – through which energy current flows. If you do not know what you are doing with breathing exercises you can really harm yourself. *** You think you are your mind or brain. *** Why not…is it soooo crazy that DNA actually guides his behaviour…that memories help shape his personality…and that they all interact with the mind (chaos/God).  Well, I guess that is more than the mind or brain alone.

The DNA is the physical result of karma. Personality is simply the result of how your subconscious mind has been programmed from square 1. Neurotransmitter chemicals can alter personality. Again matter over mind. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *** As such you believe that there is some combination of words is what is important. *** 1, 2, 3, 4 get your booty on the floor… godda get up to get down! *** You think this is some kind of debate that is won or lost. It isn’t. No one can help you with your confusion. Only you can help you. *** I godda agree there, although asking for help wouldn’t hurt. Typically, get help from both sides to understand the different perspectives and the premises.  Then choose the one you agree most with at the time…and always keep an open mind…well as much as possible anyway. *It is of no importance what anyone else believes. In theory, but certainly not in practice. *** What others believe won’t help you. If you read the Bible 100 times this will not make you spiritual. It is only when you apply what you learn so that it comes alive in your own experience that is important. Anyone can throw rocks/criticize. No one cares where ideas come from. That is not important. What is important is if they are true. *** Darn tooting! *** You can not and never will experience God with your mind and senses. *** You just might with circular logic! *** I am sorry to hear you think you are your mind. *** Well somebody has to be…might as well be him.

Response:

Sure sounds like whatever you are doing works.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Masters at Beas have always emphasized that we must start with faith in the Sat Guru.  Starting with love, faith, and devotion, then we should attend to our daily meditation.  When we are able to concentrate the mind and soul at the third eye center, then we will experience the light and sound within, and ultimately meet the Master’s Radiant Form.  When we meet his form, then we can leave the body at will.  Then our inner vision, and inner hearing, will be opened. Those who are able to leave the body at will, will have no problem at the time of death, as they have become used to leaving the body, and using the inner vision, and inner hearing.  Soami Ji Maharaj mentioned this in his "last commandments."  He used the analogy that a swimmer will not drown, if thrown into the river, but one who doesn’t know swimming would drown.  Death can be frightful if we are not prepared for it.  We should prepare ourselves, now, by attending to the meditation, and gaining control of our mind, inner seeing, inner hearing, etc.. Whatever spiritual wealth we gain during our life will be available at the time of death. Emily Dickinson has referred to all of this: FAITH is a fine invention For gentlemen who see; But microscopes are prudent In an emergency! MM: When we see the Master, we will get the maximum benefit, if we can have faith in him.  Emily points out that "inner seeing," is more beneficial to us "in an emergency," which is the time of death. Microscopes bring things closer to us; they make things clearer to us.  Maharaj Ji Charan Singh used to say that the inner vision was like "looking in a glass."  I suppose he meant through binoculars, a telescope, or perhaps a microscope.  Emily is referring to this same inner vision.  The wise man/woman will make developing this inner vision the most important thing in his life. Michael — Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas Dear Michael: You are talking about the ideas of other people, I prefer to know your own ideas,and info,and knowledge, stories from some other people about death and spirit and this cannot be correct,unless we experience it,it is not our knowledge.It  the second or third hand pieces of stories. Michael Martin can answer for himself quite easily. When you know who you are you know death for what it is. For you to say this only tells that you do not know who you are. If you knew who you were it would not be possible for you to say this. Which spirit you are talking about?Is that the one that Medical science shows, psyhcology,or the one that religious holy books talk? Again, what would you care – as you none of the above anyway and assuming for a moment you did – what would that mean/be good for? There is only mind,mind is a function of the brain,so no spirit at all… The brain is the physical result of the mind. Because there was a mind, the brain manifested. Sorry to hear your limited experience. No reincarnation neither… If you believe bible, can you explain the firsts humans, where is the reincarnation over there. I lost it but there are references to reincarnation and the Bible. But you falsely seem to believe it is someone else’s job to convince you of something. It is not. If you do not beleive something – good. These put people on hallucinations. The most important is your own ideas, not some body else`s. Let us here your own experiences without giving grounds on other people… That is precicely why you don’t get it. It doesn’t matter what answer is given here. Yoga provides the tools only. If you don’t use them thats your problem. The aim of YOGA is to be aware of, to get rid of all the conditioned minds,Meditation is the tool for this, but what you are talking is not meditation it is hypnosis, taht is conditioning… If you do not use concentration before meditation you are basically wasting your time. You can alter states of awareness without concentration. Just lie down on your bed. I call it sleep in this case though. Dreaming with your eyes shut while sitting is killing time the hard way. You think you are your mind or brain. As such you believe that there is some combination of words is what is important. You think this is some kind of debate that is won or lost. It isn’t. No one can help you with your confusion. Only you can help you. It is of no importance what anyone else believes. What others believe won’t help you. If you read the Bible 100 times this will not make you spiritual. It is only when you apply what you learn so that it comes alive in your own experience that is important. Anyone can throw rocks/criticize. No one cares where ideas come from. That is not important. What is important is if they are true. You can not and never will experience God with your mind and senses. I am sorry to hear you think you are your mind. Mike Dubbeld Dear Dubbeld, Thanks for your kind reply anyway.There is a confusion but not attached me.From your kind words it seems that you know who you are. If it was so, you would also known who I am.My dear friend there is an important line in between to believe and to know.Believers do not know, as they have second hand information which mostly are distorted from the origin.But knowers are the ones they experience it whatever they know. Seems to me yours is not MEDITATION, it is more likely SELF-HYPNOSIS.In both of these there are SUBJECTS,both meditative or hypnotic.If MINDFULNESS is involved it is called MEDITATION,if suggestions and images are involved,then it is called HYPNOSIS. I do MEDITATION on MINDFULNESS,VIPASSANA,and others.However I am not saying that hypnosis has no value.There are times that hypnosis also needed by a person. But most people being unaware of this fact,think that they are doing meditation,if one feels his spirit is going out of his body,that is not meditation it is a plane hypnosis,same sort of things happen during heart or any other organ surgery.And during normal sleep.Even the meaning of AUM clearly states this fact.If you do know how to use it… I only care your personal experiences not second hand info,those second hand infos.are valuable but actually they are far from their original format. Yes to know is quite different than to believe. Please think over this. Compassionately, bothi

Response:

bothi: There is only mind, mind is a function of the brain, so no spirit at all…

What does mind mean? Organization and consciousness? Organization is everywhere…not just in brains. Consciousness…a bit more difficult to nail down. I would theorize two possibilities. One could be that the properties of the mind are simply the output of the brain and its nifty algorithms. However, there is every indication (based upon the knowledge that a neuron isn’t a simple on/off switch), that the mind comes from the interaction of the brain and the space it inhabits. Even so, what this means is up in the air… it can be chaos, or a self referencial Universe (God). Here is the details: http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0183.html?printable=1 and I’ll throw this in for kicks: http://www.megafoundation.org/Ubiquity/HiQ&A1_6.html Mike: * The brain is the physical result of the mind. * Because there was a mind, * the brain manifested. What mind? Is this mind responsible for the creation of everything? * Sorry to hear your limited experience. Shit happens.  How would experience allow one to conclude on the origins of the brain?  Please clarify your definition, or context of the word ‘mind’. *** I lost it but there are references to reincarnation and the Bible. But you falsely seem to believe it is someone else’s job to convince you of something. It is not. If you do not beleive something – good. *** <comedian If you believe nothing…better! Just kidding…but seriously folks…. </comedian *** That is precicely why you don’t get it. It doesn’t matter what answer is given here. Yoga provides the tools only. If you don’t use them thats your problem. *** I think "thats your choice"… as you alluded too with the "- good". I should do yoga…or something for darn sakes. *** If you do not use concentration before meditation you are basically wasting your time. You can alter states of awareness without concentration. Just lie down on your bed. I call it sleep in this case though. Dreaming with your eyes shut while sitting is killing time the hard way. *** In case drugs aren’t allowed…do that breathing thing. You hyperventilate for a bit while bent over…then stand up and someone bear hugs you…damn…that was some crazy stuff… I blacked out, had a vivid dream and woke up to my friends screaming at me to wake up… since I was unsure exactly what it did to the brain, I didn’t repeat the process. *** You think you are your mind or brain. *** Why not…is it soooo crazy that DNA actually guides his behaviour…that memories help shape his personality…and that they all interact with the mind (chaos/God).  Well, I guess that is more than the mind or brain alone. *** As such you believe that there is some combination of words is what is important. *** 1, 2, 3, 4 get your booty on the floor… godda get up to get down! *** You think this is some kind of debate that is won or lost. It isn’t. No one can help you with your confusion. Only you can help you. *** I godda agree there, although asking for help wouldn’t hurt. Typically, get help from both sides to understand the different perspectives and the premises.  Then choose the one you agree most with at the time…and always keep an open mind…well as much as possible anyway. *It is of no importance what anyone else believes. In theory, but certainly not in practice. *** What others believe won’t help you. If you read the Bible 100 times this will not make you spiritual. It is only when you apply what you learn so that it comes alive in your own experience that is important. Anyone can throw rocks/criticize. No one cares where ideas come from. That is not important. What is important is if they are true. *** Darn tooting! *** You can not and never will experience God with your mind and senses. *** You just might with circular logic! *** I am sorry to hear you think you are your mind. *** Well somebody has to be…might as well be him.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Masters at Beas have always emphasized that we must start with faith in the Sat Guru.  Starting with love, faith, and devotion, then we should attend to our daily meditation.  When we are able to concentrate the mind and soul at the third eye center, then we will experience the light and sound within, and ultimately meet the Master’s Radiant Form.  When we meet his form, then we can leave the body at will.  Then our inner vision, and inner hearing, will be opened. Those who are able to leave the body at will, will have no problem at the time of death, as they have become used to leaving the body, and using the inner vision, and inner hearing.  Soami Ji Maharaj mentioned this in his "last commandments."  He used the analogy that a swimmer will not drown, if thrown into the river, but one who doesn’t know swimming would drown.  Death can be frightful if we are not prepared for it.  We should prepare ourselves, now, by attending to the meditation, and gaining control of our mind, inner seeing, inner hearing, etc.. Whatever spiritual wealth we gain during our life will be available at the time of death. Emily Dickinson has referred to all of this: FAITH is a fine invention For gentlemen who see; But microscopes are prudent In an emergency! MM: When we see the Master, we will get the maximum benefit, if we can have faith in him.  Emily points out that "inner seeing," is more beneficial to us "in an emergency," which is the time of death. Microscopes bring things closer to us; they make things clearer to us.  Maharaj Ji Charan Singh used to say that the inner vision was like "looking in a glass."  I suppose he meant through binoculars, a telescope, or perhaps a microscope.  Emily is referring to this same inner vision.  The wise man/woman will make developing this inner vision the most important thing in his life. Michael — Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas Dear Michael: You are talking about the ideas of other people, I prefer to know your own ideas,and info,and knowledge, stories from some other people about death and spirit and this cannot be correct,unless we experience it,it is not our knowledge.It  the second or third hand pieces of stories. Michael Martin can answer for himself quite easily. When you know who you are you know death for what it is. For you to say this only tells that you do not know who you are. If you knew who you were it would not be possible for you to say this. Which spirit you are talking about?Is that the one that Medical science shows, psyhcology,or the one that religious holy books talk? Again, what would you care – as you none of the above anyway and assuming for a moment you did – what would that mean/be good for? There is only mind,mind is a function of the brain,so no spirit at all… The brain is the physical result of the mind. Because there was a mind, the brain manifested. Sorry to hear your limited experience. No reincarnation neither… If you believe bible, can you explain the firsts humans, where is the reincarnation over there. I lost it but there are references to reincarnation and the Bible. But you falsely seem to believe it is someone else’s job to convince you of something. It is not. If you do not beleive something – good. These put people on hallucinations. The most important is your own ideas, not some body else`s. Let us here your own experiences without giving grounds on other people… That is precicely why you don’t get it. It doesn’t matter what answer is given here. Yoga provides the tools only. If you don’t use them thats your problem. The aim of YOGA is to be aware of, to get rid of all the conditioned minds,Meditation is the tool for this, but what you are talking is not meditation it is hypnosis, taht is conditioning… If you do not use concentration before meditation you are basically wasting your time. You can alter states of awareness without concentration. Just lie down on your bed. I call it sleep in this case though. Dreaming with your eyes shut while sitting is killing time the hard way. You think you are your mind or brain. As such you believe that there is some combination of words is what is important. You think this is some kind of debate that is won or lost. It isn’t. No one can help you with your confusion. Only you can help you. It is of no importance what anyone else believes. What others believe won’t help you. If you read the Bible 100 times this will not make you spiritual. It is only when you apply what you learn so that it comes alive in your own experience that is important. Anyone can throw rocks/criticize. No one cares where ideas come from. That is not important. What is important is if they are true. You can not and never will experience God with your mind and senses. I am sorry to hear you think you are your mind. Mike Dubbeld

Dear Dubbeld, Thanks for your kind reply anyway.There is a confusion but not attached me.From your kind words it seems that you know who you are. If it was so, you would also known who I am.My dear friend there is an important line in between to believe and to know.Believers do not know, as they have second hand information which mostly are distorted from the origin.But knowers are the ones they experience it whatever they know. Seems to me yours is not MEDITATION, it is more likely SELF-HYPNOSIS.In both of these there are SUBJECTS,both meditative or hypnotic.If MINDFULNESS is involved it is called MEDITATION,if suggestions and images are involved,then it is called HYPNOSIS. I do MEDITATION on MINDFULNESS,VIPASSANA,and others.However I am not saying that hypnosis has no value.There are times that hypnosis also needed by a person. But most people being unaware of this fact,think that they are doing meditation,if one feels his spirit is going out of his body,that is not meditation it is a plane hypnosis,same sort of things happen during heart or any other organ surgery.And during normal sleep.Even the meaning of AUM clearly states this fact.If you do know how to use it… I only care your personal experiences not second hand info,those second hand infos.are valuable but actually they are far from their original format. Yes to know is quite different than to believe. Please think over this. Compassionately, bothi

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Masters at Beas have always emphasized that we must start with faith in the Sat Guru.  Starting with love, faith, and devotion, then we should attend to our daily meditation.  When we are able to concentrate the mind and soul at the third eye center, then we will experience the light and sound within, and ultimately meet the Master’s Radiant Form.  When we meet his form, then we can leave the body at will.  Then our inner vision, and inner hearing, will be opened. Those who are able to leave the body at will, will have no problem at the time of death, as they have become used to leaving the body, and using the inner vision, and inner hearing.  Soami Ji Maharaj mentioned this in his "last commandments."  He used the analogy that a swimmer will not drown, if thrown into the river, but one who doesn’t know swimming would drown.  Death can be frightful if we are not prepared for it.  We should prepare ourselves, now, by attending to the meditation, and gaining control of our mind, inner seeing, inner hearing, etc.. Whatever spiritual wealth we gain during our life will be available at the time of death. Emily Dickinson has referred to all of this: FAITH is a fine invention For gentlemen who see; But microscopes are prudent In an emergency! MM: When we see the Master, we will get the maximum benefit, if we can have faith in him.  Emily points out that "inner seeing," is more beneficial to us "in an emergency," which is the time of death. Microscopes bring things closer to us; they make things clearer to us.  Maharaj Ji Charan Singh used to say that the inner vision was like "looking in a glass."  I suppose he meant through binoculars, a telescope, or perhaps a microscope.  Emily is referring to this same inner vision.  The wise man/woman will make developing this inner vision the most important thing in his life. Michael — Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas Dear Michael: You are talking about the ideas of other people, I prefer to know your own ideas,and info,and knowledge, stories from some other people about death and spirit and this cannot be correct,unless we experience it,it is not our knowledge.It  the second or third hand pieces of stories.

Michael Martin can answer for himself quite easily. When you know who you are you know death for what it is. For you to say this only tells that you do not know who you are. If you knew who you were it would not be possible for you to say this. Which spirit you are talking about?Is that the one that Medical science shows, psyhcology,or the one that religious holy books talk?

Again, what would you care – as you none of the above anyway and assuming for a moment you did – what would that mean/be good for? There is only mind,mind is a function of the brain,so no spirit at all…

The brain is the physical result of the mind. Because there was a mind, the brain manifested. Sorry to hear your limited experience. No reincarnation neither… If you believe bible, can you explain the firsts humans, where is the reincarnation over there.

I lost it but there are references to reincarnation and the Bible. But you falsely seem to believe it is someone else’s job to convince you of something. It is not. If you do not beleive something – good. These put people on hallucinations. The most important is your own ideas, not some body else`s. Let us here your own experiences without giving grounds on other people…

That is precicely why you don’t get it. It doesn’t matter what answer is given here. Yoga provides the tools only. If you don’t use them thats your problem. The aim of YOGA is to be aware of, to get rid of all the conditioned minds,Meditation is the tool for this, but what you are talking is not meditation it is hypnosis, taht is conditioning…

If you do not use concentration before meditation you are basically wasting your time. You can alter states of awareness without concentration. Just lie down on your bed. I call it sleep in this case though. Dreaming with your eyes shut while sitting is killing time the hard way. You think you are your mind or brain. As such you believe that there is some combination of words is what is important. You think this is some kind of debate that is won or lost. It isn’t. No one can help you with your confusion. Only you can help you. It is of no importance what anyone else believes. What others believe won’t help you. If you read the Bible 100 times this will not make you spiritual. It is only when you apply what you learn so that it comes alive in your own experience that is important. Anyone can throw rocks/criticize. No one cares where ideas come from. That is not important. What is important is if they are true. You can not and never will experience God with your mind and senses. I am sorry to hear you think you are your mind. Mike Dubbeld – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Compassionately, bothi

Response:

People think they love this world because they know no other. I get tangled up in the conscious mind and worldly affairs but the inner light is there especially when I sleep. I push concentration and meditation because once a person experiences rewards/ there is an end to the tunnel – this great encouragement will carry them through. Many people believe the light is just a metaphor but it is not. It comes with inner vision from the 3′rd eye. But it requires skill to develop inner vision. Concentration and meditation cultivate opening the 3′rd eye. Sleeping in the joy of the inner light is very nice. It’s always there. us.  Saints have tried to tell us that this world is all illusion, and encourage us to go to our True Home, far above all sufferings, dissolutions, deaths, etc.,

It is Gods Dream. Once a person goes Home it is over. It then only becomes a matter of working out the details. No more can they be deluded but so much and they finally know what they must do. It is most curious that Quantum Mechanics also tells us that the whole physical universe is basically not real also. There is no ‘out there’. I like reading your stuff. see ya, Mike Dubbeld

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well said. An intellectual that has perfect understanding of the philosophy of reincarnation and believes it will say I am not afraid of death all his life. But when death comes knocking he will fear it. Fearlessness comes from Self-Realization. In that instant fear of death vanishes forever. Pain before death is another matter. We stand as gateways between inner and outer space. Mike Dubbeld That’s right, Mike.  Another thing about death is,that we will be judged.  Our whole life will be judged.  Saints will stand as a ransom for us, if we have faith in them.  If we have a Master, we will not have to be judged by any of Satan’s agents.  They will not give any mercy.  They give a precise punishment.  An eye for an eye,and a tooth for a tooth.  Would a son, who has done wrong, want to be judged by a Judge, whether Federal, Municipal, Satan’s Judge, or by his Father? The Father would be the best choice, because then there would be a love behind the punishment.  The Bible said, in respect to this, "Christ stood as a ransom for many."  The Father would not want a full payment of the punishment.  He would be inclined to acquit the son, out of his love for him. Regarding the inner vision, the Bible mentioned, "How great is the darness."  If we follow a Master, do our meditation, then we can replace the darkness with light.  It is much less fearful to go forward in "light," rather than darkness.  And, if we have developed our inner vision, to a high enough plane, then nothing could pull us back to this world.  That would mean freedom from further reincarnations in this world.  Some people love this world, and some would rather not ever return here, again.  So, that decision is up to us.  Saints have tried to tell us that this world is all illusion, and encourage us to go to our True Home, far above all sufferings, dissolutions, deaths, etc., etc.  It would behoove us, if we would follow them, but that’s our personal decision. The Masters at Beas have always emphasized that we must start with faith in the Sat Guru.  Starting with love, faith, and devotion, then we should attend to our daily meditation.  When we are able to concentrate the mind and soul at the third eye center, then we will experience the light and sound within, and ultimately meet the Master’s Radiant Form.  When we meet his form, then we can leave the body at will.  Then our inner vision, and inner hearing, will be opened. Those who are able to leave the body at will, will have no problem at the time of death, as they have become used to leaving the body, and using the inner vision, and inner hearing.  Soami Ji Maharaj mentioned this in his "last commandments."  He used the analogy that a swimmer will not drown, if thrown into the river, but one who doesn’t know swimming would drown.  Death can be frightful if we are not prepared for it.  We should prepare ourselves, now, by attending to the meditation, and gaining control of our mind, inner seeing, inner hearing, etc.. Whatever spiritual wealth we gain during our life will be available at the time of death. Emily Dickinson has referred to all of this: FAITH is a fine invention For gentlemen who see; But microscopes are prudent In an emergency! MM: When we see the Master, we will get the maximum benefit, if we can have faith in him.  Emily points out that "inner seeing," is more beneficial to us "in an emergency," which is the time of death. Microscopes bring things closer to us; they make things clearer to us.  Maharaj Ji Charan Singh used to say that the inner vision was like "looking in a glass."  I suppose he meant through binoculars, a telescope, or perhaps a microscope.  Emily is referring to this same inner vision.  The wise man/woman will make developing this inner vision the most important thing in his life. Michael — Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Masters at Beas have always emphasized that we must start with faith in the Sat Guru.  Starting with love, faith, and devotion, then we should attend to our daily meditation.  When we are able to concentrate the mind and soul at the third eye center, then we will experience the light and sound within, and ultimately meet the Master’s Radiant Form.  When we meet his form, then we can leave the body at will.  Then our inner vision, and inner hearing, will be opened. Those who are able to leave the body at will, will have no problem at the time of death, as they have become used to leaving the body, and using the inner vision, and inner hearing.  Soami Ji Maharaj mentioned this in his "last commandments."  He used the analogy that a swimmer will not drown, if thrown into the river, but one who doesn’t know swimming would drown.  Death can be frightful if we are not prepared for it.  We should prepare ourselves, now, by attending to the meditation, and gaining control of our mind, inner seeing, inner hearing, etc.. Whatever spiritual wealth we gain during our life will be available at the time of death. Emily Dickinson has referred to all of this: FAITH is a fine invention   For gentlemen who see;   But microscopes are prudent   In an emergency! MM: When we see the Master, we will get the maximum benefit, if we can have faith in him.  Emily points out that "inner seeing," is more beneficial to us "in an emergency," which is the time of death. Microscopes bring things closer to us; they make things clearer to us.  Maharaj Ji Charan Singh used to say that the inner vision was like "looking in a glass."  I suppose he meant through binoculars, a telescope, or perhaps a microscope.  Emily is referring to this same inner vision.  The wise man/woman will make developing this inner vision the most important thing in his life. Michael — Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Dear Michael: You are talking about the ideas of other people, I prefer to know your own ideas,and info,and knowledge, stories from some other people about death and spirit and this cannot be correct,unless we experience it,it is not our knowledge.It  the second or third hand pieces of stories. Which spirit you are talking about?Is that the one that Medical science shows, psyhcology,or the one that religious holy books talk? There is only mind,mind is a function of the brain,so no spirit at all… No reincarnation neither… If you believe bible, can you explain the firsts humans, where is the reincarnation over there. These put people on hallucinations. The most important is your own ideas, not some body else`s. Let us here your own experiences without giving grounds on other people… The aim of YOGA is to be aware of, to get rid of all the conditioned minds,Meditation is the tool for this, but what you are talking is not meditation it is hypnosis, taht is conditioning… Compassionately, bothi

Response:

Well said. An intellectual that has perfect understanding of the philosophy of reincarnation and believes it will say I am not afraid of death all his life. But when death comes knocking he will fear it. Fearlessness comes from Self-Realization. In that instant fear of death vanishes forever. Pain before death is another matter. We stand as gateways between inner and outer space. Mike Dubbeld

That’s right, Mike.  Another thing about death is,that we will be judged.  Our whole life will be judged.  Saints will stand as a ransom for us, if we have faith in them.  If we have a Master, we will not have to be judged by any of Satan’s agents.  They will not give any mercy.  They give a precise punishment.  An eye for an eye,and a tooth for a tooth.  Would a son, who has done wrong, want to be judged by a Judge, whether Federal, Municipal, Satan’s Judge, or by his Father? The Father would be the best choice, because then there would be a love behind the punishment.  The Bible said, in respect to this, "Christ stood as a ransom for many."  The Father would not want a full payment of the punishment.  He would be inclined to acquit the son, out of his love for him. Regarding the inner vision, the Bible mentioned, "How great is the darness."  If we follow a Master, do our meditation, then we can replace the darkness with light.  It is much less fearful to go forward in "light," rather than darkness.  And, if we have developed our inner vision, to a high enough plane, then nothing could pull us back to this world.  That would mean freedom from further reincarnations in this world.  Some people love this world, and some would rather not ever return here, again.  So, that decision is up to us.  Saints have tried to tell us that this world is all illusion, and encourage us to go to our True Home, far above all sufferings, dissolutions, deaths, etc., etc.  It would behoove us, if we would follow them, but that’s our personal decision. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Masters at Beas have always emphasized that we must start with faith in the Sat Guru.  Starting with love, faith, and devotion, then we should attend to our daily meditation.  When we are able to concentrate the mind and soul at the third eye center, then we will experience the light and sound within, and ultimately meet the Master’s Radiant Form.  When we meet his form, then we can leave the body at will.  Then our inner vision, and inner hearing, will be opened. Those who are able to leave the body at will, will have no problem at the time of death, as they have become used to leaving the body, and using the inner vision, and inner hearing.  Soami Ji Maharaj mentioned this in his "last commandments."  He used the analogy that a swimmer will not drown, if thrown into the river, but one who doesn’t know swimming would drown.  Death can be frightful if we are not prepared for it.  We should prepare ourselves, now, by attending to the meditation, and gaining control of our mind, inner seeing, inner hearing, etc.. Whatever spiritual wealth we gain during our life will be available at the time of death. Emily Dickinson has referred to all of this: FAITH is a fine invention For gentlemen who see; But microscopes are prudent In an emergency! MM: When we see the Master, we will get the maximum benefit, if we can have faith in him.  Emily points out that "inner seeing," is more beneficial to us "in an emergency," which is the time of death. Microscopes bring things closer to us; they make things clearer to us.  Maharaj Ji Charan Singh used to say that the inner vision was like "looking in a glass."  I suppose he meant through binoculars, a telescope, or perhaps a microscope.  Emily is referring to this same inner vision.  The wise man/woman will make developing this inner vision the most important thing in his life.

Michael — Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

Well said. An intellectual that has perfect understanding of the philosophy of reincarnation and believes it will say I am not afraid of death all his life. But when death comes knocking he will fear it. Fearlessness comes from Self-Realization. In that instant fear of death vanishes forever. Pain before death is another matter. We stand as gateways between inner and outer space. Mike Dubbeld

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Masters at Beas have always emphasized that we must start with faith in the Sat Guru.  Starting with love, faith, and devotion, then we should attend to our daily meditation.  When we are able to concentrate the mind and soul at the third eye center, then we will experience the light and sound within, and ultimately meet the Master’s Radiant Form.  When we meet his form, then we can leave the body at will.  Then our inner vision, and inner hearing, will be opened. Those who are able to leave the body at will, will have no problem at the time of death, as they have become used to leaving the body, and using the inner vision, and inner hearing.  Soami Ji Maharaj mentioned this in his "last commandments."  He used the analogy that a swimmer will not drown, if thrown into the river, but one who doesn’t know swimming would drown.  Death can be frightful if we are not prepared for it.  We should prepare ourselves, now, by attending to the meditation, and gaining control of our mind, inner seeing, inner hearing, etc.. Whatever spiritual wealth we gain during our life will be available at the time of death. Emily Dickinson has referred to all of this: FAITH is a fine invention For gentlemen who see; But microscopes are prudent In an emergency! MM: When we see the Master, we will get the maximum benefit, if we can have faith in him.  Emily points out that "inner seeing," is more beneficial to us "in an emergency," which is the time of death. Microscopes bring things closer to us; they make things clearer to us.  Maharaj Ji Charan Singh used to say that the inner vision was like "looking in a glass."  I suppose he meant through binoculars, a telescope, or perhaps a microscope.  Emily is referring to this same inner vision.  The wise man/woman will make developing this inner vision the most important thing in his life. Michael — Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

The Masters at Beas have always emphasized that we must start with faith in the Sat Guru.  Starting with love, faith, and devotion, then we should attend to our daily meditation.  When we are able to concentrate the mind and soul at the third eye center, then we will experience the light and sound within, and ultimately meet the Master’s Radiant Form.  When we meet his form, then we can leave the body at will.  Then our inner vision, and inner hearing, will be opened. Those who are able to leave the body at will, will have no problem at the time of death, as they have become used to leaving the body, and using the inner vision, and inner hearing.  Soami Ji Maharaj mentioned this in his "last commandments."  He used the analogy that a swimmer will not drown, if thrown into the river, but one who doesn’t know swimming would drown.  Death can be frightful if we are not prepared for it.  We should prepare ourselves, now, by attending to the meditation, and gaining control of our mind, inner seeing, inner hearing, etc.. Whatever spiritual wealth we gain during our life will be available at the time of death. Emily Dickinson has referred to all of this: FAITH is a fine invention   For gentlemen who see;   But microscopes are prudent   In an emergency! MM: When we see the Master, we will get the maximum benefit, if we can have faith in him.  Emily points out that "inner seeing," is more beneficial to us "in an emergency," which is the time of death. Microscopes bring things closer to us; they make things clearer to us.  Maharaj Ji Charan Singh used to say that the inner vision was like "looking in a glass."  I suppose he meant through binoculars, a telescope, or perhaps a microscope.  Emily is referring to this same inner vision.  The wise man/woman will make developing this inner vision the most important thing in his life. Michael — Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

Question:

[snip] . Though there is a lot more to the discipline of yoga, there is nothing wrong with doing yoga for its wonderful physical benefits.

Yes, thanks for mentioning that.  I should have said that one of the other reasons I am considering yoga is because I am also interested in the more ’spiritual’ side of things, and yoga does incorporate this. J

Response:

am looking at different ways to improve fitness and yoga is on my list of options.  

Why not give it a try? It sounds like it will fit in well with your routine and you’ll get strength, flexibility, and a whole lot more from it. Since you can’t fit a class into your schedule now, try a tape. The Yoga Journal tapes are good to start with, and I’d read some books too so you can get more details on alignment. If you find that you like it, you might want to look for a class later on so a teacher can help you with the fine details. Best wishes…

Response:

Here’s my 2 cents worth. The Kundalini is out of reach of the mental and emotional areas of  human beings. This can be substantiated by looking at the subtle system and the connections between it and the sympathetic and para-sympathetic nervous system. The functioning of the left and right sympathetics are known by medical science while little is known about the para-sympathetic. The sympathetics are the gross aspects of the IDA and Pingala channels or the left and right channels (sun and moon channels of Hatha Yoga). The right channel connects to the left brain  and deals with our thinking, planning, futuristic thinking, technology etc. It also has to do with the conscious and supra conscious minds. The left channel connects to the right brain and has to do with the past, the subconscious, emotions, caring qualities, reflections, memory, the id personality etc. The Kundalini resides in the sacrum bone (Greeks might have known about this) and has no connection with the left or right sympathetic. Any activity which we undertake is of the left channel (subconscious mind) or right channel (conscious mind). Hence any so called attempt to raise the kundalini will result in failure as you cannot reach it via the left and right channel. Hence what people have described in their ignorance as kundalini awakening is not kundalini awakening at all. They are really going into their psychic areas in the left or subconscious area or the right side or conscious/supra conscious area and disturbing those areas – hence the insanity claims. Its like someone without knowledge of surgery slashing around someone’s viscera thinking they are trying to fix them. In this case we are slashing around in our own viscera. Now about the Kundalini and its descriptions from ancient scriptures. It is shown  to be a gentle energy like a mother waiting for its child to get ready so that it can give it the longed for knowledge of its roots and origins. Its tendency is to rise against the force of gravity.  Its an intelligent energy far beyond the intelligence we can hope to have. It is superior to our minds – hence it is the only force which can take us beyond mind. It cannot be abused as it follows all the laws of natural flows of energy, correcting the imbalances in us as it flows. Being many stranded it will also rise based on the capacity of the person, its child, strand by strand.  As a mothering energy it knows how to nurse its child as a mother would when we are born, gradually bringing it to maturity in its spiritual development. Next the parasympathetic and its real purpose. It corresponds to the central channel and comes into full play, connecting us to the present area of consciousness within ourselves after the kundalini is awakened. The left and right sides, you guessed, correspond to the past and future resp. What is the present in reality?  When a thought rises and falls, there is a small moment of time (the present) before another thought rises and falls. That small moment of time is the time which corresponds to the central channel. When the Kundalini rises it takes us beyond thought and also widens the time between thoughts – thus bringing us in connection with the present (central area of our being) and also with our entire being. The actualization of this happening is the manifestation of a cool breeze on the hands and above the head as described in many of the scriptures, chaitanya lahiri, cool breeze of the holy ghost etc. Look at mythological pictures where they show a fountain above the head of a meditator. Lord Buddha called it the middle path quite literally because that’s where the kundalini rises, in central channel. Lord Jesus Christ talks about when your eye is single your body is full of light. The singleness comes from becoming connected to the single present allowing you to see things from an absolute point of view rather than from the relative areas of the left and right sides i.e. mind and emotions. How is the Kundalini really awakened?  There is single prerequisite. You must be in the presence of a realized soul or someone in whom the Kundalini is awakened. Next question why?   Remember earlier we said that you cannot reach the Kundalini with your mind via the sympathetics. That’s why.  Now if you go back two paragraphs  "The actualization…"   you will see it says the awakening manifests as a cool flowing breeze of energy.  So in one in whom the Kundalini is awakened the energy rises pierces the fontanel bone (fountain bone – again implying some connection with Kundalini and its working) area and comes out as a fountain of energy and flows down through the brain, sympathetic nervous system (cooling and balancing it), then throughout the body and  into the atmosphere via the skin, hands and feet. This energy which flows into the atmosphere is absorbed by people around and triggers the kundalini in them. Hence the need for someone in whom the kundalini is awakened. Once the awakening has taken place then it can slowly, through various practices, be brought into your conscious awareness and be raised at will. The last thing – what is Meditation and Yoga?  Meditation is the state of being when the Kundalini is at crown chakra or Sahasrar Chakra when you are in a state of thoughtless awareness. Yoga is the state of union where your spirit is connected with the universal spirit. Both these take place when the Kundalini reaches the Sahasrar Chakra. Yoga is not the set of contortions that people put themselves through indiscriminately. The exercises were designed by ancient people because of a specific need. The need was to correct imbalances in themselves which prevented them from going deeper into meditation. The exercises were for specific problems.  By the indiscriminate use of these exercise one will only bring further grief to oneself . OK you have benefited from the exercises. Know that any form of stressing, tensing and relaxing will make one feel good in the short term – but what of the long term effects. Now before you rush out to find somebody who has their kundalini raised, digest all the information thoroughly, before doing so.  Ask leading questions. If  they cannot answer – is it because they don’t know or have not had their kundalinis awakened.  Don’t let mystery or secrecy about the whole thing stop you. Some people make it sound mysterious to avoid answering questions. Check these sites:  http://www.freemeditation.com  http://www.sahajayoga.org Rajen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking at different ways to improve fitness and yoga is on my list of options.  I am already pretty fit – I cycle regularly, sometimes run and do Aikido 2 times a week.  But.. I’m looking for something which will fit into my routine and help build strength (not just bulk) and flexibility. One option seems to be to do some weight training and a stretching routine. Another is to do yoga.  Downside to this is that although I have some time available, I can’t really commit to an evening out to attend any sort of class. Any suggestions/comments? Will yoga help me towards my goals?  Will it do the job without me resorting to weights, or can the two be used side by side, or is there no point? What’s the best way to learn solo – can it be done? I have found a couple of websites which give some (seemingly) good information -www.yogasite.com  and www.yogajournal.com  .  Any other good sites worth a visit? Thanks. J

Response:

Yoga will build strength and flexibility- especially the more physically demanding types of yoga like the Americanized version of Astanga: Power Yoga. If you do martial arts you may take very well to the movements of yoga. Though there is a lot more to the discipline of yoga, there is nothing wrong with doing yoga for its wonderful physical benefits. I do yoga, weights and cardio. I think yoga as a strength building discipline may not yield as dramatic results as you might expect, though I imagine you’d achieve an incredibly lithe, flexible, and strong body if your main workout was a demanding daily physical yoga practice. And, yes- yoga and weight training go well together. Depending on your experience with movement, you can learn yoga from books and videos. Good luck- Namaste- M beati pacifici  - blessed are the peacemakers "JSP" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking at different ways to improve fitness and yoga is on my list of options.  I am already pretty fit – I cycle regularly, sometimes run and do Aikido 2 times a week.  But.. I’m looking for something which will fit into my routine and help build strength (not just bulk) and flexibility. One option seems to be to do some weight training and a stretching routine. Another is to do yoga.  Downside to this is that although I have some time available, I can’t really commit to an evening out to attend any sort of class. Any suggestions/comments? Will yoga help me towards my goals?  Will it do the job without me resorting to weights, or can the two be used side by side, or is there no point? What’s the best way to learn solo – can it be done? I have found a couple of websites which give some (seemingly) good information -www.yogasite.com  and www.yogajournal.com  .  Any other good sites worth a visit? Thanks. J

Response:

I am looking at different ways to improve fitness and yoga is on my list of options.  I am already pretty fit – I cycle regularly, sometimes run and do Aikido 2 times a week.  But.. I’m looking for something which will fit into my routine and help build strength (not just bulk) and flexibility. One option seems to be to do some weight training and a stretching routine. Another is to do yoga.  Downside to this is that although I have some time available, I can’t really commit to an evening out to attend any sort of class. Any suggestions/comments? Will yoga help me towards my goals?  Will it do the job without me resorting to weights, or can the two be used side by side, or is there no point? What’s the best way to learn solo – can it be done? I have found a couple of websites which give some (seemingly) good information -www.yogasite.com  and www.yogajournal.com  .  Any other good sites worth a visit? Thanks. J

Response:

Question:

J wrote in message …

even though i am an adult now, i still have hard time relating to people who are ‘above’ me, e.g. my yoga instructor, my boss, my boss’ boss, my uni teacher, my pastor. this is even worse because many times these people are close to my age.  i cannot speak to them as my equal, my peer.  i usually turn rather self-conscious, and hardly can speak to them. do other ppl have had this problem?  what is a method for overcoming this? what methods have ppl tried?  what thoughts do ppl think to defeat the mind?

I have never had a problem with authority figures and actually I would consider myself less shy speaking to them. Even at primary school I remember having a heated conversation with the headmaster with no fear whatsoever. I have never had much respect for authority but I usually just knuckle down and accept it as a part of life. I don’t think your "problem" is really all that rare and I would even question whether it is possible to have a normal relationship (i.e. true friends) with someone who has more power than you, or someone who has less power than you for that matter. It has become clearer and clearer in the past few years of my mostly unsuccessful attempts at socialisation that you have to be at the same peer level as the other people if you want to be part of their group. It’s possible to be friends with nearly everyone but to get to the next level of closeness, where you feel part of their group and there are enough opportunities to lead to more friendships and relationships, you have to be at the same level as the group. That is what I have concluded from my own experience and from observing the people around me. The younger group consists of young people. The well-paid group consists of the richer people. The manager group consists of managers. All these people socialise with each other, share their life experiences and help each other out. My suggestion is that you concentrate your efforts on socialising with your peer group because that is where you will reep most benefit. If you try to socialise with any other group then your social life will just smoulder away, when what you really want to experience is the warmth of true friendships and firey passionate relationships.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Unfortunately the only thing that I have found helpful is practice :/ it took me 2 years to get comfortable with asking questions of my lecturers.  About half way through first year I made a deliberate choice to think up stuff to ask so that i could practice, it worked to some extent.  Most people are decent, even if they are "authority" figures.  I hated talking to my boss, but it was getting easier before I left that job.  (On the other hand I would have no clue how to interact with or relate to these people in a prolonged (10 minutes) or different, for instance, social, situation, but that’s not so important at the moment.) Would it help if you talked yourself up before talking to someone in authority?  Stuff like, "This person is no better than me, he/she is just a yoga instructor, they are not trying to intimidate me, this situation might be uncomfortable but I can handle it and it will get easier" Sometimes telling yourself these things – EVEN IF YOU DONT BELIEVE THEM – just repeating them to yourself, will help.

i already have a set of affirmations.  i have to make it a bit larger to include dealing with authority figures.  as i found out recently, when i interact with ppl usually it is not for casual interaction, but i see it as seeking approval (will they like me or not?). in my case, authority figures do worsen this fear of rejection.  i have found affirmations helpful, but, as you suggested, i need to practice them for a while until it becomes second nature.

BTW, in my own experience, if an encounter went badly, it takes some effort to not let myself descend into self-pity and whiny accusations of my own uselessness.  I have not mastered this but occasionally I will have the strength to say to myself at least I tried, and it will get better.  More often, I will just whine =) ~andy~

lately, i have been better to myself regarding bad experiences.  i am able to pat in my back much easier preventing going into self-pity.  i try to not let one bad thing blacken the whole effort or the other good things. j

Response:

Cool, how’s yoga?  I was thinking of taking it.

yoga is cool. i enjoy some types of yoga more than others.  i am fortunate to have one teacher who emphasizes the breathing/meditation aspects of yoga, this i enjoy the most.

Yeah I still have this problem somewhat.  I think it’s linked to

self-esteem

(as most problems are, IMO).  You just have to convince yourself that they’re no better than you even though they may be of a higher rank.  You have to respect yourself.  We all follow our own paths in life and if yours may be "lower" than theirs in terms of rank, that’s

okay.

You just gotta be happy with that.

thanks for these thoughts. probably like many others, i have a long history of putting myself down, which makes me even lower if i have inferiority complex by being in a ‘lower’ rank.  i will think about this issue a bit further and start working on changing my mind ‘language’ like many posters have suggested thru affirmations and social experiments .  j

Response:

From: "themoodykid" <themoody…@yahoo.ca

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"J" <js…@worldnet.att.net wrote in message news:qkQq7.5253$3d2.413344@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… even though i am an adult now, i still have hard time relating to people who are ‘above’ me, e.g. my yoga instructor, my boss, my boss’ boss, my uni teacher, my pastor. Cool, how’s yoga?  I was thinking of taking it. this is even worse because many times these people are close to my age.  i cannot speak to them as my equal, my peer.  i usually turn rather self-conscious, and hardly can speak to them. do other ppl have had this problem?  what is a method for overcoming this? what methods have ppl tried?  what thoughts do ppl think to defeat the mind? Yeah I still have this problem somewhat.  I think it’s linked to

self-esteem

(as most problems are, IMO).

There could be more to the story.   Many shybies’ shness was triggered by a bad experience (or bad experiences) with authority figures, such as an abusive teacher.  Later bad experiences with them (such as being fired – blah!) can reinforce those fears. I have had no success at solving this problem, FWIW.

Response:

"naturallyweird" <naturallywe…@yahoo.com

wrote in message

news:d29812ea.0109230921.1d41dc85@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> From: "themoodykid" <themoody…@yahoo.ca> > > "J" <js…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

> > news:qkQq7.5253$3d2.413344@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… > > > even though i am an adult now, i still have hard time > > > relating to people who are ‘above’ me, e.g. my yoga > > > instructor, my boss, my boss’ boss, my uni teacher, my pastor. > > Cool, how’s yoga?  I was thinking of taking it. > > > this is even worse because many times these people are > > > close to my age.  i cannot speak to them as my equal, > > > my peer.  i usually turn rather self-conscious, and hardly > > > can speak to them. > > > do other ppl have had this problem?  what > > > is a method for overcoming this? what methods have ppl > > > tried?  what thoughts do ppl think to defeat the mind? > > Yeah I still have this problem somewhat.  I think it’s linked to > self-esteem > > (as most problems are, IMO). > There could be more to the story.   Many shybies’ shness was triggered > by a > bad experience (or bad experiences) with authority figures, such as an > abusive teacher.  Later bad experiences with them (such as being fired > – blah!) can reinforce those fears.

Yes, you do have a point.  However, one with a healthy sense of self-esteem will be less affected by criticisms.  He or she is more likely to look at the criticism and accept it as valid or not.  If it’s valid, this person will look at what changes he/she needs to make.  If it’s not valid, they’ll put it aside and not think too much about it.  Additionally, extensive criticisms on one with poor self-esteem (untreated) can only make it worse.

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When I fight authority, authority always wins. : )

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andy_roginus <andy_rogi…@hotmail.com

wrote: In contrast when i have to speak to an "authority" figure who is not in conflict with me, it is difficult for a different reason, because in most Australian uni’s students are on first-name terms with their lecturers, and I don’t find them approachable in that way, so I am confused as to what to call them.  "Professor So-and-so" just sounds anally retentive.  I can’t bring myself to call them "Bill" or whatever so I just don’t use their names, and just say "excuse me" or start talking, which is very rude.

yeah, me too, emailing lecturers is even worse, I never know what to say

Unfortunately the only thing that I have found helpful is practice :/ it took me 2 years to get comfortable with asking questions of my lecturers.  About half way through first year I made a deliberate choice to think up stuff to ask so that i could practice, it worked to some extent.  Most people are decent, even if they are "authority" figures.  I hated talking to my boss, but it was getting easier before I left that job.  (On the other hand I would have no clue how to interact with or relate to these people in a prolonged (10 minutes) or different, for instance, social, situation, but that’s not so important at the moment.)

that’s good, have a star * Beckie — Don’t worry.  You won’t say anything stupid.  It’ll be fine.                                                         -Neil Gaiman

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themoodykid <themoody…@yahoo.ca

wrote in message

news:55ar7.105752$j65.22625352@news4.rdc1.on.home.com… (Snip)

Yeah I still have this problem somewhat.  I think it’s linked to

self-esteem

(as most problems are, IMO).  You just have to convince yourself that they’re no better than you even though they may be of a higher rank.  You have to respect yourself.  We all follow our own paths in life and if yours may be "lower" than theirs in terms of rank, that’s

okay.

You just gotta be happy with that. Being self-conscious likely means you’re afraid of making a fool of yourself in front of these folks and so are more cautious.  Like I said, you just have to change how you perceive yourself in their eyes.

    I once had a guitar teacher (I’m VERY hoping this is relavent) that told me he would LOVE to work with me show me this or that, because he has stuff he wants to teach someone else, and (this is the part that got me the most.) he knows (KNOWS) I have something to teach him. Now on a guitar playing level I didn’t think I had much to offer, but in the end my points of view, and things I’ve learned from different artists broadend his horizons as well. We did learn alot from each other, the reasons I did this, how to do that. I don’t think this is just held down to guitar lessons though, I’m pretty sure on a much grander scale, you can and will teach some more knowledgable than you something, as well as benefitting from their experience. That last sentence was what I was getting at I think. – Space Fluffy

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"J" <js…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

news:qkQq7.5253$3d2.413344@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net…

even though i am an adult now, i still have hard time relating to people who are ‘above’ me, e.g. my yoga instructor, my boss, my boss’ boss, my uni teacher, my pastor.

Cool, how’s yoga?  I was thinking of taking it.

this is even worse because many times these people are close to my age.  i cannot speak to them as my equal, my peer.  i usually turn rather self-conscious, and hardly can speak to them. do other ppl have had this problem?  what is a method for overcoming this? what methods have ppl tried?  what thoughts do ppl think to defeat the mind?

Yeah I still have this problem somewhat.  I think it’s linked to self-esteem (as most problems are, IMO).  You just have to convince yourself that they’re no better than you even though they may be of a higher rank.  You have to respect yourself.  We all follow our own paths in life and if yours may be "lower" than theirs in terms of rank, that’s okay. You just gotta be happy with that. Being self-conscious likely means you’re afraid of making a fool of yourself in front of these folks and so are more cautious.  Like I said, you just have to change how you perceive yourself in their eyes.

Response:

even though i am an adult now, i still have hard time relating to people who are ‘above’ me, e.g. my yoga instructor, my boss, my boss’ boss, my uni teacher, my pastor. this is even worse because many times these people are close to my age.  i cannot speak to them as my equal, my peer.  i usually turn rather self-conscious, and hardly can speak to them. do other ppl have had this problem?  what is a method for overcoming this? what methods have ppl tried?  what thoughts do ppl think to defeat the mind? j

Response:

J <js…@worldnet.att.net

wrote: this is even worse because many times these people are close to my age.  i cannot speak to them as my equal, my peer.  i usually turn rather self-conscious, and hardly can speak to them.

yeah, I feel like that.  I forget that some of them are the same age as me or as people I have no problem talking to, they seem older and more intimidating for some reason, sorry, no advice for how to stop it though Beckie — Don’t worry.  You won’t say anything stupid.  It’ll be fine.                                                         -Neil Gaiman

Response:

"J" <js…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message <news:qkQq7.5253$3d2.413344@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… even though i am an adult now, i still have hard time relating to people who are ‘above’ me, e.g. my yoga instructor, my boss, my boss’ boss, my uni teacher, my pastor. this is even worse because many times these people are close to my age.  i cannot speak to them as my equal, my peer.  i usually turn rather self-conscious, and hardly can speak to them. do other ppl have had this problem?  what is a method for overcoming this? what methods have ppl tried?  what thoughts do ppl think to defeat the mind? j

Interesting.  I kinda have that problem, but it seems situational, and I haven’t yet found the formula as to what brings on fear of authority for me.  I know it has something to do with conflict or nastiness though.  For instance, when a cop pulled me over for speeding, when i had to argue with the administrative people at university to bend the rules (unsuccessfully =( bleh), when i got caught without a train ticket.  after all of these incidents i was shaking, palms sweating, heart pounding and flooded with adrenaline. In contrast when i have to speak to an "authority" figure who is not in conflict with me, it is difficult for a different reason, because in most Australian uni’s students are on first-name terms with their lecturers, and I don’t find them approachable in that way, so I am confused as to what to call them.  "Professor So-and-so" just sounds anally retentive.  I can’t bring myself to call them "Bill" or whatever so I just don’t use their names, and just say "excuse me" or start talking, which is very rude. Unfortunately the only thing that I have found helpful is practice :/ it took me 2 years to get comfortable with asking questions of my lecturers.  About half way through first year I made a deliberate choice to think up stuff to ask so that i could practice, it worked to some extent.  Most people are decent, even if they are "authority" figures.  I hated talking to my boss, but it was getting easier before I left that job.  (On the other hand I would have no clue how to interact with or relate to these people in a prolonged (

10 minutes)

or different, for instance, social, situation, but that’s not so important at the moment.) Would it help if you talked yourself up before talking to someone in authority?  Stuff like, "This person is no better than me, he/she is just a yoga instructor, they are not trying to intimidate me, this situation might be uncomfortable but I can handle it and it will get easier" Sometimes telling yourself these things – EVEN IF YOU DONT BELIEVE THEM – just repeating them to yourself, will help. BTW, in my own experience, if an encounter went badly, it takes some effort to not let myself descend into self-pity and whiny accusations of my own uselessness.  I have not mastered this but occasionally I will have the strength to say to myself at least I tried, and it will get better.  More often, I will just whine =) ~andy~

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