Question:

Another thought-provoking post, thanks, Bob.  We really are all adrift in boats, aren’t we?  One man’s drug is another’s horror.  So we can go with stats (which, as you observe are paltry, and don’t exist for comparison purposes) or on personal observation.  For what it’s worth, I’ve never been on Klonopin, so cannot compare.  I’ve been on Xanax about 6 years, have absolutely no trouble getting going in the morning (perhaps because that early morning T high point is best relieved by getting going).  Do I dream? Intensely!  I would hope so!  Drowsy? Occasionally, but more due to fatigue accompanying hearing loss and FAR less than before taking Xanax for sleep deprivation from T.  Did Xanax lower my T?  Not appreciably, but I have a severe case, with deafness.  It seems to lower T for some people, but that’s no sure thing; it’s no miracle drug, and most assuredly not the cure we are all hoping for.  Wish you luck.  It seems we must each skipper our own boat…Mary

Response:

In article <NE685.6287$4C4.112…@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com

, "John

Goddard" <john.godda…@virgin.net

writes: Can anyone tell what’s so special about Xanax for treating tinnitus when it’s only one of a large group of benzodiazepines?  Why not diazepam itself (cheap generic drug)? John

As I recall, Dr Jack Vernon, now semi retired is the person who popularised Xanax as a tinnitus treatment.  I recall him saying that if he was young enough to continue in research he would like to research onther drugs in the same group. So I think he would agree with your point. Tony J

Response:

On 08 Jul 2000 15:46:10 GMT, tonyjef…@aol.comTonyJ (TonyJeffs2) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

In article <NE685.6287$4C4.112…@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com, "John Goddard" <john.godda…@virgin.net writes: Can anyone tell what’s so special about Xanax for treating tinnitus when it’s only one of a large group of benzodiazepines?  Why not diazepam itself (cheap generic drug)? John As I recall, Dr Jack Vernon, now semi retired is the person who popularised Xanax as a tinnitus treatment.  I recall him saying that if he was young enough to continue in research he would like to research onther drugs in the same group.  So I think he would agree with your point. Tony J

Tony: Has the Doctor (or anyone else) stated a position on long term use of Xanax ?  I’ve been using it for 19 years now — the only trouble I ever had over it was when I read Dr. Jastreboff’s quote that he felt it "inhibited the habituation process".  I tried to taper off it over the 3 months before my visit to him — absolute disaster — I couldn’t believe T could get so loud and irritating. It took another 3 months of little sleep to restore my ‘charma’ of T treatment. I haven’t corresponded with many people who have taken X for a comparable time period. Bob D. Long Island, NY dimarco_…@mindspring.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -TonyJeffs2 wrote:

"John Goddard" <john.godda…@virgin.net writes: Can anyone tell what’s so special about Xanax for treating tinnitus when it’s only one of a large group of benzodiazepines?  Why not diazepam itself (cheap generic drug)? John As I recall, Dr Jack Vernon, now semi retired is the person who popularised Xanax as a tinnitus treatment.  I recall him saying that if he was young enough to continue in research he would like to research on ther drugs in the same group. So I think he would agree with your point. Tony J

—————– Actually, Tony, I spoke to Jack Vernon last week, and he was unwillingly to extrapolate the benefits of any benzo other than xanax, as there has never been a controlled study on their benefits. Having read a report on the 1991 study on xanax itself, it’s hard to figure out anything conclusive. It may well be that certain benzos do the job on tinnitus better than others, for whatever unknown reason–or that some people have better success with some than others. Despite Vernon’s very professional attitude in not applying information on xanax to other benzos, I was just reading the book that Vernon edited himself: "Tinnitus: Treatment and Relief," where, on p. 14, Dr. Ross Coles of the Institute of Hearing Research, University Park, Nottingham, UK, says that he "personally favor[s] clonazepam (klonopin) since it is less addictive [apparently rather questionable] and seems to work in a very low dosage (0.5 to 2 mg a day)….Xanax has been used for this purpose in the United States but is banned for use in the United Kingdom [is this still true, Tony?] because of its highly addictive properties." In reading the report on the original xanax study in the US, there were considerable problems with daytime drowsiness, difficulty with "getting going" in the morning, as well as an increase in dreams [strangely, my doctor told me that benzos tend to suppress dreams, while I have found that neither extreme is true for me]. I’m on klonopin, and have found that while 0.75 mg seems to cause some depression and "droopiness," a tiny reduction to 0.625 mg solves this. Very strange. I must be very sensitive to this. I was wondering whether to switch to xanax since so many people have reported good success levels with it, and I haven’t heard a word about klonopin (clonazepam), nor has it been especially wonderful for my tinnitus, but now I’m not so sure that any benefit would be gained. Thoughts, folks? Bob Seletsky <mem…@sprintmail.com

Response:

I’m just bewildered to think of any child on Xanax. Surely there was no double-blind study on children. If children are on Xanax, their learning problems may stem from other problems besides neuroplasticity concerns. I wish someone would reassure me there really are not a lot of kids on Xanax. Mary

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -e…@my-deja.com wrote:

I am presently undergoing TRT. When I began TRT I was on Xanax and upon the recommendation of my clinician, I slowly tapered off.   It was difficult and my tinnitus did get worse during this process– but it sure was worth it.  My habituation did markedly improve, once I was off Xanax.  Dr. Nagler is WRONG (yes folks, Dr. Nagler can be wrong also) when he states that it is only theoretical that benzodiazepenes inhibit neuroplasticity.  It is well documented, for example, that learning is adversely affected in children who are on drugs such as Xanax.  Learning occurs as a consequence of neuroplasticity and I have heard of recent studies that have demonstrated that benzodiazepenes do indeed inhibit neuroplasticity.   In addition, once the brain adjusts to a new homeostasis, the Xanax has no effect upon tinnitus and then the patient is faced with two choices: a) slowly going off Xanax and the consequent increase in tinnitus or b) permanently staying on Xanax without any benefit.

………… Well, I’ll stand by my original statement. So now you have two opinions! And I most certainly CAN be wrong.  (Just not this time.) smn

Response:

I am presently undergoing TRT. When I began TRT I was on Xanax and upon the recommendation of my clinician, I slowly tapered off.   It was difficult and my tinnitus did get worse during this process– but it sure was worth it.  My habituation did markedly improve, once I was off Xanax.  Dr. Nagler is WRONG (yes folks, Dr. Nagler can be wrong also) when he states that it is only theoretical that benzodiazepenes inhibit neuroplasticity.  It is well documented, for example, that learning is adversely affected in children who are on drugs such as Xanax.  Learning occurs as a consequence of neuroplasticity and I have heard of recent studies that have demonstrated that benzodiazepenes do indeed inhibit neuroplasticity.   In addition, once the brain adjusts to a new homeostasis, the Xanax has no effect upon tinnitus and then the patient is faced with two choices: a) slowly going off Xanax and the consequent increase in tinnitus or b) permanently staying on Xanax without any benefit. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

dimarco_…@mindspring.com (Bob DiMarco) wrote:

Has the Doctor (or anyone else) stated a position on long term use of Xanax ?  I’ve been using it for 19 years now — the only trouble I ever had over it was when I read Dr. Jastreboff’s quote that he felt it "inhibited the habituation process".  I tried to taper off it over the 3 months before my visit to him — absolute disaster — I couldn’t believe T could get so loud and irritating.

……… Dr. Vernon has absolutely no problem with recommending Xanax for long term use. stephen nagler

Response:

On Sat, 08 Jul 2000 17:22:54 GMT, nag…@tinn.com (Stephen Nagler) wrote:

……… Dr. Vernon has absolutely no problem with recommending Xanax for long term use. stephen nagler

Doctor: Thank you — it’s reassuring to hear.  My wife also has T now along with Meniere’s and participates in the MDG Meniere’s group.  LOTS of folks there think of xanax as the ‘medicine from hell’.  Since T is a small portion of the Meniere’s problems, I guess I’m not seeing a complete picture. Thanks again, Bob D. Long Island, NY dimarco_…@mindspring.com

Response:

Hi T-people, Ive read your thread about Xanax and cant but wonder. I have been on Valium about 20 yrs (started with 4 times 10 mg per day, after 10 yrs: 6 times 5 mg per day, trying to get that down on my own -works best for me- to right now 2 1/2 pills of 5mg per day). Valium is diazepam. So is Xanax. What is so special about Xanax? Why does anyone think it works for T? BTW: I started to cut down my diazepam by myself with little bits about 6 yrs ago, so no ’sudden’ changes have been made. I have T + H since 3 months, do I have to take MORE diazepam??? (If I get it at all…) Maya. PS Diazepam is addictive. Takes long to get ‘off’ it. So??? Maya. "Stephen Nagler" <nag…@tinn.com

wrote in message

news:39676334.421252924@news.mindspring.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

dimarco_…@mindspring.com (Bob DiMarco) wrote: Has the Doctor (or anyone else) stated a position on long term use of Xanax ?  I’ve been using it for 19 years now — the only trouble I ever had over it was when I read Dr. Jastreboff’s quote that he felt it "inhibited the habituation process".  I tried to taper off it over the 3 months before my visit to him — absolute disaster — I couldn’t believe T could get so loud and irritating. ……… Dr. Vernon has absolutely no problem with recommending Xanax for long term use. stephen nagler

Response:

On Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:39:31 +0200, "Maya Zuiderweg" <ma.zuider…@planet.nl

wrote: Hi T-people, Ive read your thread about Xanax and cant but wonder. I have been on Valium about 20 yrs (started with 4 times 10 mg per day, after 10 yrs: 6 times 5 mg per day, trying to get that down on my own -works best for me- to right now 2 1/2 pills of 5mg per day). Valium is diazepam. So is Xanax. What is so special about Xanax? Why does anyone think it works for T? BTW: I started to cut down my diazepam by myself with little bits about 6 yrs ago, so no ’sudden’ changes have been made. I have T + H since 3 months, do I have to take MORE diazepam??? (If I get it at all…) Maya. PS Diazepam is addictive. Takes long to get ‘off’ it. So??? Maya.

Maya: To my totally unprofessional knowledge, Valium (V) and Xanax (X) are chemically similar.  I read an article about X about 20 years ago and my ENT has been prescribing it for me ever since.  It HAS helped with T reduction and relaxation. For the first few years, it was also a sleep aid — long term use has greatly diminished this benefit. Is this an addiction ? — Good question, don’t really know — It is certainly a dependency at this point. How similar are X and T ? — Another good one — I’ve corresponded with a number of folks in this NG who also take X and are pleased.  When my wife and I have mentioned X in the Meniere’s group where she participates, we found that MANY of the participants greatly prefer V for combined T and balance problems. I couldn’t even begin to guess the effective dosage for T & H — This is definitely a question for your Doctor(s). Good luck witgh your treatment, Bob D. Long Island, NY dimarco_…@mindspring.com

Response:

Are you aware of any studies on the combination of T with significant hearing loss ?

No.  The factor of signficant hearing loss and the treatments for tinnitus are nor presented as correlates in any studies I have read.   I was particularly looking for

TRT results with combined hearing loss — Do those 80 % success numbers hold up, .

Yes.  In this clinic they do, anyway.  Biggest problem group is actually the folks with perfect or near perfect hearing, horrible tinnitus, and profound hyperacusis….regardless of what they doing to help themselves…….. Just my 2 cents. Marsha Johnson, M.S., CCC-A, FAAA Clinic Director/Audiologist, TRTA Member since 1997 Oregon Tinnitus & Hyperacusis Treatment Center (503) 233-5925 -clinic (9-5 PM), (503) 203 5858 voicemail (24 hours) www.tinnitus-audiology.com

Response:

On 02 Jul 2000 20:52:02 GMT, oreg…@aol.com (Marsha Johnson) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Are you aware of any studies on the combination of T with significant hearing loss ? No.  The factor of signficant hearing loss and the treatments for tinnitus are nor presented as correlates in any studies I have read.  I was particularly looking for TRT results with combined hearing loss — Do those 80 % success numbers hold up, . Yes.  In this clinic they do, anyway.  Biggest problem group is actually the folks with perfect or near perfect hearing, horrible tinnitus, and profound hyperacusis….regardless of what they doing to help themselves…….. Just my 2 cents. Marsha Johnson, M.S., CCC-A, FAAA

Marsha: Thank you — your $0.02 is always of great interest to me. When I went to see Dr. Jastreboff in ‘97, these were 2 (of the many) questions that I asked him.  I have no useful hearing but LOUD T in one ear and 55 dB average loss in the other — the main question was "Could I benefit sufficiently from TRT to be worth trying" ?  – He decided not to treat me.  I tried self TRT for about 2 years and got some benefit.  Currently, I’m more pleased with digi BICROS. Thanks again, Bob D. Long Island, NY dimarco_…@mindspring.com

Response:

I go with Bob.  I’ve had T close to half a century.  In my thirties, the sleep deprivation became a real danger to me; I was teetering close to falling asleep driving kids to soccer games and school, etc.  Dr. Vernon corresponded with me and started me on Xanax, which I’ve now taken for 6 years with no problems.  My sleep patterns are completely normal.  Far from being detrimental, Xanax has enhanced the quality of my life immeasurably. For people with really severe T, Xanax deserves some respect and consideration under a physician’s care.  It’s not a cure; it’s certainly not the first thing to try, but for some people Xanax is a tremendous help.

Response:

"Mary Holmes Dague" <dag…@epix.net

wrote: I go with Bob.  I’ve had T close to half a century.  In my thirties, the sleep deprivation became a real danger to me; I was teetering close to falling asleep driving kids to soccer games and school, etc.  Dr. Vernon corresponded with me and started me on Xanax, which I’ve now taken for 6 years with no problems.  My sleep patterns are completely normal.  Far from being detrimental, Xanax has enhanced the quality of my life immeasurably. For people with really severe T, Xanax deserves some respect and consideration under a physician’s care.  It’s not a cure; it’s certainly not the first thing to try, but for some people Xanax is a tremendous help.

……….. I think that most of the objection to Xanax comes from two corners – first, TRT clinicians who have had it drummed into them by Dr. Jastreboff that Xanax theoretically inhibits neuronal plasticity and thereby (again theoretically) impedes tinnitus habituation … and second, from some medical professionals who are just not comfortable with making the type of long-range commitment to a patient sometimes required when placing a patient on benzodiazepines such as Xanax. In terms of the first, I have never seen any studies to support the theoretical contention that Xanax delays habituation.  On the contrary, I have several patients in my own practice who never would have been able to get through TRT and ultimately succeed were it not for pharmacological assistance! In terms of the second, I agree with Marsha that Xanax has several potential side effects, but so does almost every single drug in existence today!  The trick is for the person assuming responsibility for prescribing the drug to clearly understand both the indications AND the potential complications … and to assist the patient in weighing one against the other so that both the patient and the prescribing physician reach a satisfactory comfort level.  And while it is true that there is only one study demonstrating Xanax’s efficacy in tinnitus (not a really great study at that), Xanax HAS withstood "the test of time," having been recommended for use in tinnitus patients for many years … and while not being anything close to a cure, having often been highly effective as an adjunct to treatment (as in Mary’s situation, for instance). In summary, while I feel that Jastreboff’s contributions to the "tinnitus scene" have been extraordinary, I feel that he has unwittingly put unnecessary fear into the minds of many tinnitus patients (and clinicians) who might otherwise consider a drug that can –  when prescribed responsibly and judiciously – effect considerable relief. stephen nagler www.tinn.com

Response:

On Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:59:21 GMT, "Mary Holmes Dague" <dag…@epix.net

wrote: I go with Bob.  I’ve had T close to half a century.  In my thirties, the sleep deprivation became a real danger to me; I was teetering close to falling asleep driving kids to soccer games and school, etc.  Dr. Vernon corresponded with me and started me on Xanax, which I’ve now taken for 6 years with no problems.  My sleep patterns are completely normal.  Far from being detrimental, Xanax has enhanced the quality of my life immeasurably. For people with really severe T, Xanax deserves some respect and consideration under a physician’s care.  It’s not a cure; it’s certainly not the first thing to try, but for some people Xanax is a tremendous help.

Mary: Apparently not too many people agree with us about Xanax. I’m not sure if there are any bonafide studies to back them up.  I’ve only found 1 or 2 other people who have taken Xanax for T for as long as I have.  We all felt that there was a significant difference between a long-term medical dependency and an addiction. Good luck with your treatment, Bob D. Long Island, NY dimarco_…@mindspring.com

Response:

Can anyone tell what’s so special about Xanax for treating tinnitus when it’s only one of a large group of benzodiazepines?  Why not diazepam itself (cheap generic drug)? John

Response:

Bob, you have been on Xanax longer than anyone I know and it encourages me that you have been able to do so (at least until something better comes down the pike).  Dr. Vernon and my physician both say that Xanax isn’t addictive, and I find that too–if I miss a dose it’s no big deal, no craving.  Going off has to be done in steps over at least a month per the proper protocol, but I’ve never had to do that. After a year on Xanax, I contacted Dr. Vernon about Xanax and my concern that it was working too well. (What is it about the human mind that we second guess a good thing?)  He said if it’s working for you it’s something you need and you can accept that exactly the same as a person who needs medication for other physical ailments.  I really appreciated his compassion and common sense. Once, just once, I forgot I’d taken the meds and took it again, a double dose.  Ahhhh….peace….tinnitus down to a whisper.  Problem was, I was too spaced out to want to drive or anything.  So I am content not to raise the level of medication, stay functional with tinnitus and sleep at night. Vernon saw that chance moment of incredible relief as a good sign that the dose I am supposed to take is a good choice for me. The neuroplasticity issue is for the scientists to work out, and I’m not a TRT candidate anyway.  I feel a LOT better with a good night’s sleep than I did during the long decade of serious sleep deprivation, and my memory seems about the same as most people I know who are my age…now if only I could remember what my age is…:-) Best to you. Mary

Response:

On 01 Jul 2000 21:10:54 GMT, oreg…@aol.com (Marsha Johnson) wrote in part:

I spoke with their director this week and he pointed out that in this study, the control group was given benedryl as their medication, versus the group that had the xanax.  We agreed that it would have been a better study if there could have been a group that was given some sort of medication that does not induce drowsiness, as both xanax and benedryl do. [snip]

Marsha: I’ll submit myself as a case study of 1 (no placebo group). I’ve been taking xanax (0.5 mg 2x to 3x) for the past 18 to 19 years.  I never found it to be detrimental to memory but I did find that it lost most of it’s sleep-aid benefit after the first few years.  It was ALWAYS of great benefit for T relief. I didn’t appreciate how much until ‘97 when I read that Dr. Jastreboff felt it "inhibited the habituation process".  My attempt to taper off xanax (over 3-4 months) was an unbelievable disaster which I won’t willingly repeat. I never knew or believed that T could be SO LOUD ! It took another 3 months to restore my theraputic level of xanax (and my peace of mind). Are you aware of any studies on the combination of T with significant hearing loss ?  I was particularly looking for TRT results with combined hearing loss — Do those 80 % success numbers hold up, … continued success, Bob D. Long Island, NY dimarco_…@mindspring.com

Response:

The Oregon Health Sciences University, Deparment of Otolarygology, published a double-blind study which outlined a protocol showing that xanax reduced the loudness of their tinnitus (measured by masking levels) in about 75% of the cases. I’m certain it reduced the anxiety in an even higher percentage. Their protocol considers the dependency nature of xanax and is designed to help reduce this effect.  (Johnson, Brummett and Schleuning, Archives of Otolaryngology-Head & Neck Surgery, volume 119, pp. 842-845, 1993). Paul

Response:

Please note that I don’t endorse nor oppose this protocol.    Haven’t tried it.   Just posting it for information. There are some notable researchers and clinicians who feel that xanax will slow down the process of habituation on the TRT protocol,  if you are considering the latter. Paul

Response:

John is correct. There is another advantage to Tai Chi. Studies have proven that this exercise prevents falls and hip fractures. Personally I think every health program should offer this to their members. The costs are negligeable – are about 1/10 of what a single fall costs. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com

Response:

I spoke with their director this week and he pointed out that in this study, the control group was given benedryl as their medication, versus the group that had the xanax.  We agreed that it would have been a better study if there could have been a group that was given some sort of medication that does not induce drowsiness, as both xanax and benedryl do. I also think that with observing and evaluating over 500 people in the last 3 years, that the side effects of xanax type medications cannot be underestimated. If the effect is primarily attentional…..or in the relief of the anxiety….then the problem is that the person finds that same numbing or lessening effect in ALL aspects of their lives…including work, social, spiritual, etc. This is often unacceptable.  One study does not a finding make…..there needs to be better designed, longer studies completed with ALL the medications physicians are throwing at people with chronic intrusive tinnitus—-mostly without knowing about potential side effects! MJ Marsha Johnson, M.S., CCC-A, FAAA Clinic Director/Audiologist, TRTA Member since 1997 Oregon Tinnitus & Hyperacusis Treatment Center (503) 233-5925 -clinic (9-5 PM), (503) 203 5858 voicemail (24 hours) www.tinnitus-audiology.com

Response:

        I have had tinnitus for the past ten years.  I have found, purely by chance, that alprazolam(Xanax) substantially reduces the ringing.  I am taking alprazolam to reduce anxiety and found a very,very good side effect. I hope this also works for you……..Lee

Response:

This is a kind of wll known that a drug like Xanax helps T. I don’t think that Xanax is actually reducing the level of T, but just your  attitude toward it. In other words, it lets you cope with it better. The question might be in your case as in many other people, is the T causiing your anxiety or is your anxiety increasing your T? (chicken /egg thing) Be careful not to get dependent on Xanax, My understanding is that this is used as a last resort for people with severe T that nothing else seems to help. I would try a non-drug alternative and I would try other non-drug things to reduce your anxiety such as  Tai Chi, Yoga , exercise, etc. Regards, John

Response:

Question:

I recomend the book "Meditation – for absolutely everyone", by Subagh Singh Khalsa, that comes with an audio cassette. ISBN 0-8048-3011-8

Response:

I also recomend the "Orange Book" by Osho. — Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh Kundalini Yoga: http://3ho.home.pages.de/ alt.yoga FAQ:    http://members.xoom.com/altyoga/

Response:

I would recommend the book "getting well again "  it has a basic relax exercise that will give most of the benefits of popular meditations.  Beware of cults!  Trancendental Meditation is also excellent.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone help/  I’am wanting to start meditation of some kind and am unsure where to start.  Whats the difference between qui gong ,  tai chi , yoga etc etc.  What i’m looking for is something that will give me a sense of peace,  to help me focus my mind,  and to help me achieve a positive mental attitude.  Not much to ask now is it!!!!!! Please help,  I dont know where to start. Ok First, Ya wanna Enroll In EarlyCHildHood Development Classes, Then Donwload ALLL of TooL’s Mp3’s, Opiate is the Best Song.  Then Do Your Homework, Like Reading Your Creative Resources Book While Listening To Opiate Over and Over and Over and Over and Over Then You Will See, JEE, Im Not So Broken and HopeLess, I Love MEEEEEEEEEEEEE.  Then Choose A PINWHEEL! =) — CottegeCheese Before you buy.

Response:

I highly recommend the "Learn To Meditate Kit" by Dr. Patricia Carrington which is a basic meditation derived from Transcendental Meditation but was developed for use in therapy and research.  Dr. Carrington is a psychotherapist who learned TM and found it so beneficial she started recommending it to her clients and then in order to have control over the process and to adjust it to each client’s needs created Clinically Standardised Meditation which is what is taught on the cassette course. You can get it really cheaply in at least one book club. I think it’s the Body Mind and Spirit Book Club as one of their special offers. Hope this helps. Regards Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone help/  I’am wanting to start meditation of some kind and am unsure where to start.  Whats the difference between qui gong ,  tai chi , yoga etc etc.  What i’m looking for is something that will give me a sense of peace,  to help me focus my mind,  and to help me achieve a positive mental attitude.  Not much to ask now is it!!!!!! Please help,  I dont know where to start.

Response:

Can anyone help/  I’am wanting to start meditation of some kind and am unsure where to start.  Whats the difference between qui gong ,  tai chi , yoga etc etc.  What i’m looking for is something that will give me a sense of peace,  to help me focus my mind,  and to help me achieve a positive mental attitude.  Not much to ask now is it!!!!!! Please help,  I dont know where to start.

I highly recommend the "Learn To Meditate Kit" by Dr. Patricia Carrington which is a basic meditation derived from Transcendental Meditation but was developed for use in therapy and research.  Dr. Carrington is a psychotherapist who learned TM

{snip} Or you can go right to the source and get personalized and proper guidance http://www.tm.org/ That will give you an 800 number to call. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Can anyone help/  I’am wanting to start meditation of some kind and am unsure where to start.  Whats the difference between qui gong ,  tai chi , yoga etc etc.  What i’m looking for is something that will give me a sense of peace,  to help me focus my mind,  and to help me achieve a positive mental attitude.  Not much to ask now is it!!!!!! Please help,  I dont know where to start.

Ok First, Ya wanna Enroll In EarlyCHildHood Development Classes, Then Donwload ALLL of TooL’s Mp3’s, Opiate is the Best Song.  Then Do Your Homework, Like Reading Your Creative Resources Book While Listening To Opiate Over and Over and Over and Over and Over Then You Will See, JEE, Im Not So Broken and HopeLess, I Love MEEEEEEEEEEEEE.  Then Choose A PINWHEEL! =) — CottegeCheese Before you buy.

Response:

Can anyone help/  I’am wanting to start meditation of some kind and am unsure where to start.  Whats the difference between qui gong ,  tai chi , yoga etc etc.  What i’m looking for is something that will give me a sense of peace,  to help me focus my mind,  and to help me achieve a positive mental attitude.  Not much to ask now is it!!!!!! Please help,  I dont know where to start.

Response:

Question:

hi there, does anyone have recomendation about good free sites for demographics and statistical information ? Thanks for the help. salo

Response:

If you go to the American Demographics magazine web site, there is an article covering just that information in the October issue.  The article can be found at http://www.marketingtools.com/publications/ad/98_ad/9809_ad/ad980909.htm I hope this helps. hi there, does anyone have recomendation about good free sites for demographics and statistical information ? Thanks for the help. salo

– Trigram Health & Meditation Tai Chi, Yoga, & Meditation Videotapes For beginners. http://www.trigramhealth.com

Response:

Hi there, Try – http://www.thestandard.com  or http://www.nua.ie/surveys/index.cgi

Response:

Try www.easidemographics.com for a variety of reports. You should also take a look at the US Census pages.  They’re at www.census.gov If I can be of any additional help, please let me know.  One of our areas of specialty is market analysis. David Harkins Versant Consulting Group, LLC

Response:

Hello dear marketres I am looking for sites with good examples of industrial marketing I`ll be gald to get any information. Grzegorz Leszczynski

Response:

Hi there, Here are some for you to try: http://stats.bls.gov/ http://www.screen.com/mnet/eng/issues/stats/index.htm http://www.cdc.gov/nchswww/fastats/fastats.htm http://www.cdc.gov/nchswww/fastats/fastats.htm (midway through the page are numerous links for internet & WWW statistics and surveys) We provide marketing research for our clients and these are just a few of the sources we use. Hope it helps. Best wishes, Terri Firebaugh — Firebaugh Communications http://www.firepub.com Public Relations     Small to Medium-sized Businesses Professionals     Non-fiction authors     Women’s Issues Travel     High-Tech       Finance        Public Awareness – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi there, does anyone have recomendation about good free sites for demographics and statistical information ? Thanks for the help. salo

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Try www.nop.co.uk — Afam Edozie Tel: +44 181 201 8055 Mobile: +44 802 663 669 www.marketing4technology.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi there, does anyone have recomendation about good free sites for demographics and statistical information ? Thanks for the help. salo

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Here’s one I use frequently: http://www.inc.com/virtualconsult/databases/demographics.html You can enter the zip code of the area you wish to know more about. This database uses the US Census as it’s basis. You also have several different types of demographic to choose from such as; Industrial, Employment, Education, General Population, etc…. Hope it helps, Dan Webmaster/Infinity

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -While streching my back, while standing and bending back and then forward…. The intensity varies acording to how deeply I breathe before bending back and how fast I come back up,  but the feeling is that I am no longer myself. The world around me, and myself seems to change for a short time. I lose balance, vision gets blured, I am thrown in a mild fit of shakes …. The sensation is quite pleasant however and it does not last long. I loose all my bearings for that brief moment. Then my body tingles all over and it is like I am reborn. My breathing is very peaceful, my vision clearer and I feel really good. I usually meditate a long time holding on to this peacefulness. I dont belong to any Yoga school (I live in Toronto, Canada), and all I know is from my own research. But I never read anything about this. Could any one tell me if this is normal? Thank you!

It might be either of two phenomenon: pranic energy running through the chakras or asphyxiation.  In your position, you’ll have ot decide which it is. I could say bend down with your knees, hyperventilate, rise quickly, and if the effects are similar before you pass out then you know its the latter.  I wouldn’t really advise it though, it’s too dangerous. You’ve encountered the major paradox in yoga.  For such a solitary pursuit one really ought to have a guide.  In my experience I can feel the top of my head heating up, loss of control over muscles (spasms rather than convulsions), and the same eupohoria one gets from a marathon session of gluing and painting models.  More contrastly, my vision gets very clear rather than blurry (I am near sighted and practice without my contacts for this very reason).  For these reasons, I would say proceed with caution.  There is no limit to how rapid one may progress, and perhaps you were born already well on the path to samadhi, but for doing yoga for such a relatively short period of time I would keep a journal and closely review my practice over the next few weeks.  If it is the pranic energy and you continue moderately, I wouldn’t think you’d lose the pathways. Then again, I press no claim to be a yogi or guru.  The best advice anyone can ever give is listen to yourself. pax pacis -z-

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Definitely not unusual.  I have had many similar experiences. After a while, it is not so unusual to you, although it is difficult to find others with similar experiences, even amongst yoga practitioners. Yogi’s have a variety of experiences and it sounds like yours are quite nice.  Could be the prana/kundalini shakti moving through passages that were blocked or a shifting in your awareness.  Don’t worry about it. Thank God for it. Keep doing it.   There is a benefit to having a Guru in case it starts getting scary.  I would recommend Siddha Yoga Swami Chidvilasananda.  Having a real guru helps you get through the changes that may be coming.  If you visit Gurumayi Chidvilasanda’s ashram or centers, you will find some other people having similar experiences. There may be a Siddha Yoga center near you that you can visit. Call                              (914) 434-2000, Ext. 2202 see website: http://www.siddhayoga.org/main.html   Otherwise, continue to pray to God or a Saint.  If you have a picture of a Saint, you can write letters to that saint in your journal describing your experiences.  Then, your evolution will hasten and each experience you record in your journal will be followed by new experiences and revelation from your inner self, the Guru, God and or your Patron Saint.  I recommend reading books on this subject such as anything by Swami Sivananda, or Play of Consciousness by Swami Muktananda.   don’t worry, everything is ok Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i have been practicing yoga for the last 2 month. Since then I have been controlling my diet, exercised my body with postures and streches, and my mind with meditation. I feel unbelievably peaceful and in tune with all around me. My mind is clearer than ever and I seem to have unlimited energy. While streching my back, while standing and bending back and then forward (I am very flexible and can go way back) I experience something quite unusual. The intensity varies acording to how deeply I breathe before bending back and how fast I come back up,  but the feeling is that I am no longer myself. The world around me, and myself seems to change for a short time. I lose balance, vision gets blured, I am thrown in a mild fit of shakes …. The sensation is quite pleasant however and it does not last long. I loose all my bearings for that brief moment. Then my body tingles all over and it is like I am reborn. My breathing is very peaceful, my vision clearer and I feel really good. I usually meditate a long time holding on to this peacefulness. I dont belong to any Yoga school (I live in Toronto, Canada), and all I know is from my own research. But I never read anything about this. Could any one tell me if this is normal? Thank you!

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i have been practicing yoga for the last 2 month. Since then I have been controlling my diet, exercised my body with postures and streches, and my mind with meditation. I feel unbelievably peaceful and in tune with all around me. My mind is clearer than ever and I seem to have unlimited energy.

    I have experienced this too. It is such a wonderful experience. This kind of experience is most of the reason I got into yoga. While streching my back, while standing and bending back and then forward (I am very flexible and can go way back) I experience something quite unusual. The intensity varies acording to how deeply I breathe before bending back and how fast I come back up,  but the feeling is that I am no longer myself. The world around me, and myself seems to change for a short time. I lose balance, vision gets blured, I am thrown in a mild fit of shakes …. The sensation is quite pleasant however and it does not last long. I loose all my bearings for that brief moment. Then my body tingles all over and it is like I am reborn. My breathing is very peaceful, my vision clearer and I feel really good. I usually meditate a long time holding on to this peacefulness.

    I can’t say I know much about this aspect of your experience. I dont belong to any Yoga school (I live in Toronto, Canada), and all I know is from my own research. But I never read anything about this. Could any one tell me if this is normal? Thank you!

    As it turns out I was in Toronto last week. I’m from London, Ontario. Small world. There is a workshop coming up in Nov that I think your would be interested in:            REFLECTIONS ON YOUR PERSONAL PRACTICE: Discuss issues arising out of your yoga or meditation practice with an experienced meditation teacher and psychotherapist.             Friday Nov 13, 1998   8:15pm – 10:00pm             By: Ruth Gilbert             Cost: $15             At: The "Esther Myers’ Yoga Studio"             390 Dupont St. Toronto, ON.     I may see you there? Meanwhile, enjoy your practice!                                                                       Michel

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Chances are this reaction is a result of lowering your blood pressure quickly while moving into the backbend. I have experienced it too. While the sensation has it’s pleasant aspects yoga teaches us to be steady. So, try to move into the bend a bit slower and watch your breath as you do. I find it fascinating. I notice the spot where I begin to hold mine as I move. For me it’s an indication that I have some emotion to deal with, fear, hesitation. That may be different for you. I think we can all learn from our breathing. peace, sandra

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i have been practicing yoga for the last 2 month. Since then I have been controlling my diet, exercised my body with postures and streches, and my mind with meditation. I feel unbelievably peaceful and in tune with all around me. My mind is clearer than ever and I seem to have unlimited energy. While streching my back, while standing and bending back and then forward (I am very flexible and can go way back) I experience something quite unusual. The intensity varies acording to how deeply I breathe before bending back and how fast I come back up,  but the feeling is that I am no longer myself. The world around me, and myself seems to change for a short time. I lose balance, vision gets blured, I am thrown in a mild fit of shakes …. The sensation is quite pleasant however and it does not last long. I loose all my bearings for that brief moment. Then my body tingles all over and it is like I am reborn. My breathing is very peaceful, my vision clearer and I feel really good. I usually meditate a long time holding on to this peacefulness. I dont belong to any Yoga school (I live in Toronto, Canada), and all I know is from my own research. But I never read anything about this. Could any one tell me if this is normal? Thank you!

I have often felt "dislocated", that is, without a perception of time and space while doing kung fu forms.  However, I attributed that to my concentration in doing it right.  Once I am done, though, it’s like a return to earth.  As much as I’ve tried, I find it hard to reach such a state while meditating.  I have done it, but not as frequently as I do while practicing forms. Lionel — Trigram Health & Meditation Tai Chi, Yoga, & Meditation Videotapes For beginners. http://www.trigramhealth.com

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i have been practicing yoga for the last 2 month. Since then I have been controlling my diet, exercised my body with postures and streches, and my mind with meditation. I feel unbelievably peaceful and in tune with all around me. My mind is clearer than ever and I seem to have unlimited energy. While streching my back, while standing and bending back and then forward (I am very flexible and can go way back) I experience something quite unusual. The intensity varies acording to how deeply I breathe before bending back and how fast I come back up,  but the feeling is that I am no longer myself. The world around me, and myself seems to change for a short time. I lose balance, vision gets blured, I am thrown in a mild fit of shakes …. The sensation is quite pleasant however and it does not last long. I loose all my bearings for that brief moment. Then my body tingles all over and it is like I am reborn. My breathing is very peaceful, my vision clearer and I feel really good. I usually meditate a long time holding on to this peacefulness. I dont belong to any Yoga school (I live in Toronto, Canada), and all I know is from my own research. But I never read anything about this. Could any one tell me if this is normal? Thank you!

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Question:

Hello all. Can anyone recommend decent on-line yoga classes for beginners? — C U Soon. PLUR! Yours faithfully, Kelly.

Response:

Hello all. Can anyone recommend decent on-line yoga classes for beginners? — C U Soon. PLUR! Yours faithfully, Kelly.

I don’t know that there can be online yoga classes, can there?  At least not with the capabilities of the average consumer modem.  I may be wrong, though. Lionel — Trigram Health & Meditation Tai Chi, Yoga, & Meditation Videotapes For beginners. http://www.trigramhealth.com

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Question:

   Think about it.  Consider what you would do if you couldn’t run.   Consider this if you decide that it’s just a little ache which will go away and you can run anyway.  Think about it on Thanksgiving.  Think about it on New Year’s.

So how come we’re the only two that seem to be thinking about this? I’ve become much more cautious in my training in the last few years, since I’ve had a series of nagging little injuries. I’m much more likely to back off a workout rather than trying to "run through it". When I was 35, I could run through anything and was never gonna be injured. Perhaps it’s just the old age that comes with maturity. No wait, that’s backwards…… Mike "TriBop" Tennent WebRunner Running Page http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html My Model Railroad Page http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/srr/

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From the Ways of Chuang Tzu edited/translated by Thomas Merton: There was a man who was so disturbed by the sight of his own shadow and so displesed with his own footsteps that he determined to get rid of both. The method he hit upon was to run away from them. So he got up and ran.  But every time he put his foot down there was another step, while his shadow kept up with him without the slightest difficulty. He attributed his failure to the fact that he was not running fast enough.  So he ran faster and faster, without stopping until he finally dropped dead. He failed to realize that if he merely stepped into the shade, his shadow would vanish, and if he sat down and stayed still, there would be no more footsteps. After a 5:29:34 at Catalina,  I figured that I would come in at 5:15 with a standard deviation of 45 minutes: between 4:30 and 6 hours.  Danced 3 hours at the Casino that evening, hashed on Sunday.   When we injure ourselves it is most often because the brain does not realize that it is a secondary organ (Joseph Campbell) and claims superiority over all other parts of the body.  In the long run…or a lot of hurting short runs…the brain still remains deaf to the neuronal messages forgetting that without the body, the brain would have no place to shout its superiority. When the brain has driven its monomaniacal message home of running through the injuries and not listening to what the body is saying, you have the inflationary quality of the depression.   Turning the brain off is a task.  The use of meditation, mindfulness, tai chi, yoga, mindful-based stress reduction are a few of the paths toward "mens sana in corpore sano"-a healthy mind in a healthy body.   Part of my running philosophy includes a monthly session with a fellow who does Postural/structural Integration.  In October or November, I get my month planner and schedule my monthly meeting for the entire next year. Started 18 years ago.   As the first Running Therapist trained by Tad Kostrubala MD back in 1975…these days it’s more walking therapy with some running therapy…I’ve not had the opportunity to reflect on not being able to run.  When I haven’t been able to run, I’ve ridden my bike next to the walker or runner.  When I haven’t been able to run, I’ve walked.  When I haven’t been able to walk, I’ve done therapy on exercycles.  I realize I need to wear down the brain, give it a little O2 debt through physical exercise to get it to listen to the body. When I haven’t been able to run or walk or exercise with a patient, then I have attempted to have them work out for an hour before seeing me…so that their mind/brain/body won’t be distracted and the brain can focus on what messages the body is sending all the time…but the brain often can ignore…all the time. As most of us realize, that we go in and out of trance states all day long.  Even as you’ve read this post, your mind went somewhere remembering a time when it had experienced something.  That remembering was triggered by a word or a feeling attached to a feeling attached to a throught attached to what you were reading…but not reading…but rather reflecting upon.  And the interesting part of that now during one or several of your runs over the next several weeks, or months, or years, you’ll remember about stepping into the shade or sitting quietly.  As a matter of fact as you’re sitting in the shade or sitting quietly you’ll recall that you have no need to run away from your shadow or the sound of your footsteps…and will be looking forward to running again…breathing easily and with a smile on your face.  And if you think about it, you may even have a smile on your face right now as you are breathing and thinking the joy of being in this moment when so many thoughts have come and gone. So Running Philosophy when translated means "Running Love of Wisdom." And Wisdom is defined  in my dictionary as:  Quality of being wise; ability to judge soundly and deal sagaciously with facts, esp. as they relate to life and conduct; discernment and judgment; discretion; sagacity.  Wise as an adjective means: discerning and judging soundly concerning what is true or false, proper or improper; discreet-opposed to foolish; aware, informed. So Mike, Bret, Linda, Dahinz I  cannot not think, I think all the time. And when I am doing I an non-thinking.  And more often these days, I am thinking about thinking or observing my thinking and letting my thoughts go so that I can sit quietly in the shade….letting my senses observe and just being, as St George said, "first and foremost, be a good animal." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       Think about it.  Consider what you would do if you couldn’t run. Consider this if you decide that it’s just a little ache which will go away and you can run anyway.  Think about it on Thanksgiving.  Think about it on New Year’s. So how come we’re the only two that seem to be thinking about this? You have company!! I’ve become much more cautious in my training in the last few years, since I’ve had a series of nagging little injuries. I’m much more likely to back off a workout rather than trying to "run through it". When I was 35, I could run through anything and was never gonna be injured. I suspect that "running through injuries" may just be perception and luck of the draw. When I was in my 20’s and 30’s, trying to run through injuries increased the injury and frustration to the extent that it put me firmly in the "I hate running" category of exrunners. For several years anyway. Maybe those that run through successfully stay runners and report success, and the rest drop out. I just re-started running in October, and opted for the fast-track-to-a-marathon finish but shit happens. I got a tall, long legged, long strided, faster-base-paced running buddy, and pulled a muscle jumping bridges, and even Galloway couldn’t save me! Running through a hamstring pull got me a psoas strain. Running through that and adding the running partner got me  soleus shin splints. Had never had them before so I <hehe ran through it. I’ve decided that I need to know what is causing the pain before I attempt to run through it. And after taking 2 full weeks off before creeping my mileage and speed back up, I suspect I’ll think long and hard, and back off my training next time. I hate not running! Perhaps it’s just the old age that comes with maturity. No wait, that’s backwards…… So, if I continue to act immature….? Linda (I **hate** spam! Spammers should be forced to work in Nike Factories!

– In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer-rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic,  est. 1975

Response:

      Think about it.  Consider what you would do if you couldn’t run. Consider this if you decide that it’s just a little ache which will go away and you can run anyway.  Think about it on Thanksgiving.  Think about it on New Year’s. So how come we’re the only two that seem to be thinking about this?

You have company!! I’ve become much more cautious in my training in the last few years, since I’ve had a series of nagging little injuries. I’m much more likely to back off a workout rather than trying to "run through it". When I was 35, I could run through anything and was never gonna be injured.

I suspect that "running through injuries" may just be perception and luck of the draw. When I was in my 20’s and 30’s, trying to run through injuries increased the injury and frustration to the extent that it put me firmly in the "I hate running" category of exrunners. For several years anyway. Maybe those that run through successfully stay runners and report success, and the rest drop out. I just re-started running in October, and opted for the fast-track-to-a-marathon finish but shit happens. I got a tall, long legged, long strided, faster-base-paced running buddy, and pulled a muscle jumping bridges, and even Galloway couldn’t save me! Running through a hamstring pull got me a psoas strain. Running through that and adding the running partner got me  soleus shin splints. Had never had them before so I <hehe ran through it. I’ve decided that I need to know what is causing the pain before I attempt to run through it. And after taking 2 full weeks off before creeping my mileage and speed back up, I suspect I’ll think long and hard, and back off my training next time. I hate not running! Perhaps it’s just the old age that comes with maturity. No wait, that’s backwards……

So, if I continue to act immature….? Linda (I **hate** spam! Spammers should be forced to work in Nike Factories!

Response:

      Think about it.  Consider what you would do if you couldn’t run. Consider this if you decide that it’s just a little ache which will go away and you can run anyway.  Think about it on Thanksgiving.  Think about it on New Year’s. So how come we’re the only two that seem to be thinking about this?

Maybe, like me, others just try to put such thoughts out of their mind. Kind of like each time I cycle to work maybe some asshole driver is going to put me in a wheelchair, or maybe I’ll need to visit the doc and find I have a serious disease. I’m scheduled for a ‘full speed’ track session tonight. Maybe, like my trainer, I’ll have a cardio and that will be the end of my running career. You just try not think about such things. Running can certainly become a major part of your life. If it is taken away, you’d just have to deal with it best you can. Meantime, I prefer not to consider the possibility.   Miles

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To what extent should one’s direction and sense of self-worth be linked to running? I’m not sure what I’d do if I couldn’t run. I know I’d continue swimming and biking, but running and triathlons are a principle love and I know I’d miss them. Something important would be gone and it’d be tough to cope with losing something like that. Now I gotta go out and run to shake my depression from thinking about it……  

        Think about it.  Consider what you would do if you couldn’t run.   Consider this if you decide that it’s just a little ache which will go away and you can run anyway.  Think about it on Thanksgiving.  Think about it on New Year’s.         I wasted a lot of my career as a young runner not appreciating the gravity of the situation, how close I was to that oblivion discussed before.  I spent a lot of time not running very well, and I sorely wish I had some of those injury-free seasons to do again.  I’d be thanking [insert preferred deity] on my hands and knees every morning that I’d run the day before and could run that day.         If I can ever run again I will be thankful every hour of the season, and I’ll never be so casual about risky training again.                                                                 – Bret Jensen

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Question:

In article <31CCE886.5…@concentric.net

, Walt Podushko

<debw…@concentric.net

wrote: …. I’d also like to know if you think the Tai Chi helped you a lot. I was

thinking of

trying it but decided my balance wasn’t good enough, plus from what I’ve

seen of the Tai

….

Hi Walt– I too think moderate exercise is the way to go, as do many folks. I used to kayak, hike, study Tai Chi, yoga, Feldenkrais. I am in the process of selling my kayak; I guess I’ll keep my bicycle because of reports here; I agree with you that Tai Chi requires too much balance (although some people take it precisely to help their balance). Yoga and Feldenkrais are great, safe, ways of getting exercise, I find. Although I also have a recumbent exercise bicycle, and like it because, among other things, it is possible to do what one wants on it. Which may just be 5 minutes of exercise.) The woman who is horse back riding I won’t emulate, although I have heard very good things about horseback riding (I didn’t horse back ride by choice before MS–as far as I’m concerned, horses hurt, and I don’t want my mode of transportion or form of exercise to have its own mind. Some people like that. I don’t.) Cathe             (Browman: email "brow…@haskins.yale.edu") [Note: Haskins, a non-profit speech research lab, is *not* part of  Yale. Those of us with computer accounts at Haskins often access  other places via Yale.]

Response:

Hey there, Hi there, & Yo! You don’t hear from me here to often, I just usually read a lot. My MS is of the Relapsing Remitting Chronic Progressive All the Above & All Yet to Come type. (Would that be RRCPAAAYC to the Dr. denomination.):-

I don’t do any drugs, consider them band aids. Prefer to deal with things physically & with attitude adjustment, but thats me never do things the easy way. I go to MS therapy group once a week & do a lot of moderate weight lifting, plus when this MS (Multifarious & Senseless) stuck me in a chair for a while I taught myself how to walk again. Now I try to walk two to three miles every day, if I don’t it’s bad news. The body assumes that I gave up & the legs go on strike. Oh, by the by I practice a light form of Tia Chi also, reminds the muscles they move in many directions & are capable of remembering those abilities. Now I got a new thing I’ve been doing, some of you may have seen this on one of those "20-20" type news shows. I,m going riding like in a "Horse is a horse, a horse of course…). It’s part of a study to see if MSers motor systems can recall certain motor skill they were proficient at pre-MS. We are mounted bare back & do not have control of the horse, you only concentrate on your own presence on the horse. A lot of the time I just close my eyes & make myself become totally aware of the muscle & balance thing so, that the body becomes aware that it can respond to the unknown. The results of been astounding! My legs had been hurting exceeding bad for a long time (Felt like someone was twisting them off) & this constant dull pain was really effecting the MS fatigue factor. Now since the riding, the legs seem to have more spring to them & have been hurting less. I figure the toning of the deep muscle layer & nerve connectively have really helped, & there has been less fatigue. I can put up with the pain & ache better than the fatigue. Having been a competent horseman pre-MS it also does wonders for cognitive ego & the MS ‘I can’t do’ depressions. Hell, I even wore out seven able-bodied volunteers (spotters) today keeping up with me! [Grins] If this keeps up I might even try a motorcycle again! Why not! Take Care & Keep the Faith, John Hare Colo. Springs J.D.Hare  * 1st 2.00 #5276 * Reality is only for those who lack imagination. ————————————————————————— — Internet: john.h…@commstar.com (John Hare) This message was processed by Commstar Enterprise BBS in Colorado Springs, CO Offering Internet E-Mail, Usenet, WWW Home Pages, and Listserv services. Sponsored by QUESS, Inc.     http://www.quess.com              597-8670 BBS   ————————————————————————— —

Response:

John Hare wrote:

<snip Now since the riding, the legs seem to have more spring to them & have been hurting less. I figure the toning of the deep muscle layer & nerve connectively have really helped, & there has been less fatigue. I can put up with the pain & ache better than the fatigue. Having been a competent horseman pre-MS it also does wonders for cognitive ego & the MS ‘I can’t do’ depressions. Hell, I even wore out seven able-bodied volunteers (spotters) today keeping up with me! [Grins] If this keeps up I might even try a motorcycle again! Why not! Take Care & Keep the Faith, John Hare Colo. Springs

John: I remember a quote I learned in my youth:  "The outside of a horse is good for the inside of a man." I know that my identity is closely tied to animals (dogs, cattle, horses…). Last year I became less involved in the care of my animals, and my health (MS) suffered because of it.  At one point, I lost sight in one eye, and later in the year, I had a bout of double vision.  In January, I got another pair of bulls to train for oxen, and I have been feeling well since (aside from occasional numbness, etc.) I have had large animals to care for since high school, and I definitely have a "need" for animals to depend on me.  It keeps me going.  I am currently working on my B.S. (yes, while working full time, and training oxen, and, and, and… I’m a fool ) and have promised myself another horse when I achieve this goal.  The motion of riding is very therapeutic. Do what makes you feel well and happy. Trudy Ricker Andover, NH tric…@kear.tdsnet.com

Response:

John Hare wrote:

Hey there, Hi there, & Yo! You don’t hear from me here to often, I just usually read a lot. My MS is of the Relapsing Remitting Chronic Progressive All the Above & All Yet to Come type. (Would that be RRCPAAAYC to the Dr. denomination.):- I don’t do any drugs, consider them band aids. Prefer to deal with things physically & with attitude adjustment, but thats me never do things the easy way. I go to MS therapy group once a week & do a lot of moderate weight lifting, plus when this MS (Multifarious & Senseless)

I’m more interested in the weight lifting part. I tried that and couldn’t seem to find a happy medium. If I lifted too light it didn’t seem to do anything, if I lifted what seemed to be right it seemed to help a lot for awhile then peek then I’d get worse again. Perhaps if you don’t mind you might be able to help me out on this. I also tried the old exercise bike and the same thing happened I’d peek then get worse. I can’t do the horseback bit because I got a bad back.

I don’t do any drugs, consider them band aids. Prefer to deal with things physically & with attitude adjustment,

I’m in 100% agreement here although it could be because I went thru a short period of doctor prescribed drug abuse. Problem with drugs is you never know of the side effects. I found that the mind in many cases works far better than a dependency on drugs although even I admit there may come a time when that’s the only way but as long as I have options – no thanks. Right now, about the only drug I take, if you want to call it that, is a small assortment of vitamins. Although when I get a really severe attack, I have surrendered to prednisone. That’s about every year an a half.

"Horse is a horse, a horse of course…). It’s part of a study to see if MSers motor systems can recall certain motor skill they were proficient at pre-MS.

I’d really like to know moree about this. When I first lost partial use of my legs and toes and started teaching myself to walk normal again I told my wife it was almost as if I had to teach my brain how to use my legs again. Maybe i can figure out a way of doing it without a horse. I’d also like to know if you think the Tai Chi helped you a lot. I was thinking of trying it but decided my balance wasn’t good enough, plus from what I’ve seen of the Tai Chi in Winnipeg, I don’t  think they’re teaching it right. Perhaps we could also correspond by e-mail. If you’re interested my E-mail address is < Walt Podushko

debw…@concentric.net. It would give me more time to both answer

questions and ask them. (Fatigue does make me a little slow at times) Live Long and Prosper Walt

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Question:

A friend has been complaining about aching joints and general lethargy.  He was once diagnosed with Lyme’s disease but his test have so far have come back negative. The doctors placed him on antibotics, but to no avail.   Kindly E-Mail any thoughts and/or suggestions. Marlena

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A friend has been complaining about aching joints and general lethargy. He was once diagnosed with Lyme’s disease but his test have so far have come back negative. The doctors placed him on antibotics, but to no avail.

Marlena, I know quite a few people who were initially mis-diagnosed with Lyme’s disease, given drugs.  In many cases, there were more fruitless attempts at a "diagnosis" and more drugs were given (e.g., steriods, antibiotics, antidepressants, arthritis drugs, etc.).  Eventually, these people (some of whom are close friends) developed enough serious symptoms that they were diagnosed with a serious chronic illness with "no cure" and are told they will have to stay on certain drugs for the rest of their life. I see more and more people going down this path these days.   Therefore, I cannot too strongly suggest that your friend consider changing directions 180 degrees and pursuing a Holistic Medicine treatment for his symptoms. The symptoms you mention could have a wide variety of contributing factors. For example, when I was working a very stressful job, staying up late, and not letting off steam or doing relaxation practices, I developed aching joints and lethargy and a low-level depression.  A poor, unbalanced, or chaotic eating plan, exposure to certain toxic substances (from a variety of sometimes unexpected sources), lack of creativity/ excitment/fun in one’s life, a history of pent-up emotions or hiding secrets/dishonesty are just some of the less "esoteric" things that might contribute to the situation in my experience. While I think that there can be quite a number of possible contributing factors, I also think it is important to avoid worrying about everything or trying to fix diet/lifestyle and other aspects to make them "perfect." Over the course of the next six months, your friend may get benefit 1.  Working directly with an experienced practitioner who can give direct     treatments and suggest diet or lifestyle changes if necessary.     If it were me, I would work with either an experienced Oriental     Medicine practitioner or an Integrated Awareness practitioner in this     case (but I have my own biases . Working with a practitioner can be     an enormous help. You can locate such a practitioner from the links     at:         http://www.holisticmed.com/www/directory.html 2.  Experimenting by signing up for a class that seems     interesting or fun: e.g., tai chi, yoga, qigong, meditation,     bioenergetics, breathwork, dancing, windsurfing , etc. 3.  Changing food plan gradually such as by moving towards a     more balanced whole foods diet (avoiding artificial sweeteners, MSG,     and possibly foods that cause intolerance or allergic reactions such     as dairy).  Various Essential Fatty Acid, mineral, probiotic, or other     supplement may be something to play around with or discuss with your     holistic practitioner. See the following web page for a few ideas and     a link to books:          http://www.holisticmed.com/food.html 4.  Avoiding long stints inside in front of the TV or computer.  Take     breaks (with friends if possible) and walk and move one’s joints     Walks in the early morning sunlight (maybe even barefooted on the     grass) can help with lethargy in my experience. 5.  Regularly connecting to one’s source with prayer, meditation or some     other spiritual practice can be very helpful for some people. Keep in mind, an experienced practitioner may be able to help your friend prioritize changes so they don’t become overwhelming or stressful. Yes, there are some gimmicky, pick-me-up supplements which may help over the short term, but might also just mask the underlying problem/issue. I hope a few of these ideas help. Best Wishes,                              - Mark                      Holistic Healing Web Page                     http://www.HolisticMed.com/

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Why on earth would the "doctors " place him on antibiotics if they don’t know what is wrong ?  Seems to me this is how we got antibiotic resistant bugs isn’t it ?

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In the past few days I’ve had aching joints, my achilles heel from tennis and my finger joints from Winter indoor climbing. However, both of these tendon areas have not been ab/used in a while. Any ideas on why the sudden inflamation, and remedies?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: squl.demon.co.uk!demon!uknet!bt!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!agate! darkstar.UCSC.EDU!nic.scruz.net!will Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative Organization: Santa Cruz Community Internet Lines: 4 NNTP-Posting-Host: thinkmedia.com In the past few days I’ve had aching joints, my achilles heel from tennis and my finger joints from Winter indoor climbing. However, both of these tendon areas have not been ab/used in a while. Any ideas on why the sudden inflamation, and remedies?

Have you tried Black Pepper rub ? A couple of drops of black pepper essential oil in a carrier such as grapeseed or almond oil works wonders on aches and pains. — Mary

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Just a follow-up on my original post. As quickly as the symptoms of joint ache appeared, they have disappeared. I can’t pin down the cause of this ache’s suddenly occuring despite giving it a fair amount of thought.

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Might be diffuse DuQuervain’s Contracture; try folic acid capsules if returns.

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(SexyKariMD) writes:

Try Pain Away This amazing spray contains Brazilian menthol, an organic extract that breaks the pain cycle and eliminates pain instantly — without causing numbness, drowsiness, or other unpleasant side effects. It works great for my significant other who has suffered for years with "full-blown" Fibromyalgia.

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