Expectations
Question:
Intent precedes Thought Absolutely! Thanks for your thoughtful consideration of and response to my post. I agree with you in totality.
After painful experience, I have learnt that whatever I write that is balanced and truthful, is not mine. Truth simply exists. It does not belong to anyone. Wisdom simply exists. Only the mistakes and typos are mine! 
Namaste
– Intent precedes Thought
Response:
Shahin, I find your reaction to omjaroo insipid and lacking in substance.
Based on your response to my post I can certainly understand the tenor of your statement. My (pleasant) experience has been with Shahin, that at first he seems to react to other’s posts emotionally and then after some inquiry and thought he tempers his initial reaction with a very grounded (perhaps religious, perhaps philosophical) reasoning which for me often hits the mark. To me the important thing is he is honest in his reactions and in his reflection. I personally appreciate that. Besides I don’t think his training and experience are akin to yours or mine and this might account for his particular "take" on things. It would seem he has concentrated on cultivating beauty, symmetry and perfection. The opposite side of the same stick might very likely provoke an uncomfortable reaction in him. As I read your contributions as well as those of others recently, I am thinking we have the makings of a good solid (great and fun) exchange of knowledge, experience and perspective, if we can only surmount the fear of sharing who we are, what we think and where we’ve been. I’m looking forward to it Thanks again. Jared Namaste
Response:
Admire and revere Jesus Christ, Gandhi? Then try living like them for even five minutes a day. These were both fighters and irreverent as hell. Don’t bother praying to or admiring Mother Theresa, try putting others before yourself.
Absolutely. But it is also good to put oneself before others – to judge and to correct oneself before trying to teach others – "fix yourself before you fix others". Or "Doctor, heal thyself" Now that’s real reverence. Try living in the piss and shit she did. Draw a dying, pus soaked body to you and comfort and still someone’s fear.
Everything that one turns away from – the hunger, the suffering, the poverty, and the PAIN of others, will one day come back to us. Every aspect of reality that we try to ignore, we will one day experience. To progress in yoga, one has to expand one’s awareness. And that means, coming to terms with all that exists, to face up to every distasteful and abhorrent thing that is in existence. Don’t talk to me about reverence. It means shit… God’s Love, Jared PS. Think I am afraid of being punished for what I’ve said? Not even. Karma? Bring it on! I’ve said a lot worse and really did mean it. Besides, reverent or not, casual or not, God does and always has blessed me. And I thank God for this. Namaste
– Intent precedes Thought
Response:
Shahin, I find your reaction to omjaroo insipid and lacking in substance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Omjaroo I find your reaction very disappointing. Shahin "omjaroo" wrote Wade, Somewhere along the line I got the impression that you have little use for or understanding of anything I have to convey. I can’t remember the last time you had anything positive or especially constructive to say to me. I do however remember you launching into me when you thought that I was at a disadvantage in that cross posted thread on siddhis. I have the distinct impression that you have never once understood what I have posted from the very first post you ever replied to. I mean really, do a search on your nic and mine and tell me we have ever been even close to one mind. Mostly I have the impression that you are self rigorous and condescending; judge what I say and then accuse me of doing the very same thing. But having said that, as long as you respond to my posts, I will continue to respond to yours until you ask me not to or until I get the impression you are simply trolling for a response. I have in the past been accused of being a bit goody two shoes, or Polly Anna like in my view of the world. E.g., there’s only God and God is Good, so only Good exists, etc. So just for a change of pace I’ll step out of my roll of saint like optimist and respond in a manner I have a bit more experience and facility with. It’s about the sacred and the profane, and the level of reverence. Wasn’t there a book, poem or quote to this effect? Really, I make a point of giving others credit when I use their words. The casual use of the word "God" Would you be suggesting that I use the word God casually? I have never used the word God casually in my life. Even when I say God Damn it, I am still aware that I am speaking God’s name You might notice I always capitalize the word God. You’ll also notice anytime I refer to an attribute of God I also capitalize it. This is a form of Bhakti practice for me and not meant for your consumption but if you paid the least attention to what I write you might notice it. is like a tourist going into a temple and prattling on, comparing his personal beliefs, Would you be suggesting I prattle? Surely you’ve noticed some deliberateness in what I say and how I say it? while the real worshippers inside are silently going about their reverential worship. "God" is a very sacred area for many people. There is a reason that many religions do not utter the name of their "God", it is considered profane. Boy, not saying God because it’s considered profane. Now that has to my my definition of: completely stupid and idiotic beyond belief. Are there really such people? Then I grieve for them and offer this prayer: God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God. You know what? Fuck God, fuck God in his ass. And Buddha, Gandhi, Jesus and Mother Theresa to boot. The Pope, the Dalai Lama, Martin Luther King, Babaji. Who else would you like on the list? Fuck them all and fuck Omjaroo too. Worship means nothing. Reverence is nothing more then ass kissing cowardice and hypocrisy. Do you suppose for a second that any of these people want you, me or anyone else to worship them? Holy crap! It’s all bullshit and they would be the first ones to tell you as much. You want to talk to me about reverence? I know what real reverence it. It is when you stop begging (admiring, worshiping) the great and noble people of history like they could do something for you and start living your life like they did. You want to have reverence for God, then tell and live in the Truth and in Love; express Intelligence ; live by Principle and revere Life. Because God is Life, Love, Truth, Intelligence, Soul, Principle and Spirit. Admire and revere Jesus Christ, Gandhi? Then try living like them for even five minutes a day. These were both fighters and irreverent as hell. Don’t bother praying to or admiring Mother Theresa, try putting others before yourself. Now that’s real reverence. Try living in the piss and shit she did. Draw a dying, pus soaked body to you and comfort and still someone’s fear. Don’t talk to me about reverence. It means shit… God’s Love, Jared PS. Think I am afraid of being punished for what I’ve said? Not even. Karma? Bring it on! I’ve said a lot worse and really did mean it. Besides, reverent or not, casual or not, God does and always has blessed me. And I thank God for this. Namaste
– Intent precedes Thought
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shahin, I find your reaction to omjaroo insipid and lacking in substance. Based on your response to my post I can certainly understand the tenor of your statement. My (pleasant) experience has been with Shahin, that at first he seems to react to other’s posts emotionally and then after some inquiry and thought he tempers his initial reaction with a very grounded (perhaps religious, perhaps philosophical) reasoning which for me often hits the mark. To me the important thing is he is honest in his reactions and in his reflection. I personally appreciate that. Besides I don’t think his training and experience are akin to yours or mine and this might account for his particular "take" on things. It would seem he has concentrated on cultivating beauty, symmetry and perfection. The opposite side of the same stick might very likely provoke an uncomfortable reaction in him.
A yogi should always try to be a realist and see things as they really are. Throw away the rose-coloured glasses as well as the dark shades. As I read your contributions as well as those of others recently, I am thinking we have the makings of a good solid (great and fun) exchange of knowledge, experience and perspective,
Perhaps.. But i try never to think of the future.. who knows what the future may hold? it is in this present moment that the future is decided. if we can only surmount the fear of sharing who we are, what we think and where we’ve been. I’m looking forward to it Thanks again. Jared Namaste
– Intent precedes Thought
Response:
mental and emotional states are inter-dependent. We cannot change one without simultaneously affecting the others.
This has been my understanding, all 8 limbs of yoga are to be developed in parallel. They are not a system of steps. I liken them to a circuit where any excess resistance in any of the parts will create a burnout and a system wide malfunction. Weakest link and all that. Yama, Niyama, Asana, Pranayama, Pratyahara, Dharana, Dhyana, Samadhi all improved in sychronized harmony. In my mind’s eye it is a shimmering and undulating ring of eight segments. Its shape determined by one’s current state. Wade
Response:
Omjaroo I find your reaction very disappointing. Shahin
Why? I was personaly responding (as opposed to reacting) to Wade and I did post a warning. Namaste
Response:
Sorry you feel this way. I will from now on stop responding to your posts and stay out of your way. Wade
Response:
Intent precedes Thought
Absolutely! Thanks for your thoughtful consideration of and response to my post. I agree with you in totality. Namaste
Response:
You want to have reverence for God, then tell and live in the Truth and in Love; express Intelligence ; live by Principle and revere Life. Because God is Life, Love, Truth, Intelligence, Soul, Principle and Spirit. Admire and revere Jesus Christ, Gandhi? Then try living like them for even five minutes a day. These were both fighters and irreverent as hell. Don’t bother praying to or admiring Mother Theresa, try putting others before yourself. Now that’s real reverence. Try living in the piss and shit she did. Draw a dying, pus soaked body to you and comfort and still someone’s fear.
While it is true that as one’s awareness expands, one has to come to terms with all the suffering and want that exists in the world, relying solely on this approach does not help. It is necessary to understand that the same incarnated soul (jeeva) that is, in one lifetime, experiencing pain and suffering, will be experiencing something completely different in the afterlife. Gone will be the physical suffering, pain, hunger and anguish. Only the lessons learnt will remain. Thus, knowing that change is the only constant, it is not proper to feel pity or sorrow for others. One must have compassion, and be guided by that. If one finds the opportunity to help others, one must do so. Failing that, one must not indulge in wasteful feelings of pity. Pity has absolutely no value but to weaken the experiencer. We are not here to ’save the world’. We are here to save ourselves. Moderation saves us from pain. To feel sorrow or pity is to go to a dualistic illusionary extreme and hence, a cause of pain. — Intent precedes Thought
Response:
All the work (jhana, karma, bhakti, recovery ) I have managed has gotten me to the point where I am nearly ready and able to start hatha, pranayama and meditation in earnest. However I am beginning to think it is my bad habits and attachments which keep me here in this world. I feel as if, were I able to remove the interference created by body, mind and soul, that I would disappear (melt) into Love (the void.)
omjaroo, everyone has their own path to follow based on their individual perception and experience. Let me offer my opinion, for what it’s worth, based on my experience: one does not have to wait to start pranayama or meditation. I did not really expect to begin doing meditation, or even to be able to meditate. Yet my practicing of meditation and occasional surya namaskar early in the morning started to take effect. I quit smoking without even planning to. Meditation and pranayama have some unknown effect which realigns us in profound ways. I belive that exercise/hatha yoga, pranayama, meditation and pure selfless intent (bodhi) are synergistic, just like the physical, mental and emotional states are inter-dependent. We cannot change one without simultaneously affecting the others. — Intent precedes Thought
Response:
Omjaroo I find your reaction very disappointing. Shahin "omjaroo" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wade, Somewhere along the line I got the impression that you have little use for or understanding of anything I have to convey. I can’t remember the last time you had anything positive or especially constructive to say to me. I do however remember you launching into me when you thought that I was at a disadvantage in that cross posted thread on siddhis. I have the distinct impression that you have never once understood what I have posted from the very first post you ever replied to. I mean really, do a search on your nic and mine and tell me we have ever been even close to one mind. Mostly I have the impression that you are self rigorous and condescending; judge what I say and then accuse me of doing the very same thing. But having said that, as long as you respond to my posts, I will continue to respond to yours until you ask me not to or until I get the impression you are simply trolling for a response. I have in the past been accused of being a bit goody two shoes, or Polly Anna like in my view of the world. E.g., there’s only God and God is Good, so only Good exists, etc. So just for a change of pace I’ll step out of my roll of saint like optimist and respond in a manner I have a bit more experience and facility with. It’s about the sacred and the profane, and the level of reverence. Wasn’t there a book, poem or quote to this effect? Really, I make a point of giving others credit when I use their words. The casual use of the word "God" Would you be suggesting that I use the word God casually? I have never used the word God casually in my life. Even when I say God Damn it, I am still aware that I am speaking God’s name You might notice I always capitalize the word God. You’ll also notice anytime I refer to an attribute of God I also capitalize it. This is a form of Bhakti practice for me and not meant for your consumption but if you paid the least attention to what I write you might notice it. is like a tourist going into a temple and prattling on, comparing his personal beliefs, Would you be suggesting I prattle? Surely you’ve noticed some deliberateness in what I say and how I say it? while the real worshippers inside are silently going about their
reverential worship. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "God" is a very sacred area for many people. There is a reason that many religions do not utter the name of their "God", it is considered profane. Boy, not saying God because it’s considered profane. Now that has to my my definition of: completely stupid and idiotic beyond belief. Are there really such people? Then I grieve for them and offer this prayer: God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God. You know what? Fuck God, fuck God in his ass. And Buddha, Gandhi, Jesus and Mother Theresa to boot. The Pope, the Dalai Lama, Martin Luther King, Babaji. Who else would you like on the list? Fuck them all and fuck Omjaroo too. Worship means nothing. Reverence is nothing more then ass kissing cowardice and hypocrisy. Do you suppose for a second that any of these people want you, me or anyone else to worship them? Holy crap! It’s all bullshit and they would be the first ones to tell you as much. You want to talk to me about reverence? I know what real reverence it. It is when you stop begging (admiring, worshiping) the great and noble people of history like they could do something for you and start living your life like they did. You want to have reverence for God, then tell and live in the Truth and in Love; express Intelligence ; live by Principle and revere Life. Because God is Life, Love, Truth, Intelligence, Soul, Principle and Spirit. Admire and revere Jesus Christ, Gandhi? Then try living like them for even five minutes a day. These were both fighters and irreverent as hell. Don’t bother praying to or admiring Mother Theresa, try putting others before yourself. Now that’s real reverence. Try living in the piss and shit she did. Draw a dying, pus soaked body to you and comfort and still someone’s fear. Don’t talk to me about reverence. It means shit… God’s Love, Jared PS. Think I am afraid of being punished for what I’ve said? Not even. Karma? Bring it on! I’ve said a lot worse and really did mean it. Besides, reverent or not, casual or not, God does and always has blessed me. And I thank God for this. Namaste
Response:
Wade, Somewhere along the line I got the impression that you have little use for or understanding of anything I have to convey. I can’t remember the last time you had anything positive or especially constructive to say to me. I do however remember you launching into me when you thought that I was at a disadvantage in that cross posted thread on siddhis. I have the distinct impression that you have never once understood what I have posted from the very first post you ever replied to. I mean really, do a search on your nic and mine and tell me we have ever been even close to one mind. Mostly I have the impression that you are self rigorous and condescending; judge what I say and then accuse me of doing the very same thing. But having said that, as long as you respond to my posts, I will continue to respond to yours until you ask me not to or until I get the impression you are simply trolling for a response. I have in the past been accused of being a bit goody two shoes, or Polly Anna like in my view of the world. E.g., there’s only God and God is Good, so only Good exists, etc. So just for a change of pace I’ll step out of my roll of saint like optimist and respond in a manner I have a bit more experience and facility with. It’s about the sacred and the profane, and the level of reverence.
Wasn’t there a book, poem or quote to this effect? Really, I make a point of giving others credit when I use their words. The casual use of the word "God"
Would you be suggesting that I use the word God casually? I have never used the word God casually in my life. Even when I say God Damn it, I am still aware that I am speaking God’s name You might notice I always capitalize the word God. You’ll also notice anytime I refer to an attribute of God I also capitalize it. This is a form of Bhakti practice for me and not meant for your consumption but if you paid the least attention to what I write you might notice it. is like a tourist going into a temple and prattling on, comparing his personal beliefs,
Would you be suggesting I prattle? Surely you’ve noticed some deliberateness in what I say and how I say it? while the real worshippers inside are silently going about their reverential worship. "God" is a very sacred area for many people. There is a reason that many religions do not utter the name of their "God", it is considered profane.
Boy, not saying God because it’s considered profane. Now that has to my my definition of: completely stupid and idiotic beyond belief. Are there really such people? Then I grieve for them and offer this prayer: God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God. You know what? Fuck God, fuck God in his ass. And Buddha, Gandhi, Jesus and Mother Theresa to boot. The Pope, the Dalai Lama, Martin Luther King, Babaji. Who else would you like on the list? Fuck them all and fuck Omjaroo too. Worship means nothing. Reverence is nothing more then ass kissing cowardice and hypocrisy. Do you suppose for a second that any of these people want you, me or anyone else to worship them? Holy crap! It’s all bullshit and they would be the first ones to tell you as much. You want to talk to me about reverence? I know what real reverence it. It is when you stop begging (admiring, worshiping) the great and noble people of history like they could do something for you and start living your life like they did. You want to have reverence for God, then tell and live in the Truth and in Love; express Intelligence ; live by Principle and revere Life. Because God is Life, Love, Truth, Intelligence, Soul, Principle and Spirit. Admire and revere Jesus Christ, Gandhi? Then try living like them for even five minutes a day. These were both fighters and irreverent as hell. Don’t bother praying to or admiring Mother Theresa, try putting others before yourself. Now that’s real reverence. Try living in the piss and shit she did. Draw a dying, pus soaked body to you and comfort and still someone’s fear. Don’t talk to me about reverence. It means shit… God’s Love, Jared PS. Think I am afraid of being punished for what I’ve said? Not even. Karma? Bring it on! I’ve said a lot worse and really did mean it. Besides, reverent or not, casual or not, God does and always has blessed me. And I thank God for this. Namaste
Response:
Jared, It’s about the sacred and the profane, and the level of reverence. The casual use of the word "God" is like a tourist going into a temple and prattling on, comparing his personal beliefs, while the real worshippers inside are silently going about their reverential worship. "God" is a very sacred area for many people. There is a reason that many religions do not utter the name of their "God", it is considered profane. It is not that Shahin is an aetheist, its because he has a deeply sacred sensibility. Wade
Response:
Shahin, My apologies for the delayed response but I am in the process moving from my home. Since I don’t know exactly where I am going (the kids can go to mom’s full time), there are numerous arrangements, accommodations and details to take care of and little time to do it. Please forgive my brevity. Perhaps after things settle down I can respond as I want and in the manor your posts deserve. I think Stu’s finest contribution was facilitating this process of "getting to know you". And you generously abided, Jared. I’ll try to do the same.
Thanks Thank you for sharing part of your life experience, and the pains that you have been bearing while forging a rich character, evident from the way you express yourself.
Your welcome. And thank you for the kind words. This exchange, in my view, has been more enriching for me than our previous one. Broad general knowledge has been a feature of my personal culture since childhood. But experiential knowledge is something else. That probably explains my reaction: believing that experiential knowledge has more value than *blind faith* often vested in "half-understood" ideas about G%*?d, or philosophical and scientific theories. Yoga, in its broadest teachings, seems to me about the most extraordinary of disciplines in human heritage to satisfy my need for THAT kind of understanding, when it comes to self-knowledge. So, my fellow classmate, thank you for being an edifying means in my growingly integrated education.
For me also and I couldn’t agree more. Personal experience is far more valuable to me then books full of text and commentaries. Please don’t tell me who or what you think I am, or quote me what someone else says, share with me who you are, what worked, what didn’t, where you’re going and where you’ve been. How do you think, feel and live. This is valuable and worth listening to and investing thought in the review and a response. The other is important but it is everywhere. Non-presentation, forthrightness and honesty are as rare as hen’s teeth 
I still maintain, and indeed am convinced that the _idea_ of "God" is nothing more than a facilitator in leading to a higher state of understanding, where words a attributes lose their sense and application. The realm of unmanifest. The ineffable. The realised. I have been struggling with this with a feeling of frustration for a long time, and only recently have begun to walk past this obstacle, which is naught but yet another illusion.
I agree and I think this is very true, but I’ve also come to believe that God can be known here and now. How do you spell paradox? I think perhaps it is the difference between trying to see the source (impossible) and the expression of the source (doable) I’ve spent fifteen years contemplating and trying to grasp the meaning of Everything, Is and Of and As God. I’ve only recently begun to share (alt.yoga) what I have learned. As you can see the words I use to communicate what my experience and knowledge are hopelessly inadequate and what others hear and see is trite, offensive and irreverent I have tried posting my understanding in poems that I wrote but even these have generally been ignored or dismissed. I can see why every time Jesus opened his mouth someone wanted to stone him to death. Words spoken without a context can not communicate. This is why the words along with personal meaning and context are more valuable to me. Here is one for yoga: S**t happens in forward bend! In chapter fifteen (15.14) Krishna says he is in Prana and Apana, and is involved in the digestion process. :) I’d say "God" is also in our species’ unique quality of sense of humour.
That is truly inspired ))) You and Hari Har Singh definitely have the gift! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to go and give my son a lift, and sorry I am writing this in a rush. Have a couple myself, they can be less then understanding and patient sometimes I have two sons. My older one is now a young independent man; a university student. The 14 years old one is my now personal friend. Earlier in the week I had to go and help to rescue his Christmas present which was stuck 30 meters high, up a tall tree in a field: a radio controlled plane, which he partly financed himself from his wages form a job as a trainee hospitality manager: a waiter for one of my clients for whom I recently finished a restaurant. He is a lovely lad who appeals to the childlike aspects of me which is playful and curious … a quality that has kept me young, heart and body. We spent today together repairing the plane, cooking, and swimming –
What a delightful sharing, thanks. I might not be alive today but for the birth of my daughter 22 years ago. It was at that moment as I looked at her that I felt (small as it was) I had a reason to live. A responsibility to pull myself out of the shit hole (mentally, spiritually and physically) I was in, in order to protect and nurture this little being. While I would eventually miss a great deal of my daughter’s growing up (we are still estranged) I can now occasionally feel joy in watching my son’s (12 & 14) as they grow. I do most of my asanas and my pranayama exercises during my swimming session (every evening for one and a half hours). I have been doing this for over twenty years, regularly. I am a masters swimmer at competitive level, fit and strong, with the kind of physique that most yoga aspirants aim for: lean, defined and supple, and still improving. I am 50, happily divorced, currently a practicing celibate, and enjoying it.
All the work (jhana, karma, bhakti, recovery ) I have managed has gotten me to the point where I am nearly ready and able to start hatha, pranayama and meditation in earnest. However I am beginning to think it is my bad habits and attachments which keep me here in this world. I feel as if, were I able to remove the interference created by body, mind and soul, that I would disappear (melt) into Love (the void.) My Pilates teacher, in a dialogue last week, told me that I am a very lucky man (not for my physique, of course:), for something else we were talking about … I have a talent for making people successful through the use of the tools of my profession – I am a management consultant as well as a commercial interior designer and project manager). I work independently, because I *can’t* have a boss, it’s not in the nature – including a strong character English wife with whom I still maintain friendly relationship, albeit living in two "independent" households. It’s been a challenge, as well as great blessing … "Freedom and independence" to all mankind in all the forms that suite their nature. :)
Understood. I can relate. I had never considered myself lucky until now, because of the challenges involved in my way of life. So, this year, amongst my other resolutions, I will be mindful and grateful for my good fortunes, and most of all, I would wish you good fortune in great abundance as you grow into that which your nature wants you to be.
There is no luck, no mistakes, no advantages or capriciousness in the Universe. If you could see all the equations the math would be perfect. Can’t wait until the quantum physicists catch up to Einstein’s unified field theory. That will be fun. I think it will be the atheists who finally proof there is God. In the mean time I too am ever more grateful for what I have and I wish it and all the best for you and yours. Love, Shahin
As well, Jared Namaste
Response:
I think Stu’s finest contribution was facilitating this process of "getting to know you".
And you generously abided, Jared. I’ll try to do the same. Thank you for sharing part of your life experience, and the pains that you have been bearing while forging a rich character, evident from the way you express yourself. This exchange, in my view, has been more enriching for me than our previous one. Broad general knowledge has been a feature of my personal culture since childhood. But experiential knowledge is something else. That probably explains my reaction: believing that experiential knowledge has more value than *blind faith* often vested in "half-understood" ideas about G%*?d, or philosophical and scientific theories. Yoga, in its broadest teachings, seems to me about the most extraordinary of disciplines in human heritage to satisfy my need for THAT kind of understanding, when it comes to self-knowledge. So, my fellow classmate, thank you for being an edifying means in my growingly integrated education. I still maintain, and indeed am convinced that the _idea_ of "God" is nothing more than a facilitator in leading to a higher state of understanding, where words a attributes lose their sense and application. The realm of unmanifest. The ineffable. The realised. I have been struggling with this with a feeling of frustration for a long time, and only recently have begun to walk past this obstacle, which is naught but yet another illusion. In the Gita’s metaphor, Krishna’s avatar speaks of his "maya" state (the manifest; Maya means illusion. In Persian, a language related to Sanskrit, maya means: "matter"; "means"; "tool"; "potential"), when he takes on *forms* such as other deities, material existence, humans, mind, language and so on. He who can find God in digestive activities in as much measure as in heavens must be an enlightened one which reminds me of your recent humorous post. Here is one for yoga: S**t happens in forward bend! In chapter fifteen (15.14) Krishna says he is in Prana and Apana, and is involved in the digestion process. :) I’d say "God" is also in our species’ unique quality of sense of humour. I have to go and give my son a lift, and sorry I am writing this in a rush. Have a couple myself, they can be less then understanding and patient sometimes
I have two sons. My older one is now a young independent man; a university student. The 14 years old one is my now personal friend. Earlier in the week I had to go and help to rescue his Christmas present which was stuck 30 meters high, up a tall tree in a field: a radio controlled plane, which he partly financed himself from his wages form a job as a trainee hospitality manager: a waiter for one of my clients for whom I recently finished a restaurant. He is a lovely lad who appeals to the childlike aspects of me which is playful and curious … a quality that has kept me young, heart and body. We spent today together repairing the plane, cooking, and swimming – I do most of my asanas and my pranayama exercises during my swimming session (every evening for one and a half hours). I have been doing this for over twenty years, regularly. I am a masters swimmer at competitive level, fit and strong, with the kind of physique that most yoga aspirants aim for: lean, defined and supple, and still improving. I am 50, happily divorced, currently a practicing celibate, and enjoying it. My Pilates teacher, in a dialogue last week, told me that I am a very lucky man (not for my physique, of course:), for something else we were talking about … I have a talent for making people successful through the use of the tools of my profession – I am a management consultant as well as a commercial interior designer and project manager). I work independently, because I *can’t* have a boss, it’s not in the nature – including a strong character English wife with whom I still maintain friendly relationship, albeit living in two "independent" households. It’s been a challenge, as well as great blessing … "Freedom and independence" to all mankind in all the forms that suite their nature. :) I had never considered myself lucky until now, because of the challenges involved in my way of life. So, this year, amongst my other resolutions, I will be mindful and grateful for my good fortunes, and most of all, I would wish you good fortune in great abundance as you grow into that which your nature wants you to be. Love, Shahin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Namaste
Response:
Stu, Compassion dictates that we understand the "truth" inside both these points of view.
Thanks for the assist. Namaste
Response:
Shahin, Hi, I am glad to get your response. I appreciate your thoughfulness and effort in posting. Dear Omjaroo I realise that my reaction to you was harsh, and hope that I didn’t hurt your feelings.
I am ever reminded that we often can’t hear what others are saying unless it is what we want to hear. Unless it conforms to and can pass through our internal filters somewhat intact. Of course you did not hurt my feelings. You don’t have that power. Only I can so that and in this case I didn’t feel a need to. I was however surprised (silly me, although I have to admit it is a pleasure to recognize I have some measure of vulnerability). Along with my initial emotional processing of your (Dad’s – gee what did I do wrong, why am I not good enough, etc.) rebuke I was at once thrilled and gratified that an individual would honestly share their thoughts about me, with me and others. I have been criticized by others for violating their personal sensibilities but I sensed a certain honesty and forthrightness in yours. Then I did a google search and found out why I recognized your name and style. Reactions to my words are an issue on the receiving end. I have no power to offend, hurt feeling, irritate, spark outrage or resentment (or save, make feel good, ease pain, etc). Any feelings or thoughts generated by the reading of my words are created by and belong to the person reading them. This to me is common sense. The only power I have (woefully less then I would like) is to express who I am, how I think, what I feel as honestly as I can. A favorite quote from Emilio Zola says, the purpose of my art is to life my life out loud. And this is what I aspire to because it is what I fear most. As an artist I am sure you realize there is no accounting for taste. I figured out (intellectually; emotionally I am just catching up) some time ago that it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks. That I am the one accountable for my thoughts, actions and their consequences. To thy own self be true, said some smart guy awhile back and I believe it. After all I am the only one who knows what is true about me and what the whole story is. I learned this lesson in the most graphic terms as I stood in front of a judge listening to all the things I supposedly did and all the reasons I did them. All inaccurate and utterly false (but they sounded plausible). To all concerned this was undoubtedly the truth, how could it not be? Fortunately after hearing my side the judge felt there were possibly two good explanations for the circumstance and this created a reasonable doubt in his mind so the traffic ticket was dropped. It was a strange (and ugly) feeling, knowing what the truth was and listening to an attack being made on me which was completely false, yet true in the perception of the professional policeman. A similar situation would play out years later as I stood in another court (we are a very legalistic society here in the U.S.) and listened to an attack on me with lies and fabrications being made for financial motive. This time the stakes were higher and I was facing county jail time. Same story. I knew what was true and why the people accusing me were lying. In this case the State (district attorney, whose job was to put me in jail) stepped in on my behalf and resolved the matter without prejudice to me. Simply amazing! Again six years later I would stand in another court (hey is there a pattern here?) in an attempt to protect myself and my children from an abusive spouse and listen to a litany of lies, fabrications, hatred, fear and emotional (and social) manipulation. The only way I could have defended myself was to attack my wife. I was unwilling to do that so this time around I stood nearly silent. This would continue for another 5-6 hearings. And in fact continues to this day. Same lies, same social sanctions and ignorance, same options to hurt my wife to protect myself. In my life the only real effective strategy has been to tell the truth and stay with that because. What passes for the truth in the eyes of others is all to often whatever they want it to be. As you have mentioned above, we have had a pleasant exchange of views in the past, and I hold you to be a very nice fellow.
Thank you for saying so. The feeling is mutual. I think you will find the answer to most of your questions above in my recent posts.
I have the most rudimentary Usenet service and they drop threads fairly quickly. I wasn’t following your thread with Wade but I did find and read it on google. I understand. What’s interesting is that your views on religion seem to be remarkably similar to mine. I personally have little use for it. Stu said something about bible quotes and recently I was deemed a religious zealot in another thread. Whew. Preaching, zealot, bible thumper all because I use the word God. I don’t think I have ever posted or referred to the practice of any religion. I can quote from the Gita, the upanishads, the vedas and any number or religious texts, some well know, others obscure. I just quoted from the bible because it is a well known reference and I happen to be currently taking lessons in it. I guess I should assume some sensitivity around Christianity by other religious and cultural followers. The Christians have a reputation for aggressively preaching. Stu has also made a perceptive contribution to this discussion.
Yes he has and I sense they were motivated by a desire to be helpful and I appreciate them. At the moment I could only make time to reply to Wade, since I have to go and pay attention to my family members and my other duties. I will hopefully make time to address some of your points in an opportune time.
This I understand, I two am a householder (or least I will be for another week or two, just got my eviction notice 
I have to say that I am an occasional browser and participant of alt.yoga due to my time, and not able to follow everyone’s contribution. I was not for example aware of a background that Stu has mentioned in his post. Please do not be disheartened by my self-confessed "Rajistic" reaction, as I *perceived* a "Tamasic" tendency. I like the kind of mental tools that yoga present us with, don’t you?
Not quite sure I get this, you seem to have a knack for abbreviating comment. So, I hope there’s no hard feelings.
Of course not… As long as there is conversation (communication) , there is always an opportunity to get to know someone better. I think Stu’s finest contribution was facilitating this process of "getting to know you". I have to go and give my son a lift, and sorry I am writing this in a rush.
Have a couple myself, they can be less then understanding and patient sometimes Namaste – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Shahin, Interesting… I’ve read your post a dozen times and I still don’t quite get it. So I will respond, point for point. I hope you’ll respond. After all you felt strongly enough to say what you did to the whole world. Wouldn’t it be a point of honor to allow me an exchange and perhaps some clarification? Regardless, you are not the only one reading this so, it’s important that I respond. By the way, I remember the last exchange we had re: yoga and acting. It was quite pleasant and one of my personal favorites. What you have written above is moonshine.
Homemade whiskey? An intoxicant. Opiate of the masses ala Marx. Is this what you meant? A regurgitation of half-learnt knowledge spoken by every cult and religion known to mankind.
You know what? I have studied perhaps 50-60% of all the religions (the main ones for sure) and I have never heard this idea stated as such anywhere but in Science of Mind and Yoga (which is a science, not a religion). Fact is not long ago (and today in certain parts of the world) I could be put to death for making such an assertion (they certainly took Jesus to task for it). So between your moonshine comment and your every religion comment I am going to hazard a guess that you are atheist. Please don’t assume that I believe being atheist is negative, I don’t. I think everyone thinking person will be one at some time in their live(s). About the half learnt knowledge comment. Up until the time I knew there was God, I would have considered myself an atheist or at least and agnostic. I didn’t start to study religion or even say the G word, until I possessed that knowledge. So half learnt is inaccurate. In fact learnt doesn’t work for me either, I would say realized would be more to the point. One who is really in possession of the "truth" of "God" (!) will not offer such trite advice.
I can’t even fathom how you could term the knowing of the existence of God or any advice or claim in that regard as "trite". Britney Spears is trite, God is not. But if you are atheist, then I guess I could see it. I will give you unoriginal (trite) though. After all there is nothing new under the sun. (whoops, another trite saying) The awesome truth will be _realised_ at a level _above_ "God"
These words don’t refer to anything and so they don’t mean anything to me. What awesome truth? Do you know something you would you share it with me (us)? There is _no_ "God", (or gods), as frightening or disconcerting as it may appear.
What can I say? Simply not true. And yes you are very right, any discussion along this line would be hopelessly pointless for both you and I. I don’t believe either of us needs or wants a discussion of is there God. Is that correct? As I have said before, any comments I make are for whoever wants them and for whatever reason they want them. The last thing I am trying to do is convince anyone of anything. (I bet you don’t believe that. And I wouldn’t either if I was you. But I’m not you I am me; so believe it). At that level, "God" would cease to exist to reveal a higher quality. It is experiential, ineffable, unspeakable. It should be _found_ not given away, much less in your kind of preaching.
How right you are! But you know what? I may have struggled much longer then I did, had someone(s) not planted the seeds of possibility in my mind, which would eventually awaken and allow me hear the Truth. Remember there was no God in my world (and yes it was very frightening and disconcerting, not to mention painful) but there was God in some other’s world and they talked (not preached) about it. Thank God they did. All in all they were a pretty tuff bunch. I respected the ones who had been to prison the most. I find your incessant repetition of the word "God" distasteful if not downright offensive.
Why? (real question) Jared Namaste
Response:
"omjaroo" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shahin, Interesting… I’ve read your post a dozen times and I still don’t quite get it. So I will respond, point for point. I hope you’ll respond. After all you felt strongly enough to say what you did to the whole world. Wouldn’t it be a point of honor to allow me an exchange and perhaps some clarification? Regardless, you are not the only one reading this so, it’s important that I respond. By the way, I remember the last exchange we had re: yoga and acting. It was quite pleasant and one of my personal favorites. What you have written above is moonshine. Homemade whiskey? An intoxicant. Opiate of the masses ala Marx. Is this what you meant? A regurgitation of half-learnt knowledge spoken by every cult and religion known to mankind. You know what? I have studied perhaps 50-60% of all the religions (the main ones for sure) and I have never heard this idea stated as such anywhere but in Science of Mind and Yoga (which is a science, not a religion). Fact is not long ago (and today in certain parts of the world) I could be put to death for making such an assertion (they certainly took Jesus to task for it). So between your moonshine comment and your every religion comment I am going to hazard a guess that you are atheist. Please don’t assume that I believe being atheist is negative, I don’t. I think everyone thinking person will be one at some time in their live(s). About the half learnt knowledge comment. Up until the time I knew there was God, I would have considered myself an atheist or at least and agnostic. I didn’t start to study religion or even say the G word, until I possessed that knowledge. So half learnt is inaccurate. In fact learnt doesn’t work for me either, I would say realized would be more to the point. One who is really in possession of the "truth" of "God" (!) will not offer such trite advice. I can’t even fathom how you could term the knowing of the existence of God or any advice or claim in that regard as "trite". Britney Spears is trite, God is not. But if you are atheist, then I guess I could see it. I will give you unoriginal (trite) though. After all there is nothing new under the sun. (whoops, another trite saying) The awesome truth will be _realised_ at a level _above_ "God" These words don’t refer to anything and so they don’t mean anything to me. What awesome truth? Do you know something you would you share it with me (us)? There is _no_ "God", (or gods), as frightening or disconcerting as it may appear. What can I say? Simply not true. And yes you are very right, any discussion along this line would be hopelessly pointless for both you and I. I don’t believe either of us needs or wants a discussion of is there God. Is that correct? As I have said before, any comments I make are for whoever wants them and for whatever reason they want them. The last thing I am trying to do is convince anyone of anything. (I bet you don’t believe that. And I wouldn’t either if I was you. But I’m not you I am me; so believe it). At that level, "God" would cease to exist to reveal a higher quality. It is experiential, ineffable, unspeakable. It should be _found_ not given away, much less in your kind of preaching. How right you are! But you know what? I may have struggled much longer then I did, had someone(s) not planted the seeds of possibility in my mind, which would eventually awaken and allow me hear the Truth. Remember there was no God in my world (and yes it was very frightening and disconcerting, not to mention painful) but there was God in some other’s world and they talked (not preached) about it. Thank God they did. All in all they were a pretty tuff bunch. I respected the ones who had been to prison the most. I find your incessant repetition of the word "God" distasteful if not downright offensive. Why? (real question) Jared Namaste
Dear Omjaroo I realise that my reaction to you was harsh, and hope that I didn’t hurt your feelings. As you have mentioned above, we have had a pleasant exchange of views in the past, and I hold you to be a very nice fellow. I think you will find the answer to most of your questions above in my recent posts. Stu has also made a perceptive contribution to this discussion. At the moment I could only make time to reply to Wade, since I have to go and pay attention to my family members and my other duties. I will hopefully make time to address some of your points in an opportune time. I have to say that I am an occasional browser and participant of alt.yoga due to my time, and not able to follow everyone’s contribution. I was not for example aware of a background that Stu has mentioned in his post. Please do not be disheartened by my self-confessed "Rajistic" reaction, as I *perceived* a "Tamasic" tendency. I like the kind of mental tools that yoga present us with, don’t you? So, I hope there’s no hard feelings. I have to go and give my son a lift, and sorry I am writing this in a rush. Take care, Shahin
Response:
I read that Budha, after 6 years of efforts, and after he dropped the efforts and the moment came and he reached…..is that sure for anyone else? I wonder too if one has to be 100% mentally healthy before at least starting to deserve what he would get? Any thoughts? — Elias
If you have the ability to think you have the ability to meditate. Meditation will help you towards 100% mentally healthy. Meditation should be all about effortlessness. — ~Stu
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "omjaroo" wrote Elias, A few thoughts in the normal "you" form. The "I" statements are in brackets. I long for understanding, yet the more I keep thinking of it, the more it seems that I am reaching no where. That’s because you are already there. [That's because I am already there.] Same time if I drop this idea and go living, and trying to be more aware in my life, then I remember that I am not doing anything towards my ultimate goal. There is no goal. Goals are a construct of desires. [There are no goals. Goals are a construct of my desire and fear] I am starting to feel that one needs no education to reach awareness, it would happen naturally and w/o efforts as one would breath w/o efforts. In this you are correct. Do whatever you want, it doesn’t matter. [No matter what I do it changes nothing] You are already there. You have never been anywhere else. If you must do something then accept what is true now. [All I need to do is to accept what is true, right now, there is only God] You are whatever God is just as a drop of sea water is whatever the ocean is. You always have been and you always will be, because there is and only every has been, Now. Namaste Dear Omjaroo, What you have written above is moonshine. A regurgitation of half-learnt knowledge spoken by every cult and religion known to mankind. One who is really in possession of the "truth" of "God" (!) will not offer such trite advice. There is _no_ "God", (or gods), as frightening or disconcerting as it may appear. The awesome truth will be _realised_ at a level _above_ "God". At that level, "God" would cease to exist to reveal a higher quality. It is experiential, ineffable, unspeakable. It should be _found_ not given away, much less in your kind of preaching. I find your incessant repetition of the word "God" distasteful if not downright offensive. Please forgive me for not responding to your reply should you make one, if I consider it pointless. Regards, Shahin
Shahin, Its funny – I agree with you and I also agree with Omjaroo. I too am ever so slightly offended by his repetition of biblical references and the word "god". They have a tendency to limit the unlimited infinite nature of the Void. However, it is important to understand Omjaroo’s story, as a yoga student struggling with alcoholism. Omjaroo clearly has used the xtain mythology to help climb out of this addiction. It clearly has been a positive force in his life. And he wants to share this with those who come to this group. (I hope I am not out of line here). It is not like he has attempted to prosthesis (which really offends me), but has clearly charitable intentions in his responses to those seeking council on the NG. An integral approach to this conundrum would be to understand that this limited view of "god" is important to Omjaroo’s current spiritual growth, where your spiritual growth has clearly transcended that limited definition. Compassion dictates that we understand the "truth" inside both these points of view. — ~Stu
Response:
"omjaroo" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Elias, A few thoughts in the normal "you" form. The "I" statements are in brackets. I long for understanding, yet the more I keep thinking of it, the more it seems that I am reaching no where. That’s because you are already there. [That's because I am already there.] Same time if I drop this idea and go living, and trying to be more aware in my life, then I remember that I am not doing anything towards my ultimate goal. There is no goal. Goals are a construct of desires. [There are no goals. Goals are a construct of my desire and fear] I am starting to feel that one needs no education to reach awareness, it would happen naturally and w/o efforts as one would breath w/o efforts. In this you are correct. Do whatever you want, it doesn’t matter. [No matter what I do it changes nothing] You are already there. You have never been anywhere else. If you must do something then accept what is true now. [All I need to do is to accept what is true, right now, there is only God] You are whatever God is just as a drop of sea water is whatever the ocean is. You always have been and you always will be, because there is and only every has been, Now. Namaste
Dear Omjaroo, What you have written above is moonshine. A regurgitation of half-learnt knowledge spoken by every cult and religion known to mankind. One who is really in possession of the "truth" of "God" (!) will not offer such trite advice. There is _no_ "God", (or gods), as frightening or disconcerting as it may appear. The awesome truth will be _realised_ at a level _above_ "God". At that level, "God" would cease to exist to reveal a higher quality. It is experiential, ineffable, unspeakable. It should be _found_ not given away, much less in your kind of preaching. I find your incessant repetition of the word "God" distasteful if not downright offensive. Please forgive me for not responding to your reply should you make one, if I consider it pointless. Regards, Shahin
Response:
Hello, If you were told the future, how would you react? Would you ruin / interfere w/ the events that were going to happen if you hadn’t knew about it? If "’you’ knowing the future" is a predicted part and even if you knew then a predicted course of action is already there for you? I have read that unless you drop all expectations, all desires and thoughts, you won’t reach. I long for understanding, yet the more I keep thinking of it, the more it seems that I am reaching no where. Same time if I drop this idea and go living, and trying to be more aware in my life, then I remember that I am not doing anything towards my ultimate goal. Again there is confusion…some say drop efforts, some say stop wasting time and work for it… I am starting to feel that one needs no education to reach awarness, it would happen naturally and w/o efforts as one would breath w/o efforts. But it seems my mind made this statement to delude me or keep me waiting. But what to do if you keep expecting to reach awarness but then after frustration you would drop this goal and go on living w/o reaching your goal. I read that Budha, after 6 years of efforts, and after he dropped the efforts and the moment came and he reached…..is that sure for anyone else? I wonder too if one has to be 100% mentally healthy before at least starting to deserve what he would get? Any thoughts? — Elias
Response:
Elias, A few thoughts in the normal "you" form. The "I" statements are in brackets. I long for understanding, yet the more I keep thinking of it, the more it seems that I am reaching no where.
That’s because you are already there. [That's because I am already there.] Same time if I drop this idea and go living, and trying to be more aware in my life, then I remember that I am not doing anything towards my ultimate goal.
There is no goal. Goals are a construct of desires. [There are no goals. Goals are a construct of my desire and fear] I am starting to feel that one needs no education to reach awareness, it would happen naturally and w/o efforts as one would breath w/o efforts.
In this you are correct. Do whatever you want, it doesn’t matter. [No matter what I do it changes nothing] You are already there. You have never been anywhere else. If you must do something then accept what is true now. [All I need to do is to accept what is true, right now, there is only God] You are whatever God is just as a drop of sea water is whatever the ocean is. You always have been and you always will be, because there is and only every has been, Now. Namaste
Response:
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) There was no links on her from yahoo, but looking for Parwati made me find a lot. Thanks for the information, I will keep looking into this! Maybe I can find some more informaion in India when I go there again next month. Lene -)