Monkfish Those are excellent suggestions.  I especially like the idea of a safe place to go med-free because the medication makes me into a hermit. penguin

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I don’t know if this answers any of your questions, but here we go, anyway . . . What i want to see from the men in white coats: – the recognition that the ‘mentally ill’ are first and foremost human beings and an acceptance of them as equals – facilities made widely availble where people can go to remain med-free in a friendly environment – work in cooperation with meditation teachers, yoga instructors, etc., etc. to develop better coping skills to enable individuals with milder symptoms to manage without meds – the development of better coping skills in general that focus on the individual’s lifestyle in its totality, as an organic whole.  That is, an end to the attempt to eliminate just those aspects labelled by some as ’symptoms’.  This also applies most definitely to the practise of psychotherapy. – a better understanding that sz symptoms and those of other ‘mental illnesses’ derive very directly from those aspects of our being that make us human and that, far too often, ‘curing’ the individual of one ‘cures’ him of the other, as well – an end to rigid neo-Kraeplinian diagnostic criteria, to be replaced by a critical appraisal of each individual on a case-by-case basis, none of this shoe-horning people into one criteria or another, just to keep things orderly.  If you are in love, you will take exception to the suggestion that you have a generic experience of that love.  The same is true with ‘mental illness’.  Our experience is unique and personal and individual to us, whether it is of love and life or of misery and despair. – a better understanding of health/sanity as a positivity; that is, as more than merely the absence of symptoms, coupled with greater efforts to help people reach that goal.  Art, literature, philosophy, religion must play a crucial role in this.  Every shrink and psychiatric case-worker must be made to read and understand Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Musil, Camus, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Wittgenstein, etc., etc. – and not just as examples of ‘psychopathology’ – an acceptance of the fact that schizophrenic experience often has a legitimate revelatory character, affording religious, philosophical, artistic, etc. insights normally denied the normal population – a wider recognition and acceptance of schizophrenic transcendental experiences in general, but more specifically a recognition of the positive, life-changing benefits such experiences can have.  A crucial aspect of this acceptance has to be a willingness on the part of mental health care professionals to work with individuals to forge a post-psychotic personality that preserves and even builds upon various transcendental or religious schizophrenic experiences to give rise to a recovery identity that does not necessarily conform to accepted cultural standards.  Psychiatry should not concern itself with preserving the status quo but should aim to help as many individuals as possible – ‘mentally ill’ or not – to achieve a mode of existence of optimal health and sanity, living their lives as fully human beings – creative, loving, spontaneous. The group that needs the most urgent help in this regard are psychiatrists themselves. Psychiatrist, heal thyself. That is all.

Very well said.  Thank you Monkfish. Jim

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I don’t know if this answers any of your questions, but here we go, anyway . . . What i want to see from the men in white coats: – the recognition that the ‘mentally ill’ are first and foremost human beings and an acceptance of them as equals – facilities made widely availble where people can go to remain med-free in a friendly environment – work in cooperation with meditation teachers, yoga instructors, etc., etc. to develop better coping skills to enable individuals with milder symptoms to manage without meds – the development of better coping skills in general that focus on the individual’s lifestyle in its totality, as an organic whole.  That is, an end to the attempt to eliminate just those aspects labelled by some as ’symptoms’.  This also applies most definitely to the practise of psychotherapy. – a better understanding that sz symptoms and those of other ‘mental illnesses’ derive very directly from those aspects of our being that make us human and that, far too often, ‘curing’ the individual of one ‘cures’ him of the other, as well – an end to rigid neo-Kraeplinian diagnostic criteria, to be replaced by a critical appraisal of each individual on a case-by-case basis, none of this shoe-horning people into one criteria or another, just to keep things orderly.  If you are in love, you will take exception to the suggestion that you have a generic experience of that love.  The same is true with ‘mental illness’.  Our experience is unique and personal and individual to us, whether it is of love and life or of misery and despair. – a better understanding of health/sanity as a positivity; that is, as more than merely the absence of symptoms, coupled with greater efforts to help people reach that goal.  Art, literature, philosophy, religion must play a crucial role in this.  Every shrink and psychiatric case-worker must be made to read and understand Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Musil, Camus, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Wittgenstein, etc., etc. – and not just as examples of ‘psychopathology’ – an acceptance of the fact that schizophrenic experience often has a legitimate revelatory character, affording religious, philosophical, artistic, etc. insights normally denied the normal population – a wider recognition and acceptance of schizophrenic transcendental experiences in general, but more specifically a recognition of the positive, life-changing benefits such experiences can have.  A crucial aspect of this acceptance has to be a willingness on the part of mental health care professionals to work with individuals to forge a post-psychotic personality that preserves and even builds upon various transcendental or religious schizophrenic experiences to give rise to a recovery identity that does not necessarily conform to accepted cultural standards.  Psychiatry should not concern itself with preserving the status quo but should aim to help as many individuals as possible – ‘mentally ill’ or not – to achieve a mode of existence of optimal health and sanity, living their lives as fully human beings – creative, loving, spontaneous. The group that needs the most urgent help in this regard are psychiatrists themselves. Psychiatrist, heal thyself. That is all.

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Fly, Your project might not be to the benefit of members of this newsgroup. But some of them might be too gullible to see that. I go by your…. ..scent. Daniel Urtiz Constantine Catholics, unite against the police.

Response:

Thank you very much for your response. We will consider your e-mail for our project.I wish it will be useful for you and/or other schiophrenia patients. All best wishes SbS

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1- What is the main problem of therapies?

i would say the main problem in the U.S. is group therapy.  i’m far too reclusive to tell people my problems in a group setting.

2- How many month you wasted before that medicine useful for you.

i’m not sure i understand the question.  i can feel the effect of antipsychotics within hours.  it takes a couple of weeks for the antidepressant to shine.

3- If you don’t use medicine, why?

i have a habit of going on and off meds.  i often lose jobs when i go off of them.  i don’t like the sedation side effect.

4- If you don’t trust your pschyatrist, why?

i currently see a state doctor.  i don’t have the repoire with her that i had with my previous psychiatrist. m.

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After almost 30 years of this, my chief complaint is that the professionals who handle Sz patients have no practical plan for the life of a person with Sz.  Urging an Sz patient to go get a job, is based on the idea that the Sz patient is a normal person who behaves improperly.  The reality is that the Sz patient is different than normal people and needs a special reachable objective for optimal quality of life.  Such a goal might include finding an optimal income from government and public support programs, and finding practical inexpensive independent housing.  Maybe reading, or watching TV, is a better choice than trying to simulate being a normal person. Sz patients stress other people, and are vulnerable to stress from others. They need to avoid each other.  The professionals look for ways of grouping Sz patients together.  This may reduce costs, but is contrary to the needs of the patients. Due to economic reasons, some patients only have access to the older neuroleptics.  I know from experience that life with positive symptoms is less painful than the side effects of those old anticholinergics.  For myself low doses of the newer atypical neuroleptics is a practical tool, with a net gain in quality of life.  However, individuals vary widely, and a the choice to go without meds and endure Sz induced life disasters may be a correct choice of a lesser evil.  Just because the lack of medication may make the person a problem for others, does not justify forcing them to take meds, which may be remarkably unpleasant, and even harmful. I’m not in the EU.  I’m in the US, but perhaps my input can be useful…. "fly" <group…@gmail.com

wrote in message

news:1127829156.336891.101700@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Dear members of schizophrenia group; We are currently preparing a project to solve big schizophrenia problem. Our project will be funded by EU and our partners are from all over the Europe. We aimed to better understanding genetics of schizophrenia, better pharmaco therapy and identified to environmental factors of schizophrenia. I am the member of this group over two month and i decided to ask to you something. Please answer one/or more of this questions; if you are schizophrenia patient; Please 1- What is the main problem of therapies? 2- How many month you wasted before that medicine useful for you. 3- If you don’t use medicine, why? 4- If you don’t trust your pschyatrist, why? 5- According to you what aim should be for schizophrenia project? We nearly finish the project but may be your e-mail make our project better and may be it will be mak better your therapy. If you would like to send an e-mail to private please send your e-mail to groupfly@gmail If you are not schizophrenia patients and you think you have good ideas for a huge schophrenia project, please don’t hasitate to send an e-mail to us. Thanks in advance All best wishes SbS

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Dear members of schizophrenia group; We are currently preparing a project to solve big schizophrenia problem. Our project will be funded by EU and our partners are from all over the Europe. We aimed to better understanding genetics of schizophrenia, better pharmaco therapy and identified to environmental factors of schizophrenia. I am the member of this group over two month and i decided to ask to you something. Please answer one/or more of this questions; if you are schizophrenia patient; Please 1- What is the main problem of therapies? 2- How many month you wasted before that medicine useful for you. 3- If you don’t use medicine, why? 4- If you don’t trust your pschyatrist, why? 5- According to you what aim should be for schizophrenia project? We nearly finish the project but may be your e-mail make our project better and may be it will be mak better your therapy. If you would like to send an e-mail to private please send your e-mail to groupfly@gmail If you are not schizophrenia patients and you think you have good ideas for a huge schophrenia project, please don’t hasitate to send an e-mail to us. Thanks in advance All best wishes SbS

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fly wrote:

Dear members of schizophrenia group; We are currently preparing a project to solve big schizophrenia problem. Our project will be funded by EU and our partners are from all over the Europe. We aimed to better understanding genetics of schizophrenia, better pharmaco therapy and identified to environmental factors of schizophrenia. I am the member of this group over two month and i decided to ask to you something. Please answer one/or more of this questions; if you are schizophrenia patient; Please 1- What is the main problem of therapies?

I’ve found antipsychotic medication pretty helpful. It was nice talking to my case manager. It probably helped to sort out problems in my mind. She tried to give me some cognitive behaviour therapy once. It didn’t really have much impact on the problems we were trying to address.

2- How many month you wasted before that medicine useful for you.

The full-blown stage of my first episode went for about three months before it was diagnosed. Medication cleared up the delusions in three weeks. With my second episode they restarted medication immediately and the delusions went away in two weeks.

3- If you don’t use medicine, why?

N/A

4- If you don’t trust your pschyatrist, why?

I didn’t trust my psychiatrist during my episode because I thought that everyone was spying on me through hidden video cameras and sending elaborately coded communications to me through various media and trying to punish me for all the bad things I’d done. Fortunately I believed the medication could help and took it regularly so after a while things were okay.

5- According to you what aim should be for schizophrenia project?

I think a useful direction for future research would be an understanding of how the disease affects brain functioning but that may be a bit beyond the scope of your project. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

We nearly finish the project but may be your e-mail make our project better and may be it will be mak better your therapy. If you would like to send an e-mail to private please send your e-mail to groupfly@gmail If you are not schizophrenia patients and you think you have good ideas for a huge schophrenia project, please don’t hasitate to send an e-mail to us. Thanks in advance All best wishes SbS

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Ok (provoking me) more specific….. (let’s see) the moon is always a lady and the sun is always a gentleman (in other way) energy from the left side is more light and fresh (let’s say like in heaven…) energy from the right side is like fire when is moving! But it should move otherwise it gets blocked, and we can’t move our right side of our body. (just like men…) The better way to deal with it is the vinyasa or the ashtanga method (go with the flow…, and fly…., and get refreshed and released….) And the alternate breathing does a great job (as a complement) Moon

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]]> http://yogaposturas.com/yoga-asanas/prana.html/feed 0 http://yogaposturas.com/types-of-yoga/prana-2.html http://yogaposturas.com/types-of-yoga/prana-2.html#comments Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:00:00 +0000 admin http://yogaposturas.com/uncategorized/prana-2.html Question:

Some links, that are good for you: http://www.santosha.com/asanas/ http://www.santosha.com/hatha-yoga.html This one has a book (in portuguese and in english) – ashtanga yoga: You don’t need to follow all the serial, but you can check if you’re doing the asanas well (without the vinyasa) – do it in the way of Hatha yoga: http://www.itsyoga.net/us/tools.asp here you have a pose finder: http://www.theyogashop.co.uk/WEB2004/html/main/students.php another one: http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/index.cfm?ctsrc=tnav the ashtanga yoga again. You don’t need to follow all the serial, but you can check if you’re doing the asanas well (without the vinyasa) – do it in the way of Hatha yoga: http://www.ayri.org/opening-prayer.html Moon

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dear moon ) sorry i did not reply, was very! busy also in depression… my book is 1st issue 1994 but printed 1996 in yugoslavia (serbian lang.) The pranayamas I know and I think are safe for you…

thanx now i plan 2 devote myself 2 reading of book & learning so i’ll try 2 concentrate on ch u suggested *** I use to do three prans before the session of asanas. An after the session of pranayamas we use to rest in savasana or do yoga nidra. *** B) i planned 2 ask u about this in the meantime because from my first yoga book (jasmina puljo – yoga) {which i found btw very shallow book with almost pure physical excer.} (if i remember well) although sometimes (rare) i do little pran. in the middle of asana practice (while relaxation pause in any vertical spinal-column asana), also i do thinking of practicing pranayama after asana… yoga nidra< i only knew what is this basicaly (relaxation technique)

but do not know correctly Just to make sure, avoid generally<<

2 me there is no need 2 say twice, i mostly appreciate! practical advices *** Don’t work with you’re stomach or belly, usually the low breathing is done with the diafragm. The more low is the breathing more calm us. *** the term "low breathing" i am not familiar with, but pressume that u mean that air (energy-prana) entered through nose and through the throat is carry in almost 2 the genitals or low belly (not litteraly but it feels like something like that) The more low is the breathing more calm us<

i also  noticed that & find it good thing, but the way i translated what u wrote i am not sure that is positive or something as "over-calm" also i would like 2 ask u (but not sure if ok before reading of this book) do u – or better is it ok 2 practice pranayama while in stress, depression, bad emotional situation or something similar, until now i read that it is not good 2 practice under that circumstances, also i found similarity that when physical body is tempted it is not good 2 practice it also the right time of the day and such practical inf. or it is individualy as i alredy noted i c yoga in my life as a wonderful way of physical/mental relaxation and health-holder because i feel much more westener (fortunately or not!) – point toward outer world in one sence (not litteraly) so in some way look on yoga as the cut-off from this rough world so i’m very sorry if bothering u with basic questions also thank u much! for links u posted

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Correction: I use to do three prans before the session of asanas. An after the session of asanas we use to rest in savasana or do yoga nidra.

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Follow the link: http://www.yogamatters.com/acatalog/bihar_top_texts.html There are another good book for you (but I don’t have it): "Yoga and Kriya" Swami Satyananda Saraswati Is a course of three years….

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another link (the book here is more expensive – but the has a better explnation): http://theyogashop.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28_39_71&prod…

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I’m still thinking about this: "my breathing is done with "belly-work" – work of stomach little above genitals, when outhbreath it is done by my will, when inbreath i almost leave my body 2 inbreath alone in deep stomach "

go to chapter 20: I think you’re doing kapalabati. But I wouldn’t call it "belly-work", what is working is the diaphragm. Is similar to bhastrika (in this case the air is forced in the 2 ways – in and out) Is a good practice as well as you don’t do bandhas, nor kumbhakas…… Stay allways with the basic methods. "belly-work" – sounds like something else and is a practice called Nauli – in fact is not intended for you: is even more advanced than the bandhas. Iyengar says (in Light on yoga) that is a practice that could be used just only having mastered uddiyana bandha…. Good work! Moon

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hi moon 1) i usually do it just u describe also using gyana mudra 2) ***  This breathing is used to begin with the left side (first intake)…. and ends with the outake of the left side (don’t ask me why). Is safe as long as you don’t hold to much time. *** ok, until now i did contra start & finish on right side *** If you are not very sure what you are doing, stay with those two pranayamas *** that is the case so i’ll gladly stay on this 2 also i’m not so ethusiastic in children sense (could not find better word in dictionary) i do it as a body/mind hygiene, but i would like 2 do it ok what i ment as belly-work is that in this 2 pranayamas i use full capacity of my lungs with start from bottom of it so when inbrething firstly air goes into the bottom (my stomach arises) and even when full inbreath also go to chapter 20: <<

in my book on serbian there is no ch20 (different translation) so on 7.C. KAPALBHATI pranayama is explained (also given table3 & graph) explanation about  active outbreath & passive inbreath suits perfectly on that how i breath until now, so because of active outbreath volume of my lungs goes below normal value after (total) outbreath if that is ok on your opinion i would continue with it 2     thanx on book advices, if i find something of it on next bookfair ill c 2 buy in case of sufficit of $ B) in the meantime i’ll read this 1 i found 1 more book on pranayama on http://www.dlshq.org/download/pranayama.pdf as well as other yoga bookz on http://www.dlshq.org/download/download.htm which was posted here on alt.yoga maybe there is something 4 u in case u have not been there yet thank u much! 4 support

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See if you can find in the version of your book (my version is the english – 2nd edition 2002):The number of the chapters given are of this edition. The pranayamas I know and I think are safe for you, are: – 15 th – Basic breathing:         diaphragmatic or abdominal breathing – is good to calm down         You can do the other types in this capter as well     (don’t hold the breath or hold just for a second or two) – 18th – balancing pran – any one as long you don’t do bandhas. There’s a table in my book – which means you can do the beginers level – 19 th tranquilizing pran – any one: do everything is called basic. Avoid everything is called advanced, and avoid also bandhas – 20 th – vitalizing pran – any one: do everything is called basic. Avoid everything is called advanced, and avoid also bandhas  - 21 st – pran for childreen – everything…..  - 22 nd – asana for pran – do whatever makes you feel confortable as well as you column is straight.  - 23 rd – mudras – any you want   – 24 th – bandhas – forget…(for the time beeing)  - 25 th prana vydia – forget..(for the time beeing) I use to do three prans before the session of asanas. An after the session of pranayamas we use to rest in savasana or do yoga nidra. Just to make sure, avoid generally: – the items intermediate and advanced; – bandhas; – avoid kumbakas (holding) or hold during a very small amount of time. Don’t work with you’re stomach or belly, usually the low breathing is done with the diafragm. The more low is the breathing more calm us. Moon

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I’ve never read that book but Pranayama (breath regulation) is one of the first steps in meditation so the basics is essentially slow, steady breathing. William Lee ‘How To Overcome Pain Thru The POWER Of Meditation’ (Due to graphic images, viewer discretion is advised) http://www.painrelief-meditation-yoga.com/TH/Enter.htm

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thanx on book advices, if i find something of it on next bookfair ill c 2 buy in case of sufficit of $ B) in the meantime i’ll read this 1 i found 1 more book on pranayama on http://www.dlshq.org/download/pranayama.pdf as well as other yoga bookz on http://www.dlshq.org/download/download.htm

Hello again: The line you’re trying to follow is the Satyananda’s. Sivananda was the guru of Satyananda, which means you’re in the same line. Is a mixture of Hatha yoga and other types of yoga and is also related to tantra (the right hand tantra – this means that is the non-sex tantric tradition). You could also try the Iyengar’s tradition. Is advantages is that is a more pure type of hatha yoga, which is good for you, and his books and schools are well spread all over the world. The guru of Iyengar was Krishmacharya, and the main disciples of him were    -  Iyengar;    -  Desikachar (Krishmacharya’s son) – famous by is line

Yes Moon, What you are saying makes a sense.To me that is it! Thanks a lot, it could not be explained better than yours. With compassion, Puma

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Sounds rather Ogdan Nashish to me! — Namaste Dave

"Cushy" is highly relative. I eat, I have a place to live, I have clothes on my back. that is pretty good as far as I am concerned.

Whoooosh! Just had to duck to avoid getting caught by that u-turn. If the "cushy" you refer to in the original statement " I have a cushy and secure government job" is relative, why mention it? Let’s face it, you were bragging. Let’s be honest here, the reason you initially refered to your government job as "cushy" it’s because it’s an overpaid doddle, not because it keeps you above the poverty line. I have taught yoga for free when unemployed and living on handouts.

Cough.. splutter.. how is *that* free? You were performing a service that you could have charged for, yet you "chose" to have the taxpayer fund your existence! But you seem to think that you are adhering to some twisted set of principals. If you give to one stranger you feel it is acceptable to take from another…nice one!  For me, not everything has a dollar value, nor can or should all things can be reduced to a marketable commodity.

Yes, one can easily adopt that mentality when one is on the dole. It’s very easy to pick and choose what you feel has value. But you forget that the money you took from the state when you were in a position to actually pay into it, had value to someone else. What a load of hypocritical self righteous bullshit. You seem to be prone to overgeneralizations.

You seem prone to bouts of insanity mate " I taught ‘free’ Yoga  while poncing off the state" Why do you not do something about these government abuses that you have witnessed instead of whining, and painting all government employees with the same brush. Do not fool yourself, you know diddly squat about me.

Sure I don’t *know* you, but it’s amazing what one can pick up from a couple of Freudian slips. Paul

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Perhaps hbkta teaches yoga for free out of love for mankind or for love of yoga. No. He teaches it because the tax that I pay the state affords him the luxury to teach Yoga for free, therefore **I** pay him to teach Yoga. He is doing no one any favours. I would rather he got a proper job as opposed to his "cushy" government job and charged for his time when he is ‘enlightening’ people.

Hi Paul. First off, I am not "enlightening"  anyone. That is beyond the scope and sphere of my activity. If there is any "enlightening" to be done, that would be up to Isvara, ParamaPurusa, ParamBrahma, … I think your opinion on this is rather hypocritical: on one hand he takes from society (with contempt)

It seems to me that the contempt you see is your own. I am grateful for the "cushy" job that I have lucked into. I suppose I could spend my free time smoking, drinking, lawn bowling, golfing or watching football and strippers. Instead I choose to teach yoga, sorry if that offends you, but hey, shit happens, get over it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – but hey, that’s OK as long as he provides free Yoga! I have worked closely with Civil servants and I am regularly appalled at the time and money the majority of them waste. To praise someone who effectively brags about his cushy civil service life is as shocking and ignorant as the as the perpetrator! Remember, his cushy existence, at our taxpaying expense, means that other people suffer or die due to a lack of money once all the civil servants have pissed it up the wall. Paul

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Perhaps hbkta teaches yoga for free out of love for mankind or for love of yoga. No. He teaches it because the tax that I pay the state affords him the luxury to teach Yoga for free, therefore **I** pay him to teach Yoga. Now you’re being unreasonable. Do you mean that no civil servant should be paid enough to have any spare time at all when he could, for intance, teach yoga? Or would you rather that governments were to be funded by some means other than taxation? Perhaps you are a nihilist, who wants to push the world into a a state of chaos where there is no government at all? Man alive! No, I object to the blokes language, I find it offensive that there are so many people who go without, so that civil servants like him can milk the system and boast about how "cushy" it is. I am not saying civil servants should be paid less, I am saying we could sack the majority of civil servants and no one would notice. He is doing no one any favours. I would rather he got a proper job as opposed to his "cushy" government job and charged for his time when he is ‘enlightening’ people. Anyone who is good at what he does for a living and likes to do it can be said to have a cushy job. Ooh come on! If a civil servant pops up and says he has a "cushy job" any right minded person knows *EXACTLY* where he is comming from! Don’t be ridiculous. I have dealt with people like him a thousand times over on a business level. They are ponces, nothing more nothing less. Notice how he isn’t here defending himself?

Hey Paul. I was not aware that I was under attack and that I needed to defend myself. "Cushy" is highly relative. I eat, I have a place to live, I have clothes on my back. that is pretty good as far as I am concerned. I do not drink, I do not smoke, I ride my bicycle to work in the summer and take public transportation in the winter. I buy new socks and new underwear, and with the exception of the uniform I am required to wear for work, the rest of my wardrobe is second hand clothes. Last time I checked my "cushy" job paid me a wage that put me at the national mean, meaning that there are just as many people making more $ than me as are making less. You are the same Paul who considered it naive to think that one could learn yoga for free, are you not? (referring to post on pilates or yoga thread) well, lots of people learn yoga for free. (Maybe it bugs you because you are not one of them?) lots of people teach it for free. I received my teacher training for free. and one of the conditions attached to that training was a traditional one of not charging anyone for instruction. I accepted the training, and the condition attached. What reason could you have to find that objectionable? I taught yoga for free before I got this ""cushy" job, when I had to work two jobs to support myself and family. I have taught yoga for free when unemployed and living on handouts. For me, not everything has a dollar value, nor can or should all things can be reduced to a marketable commodity. I enjoy teaching yoga, it is fun to do. keeps me off the streets and out of trouble, meet lots of nice people, some even get some benefit from the classes I give. I also find that regular teaching keeps my own practice focused and deepening. You seem to be prone to overgeneralizations. Why do you not do something about these government abuses that you have witnessed instead of whining, and painting all government employees with the same brush. Do not fool yourself, you know diddly squat about me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They all run for cover once someone points them out.  There are such jobs in private corporations too, not just in the government. Yea, but I can **choose** not to pay for them. And they are not taking from little old ladies, or people who need operations, or public transport, etc.. You sound as if you would not be satisfied until we all work day and night at minimum wages in jobs we neither like or are competent for, with the exception of yoga teachers, who should all be royally paid by their students. Dunno where you get that from. Quite the opposite is true, I think honest endeavour is entitled to name it’s price, if you don’t want to pay, buy the cheap stuff. I think your opinion on this is rather hypocritical: on one hand he takes from society (with contempt) but hey, that’s OK as long as he provides free Yoga! I have worked closely with Civil servants and I am regularly appalled at the time and money the majority of them waste. To praise someone who effectively brags about his cushy civil service life is as shocking and ignorant as the as the perpetrator! Remember, his cushy existence, at our taxpaying expense, means that other people suffer or die due to a lack of money once all the civil servants have pissed it up the wall. Maybe your perception of these things is a bit exaggerated. My perception comes from years of first hand experience. I can quote examples that will make your hair stand on end and would also make front page news!!! I have worked with The DTI, the Health Service, Customs and Excise and the Home Office to name a few and regularly witnessed the inherent culture of waste, incompetence and abuse of power. These people negatively affect our wellbeing with relentless consistency, but if they teach free Yoga all is forgiven? "Got to be a joker ’cause he’s so hard to please" — Lennon / McCartney I’m fed up with the dole and the human race, I’m gonna cut me liver out and shove it in your face. – Alberto Y Lost Trio Paranoias. Touch

 I am going to the university nurse now to get stuff pulled out of my ear. Then twill properly be clear, my dear. I was using wet toilet paper as ear plugs, and a chunk got stuck wayyyyy down thar. I’m so stooopid. Mo’ stupid than you. Can you prove it? I dare me to. And I need glue for my reading glasses. Glue I say!

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What university are you attending?  Its in the UK, right? "Lix Tetrax" <scopethel…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:1123113839.308442.33040@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I am going to the university nurse now to get stuff pulled out of my ear. Then twill properly be clear, my dear. I was using wet toilet paper as ear plugs, and a chunk got stuck wayyyyy down thar. I’m so stooopid. Mo’ stupid than you. Can you prove it? I dare me to. And I need glue for my reading glasses. Glue I say!

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I got an eraser stuck in my ear… I was scratching the inside of my ear with a mechanical pencil and the eraser came out inside.. I was 12 or 13 yrs old.. my mom was so mad at me.. she had to use tweezers to get it out -kim

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I was doing a Yoga exercise once and I got my elbow stuck in my ear. True story. Damo

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hahaha, you are such a dork ! -kim

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Lix? How did you lose your bling bling? I’m very sorry to hear such news. No man is an sland. The loss of a bling bling effects us all. Ask not for whomm the Bell tolls. How did it happen? Damo

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Waikato University, its all a sham!

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Hey Damo! Tis a sad and happy tale, *wooshy wooshy flashback special effects*… Twas long ago, a week or perhaps to the day or perhaps next week, that I waz both King and Queen of all the World. People did oft times marvel at by bling-bling, which I obtained when fighting the Dark Lord Sauron, and his sister, Susan. Twas a gigantic, gimungus RUBY-EMERALD-SAPHIRE combination bling-bling with a money back guarantee no less. Any way, yeah I lost it when I was doing the dishes. It fell into a turtles mouth and it went into it’s shell. I know where I can find said turtle, he hangs out with a motor cycle gang called the Salvation Army. So, tis a matter of time, when again, I shall find a special tin opener that opens turtle shells. One of those $4.00 jobs you can get. Then I’ll have a good stern talk and a cup of tea with the turtle, and shall say that he is a bit of an egg, and an egg at that. Then, he might give me back my bling-bling. Or he might not. If he doesn’t, I will result to Plan 9. I will reanimate the recently deceased using nitrous oxide and I will capture Prince Charles! Ahahahahahaha ?!

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It sounds like a plan, Lix. Go for it. And remember, "A bird in the hand catches the worm". Best of luck. Meet up back here at 2100 hours for debriefing. Damo

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KJ, It seems to me that SACRIFICE OF THE EGO is not  correct. First of all one should know what is an EGO! Ego is a false SELF,it is a self has been tailored by others and given to us as an outfit to put on. And we do it but in reality this ego that is (false self) ,and the real self ,(inner self) are in a big fight…Unhappines is the result of this endless fight.The real solution lies within the reaching the real SELF…All we have to do must be to reach the REAL SELF… That is so simple,You can not sacrifice anything if it is false! With compassion, Puma

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – G’day Stu  :)   No worries.  You have my humble apologies for being so quick to judge TM.   I didn’t mention the benefitial side/effects of TM due to the fact that if you search for ‘transcendental meditation’ on Google, most of what you see *is* the benefits and I didn’t think this was balanced.   What I should of done was use that search, but also point out some of the possible criticisms, therefore being   non-biased.   Reading your post helped me realise what my problem is with TM: it seems to me like a money-making scandal.  The practise seems sound [mantras], err, no pun intended, but the other problem I have is that people ( only some ) /apparently/ have side effects from the mantras.   These being a disassociative feeling, feeling dazed afterwards, release of stored anger in a bad fashion, etc.

After the Beetles, The Beach Boys and Moody Blues popularized TM in the 60’s millions of people were initiated.  Of those people I am sure there was a percentage of people with prior mental pathologies.  I suspect that those reporting depersonalization or other mental effects had prior conditions. There is also a condition called the "relaxation response".  People with deeply buried stresses will find that relaxation allows these stresses to surface.  Meditation, massage, asana are exactly what these people need.  They just need to work through it. If TM is dangerous, then all forms of meditation are dangerous.  Like I said it is no big secret of a technique.  You start to say the mantra silently, and when you forget you start it up again.  This is done with the least effort possible.  The method of teaching how to accomplish this with the least effort is Maharishi’s greatest accomplishment.  We don’t pay for the mantra, we pay for the subtle technique trained with careful conformity. You can get the mantra from any Web site on Bija Mantras.  They are no secret.  The trick is in the way the meditation is practiced to be effective.   I don’t like that they ‘forget’ to mention the Hindu side of it – is this true? [Hindu religion side; Puja to Guru Dev] You have been initiated so could you elaborate on it’s validity? To hear it from someone who actually practises TM and not from some website whose motives I don’t actually know would be appreciated and more realistic.

TM has its roots in the Hindu religion.  Maharishi’s book "Science of Being and the Art of Living" is very clear about TM’s roots.  This book was required reading back in the 70’s. It has a chapter dedicated to the teachings of the Hindu bible, "The Bhagavad Gita".    Maharishi has maintained that it is important to practice one’s own religion.  And that TM is fully compatible with other religions. I did not feel deceived when I was initiated.  The Hindu roots were apparent to anyone who goes into a TM center.  And there are a number of Priests, Rabbi’s and Ministers who practice TM along with their faith. However, Fundamentalist xtians seem to have a problem with TM.   Apparently it is not compatible with their interpretation of the bible.  They also have  a problem with all forms of yoga.  For them it is witchcraft.  We are all going to die and go to hell.   Have you learnt the sidhas levels?

No.  I have had very little contact with the TMO.  I have been back for some lectures and group meditations.  But I see no reason to get further techniques.  The basic TM technique is simple and powerful.   I’m glad you don’t hate me  :) Smile for no reason! Shane-o  =]

Glad to be of help. — ~Stu

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Years ago I paid my $75.00 (CDN) and received my mantra from the TM organization. When I was doing it I found their type of mantra meditation to be extremely relaxing. Sometimes it really seemed like entering another zone. But I never stayed with it for any serious length of time. The folks I saw who were deeply into it, not all of them but many of them, just seemed wacko. I have done very little in the way of other more traditional meditation techniques but I have done a bit. Just wondering how you folks around here feel about TM and whether you could spell out some of the differences between it and yogic meditation. — Joey Goldstein http://www.joeygoldstein.com joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

Hi Joey, In my experience of trying various techniques the important principle in all is letting go and sacrifice of the ego.  It is only in the quality of the sacrifice that progress is made.  Whether this is a simple meditation where one focusses on the breath and sacrifices all other thoughts in the practice, or in Bhakti meditation where one inwardly sacrifices all attachments and lets go in God. Regards KJ

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Hi Joe, Every body who is within this YOGA act clearly knows that TM is a sharlatan bizz.The guy on their top is not a yogi. Because non of  a real yogi collects any sort of any material from the others….Even to charge its members for US DOLLARS…is only seen in SHARLATANS WAY of ACTION. These people claim levitation. But levitation is a bully…No one can be against GRAVITY… Only you have to use another force to make it zero! So maharishi is not a rishi at all…All he is doing CHEATING.. But only very stups can believe such bullies…They say that TM -Sidhi is an advanced program including yogic flying.. Are they stups? No one can fly….They think everybody stup!!! That is the point … Puma

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G’day Stu  :)   No worries.  You have my humble apologies for being so quick to judge TM.   I didn’t mention the benefitial side/effects of TM due to the fact that if you search for ‘transcendental meditation’ on Google, most of what you see *is* the benefits and I didn’t think this was balanced.  What I should of done was use that search, but also point out some of the possible criticisms, therefore being   non-biased.   Reading your post helped me realise what my problem is with TM: it seems to me like a money-making scandal.  The practise seems sound [mantras], err, no pun intended, but the other problem I have is that people ( only some ) /apparently/ have side effects from the mantras.  These being a disassociative feeling, feeling dazed afterwards, release of stored anger in a bad fashion, etc.  I don’t like that they ‘forget’ to mention the Hindu side of it – is this true? [Hindu religion side; Puja to Guru Dev] You have been initiated so could you elaborate on it’s validity? To hear it from someone who actually practises TM and not from some website whose motives I don’t actually know would be appreciated and more realistic.   Have you learnt the sidhas levels?   I’m glad you don’t hate me  :) Smile for no reason! Shane-o  =]

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(snip) Greetings Stu  :)   Seriously man, relax.  Please don’t take my opinion so seriously/personally. I’m not attacking TM, although it may have come across that way  <sigh

Honestly, A google search for TM Cult Danger? If you were not attacking TM why didn’t you post any of the studies that the National Institute of Health has sponsored showing TM’s many positive benefits?   I said at the start that I am no expert in relation to TM and have never practised it.

That is very clear.  I also mentioned: <Quote You can believe what you will.  Just trying to forewarn you in case of any possible dangers  :)  I’d hate to think that my inaction helped someone to become hurt … </Quote

This is how those sites work.  They don’t need any real facts, just opinions written up to look like facts. How do imagine getting hurt by closing one’s eyes twice a day and repeating a mantra? Why would you give these nuts support by spreading their links?   Notice that I did not say that TM is dangerous or that you will die from it, just that there /may/ be possible dangers.  The possible dangers are mentioned on trancenet.org.

No they are not mentioned on trancenet.  The are fabricated on trancenet.   How is TM Yoga? This is an /honest/ question.  Do you do asanas in TM?

Not in TM.  TM is meditation.  It is non action.    Breath settles to nearly nothing. The only asana one practices when one meditates is sitting. However, TM is practiced before or after asanas and pranayama.  Though when it is taught, the asanas and paranayama are an option.  On the weekend courses the students practice rounding, this is a cycle of asanas, pranayama and meditation. I learned asana practice long before I learned TM.  I have found the two practices complement each other.   You said "Why spread this venom?"  I already answered that in the above quote.   Plus, I did not consider it "venom", just another side to a story that may or may not be true.  You seem to consider it "venom" because you do not know any person with any problems from it, so see the articles as illogical.  I can understand that  :)

No, you purposely looked for the dangerous cult side.  Where were the 2000 some research studies on TM that can be found on Pub Med?  For example: Am J Cardiol. 2005 May 1;95(9):1060-4. Long-term effects of stress reduction on mortality in persons or = 55 years of age with systemic hypertension. Schneider RH, Alexander CN, Staggers F, Rainforth M, Salerno JW, Hartz A, Arndt S, Barnes VA, Nidich SI. Institute for Natural Medicine and Prevention, Maharishi University of Psychosocial stress contributes to high blood pressure and subsequent cardiovascular morbidity and mortality. Previous controlled studies have associated decreasing stress with the Transcendental Meditation (TM) program with lower blood pressure. The objective of the present study was to evaluate, over the long term, all-cause and cause-specific mortality in older subjects who had high blood pressure and who participated in randomized controlled trials that included the TM program and other behavioral stress-decreasing interventions. Patient data were pooled from 2 published randomized controlled trials that compared TM, other behavioral interventions, and usual therapy for high blood pressure. There were 202 subjects, including 77 whites (mean age 81 years) and 125 African-American (mean age 66 years) men and women. In these studies, average baseline blood pressure was in the prehypertensive or stage I hypertension range. Follow-up of vital status and cause of death over a maximum of 18.8 years was determined from the National Death Index. Survival analysis was used to compare intervention groups on mortality rates after adjusting for study location. Mean follow-up was 7.6 +/- 3.5 years. Compared with combined controls, the TM group showed a 23% decrease in the primary outcome of all-cause mortality after maximum follow-up (relative risk 0.77, p = 0.039). Secondary analyses showed a 30% decrease in the rate of cardiovascular mortality (relative risk 0.70, p = 0.045) and a 49% decrease in the rate of mortality due to cancer (relative risk 0.49, p = 0.16) in the TM group compared with combined controls. These results suggest that a specific stress-decreasing approach used in the prevention and control of high blood pressure, such as the TM program, may contribute to decreased mortality from all causes and cardiovascular disease in older subjects who have systemic hypertension. PMID: 15842971 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]   Look, I get the feeling from your post that you’re not impressed with me right now.  My apologies if I am wrong, seriously.  I’m not afraid to say sorry if shown that I am wrong.   Also, thanks for the other links.  I do know of the related health benefits of TM.  A lot of these benefits were mentioned when I went to the TM Centre here in Australia.   Do you still hate me?  :)

No.  I don’t hate you. The internet is full of misinformation.  The yoga community is full of cults.  Each cult seems to have its demons.  Osha was kicked  out of the US.  His cult was discovered passing viruses to a nearby town population.  He owned a bunch of Rolls Royces.  Yet his lectures and writings are still inspirational. Yogaville was run by a guru who was having secret affairs with a number of students.  Yet we have had people on this NG who have learned a great deal from Yogaville. Sure the TMO is a bit weird.  They charge too much for meditation.  I would never recommend them for that reason alone.  But they don’t deserve to racked through the coals.  The yoga is sound.  Maharishi’s writings are still good.  And I have found no better technique than TM in my wanderings. — ~Stu

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I will refrain from speaking further.

Hmm. I wonder why. — Joey Goldstein http://www.joeygoldstein.com joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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Thanks for writing Stu. As for "yogic meditation", TM is as yogic as you can get. Hmm. Most of the yoga books I’ve read have meditations where you monitor your breath or concentrate on the light from a candle or on some particular thought with an actual meaning. The only other mantra meditations I’ve read about seem to involve actually making the sound of the mantra, vocally (eg. "OM"), which again is tied up with the breath. Mantras can be chanted, or recited silently.

TM appears to be unique in that the mantra is simply a thought, and a meaningless thought at that, and does not need to be tied to any rhythmic cycle in its repetitions. Actually, there are a number of organizations that teach mantra meditation like the TM people.  As I said before it is standard traditional yoga.  I already mentioned the Buddhist site Wildmind.org, there is the Vedanta Society http://www.vedanta.org/, The Siddha Yoga foundation http://www.siddhayoga.org/index.html

Those are off the top of my head.  Also, these organizations will initiate you for free or a very small voluntary donation. Deepak Chopra’s organization teaches a TM like version of mediation for about $375. I know there is a lot of baggage attached to the TM teacher’s assignation of the mantra. As a TM practitioner ("follower"?) of many years, Stu, how do you feel about this? Back in 1974 I went to a series of lectures, initiation and followup to learn TM.  They also gave me a very quick instruction on asanas and pranayama.  I paid them $35.  They offered weekend courses and advanced techniques.  I never took them up on those.

I have read Maharishi’s book, The Science of Being and the Art of Living.  Back in 1974 it was an excellent introduction to yoga.  There are better books now.  Maharishi also wrote an interpretation of the Bhagavad-Gita.  It is an excellent clear interpretation of the text.  I suggest it to anyone. There was a guy (Eli Bay?) who was teaching a de-mystified version of TM called The Relaxation Response and he simply replaced the Hindu mantras with the word "one". Do you think that this mantra can be as effective as the ones assigned by the TM people? There has been some independent studies of this, the results showed that TM resulted in a very different physiological state then simple repeating a word.

If not, then why? It may be that the teaching of TM is highly controlled.  It followers conventions that go back hundreds of years and is time tested.  The official TM explanation is that the Mantras are imbued with the presence of "Guru Dev" through the Puja.  I do know that if I use a different mantra than the one I was given I do not have the same effects.

The TM organization is very bizarre.  Part of that is because Maharishi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – runs the organization from the top down.  He is not good at running organizations.  He is very good at teaching meditation and talking about the mechanics of consciousness.  He is one of the few Guru types out there that has not lied about his past or been caught sleeping with students. I highly suggest you go for free "checking"  you may find that is enough to get you going again.  The trick is to make the practice a habit.  You are very fortunate to have been initiated.  Use it as a base line to understand other techniques that are out there. — ~Stu I’d rather stay away from the "organization" at this point. Practicing TM is not a high priority for me right now so I don’t think I’ll be going in for any "checking" any time soon. The technique’s not really all that hard to remember anyway. Thats too bad you have taken that attitude.  I understand your problem with the TMO.  But when I have gone in for a checking even 20 years later I have found it to be a good experience.  You seem to be interested in starting to meditate again.  That is the easiest way.

If you want a change, look in the phone book and see who teaches meditation in the area.  You may find a different technique resonates with you better.  There are hundreds of meditation techniques.  There must be a reason for this.  Different strokes for different folks. You may also enjoy taking some yoga classes.  You may enjoy asanas as yet another facet in the jewel of yoga. The point here is if you are interested in yoga there are plenty of avenues to explore. — ~Stu

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Hey there Tracy  :)   Thankyou kindly for your input.  Did you know TM is also a religion ( as ruled in a court of law ).  Apparently this is hidden from trainees.  It’s Hindu based with offerings to Guru Dev at the trainees ‘puja’ (err, means initiation ceremony? ).  The mantras are also /apparently/ Hindu Diety names.   Knowing my luck it’ll be different now [Puja] and I’ll offend Stu even more  :( Smiles and Reiki to you Shane-o  =]

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What is it that you think separates a cult from a religion or from a congregation or merely from a group of people with shared values? I don’t like organized religion either.  I think the only difference between a major organized religion and a cult is that the religion has figured out at least what you really don’t do, in order to keep members. it’s still all about keeping members. Just a group of people with shared values….well, I don’t know what makes that spiritual.

Spiritual values? — Joey Goldstein http://www.joeygoldstein.com joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is it that you think separates a cult from a religion or from a congregation or merely from a group of people with shared values? I don’t like organized religion either.  I think the only difference between a major organized religion and a cult is that the religion has figured out at least what you really don’t do, in order to keep members. it’s still all about keeping members. Just a group of people with shared values….well, I don’t know what makes that spiritual. Spiritual values?

I will refrain from speaking further.

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Hey there Tracy  :) Thankyou kindly for your input.  Did you know TM is also a religion ( as ruled in a court of law ).  Apparently this is hidden from trainees.  It’s Hindu based with offerings to Guru Dev at the trainees ‘puja’ (err, means initiation ceremony? ).  The mantras are also /apparently/ Hindu Diety names. That doesn’t change that it’s a cult.

Greetings Tracy < bangs head on monitor I didn’t say it wasn’t, I’m saying that it’s a religious cult!  :) Shane-o  =]

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<snip of old stuff, because I’m jumping in in the middle of this thread just to answer a single question   How is TM Yoga? This is an /honest/ question.  Do you do asanas in TM?

They *do* asanas. I’m not into TM, but a former girlfriend of mine was. She did her asanas like an expert. She learned it all from the TM organisation, as far as I know. She also kept a yoga diet, or at least she was vegetarian, but this was her own idea, I think, not TM. She also adhered to the yamas and the niyamas. She was, on the whole, a better yogi than I, but I still felt that the TM organization had ripped her off, since she could have learned the same things much cheaper elsewhere, with the possible exception of some secret "Siddha" stuff she had sworn to be silent about. That oath of silence was often very annoying to both of us, since it hampered our discussions. S.

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What is it that you think separates a cult from a religion or from a congregation or merely from a group of people with shared values?

I don’t like organized religion either.  I think the only difference between a major organized religion and a cult is that the religion has figured out at least what you really don’t do, in order to keep members. it’s still all about keeping members. Just a group of people with shared values….well, I don’t know what makes that spiritual.

Response:

Hey there Tracy  :)  Thankyou kindly for your input.  Did you know TM is also a religion ( as ruled in a court of law ).  Apparently this is hidden from trainees.  It’s Hindu based with offerings to Guru Dev at the trainees ‘puja’ (err, means initiation ceremony? ).  The mantras are also /apparently/ Hindu Diety names.

That doesn’t change that it’s a cult.

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What is it that you think separates a cult from a religion or from a congregation or merely from a group of people with shared values? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Absolutely it is a cult.  Just get some books on traditional meditation. G’day Tracy  :)  Could you please explain why you have come to that conclusion? I honestly want to know.  I’ve read a lot of good about it and a lot of bad ( sorry Stu ). Opinions are great and I’d like yours  :) I’ve read enough testimonials from survivors of that cult, on the web. When cults say:  Oh, don’t believe it,  that’s just sour grapes, well. I would only believe *that*  if I know the person saying it personally, and trust their opinion, and that person knows the one who criticizes the cult personally, and knows for a fact that the person has an ulterior motive. It happens all too often –  what else could a cult do,   to minimize the bad effect of the truth getting out?  Dismiss it out of hand. exactly. try rickross.com – that is one place where they have some info about TM as a cult: http://www.rickross.com/groups/tm.html tracy

– Joey Goldstein http://www.joeygoldstein.com joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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Absolutely it is a cult.  Just get some books on traditional meditation.  

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Absolutely it is a cult.  Just get some books on traditional meditation.  

G’day Tracy  :)   Could you please explain why you have come to that conclusion? I honestly want to know.  I’ve read a lot of good about it and a lot of bad ( sorry Stu ). Opinions are great and I’d like yours  :) Smile for no reason! Go on, do it  :) Shane-o  =]

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Absolutely it is a cult.  Just get some books on traditional meditation.   G’day Tracy  :)  Could you please explain why you have come to that conclusion? I honestly want to know.  I’ve read a lot of good about it and a lot of bad ( sorry Stu ). Opinions are great and I’d like yours  :)

I’ve read enough testimonials from survivors of that cult, on the web. When cults say:  Oh, don’t believe it,  that’s just sour grapes, well. I would only believe *that*  if I know the person saying it personally, and trust their opinion, and that person knows the one who criticizes the cult personally, and knows for a fact that the person has an ulterior motive.   It happens all too often –  what else could a cult do,   to minimize the bad effect of the truth getting out?  Dismiss it out of hand. exactly. try rickross.com – that is one place where they have some info about TM as a cult: http://www.rickross.com/groups/tm.html tracy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Years ago I paid my $75.00 (CDN) and received my mantra from the TM organization. When I was doing it I found their type of mantra meditation to be extremely relaxing. Sometimes it really seemed like entering another zone. But I never stayed with it for any serious length of time. The folks I saw who were deeply into it, not all of them but many of them, just seemed wacko. I have done very little in the way of other more traditional meditation techniques but I have done a bit. Just wondering how you folks around here feel about TM and whether you could spell out some of the differences between it and yogic meditation. Hey there Joey  :)   TM, eh? Hmmmm …  be careful is all I can say.  From what I’ve read, it’s considered a cult, charges excessive amounts of money for mantras and can affect the brain when you get into the higher sidhas levels ( think that’s what it is called ).  They also believe they can ‘fly’ in the higher levels.   I’m no expert and have never practised TM, although I was going to learn it about ten years ago and they wanted $500 here in Australia for the first level(s) ( that was a damn lot back then ).  This is merely *my* opinion and not fact.  Have a look through Google with:     http://tinyurl.com/dgetk Why did you feel a need to hide your search as TM Cult Danger? How about a search for "TM peaceful form of yoga".  Or do a pubmed search on TM.  You will find thousands of research articles that have proven TM to have fantastic health benefits. http://www.freep.com/news/education/tm5_20030605.htm http://www.rxtm.co.nz/cardiovascular_disease/congestive_heart_failure… http://www.irishhealth.com/?level=4&id=7433 http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/transcende… Over the last 40 years there have been many independent studies of the effects of TM.  I have not seen one that showed any danger. Look carefully at who is putting up these anti-TM sites.  Most are Christian groups.  More often then not they are disgruntled student who did not get what they were looking for out of the organization. and you’ll see what I mean; highlights being:     http://trancenet.org/research/index.shtml <— *Important!*     http://www.trancenet.org/     http://www.suggestibility.org/   You can believe what you will.  Just trying to forewarn you in case of any possible dangers  :)  I’d hate to think that my inaction helped someone to become hurt … What dangers are those?  I have known thousands of people who have practiced TM.  I have never known anyone to be hurt by closing there eyes and thinking a mantra.  Oh, doing Yoga seems a hell of a lot safer than TM. TM is yoga.  It is a technique clearly described by Patanjali in the Yoga Sutras. Smile for no reason! Shane-o  =] Why do you want to spread this venom?

Greetings Stu  :)   Seriously man, relax.  Please don’t take my opinion so seriously/personally. I’m not attacking TM, although it may have come across that way  <sigh   I said at the start that I am no expert in relation to TM and have never practised it.  I also mentioned: <Quote You can believe what you will.  Just trying to forewarn you in case of any possible dangers  :)  I’d hate to think that my inaction helped someone to become hurt … </Quote   Notice that I did not say that TM is dangerous or that you will die from it, just that there /may/ be possible dangers.  The possible dangers are mentioned on trancenet.org.   How is TM Yoga? This is an /honest/ question.  Do you do asanas in TM?   You said "Why spread this venom?"  I already answered that in the above quote.   Plus, I did not consider it "venom", just another side to a story that may or may not be true.  You seem to consider it "venom" because you do not know any person with any problems from it, so see the articles as illogical.  I can understand that  :)   Look, I get the feeling from your post that you’re not impressed with me right now.  My apologies if I am wrong, seriously.  I’m not afraid to say sorry if shown that I am wrong.   Also, thanks for the other links.  I do know of the related health benefits of TM.  A lot of these benefits were mentioned when I went to the TM Centre here in Australia.   Do you still hate me?  :) Smile for no reason Shane-o  =]

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Thanks for writing Stu. As for "yogic meditation", TM is as yogic as you can get.  

Hmm. Most of the yoga books I’ve read have meditations where you monitor your breath or concentrate on the light from a candle or on some particular thought with an actual meaning. The only other mantra meditations I’ve read about seem to involve actually making the sound of the mantra, vocally (eg. "OM"), which again is tied up with the breath. TM appears to be unique in that the mantra is simply a thought, and a meaningless thought at that, and does not need to be tied to any rhythmic cycle in its repetitions. I know there is a lot of baggage attached to the TM teacher’s assignation of the mantra. As a TM practitioner ("follower"?) of many years, Stu, how do you feel about this? There was a guy (Eli Bay?) who was teaching a de-mystified version of TM called The Relaxation Response and he simply replaced the Hindu mantras with the word "one". Do you think that this mantra can be as effective as the ones assigned by the TM people? If not, then why? The TM organization is very bizarre.  Part of that is because Maharishi runs the organization from the top down.  He is not good at running organizations.  He is very good at teaching meditation and talking about the mechanics of consciousness.  He is one of the few Guru types out there that has not lied about his past or been caught sleeping with students. I highly suggest you go for free "checking"  you may find that is enough to get you going again.  The trick is to make the practice a habit.  You are very fortunate to have been initiated.  Use it as a base line to understand other techniques that are out there. — ~Stu

I’d rather stay away from the "organization" at this point. Practicing TM is not a high priority for me right now so I don’t think I’ll be going in for any "checking" any time soon. The technique’s not really all that hard to remember anyway. — Joey Goldstein http://www.joeygoldstein.com joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Years ago I paid my $75.00 (CDN) and received my mantra from the TM organization. When I was doing it I found their type of mantra meditation to be extremely relaxing. Sometimes it really seemed like entering another zone. But I never stayed with it for any serious length of time. The folks I saw who were deeply into it, not all of them but many of them, just seemed wacko. I have done very little in the way of other more traditional meditation techniques but I have done a bit. Just wondering how you folks around here feel about TM and whether you could spell out some of the differences between it and yogic meditation. Hey there Joey  :)   TM, eh? Hmmmm …  be careful is all I can say.  From what I’ve read, it’s considered a cult, charges excessive amounts of money for mantras and can affect the brain when you get into the higher sidhas levels ( think that’s what it is called ).  They also believe they can ‘fly’ in the higher levels.   I’m no expert and have never practised TM, although I was going to learn it about ten years ago and they wanted $500 here in Australia for the first level(s) ( that was a damn lot back then ).  This is merely *my* opinion and not fact.  Have a look through Google with:     http://tinyurl.com/dgetk

Why did you feel a need to hide your search as TM Cult Danger? How about a search for "TM peaceful form of yoga".  Or do a pubmed search on TM.  You will find thousands of research articles that have proven TM to have fantastic health benefits. http://www.freep.com/news/education/tm5_20030605.htm http://www.rxtm.co.nz/cardiovascular_disease/congestive_heart_failure… http://www.irishhealth.com/?level=4&id=7433 http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/transcende… Over the last 40 years there have been many independent studies of the effects of TM.  I have not seen one that showed any danger. Look carefully at who is putting up these anti-TM sites.  Most are Christian groups.  More often then not they are disgruntled student who did not get what they were looking for out of the organization. and you’ll see what I mean; highlights being:     http://trancenet.org/research/index.shtml <— *Important!*     http://www.trancenet.org/     http://www.suggestibility.org/   You can believe what you will.  Just trying to forewarn you in case of any possible dangers  :)  I’d hate to think that my inaction helped someone to become hurt … What dangers are those?  I have known thousands of people who have practiced TM.  I have never known anyone to be hurt by closing there eyes and thinking a mantra.

  Oh, doing Yoga seems a hell of a lot safer than TM. TM is yoga.  It is a technique clearly described by Patanjali in the Yoga Sutras.

Smile for no reason! Shane-o  =] Why do you want to spread this venom?

– ~Stu

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Years ago I paid my $75.00 (CDN) and received my mantra from the TM organization. When I was doing it I found their type of mantra meditation to be extremely relaxing. Sometimes it really seemed like entering another zone. But I never stayed with it for any serious length of time. The folks I saw who were deeply into it, not all of them but many of them, just seemed wacko. I have done very little in the way of other more traditional meditation techniques but I have done a bit.

TM is very traditional meditation. Just wondering how you folks around here feel about TM and whether you could spell out some of the differences between it and yogic meditation.

I have been practicing TM for about 30 years.   Its been a very good run.  The organization is nutty, but the basic technique is good.  It truly comes from a traditional Indian system.  The way it is taught is highly monitored to make sure the subtle practice is passed on correctly. You may want to contact someone in your area and get "checked".  It is free, and will get you on back on your practice.   There is an 800 number at TM.org As for "yogic meditation", TM is as yogic as you can get.  It is meditation as taught in the Sankara tradition.  A system that has been passed on from master to student for several millennia.  It is a mantra form of meditation.  There are other forms of meditation.  Most of them have Buddhist roots.  There is a very good web site that will give you a taste of other techniques, http://www.wildmind.org/  It is run by a Buddhist monk.  He is a little down on TM. Another teacher of the Sankara tradition is Swami Muktananda.  He has a cult (used in the good way) in the US.  One of his followers is Sally Kempton.  She has a terrific book on meditation called "The Heart of Meditation".  She travels around and gives workshops.  I went to one – it was excellent.  http://www.sallykempton.com  Although she has no direct relation with the TM org, she has no problem with it.  We got along very well at the workshop. Be careful about the Web sites on TM.  They are filled with a lot of misinformation.  Usually they are run be people with hidden agendas.   Some are fundamentalist Christians who think TM and yoga in general is evil.  Others are people who came into the organization looking for something the organization didn’t provide.  They have an axe to grind. The TM organization is very bizarre.  Part of that is because Maharishi runs the organization from the top down.  He is not good at running organizations.  He is very good at teaching meditation and talking about the mechanics of consciousness.  He is one of the few Guru types out there that has not lied about his past or been caught sleeping with students. I highly suggest you go for free "checking"  you may find that is enough to get you going again.  The trick is to make the practice a habit.  You are very fortunate to have been initiated.  Use it as a base line to understand other techniques that are out there. — ~Stu

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Years ago I paid my $75.00 (CDN) and received my mantra from the TM organization. When I was doing it I found their type of mantra meditation to be extremely relaxing. Sometimes it really seemed like entering another zone. But I never stayed with it for any serious length of time. The folks I saw who were deeply into it, not all of them but many of them, just seemed wacko. I have done very little in the way of other more traditional meditation techniques but I have done a bit. Just wondering how you folks around here feel about TM and whether you could spell out some of the differences between it and yogic meditation.

Hey there Joey  :)   TM, eh? Hmmmm …  be careful is all I can say.  From what I’ve read, it’s considered a cult, charges excessive amounts of money for mantras and can affect the brain when you get into the higher sidhas levels ( think that’s what it is called ).  They also believe they can ‘fly’ in the higher levels.   I’m no expert and have never practised TM, although I was going to learn it about ten years ago and they wanted $500 here in Australia for the first level(s) ( that was a damn lot back then ).  This is merely *my* opinion and not fact.  Have a look through Google with:     http://tinyurl.com/dgetk and you’ll see what I mean; highlights being:     http://trancenet.org/research/index.shtml <— *Important!*     http://www.trancenet.org/     http://www.suggestibility.org/   You can believe what you will.  Just trying to forewarn you in case of any possible dangers  :)  I’d hate to think that my inaction helped someone to become hurt …   Oh, doing Yoga seems a hell of a lot safer than TM. Smile for no reason! Shane-o  =]

Response:

Years ago I paid my $75.00 (CDN) and received my mantra from the TM organization. When I was doing it I found their type of mantra meditation to be extremely relaxing. Sometimes it really seemed like entering another zone. But I never stayed with it for any serious length of time. The folks I saw who were deeply into it, not all of them but many of them, just seemed wacko. I have done very little in the way of other more traditional meditation techniques but I have done a bit. Just wondering how you folks around here feel about TM and whether you could spell out some of the differences between it and yogic meditation. — Joey Goldstein http://www.joeygoldstein.com joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

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Greetings Ian  :) Its a complicated one. Sure yoga cannot be sold, however those who teach do need to eat etc.

  Indeed.  In my haste to express myself I overlooked that possibility and looked mainly how people overcharge for spiritual things.  My apologies if I offended you.  I was also thinking from the perspective of people who offer healing, particulary Reiki.  There are three levels to this particular style of Reiki that I practise and one place here in Australia charges $434.50, $495, and $2200 respectively! And that’s for a total of six days of teaching with course texts.  When I was taught my three levels it cost $80 for *all three levels* over three days plus course texts.  A few years ago, Barbara McGregor charged $10000 for the third level *alone*!!! This is the differentiation that saddens me … Its not a new thing, there have always been teachers with motives less than perfect.

  Very true. Having set up and run a yoga school  ( http://mandala.ashtanga.org ) I was less than impressed by the number of people who came for teaching certificates compared with the numbers who came to learn yoga.

  Nice and simplistic site!  :)  I love that it’s W3C approved as I use Firefox and the site displays perfectly.   I also am /very/ impressed by the other things offered, these being: Cultural Programs Ayurveda Healing Organic Farm So it goes. Ian

Smile for no reason Shane-o  =]

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< Gently Snipped

Its a complicated one. Sure yoga cannot be sold, however those who teach do need to eat etc. Its not a new thing, there have always been teachers with motives less than perfect. Having set up and run a yoga school  ( http://mandala.ashtanga.org ) I was less than impressed by the number of people who came for teaching certificates compared with the numbers who came to learn yoga. So it goes. Ian — homepage http://narian.org.uk —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

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Greetings Bothi

< Gently Snipped If money is involved that means there is a false action there. Because in YOGA there is APARIGRAHA that means no money shall be involved…And if they state YOGA and meditation then be careful,as meditation is within the yoga so that means your teacher doesn ot know what yoga is!!! :rolleyes:

This is what happens when things become Westernised …  :(  Sad but true. Everyone’s in it for the money these days.  If only people did stuff from the heart instead of from the wallet, eh? It’s like when people charge for healing; isn’t that going against the very reason you’re helping in the first place? ( selflessness )  <Sarcasm Gotta love the Western culture! </Sarcasm These are from PATANJALI SUTRAS… So be aware of false yoga teachers and sharlatans!!!!  ;) Lets be mindful,*

*I second that statement  :) Smile for no reason Shane-o  =]

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Hi everyone, In these days,false yoga schools, false yoga teachers are almost everywhere… YOGA can be read from the sutras of Great Sage PATANJALI… Any freak,any atletics, or jimnastics is not yoga, only doing asanas is not yoga either…These are easily can be seen from PATANJALI. There are 8 steps in yoga, YAMA-NIYAMA-ASANA-PRANAYAMA-PRATYAHARA-DHYANA-DHARANA-SAMADHI All these steps have to be done when an act to be called as YOGA… These days MANTRA SELLERS, YOGA CERTIFICATE ISSUERS, HEALERS, CHEATHERS,trying like yoga instructors!!!!!!!THEY ARE ALL HUMAN EATERS!! Even some of us think that these cheaters are holy people..In fact non of the holy persons sells anything!!!!! Please be aware of these type of false yoga schools and false yoga teachers… If money is involved that means there is a false action there. Because in YOGA there is APARIGRAHA that means no money shall be involved…And if they state YOGA and meditation then be careful,as meditation is within the yoga so that means your teacher doesn ot know what yoga is!!! :rolleyes: These are from PATANJALI SUTRAS… So be aware of false yoga teachers and sharlatans!!!!  ;) Lets be mindful, — Bothi This message originated from http://www.yoga-meditation.org

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I am happy to hear that you have had a positive response to the yoga classes you have been attending. I don’t have experience taking a Bikram class, but know a bit about the style. Being an easily overheated type, I hesitate to practice asana in a heated room and stick to a more cooling practice for myself. Am curious to hear if you have tried other yoga approaches before embarking on the Bikram class? Your openness to experiencing your inner landscape during the practice of asana is a wonderful doorway. Wishing you much success as you explore.

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I began taking a Bikram yoga class about a month ago. I absolutely love what it has done for my mind and body. I thought I’d take the time to share a bit about the road I began when I started doing yoga. About 2 months ago I was extremely depressed and suicidal. I decided that I needed to made some positive changes to my life. I have a friend who takes bikram yoga and loves it, so with her encouragement, I’ve started going. Not only am I feeling physically better, but I am able to better focus now. A couple of the postures (the backwards bending ones) have been surprisingly helpful for my emotions as well… this was a shock to me when I first did them…. and I wasn’t expecting the emotional reaction I had to the postures the first few times I did them. I think somehow those poses are helping bring to the surface some of the things that were precursors to my suicidal state a couple months ago. So with the help of meds, my therapist, and yoga…. I’m working twoard healing…. from the inside out. In addition to this, I have lost 6 pounds over the past month… a *real* accomplishment for me… I had to take the last week off of class due to being very sick with stomach problems… and too weak to make it thru the class without passing out… but I’m getting better now, and am planning on returning to class tonight… =)

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Hello, I am most interested in the spiritual aspect of yoga. Is Hatha yoga considered to be one of the more spiritual types of yoga. If not, which type or types are? Thank you.

Howdy Arthur! There are basically 4 different disciplines in yoga: Hatha, Raja, Bhakti and Jnana (Gyana.) I would suggest that you investigate each one in order to decide for yourself which one (or combination) best suits YOUR DEFINITION of "spirituality." — Dave