Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dont know if any of you on this board have ever experienced this.. but has anyone close to you like your family or friends’ ever labelled you as not being strong enough to handle situations and crumbling under pressure due to anxiety? It makes me feel horrible and weak when I;m told by my mother, out of all people that I need to toughen up. I try to explain to her what I have to deal with on a constant basis, but I guess the scars cant be seen since theyre mostly internal and in the mind. What are the best techniques to handle stressful situations on top of having anxiety? Ive tried deep breathing which helps up to a point.. but I really want to be cured of anxiety completely. Is it possible? Has anyone achieved this?

Fred, you are not weak.  You have an illness.  I hate when people think I am weak.  I am a pretty strong person.  The anxiety does get to me at times.  I fight my way through it.  People who say you are weak just do not understand this devil we are living with.  Don’t let it bother you.  If they know no better, how can they understand?  Just know in your heart that you are not alone and you are so much stronger than you think.  I tell myself that everyday. Good luck to you, Vicki

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dont know if any of you on this board have ever experienced this.. but has anyone close to you like your family or friends’ ever labelled you as not being strong enough to handle situations and crumbling under pressure due to anxiety? It makes me feel horrible and weak when I;m told by my mother, out of all people that I need to toughen up. I try to explain to her what I have to deal with on a constant basis, but I guess the scars cant be seen since theyre mostly internal and in the mind. What are the best techniques to handle stressful situations on top of having anxiety? Ive tried deep breathing which helps up to a point.. but I really want to be cured of anxiety completely. Is it possible? Has anyone achieved this?

You really only have 2 choices. Stay in the situation and deal with it or get out of the situation. You cannot change other people, only yourself and the way you deal with things. I’ve my share of "snap out of it" "What the hell is wrong with you" etc. I laugh at those statements now cause in reality unless someone has this problem they cannot understand it. Family or not learn to not react to such negativity, if you cannot then get out of the situation. It’s that simple. There is no cure for anxiety, panic, depression, etc. If there was we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Your best goal is to manage it without it affecting your daily life very much. Accept that fact. That alone helps. The more you chase a cure, the longer anxiety will be present and you’ll become that person instead of a person enjoying life. Kevin..

Response:

I dont know if any of you on this board have ever experienced this..

 but has anyone close to you like your family or friends’ ever labelled you as not being strong enough to handle situations and crumbling under pressure due to anxiety? It makes me feel horrible and weak when I;m told by my mother, out of all people that I need to toughen up. I try to explain to her what I have to deal with on a constant basis, but I guess the scars cant be seen since theyre mostly internal and in the mind.

Yes , if people here are honest and they can stop criticizing each other,I would assume most have especially if its kept you from doing things everyone else has done. My mom has too but more incredible she herself spent years in institutions. I guess this is their last ditch attempt to get us to change . It can’t make them feel too good thinking there is something wrong , its pretty sad sometimes. Society in reality don’t understand but what choices you got? No one sane would choose anxiety or panic when it reaches this proportion . What are the best techniques to handle stressful situations on top of having anxiety? Ive tried deep breathing which helps up to a point.. but I really want to be cured of anxiety completely. Is it possible? Has anyone achieved this?

I doubt it . I remember when younger how it started out. It usually doesn’t get much better then a certain point  and sometimes gets worse.It also directly influences your physical health. or at least it could. Realize everyone has something though. Unfortunately The stigma of mental problems is why most people keep their problems to themselves even here at times. What to do? We go over the options every week so it seems. : meds, breathing, yoga, foods, exercise, meds again, cigarettes ( not really good) . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Fred, a couple thoughts come to mind: 1)  Please write back, and give a concrete example of where you have actually been unable to handle a situation and have crumbled under pressure… 2)  It is not possible or desirable to be "cured of anxiety completely". Anxiety is an emotion that one must be capable of summoning.  EG:  If your anxiety level is so low that you don’t pay (or even open) bills that come, or don’t bother to step out of the way of an oncoming car, or leave a burning building – then you don’t have enough anxiety to survive.  The problem comes when anxiety levels are higher than one’s coping skills can handle.  The answer lies in improving our coping skills, or more broadly, to increase our resources for coping.  This may include new thought processes learned, medications, developing the strength to look at criticism from others from an oblique angle. If your anxiety level IS so high that you can’t cope with everyday life, it’s time to look at the reasons.  It may be a diagnosable problem, it may be "thinking errors" (see David Burns’ book "Feeling Good").  It might be any number of things, however you are the only person who can really take charge of it.  You do not really HAVE to deal with anything on a constant basis, and if you believe that you do, I’d start right there. I hope you’ll start feeling better soon Gary ps:  When my friends start labeling me – they reveal themselves as being people I thought were my friends, and I discontinue them, much like an ineffective medicine. GF

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I dont know if any of you on this board have ever experienced this.. but has anyone close to you like your family or friends’ ever labelled you as not being strong enough to handle situations and crumbling under pressure due to anxiety? It makes me feel horrible and weak when I;m told by my mother, out of all people that I need to toughen up. I try to explain to her what I have to deal with on a constant basis, but I guess the scars cant be seen since theyre mostly internal and in the mind. What are the best techniques to handle stressful situations on top of having anxiety? Ive tried deep breathing which helps up to a point.. but I really want to be cured of anxiety completely. Is it possible? Has anyone achieved this?

Response:

Fred, a couple thoughts come to mind: 1)  Please write back, and give a concrete example of where you have actually been unable to handle a situation and have crumbled under pressure… 2)  It is not possible or desirable to be "cured of anxiety completely". Anxiety is an emotion that one must be capable of summoning.  EG:  If your anxiety level is so low that you don’t pay (or even open) bills that come, or don’t bother to step out of the way of an oncoming car, or leave a burning building – then you don’t have enough anxiety to survive.

Wooo, where did this thought come from? Especially the bill paying? This is about the weirdest thing I ever heard here, knowing you usually sound rational. Its interesting to suggest though, that one doesn’t have enough anxiety if they can’t  leave a burning building in time or step out of the way of a oncoming car,although debateable, thats one I never heard proven before either .There are many many times I find I am slow at realizing things, where other people are more aware and so it depends on what someone is concentrating on. If the primal emotive response is survival or fight and flight then your analogy might make some sense. I think people with anxiety often have this primal fight or flight issue ongoing , more then others.. I wonder if your saying its better to stay and rationalize more then its better to fight (react fast) or flee. .So one can conclude anxiety gets in the way of good thought flow just as often as we might be more sensitive to outside stimulous and thus react faster.I just wonder how you know when you would react faster or slower. I am not saying your wrong or right though But the bill paying? I have anxiety and seldom bother paying bills from some past companies like wireless or where you can’t reach customer service. I don’t think this is about not enough anxiety. I get anxious for not paying them but I never correlated the connection.with the amount of anxiety.  

Response:

What are the best techniques to handle stressful situations on top of having anxiety? Ive tried deep breathing which helps up to a point.. but I really want to be cured of anxiety completely. Is it possible? Has anyone achieved this?

This is an easy one. I stay clear from ppl who cause me any more – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Let me break this down a little more simply, since that seem indicated here. Perhaps we could speak of anxiety on a continuum – lets go with a one to ten scale.  A person with an anxiety level of one has taken 10 times the recommended amount of their tranquilizer du jour, they are kicked back on the couch with a beer cracked, and they just really don’t give a damn about anything…  The phone rings, and they stare blankly at it, etc.. Got the picture? Now, a person with an anxiety level of 10, is having a panic attack, feels as though they are choking, can’t breathe, wonders if they are dying, possibly wishes that they would die rather than go on with this feeling….I don’t think I need to enumerate ALL the symptoms of a panic attack in this particular forum… My point to this person, Steve, was that there IS an anxiety level which is, in fact, too low – it’s an emotion that one MUST be capable of summoning. Thus, his stated goal of "being cured of anxiety completely" was not a realistic one, strictly from THAT standpoint.  If your anxiety level is TOO LOW, you will not step out of the way of a moving truck, because you didn’t summon/couldn’t summon enough anxiety to worry that it might HIT YOU !!! I will even provide a concrete and actual example from my own experience, to assist you in seeing this as less "weird" and possibly even "rational".  (?) In the city I live in, a train passes through town, much to the annoyance of automobile drivers and pedestrians who both have to wait for the train in order to continue on their destinations.  On two separate occasions, drug addict pedestrians, high on crack and opiates and probably a whole cornucopia of other agents, decided that while the train temporarily stopped would be a good time to crawl under the train, so they would not have to wait so long to keep walking down the street (which was blocked by the train).  This proved to be a bad decision– the train started moving while they were under it in both cases.  One woman had her torso ripped in half, and was killed, and the other lost both her legs.  These two people DEFINITELY had anxiety levels that were FAR TOO LOW. Does this seem more rational now Steve? I think your self-assessment in your post that "there are many many times I find I am slow at realizing things, where other people are more aware…" is quite possibly more accurate than you realize.  Rather than firing some post back which suggests (a) that I’m not always rational ("knowing you USUALLY sound rational") and (b) that it’s the weirdest thing you’ve ever heard here (now THAT’s a pretty tall order, the weirdest thing on THIS group??? c’mon Steve) – perhaps you could consider, and digest first.  So we’re back to choices on how to communicate, I think we had this conversation already. Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fred, a couple thoughts come to mind: 1)  Please write back, and give a concrete example of where you have actually been unable to handle a situation and have crumbled under pressure… 2)  It is not possible or desirable to be "cured of anxiety completely". Anxiety is an emotion that one must be capable of summoning.  EG:  If your anxiety level is so low that you don’t pay (or even open) bills that come, or don’t bother to step out of the way of an oncoming car, or leave a burning building – then you don’t have enough anxiety to survive. Wooo, where did this thought come from? Especially the bill paying? This is about the weirdest thing I ever heard here, knowing you usually sound rational. Its interesting to suggest though, that one doesn’t have enough anxiety if they can’t  leave a burning building in time or step out of the way of a oncoming car,although debateable, thats one I never heard proven before either .There are many many times I find I am slow at realizing things, where other people are more aware and so it depends on what someone is concentrating on. If the primal emotive response is survival or fight and flight then your analogy might make some sense. I think people with anxiety often have this primal fight or flight issue ongoing , more then others.. I wonder if your saying its better to stay and rationalize more then its better to fight (react fast) or flee. .So one can conclude anxiety gets in the way of good thought flow just as often as we might be more sensitive to outside stimulous and thus react faster.I just wonder how you know when you would react faster or slower. I am not saying your wrong or right though But the bill paying? I have anxiety and seldom bother paying bills from some past companies like wireless or where you can’t reach customer service. I don’t think this is about not enough anxiety. I get anxious for not paying them but I never correlated the connection.with the amount of anxiety.

Response:

Fred, you are not weak.  You have an illness.  I hate when people think I am weak.  I am a pretty strong person.  The anxiety does get to me at times. I fight my way through it.  People who say you are weak just do not understand This is right. Remember that the tough don’t get going, – untill the going gets tough. Most anxiety folk do better under threatning situations than others do. – K

HUH?  Where is this written?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me break this down a little more simply, since that seem indicated here. Perhaps we could speak of anxiety on a continuum – lets go with a one to ten scale.  A person with an anxiety level of one has taken 10 times the recommended amount of their tranquilizer du jour, they are kicked back on the couch with a beer cracked, and they just really don’t give a damn about anything…  The phone rings, and they stare blankly at it, etc.. Got the picture? Now, a person with an anxiety level of 10, is having a panic attack, feels as though they are choking, can’t breathe, wonders if they are dying, possibly wishes that they would die rather than go on with this feeling….I don’t think I need to enumerate ALL the symptoms of a panic attack in this particular forum… My point to this person, Steve, was that there IS an anxiety level which is, in fact, too low – it’s an emotion that one MUST be capable of summoning. Thus, his stated goal of "being cured of anxiety completely" was not a realistic one, strictly from THAT standpoint.  If your anxiety level is TOO LOW, you will not step out of the way of a moving truck, because you didn’t summon/couldn’t summon enough anxiety to worry that it might HIT YOU !!!

So this ultimately means low anxiety , equals more fire victims and more people getting hit by cars???. Maybe insurance companies should just ask people to take anxiety level tests and thus they then become more successful insurance agents? . So after you are diagnosed with anxiety maybe we should be given discounts cause after all ,if we can dodge cars better crossing the street maybe we can dodge cars better driving. . So is everything we do based more on our anxiety levels then our rationale, intelligence, instinct or alert levels ( how tired we are).?  Gary while interesting theory , I never heard of it before – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will even provide a concrete and actual example from my own experience, to assist you in seeing this as less "weird" and possibly even "rational". (?) In the city I live in, a train passes through town, much to the annoyance of automobile drivers and pedestrians who both have to wait for the train in order to continue on their destinations.  On two separate occasions, drug addict pedestrians, high on crack and opiates and probably a whole cornucopia of other agents, decided that while the train temporarily stopped would be a good time to crawl under the train, so they would not have to wait so long to keep walking down the street (which was blocked by the train).  This proved to be a bad decision– the train started moving while they were under it in both cases.  One woman had her torso ripped in half, and was killed, and the other lost both her legs.  These two people DEFINITELY had anxiety levels that were FAR TOO LOW.

or they were far too high to fully appreciate their awareness state . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does this seem more rational now Steve? I think your self-assessment in your post that "there are many many times I find I am slow at realizing things, where other people are more aware…" is quite possibly more accurate than you realize.  Rather than firing some post back which suggests (a) that I’m not always rational ("knowing you USUALLY sound rational") and (b) that it’s the weirdest thing you’ve ever heard here (now THAT’s a pretty tall order, the weirdest thing on THIS group??? c’mon Steve) – perhaps you could consider, and digest first.  So we’re back to choices on how to communicate, I think we had this conversation already. Gary .I believe if your primarily acting out based on too high anxiety levels ,

your prone to not be happy, REACTIVE, sometime going into  avoidance states , sometimes manic states and sometimes  overly aggressive and maybe prone to hypertension and stress related illness.. In addition  you didn’t mention in your examples what affect pills or alcohol had for people with high anxiety levels when confronted with fire or cars in street traffic. I am not sure what you were trying to say though.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fred, a couple thoughts come to mind: 1)  Please write back, and give a concrete example of where you have actually been unable to handle a situation and have crumbled under pressure… 2)  It is not possible or desirable to be "cured of anxiety completely". Anxiety is an emotion that one must be capable of summoning.  EG:  If your anxiety level is so low that you don’t pay (or even open) bills that come, or don’t bother to step out of the way of an oncoming car, or leave a burning building – then you don’t have enough anxiety to survive. Wooo, where did this thought come from? Especially the bill paying? This is about the weirdest thing I ever heard here, knowing you usually sound rational. Its interesting to suggest though, that one doesn’t have enough anxiety if they can’t  leave a burning building in time or step out of the way of a oncoming car,although debateable, thats one I never heard proven before either .There are many many times I find I am slow at realizing things, where other people are more aware and so it depends on what someone is concentrating on. If the primal emotive response is survival or fight and flight then your analogy might make some sense. I think people with anxiety often have this primal fight or flight issue ongoing , more then others.. I wonder if your saying its better to stay and rationalize more then its better to fight (react fast) or flee. .So one can conclude anxiety gets in the way of good thought flow just as often as we might be more sensitive to outside stimulous and thus react faster.I just wonder how you know when you would react faster or slower. I am not saying your wrong or right though But the bill paying? I have anxiety and seldom bother paying bills from some past companies like wireless or where you can’t reach customer service. I don’t think this is about not enough anxiety. I get anxious for not paying them but I never correlated the connection.with the amount of anxiety.

Response:

AAGGHH!  I give up Steve.  It’s really a simple thing, but you start reading all sorts of things into it.  Bottom line, an anxiety level of zero is not desirable, not only because of trains which might run you over, but because the brain is not capable of learning new information in that state.  There is what is called an "optimal anxiety level", which could turn into a very spirited debate, as to what number on the 1 to 10 continuum it is… Obviously it is not 10, and it is not Zero either.  That was all I was saying, to a man who was wanting to have a level of zero, the original poster.  It’s not my theory, it’s well-discussed in books about emotions and learning, behavior, psychology…. This is my last post on it, that is certain. I don’t have any idea where this "acting out" thing comes from…  I find trading posts with you to be tedious – I will say that, you seem determined that you will be right and that I will be wrong.  If that makes you feel good, then by all means, keep doing it, but your psych diagnoses for me are actually pretty funny…….avoidance states, manic, etc… Perhaps you’d like to "enlighten" me on all that, however as I said, this is my last post to this. Good day Sir – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me break this down a little more simply, since that seem indicated here. Perhaps we could speak of anxiety on a continuum – lets go with a one to ten scale.  A person with an anxiety level of one has taken 10 times the recommended amount of their tranquilizer du jour, they are kicked back on the couch with a beer cracked, and they just really don’t give a damn about anything…  The phone rings, and they stare blankly at it, etc.. Got the picture? Now, a person with an anxiety level of 10, is having a panic attack, feels as though they are choking, can’t breathe, wonders if they are dying, possibly wishes that they would die rather than go on with this feeling….I don’t think I need to enumerate ALL the symptoms of a panic attack in this particular forum… My point to this person, Steve, was that there IS an anxiety level which is, in fact, too low – it’s an emotion that one MUST be capable of summoning. Thus, his stated goal of "being cured of anxiety completely" was not a realistic one, strictly from THAT standpoint.  If your anxiety level is TOO LOW, you will not step out of the way of a moving truck, because you didn’t summon/couldn’t summon enough anxiety to worry that it might HIT YOU !!! So this ultimately means low anxiety , equals more fire victims and more people getting hit by cars???. Maybe insurance companies should just ask people to take anxiety level tests and thus they then become more successful insurance agents? . So after you are diagnosed with anxiety maybe we should be given discounts cause after all ,if we can dodge cars better crossing the street maybe we can dodge cars better driving. . So is everything we do based more on our anxiety levels then our rationale, intelligence, instinct or alert levels ( how tired we are).? Gary while interesting theory , I never heard of it before I will even provide a concrete and actual example from my own experience, to assist you in seeing this as less "weird" and possibly even "rational". (?) In the city I live in, a train passes through town, much to the annoyance of automobile drivers and pedestrians who both have to wait for the train in order to continue on their destinations.  On two separate occasions, drug addict pedestrians, high on crack and opiates and probably a whole cornucopia of other agents, decided that while the train temporarily stopped would be a good time to crawl under the train, so they would not have to wait so long to keep walking down the street (which was blocked by the train).  This proved to be a bad decision– the train started moving while they were under it in both cases.  One woman had her torso ripped in half, and was killed, and the other lost both her legs.  These two people DEFINITELY had anxiety levels that were FAR TOO LOW. or they were far too high to fully appreciate their awareness state . Does this seem more rational now Steve? I think your self-assessment in your post that "there are many many times I find I am slow at realizing things, where other people are more aware…" is quite possibly more accurate than you realize.  Rather than firing some post back which suggests (a) that I’m not always rational ("knowing you USUALLY sound rational") and (b) that it’s the weirdest thing you’ve ever heard here (now THAT’s a pretty tall order, the weirdest thing on THIS group??? c’mon Steve) – perhaps you could consider, and digest first.  So we’re back to choices on how to communicate, I think we had this conversation already. Gary .I believe if your primarily acting out based on too high anxiety levels , your prone to not be happy, REACTIVE, sometime going into  avoidance states , sometimes manic states and sometimes  overly aggressive and maybe prone to hypertension and stress related illness.. In addition  you didn’t mention in your examples what affect pills or alcohol had for people with high anxiety levels when confronted with fire or cars in street traffic. I am not sure what you were trying to say though. Fred, a couple thoughts come to mind: 1)  Please write back, and give a concrete example of where you have actually been unable to handle a situation and have crumbled under pressure… 2)  It is not possible or desirable to be "cured of anxiety completely". Anxiety is an emotion that one must be capable of summoning.  EG:  If your anxiety level is so low that you don’t pay (or even open) bills that come, or don’t bother to step out of the way of an oncoming car, or leave a burning building – then you don’t have enough anxiety to survive. Wooo, where did this thought come from? Especially the bill paying? This is about the weirdest thing I ever heard here, knowing you usually sound rational. Its interesting to suggest though, that one doesn’t have enough anxiety if they can’t  leave a burning building in time or step out of the way of a oncoming car,although debateable, thats one I never heard proven before either .There are many many times I find I am slow at realizing things, where other people are more aware and so it depends on what someone is concentrating on. If the primal emotive response is survival or fight and flight then your analogy might make some sense. I think people with anxiety often have this primal fight or flight issue ongoing , more then others.. I wonder if your saying its better to stay and rationalize more then its better to fight (react fast) or flee. .So one can conclude anxiety gets in the way of good thought flow just as often as we might be more sensitive to outside stimulous and thus react faster.I just wonder how you know when you would react faster or slower. I am not saying your wrong or right though But the bill paying? I have anxiety and seldom bother paying bills from some past companies like wireless or where you can’t reach customer service. I don’t think this is about not enough anxiety. I get anxious for not paying them but I never correlated the connection.with the amount of anxiety.

Response:

<<There is no cure for anxiety, panic, depression, etc. If there was we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Your best goal is to manage it without it affecting your daily life very much. Accept that fact. That alone helps. The more you chase a cure, the longer anxiety will be present and you’ll become that person instead of a person enjoying life. Kevin, I must say, that was one of the most concisely and well-worded expressions of the truth that I’ve ever seen.  Kudos to you for it. Kindest Regards, Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dont know if any of you on this board have ever experienced this.. but has anyone close to you like your family or friends’ ever labelled you as not being strong enough to handle situations and crumbling under pressure due to anxiety? It makes me feel horrible and weak when I;m told by my mother, out of all people that I need to toughen up. I try to explain to her what I have to deal with on a constant basis, but I guess the scars cant be seen since theyre mostly internal and in the mind. What are the best techniques to handle stressful situations on top of having anxiety? Ive tried deep breathing which helps up to a point.. but I really want to be cured of anxiety completely. Is it possible? Has anyone achieved this? You really only have 2 choices. Stay in the situation and deal with it or get out of the situation. You cannot change other people, only yourself and the way you deal with things. I’ve my share of "snap out of it" "What the hell is wrong with you" etc. I laugh at those statements now cause in reality unless someone has this problem they cannot understand it. Family or not learn to not react to such negativity, if you cannot then get out of the situation. It’s that simple. There is no cure for anxiety, panic, depression, etc. If there was we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Your best goal is to manage it without it affecting your daily life very much. Accept that fact. That alone helps. The more you chase a cure, the longer anxiety will be present and you’ll become that person instead of a person enjoying life. Kevin..

Response:

If your saying everyone needs a certain degree of anxiety to be normal and safe I would agree. Many people might substitute or add  the word adrenalin in the mix. The problem with people like us is we often have a flawed response to stimuli based on our bodies adaptation of stress factors . If our body was subjected to lots of stress growing up for example, our body might  come to learn to shoot out adrenalin at the slightest provocation ( notthat this is you gary:) and thus its flawed. Thus we who have anxiety problems might  get or might have gotten stressed out faster then most who were normal . So Gary, If your then saying this stress might induce us to be safer in some situation  , I would agree but its more because  out of the side affect from too much stress rather then a normal display of properly balanced  anxiety . so its not the type one would or could hope to attain and rationalize with. Ultimately many people have told me , successful people have learned to take their stress and rerarrange it to do something useful with it. Some become obsessed with work and some might do marathons. I don’t know if however, the more successful someone becomes, the higher anxiety they had to begin with. Anxiety -stress and Energy levels are two different things and which I think your getting confused about when you make this anxiety chart stipulation and numbers for anxiety levels and calmness. ..  As for your other worry about me,, I don’t want to get into it. I tried to deal with subjects and ideas .

Response:

Question:

Don’t listen to mcs. I’ve been taking meds for Panic Disorder since 1997 and they have been a life saver. Tony ~ I post at alt.support.anxiety-panic.moderated

Response:

I have a two fold proven problem, i have a chemical imbalance that raises the adrenelin levels and i also have many psychological issues from my past that need to be faced…the meds keep the chemical imbalance under control…the P doc  takes care of the mental issues with me…right now i am in anxiety crisis…i am educated about my illness enough to accept that i needed to go back to sessions once a week I do not kid myself or try to convince myself that i will  be cured…i am convinced that i can with  hard work and following my doctors orders by taking my meds responsibily and  going to my sessions that i can live with this, and that  can  live a happy normal life…but it takes work on my part….i have had an anxiety problem for years…many years…i am slowly learning how to get a handle on things… I would not like to think about being in a room full of bats…or on an elevator without klonopin…it helps to take the edge off and keeps me grounded and centered enough to reason  the PA"S through with the tools i have learned and continue to learn  in therapy….. One thing i will agree with is who ever said…read bradshaw…yes anxiety and depression are linked with our past issues…sooner or later we have to face our fears. and work through them….Later Gypsy

Response:

Borderlines wreck havock wherever they go. You cannot settle with them, they set out to ruin therapists and whoever they feel they can get away with it.If you think I am kidding look it up. Probably have no job, probably never worked in their life.

i wish you would stop putting people down, just because they have a different mental dx than yourself.  suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder is not a joke, it’s not fun, and it’s hardly appropriate to say such rude things about it in a support group. -kelly

Response:

Borderlines wreck havock wherever they go. You cannot settle with them, they set out to ruin therapists and whoever they feel they can get away with it.If you think I am kidding look it up. Probably have no job, probably never worked in their life. i wish you would stop putting people down, just because they have a different mental dx than yourself.  suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder is not a joke, it’s not fun, and it’s hardly appropriate to say such rude things about it in a support group.

You go, girl!!  (And I like the nick "Metta"!!)  :) —  

Question:

Can anyone help me?  I am having a severe migraine headache that is obviously emotional in origin.  It started immediately after I had a rather harmless fl*shb*ck that is related to a time period of more severe ab*se that I have no memories of yet. Do any of you have any experience with this problem?   Have you found any

Yes yes and yes resolution for it?

Yes. I haven’t had one of ‘those’ headaches in… 12 years (maybe 14) before that I had them daily. This is going to get kind of complicated to explain. Feel free to share any/all of it with anyone you want to if it will help you and them understand what worked for me if you want to try it. Also, questions are fine, here or in email. I know it’s hard to understand another person’s process and how it applies to another person. Ok, first, the headaches for me were related to switching and were basically a struggle for control. I had some studies done to determine they were basically a combination of tension and cluster headaches from a purely physical stand point but were originating from our internal struggles over who was in control of the body. This said we approached the problem from several aspects. We have always studied far eastern and native american practices (out of body travel, deep meditation, self hypnosis, etc) and we also studied more ‘mundane’ practices like biofeedback and guided imagery. We took what worked best for us and combined it to attack the physical problem while at the same time attacking the switching issues. from a physical pov we did deep meditation, biofeedback, relaxation with tapes, various behavioral oriented things related to breathing, yoga, exercise and stretching and also made sure our diet was supporting our body (drank lots of water, cut out most artificial stuff, etc). Of course this was done only by those of us who agreed to it which was a problem at first. I mean, _I_ was willing to give up artificial everything and caffeine and sugar but Butch was NOT giving up her cup of chocolate coffee after t’py. NOPE So it was an imperfect solution From the switching pov we worked with our t’pist on guided hypnosis and self hypnosis to address the whole issue of control inside. Who was in charge, when, why, etc. This of course opened up a whole can of worms that was unique to us. Things like _why_ control was important, how that related to ocd stuff, how to be in control and still achieve balance (anyone here remember the whole ‘ambiguity’ dilemna?:) It took lots of practice and time. I probly worked on this on and off for four years. And then one day i realized we had been headache free for six months Oh, and while you are at it. Get an xray of your jaw to see if you are clenching your teeth while you sleep and are hurting your tempro mandibular joint in your jaw.One very important piece of all of this to me was that the stress and anxiety over many years had been doing some serious physical damage to my body. I did permanent damage in some ways that i have to manage to this day (like the permanent damage I did to several nerves and muscles in my body) and some of it i fortunately figured out how to reverse and heal (like my stomach problems). Of course I have now dedicated my life to the concept of ‘balance’ and find that even the permanent problems can be managed if i just keep things balanced. And if I don’t I notice a sliding toward problems and have to catch them and re-balance them immediately. I mention the jaw in particular because it is quite common in people in general to get relatively severe migraine like headaches if they clench their teeth in their sleep. There is a major facial nerve that runs past the jaw joint and it can easily get pinched or inflamed and then you have PAIN! there are several relatively simple splints available to be worn at night to fix this problem as well as things like making sure your pillow it correct and all that. Or you can do what i did and combine long term damage to the jaw with a serious rock climbing accident and destroy your jaw so that you need a specially made splint Rainbow Colors (Jill) Any insight you can give would be greatly appreciated. Pleiades & company

–      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

Response:

Can anyone help me?  I am having a severe migraine headache that is obviously emotional in origin.  It started immediately after I had a rather harmless fl*shb*ck that is related to a time period of more severe ab*se that I have no memories of yet. Do any of you have any experience with this problem?   Have you found any resolution for it? Any insight you can give would be greatly appreciated. Pleiades & company — http://radio.weblogs.com/0114986/

Response:

Yes.  okay.  I am also quite into all of these things you mentioned… not the shamanistic stuff, but the eastern stuff; meditation and especially hypnosis.  I think in the past I had problems clenching my jaw but have worked through that with the relaxation of hypnosis (I try to do at *least* once a day), now I find I sometimes need a band (like a hair band) around my jaw to keep it closed (LOL)!!  I have had the trigeminal neuralgia; know what that is like, since I was about 16.  I take neruontin for it and rarely get it now. I think I would agree with you that these are *control* headaches, since there are about 12 of us involved, mabe 4-6 of us at a time.  The time I seem to exhibit these headaches is when I am touching on something that is going to bring up perhaps a hurtful memory.  As I said, we did have one memory which seemed fairly harmless… but if I have that kind of recall from such an early period…. it makes sense that the memories of ab*se are there too.  The control struggle?  To protect the others in my family of origin, or to call up the pain (which is hard on *me* too!) and work on healing.  This particular memory may be the hardest; it is one of the earliest, and involves my beloved brother whom I basically attached to in a father/daughter sort of way.  But he was only 12/13 when the ab*se happened…. can he be considered accountable as a full adult, when he was embroiled in such horrible family practices himself.  Also, he confessed to what he did, because he carried guilt about it all his life, so how hard is that to bring out the full anger and deal with it, instead of patting him on the back and just crying with him? But, yes… you have helped me.  In the past, I used lucid dreaming and dream analysis, but lately I have not been able to get into my dream states as well.  I have lupus and I take a zhitload of medication, some of which may be interfering with my dream processes. Or maybe I am just impatient, and the process just needs to unfold :0).  One time I had a migraine for 27 days nonstop, and ran from pillar to post trying to get relief, rather than just stopping and realizing, hey  the crud just has to come up and out through my brain, which can be a pretty cramped spot sometimes, right?  :-D thank you so much, and anyone else with ideas, please chime right in! The Pleiades  (I don’t do the greatest job of retaining my anonymity do i?) LOL.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone help me?  I am having a severe migraine headache that is obviously emotional in origin.  It started immediately after I had a rather harmless fl*shb*ck that is related to a time period of more severe ab*se that I have no memories of yet. Do any of you have any experience with this problem?   Have you found any Yes yes and yes resolution for it? Yes. I haven’t had one of ‘those’ headaches in… 12 years (maybe 14) before that I had them daily. This is going to get kind of complicated to explain. Feel free to share any/all of it with anyone you want to if it will help you and them understand what worked for me if you want to try it. Also, questions are fine, here or in email. I know it’s hard to understand another person’s process and how it applies to another person. Ok, first, the headaches for me were related to switching and were basically a struggle for control. I had some studies done to determine they were basically a combination of tension and cluster headaches from a purely physical stand point but were originating from our internal struggles over who was in control of the body. This said we approached the problem from several aspects. We have always studied far eastern and native american practices (out of body travel, deep meditation, self hypnosis, etc) and we also studied more ‘mundane’ practices like biofeedback and guided imagery. We took what worked best for us and combined it to attack the physical problem while at the same time attacking the switching issues. from a physical pov we did deep meditation, biofeedback, relaxation with tapes, various behavioral oriented things related to breathing, yoga, exercise and stretching and also made sure our diet was supporting our body (drank lots of water, cut out most artificial stuff, etc). Of course this was done only by those of us who agreed to it which was a problem at first. I mean, _I_ was willing to give up artificial everything and caffeine and sugar but Butch was NOT giving up her cup of chocolate coffee after t’py. NOPE So it was an imperfect solution From the switching pov we worked with our t’pist on guided hypnosis and self hypnosis to address the whole issue of control inside. Who was in charge, when, why, etc. This of course opened up a whole can of worms that was unique to us. Things like _why_ control was important, how that related to ocd stuff, how to be in control and still achieve balance (anyone here remember the whole ‘ambiguity’ dilemna?:) It took lots of practice and time. I probly worked on this on and off for four years. And then one day i realized we had been headache free for six months Oh, and while you are at it. Get an xray of your jaw to see if you are clenching your teeth while you sleep and are hurting your tempro mandibular joint in your jaw.One very important piece of all of this to me was that the stress and anxiety over many years had been doing some serious physical damage to my body. I did permanent damage in some ways that i have to manage to this day (like the permanent damage I did to several nerves and muscles in my body) and some of it i fortunately figured out how to reverse and heal (like my stomach problems). Of course I have now dedicated my life to the concept of ‘balance’ and find that even the permanent problems can be managed if i just keep things balanced. And if I don’t I notice a sliding toward problems and have to catch them and re-balance them immediately. I mention the jaw in particular because it is quite common in people in general to get relatively severe migraine like headaches if they clench their teeth in their sleep. There is a major facial nerve that runs past the jaw joint and it can easily get pinched or inflamed and then you have PAIN! there are several relatively simple splints available to be worn at night to fix this problem as well as things like making sure your pillow it correct and all that. Or you can do what i did and combine long term damage to the jaw with a serious rock climbing accident and destroy your jaw so that you need a specially made splint Rainbow Colors (Jill) Any insight you can give would be greatly appreciated. Pleiades & company —      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

Response:

(anyone here remember the whole ‘ambiguity’ dilemna?:) maybe — astri <duck and run heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

*giggles* *giggles* *giggles* silly astri. *giggles* lizzie [Val: Fwiw, she's giggling so hard she almost can't do anything else. *grin*]

Response:

(anyone here remember the whole ‘ambiguity’ dilemna?:)

maybe — astri <duck and run heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Response:

Question:

Oh, and I meant to add that I am not losing any weight from all the exercise, just maintaining my current weight.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have recently been diagnosed with ocd by my pdoc, but my therapist thinks that part of my ocd is actually bulimia.  I obssess about weight gain, compulsively eat and then compulsively exercise to get rid of the calories. I do not throw up but I do take laxatives but only because I am constipated because of medication side effects.  I do a normal exercise routine for about an hour in the morning.  Then in the afternoon I eat candy, cookies and snack mix, and then I compulsively exercise by walking in a figure eight pattern around my furniture in my apartment sometimes adding arm movements to exercise my arms too, and I do this for up to three and a half hours, making my total exercise for the day up to four and a half hours.  I am afraid this is damaging my knees as they hurt and I have injured them many times in the past, so you see this is a problem, and also a big waste of time.  So could this really be bulimia? Or is it just part of my ocd.  The other part of my ocd is that I have a rigid down to the minute daily and weekly schedule that I have to maintain or else I get very upset to the point of having a rage attack and hurting myself if something goes wrong and throws me off schedule.  So I was just wondering if anyone else had heard of bulimia without the throwing up, just compulsive exercising? Sasha

Response:

I have recently been diagnosed with ocd by my pdoc, but my therapist thinks that part of my ocd is actually bulimia.  I obssess about weight gain, compulsively eat and then compulsively exercise to get rid of the calories. I do not throw up but I do take laxatives but only because I am constipated because of medication side effects.  I do a normal exercise routine for about an hour in the morning.  Then in the afternoon I eat candy, cookies and snack mix, and then I compulsively exercise by walking in a figure eight pattern around my furniture in my apartment sometimes adding arm movements to exercise my arms too, and I do this for up to three and a half hours, making my total exercise for the day up to four and a half hours.  I am afraid this is damaging my knees as they hurt and I have injured them many times in the past, so you see this is a problem, and also a big waste of time.  So could this really be bulimia? Or is it just part of my ocd.  The other part of my ocd is that I have a rigid down to the minute daily and weekly schedule that I have to maintain or else I get very upset to the point of having a rage attack and hurting myself if something goes wrong and throws me off schedule.  So I was just wondering if anyone else had heard of bulimia without the throwing up, just compulsive exercising? Sasha

Response:

whats wrong with putting on weigth, i am under weight, i wish is could put on some weight, i really feel the cold, and wish i could put on weight

I wish I was underweight.  I want to look like a model but I am only 5′ 1&1/2" so in order to look that lanky I would have to be really really thin. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: alt.support.eating-disord <snip It seems that when I am not exercising I am eating.  It is difficult to not think about the eating.  I am afraid that if I do not do the exercising I will gain weight and now with all this exercising I am just maintaining my weight.  I need to cut down on the eating but I feel that eating candy is my only reason for living, my only real joy in life. Gosh – that sounds so much like me. * *spoiler for discussing exercise and calories * * * * * * * Since I have been at the ed for so long, when I am in a heavy bulimic phase there are times I must cut back on purging because of my body’s physical state. But I can’t always switch to heavy restricting easily, so if I continue to binge eat, I am spending hours and hours exercising. For about four months straight I was exercising at least 2000 calories /day and since I was eating so much, I was maintaining my weight. I don’t think it would have been possible to maintain that level of physical activity had I been eating normally though… I don’t think I’d have had the energy.(btw – with the help of my exercise physiologist/nutritionist and therapist in the last month I have managed to cut back to almost half-that amount… and definitely keeping it under 2000/day but struggling to do that. I am just feeling so so guilty because if I have those extra hours when I am not exercising… thus I am eating… it doesn’t help with all that darned easter candy is out in the stores now… ugh.) Anyway, my treatment "team" feel that the exercise is just another way of compensating for the eating… therefore, it is considered to be an ‘eating disorder behavior’. At one point, back in September of last year, I was hospitalized for about a week on a lousy ed unit so of course I could not exercise and couldnt binge/purge or anything… I thought I was going to go CRAZY- felt like I was crawling out of my skin in attacks of anxiety and angst over the inability to numb myself as I was used to!) I don’t know if any of this was at all helpful for you to read – probably not. I just wanted to let you know that I think I understand what you describe.

Response:

whats wrong with putting on weigth, i am under weight, i wish is could put on some weight, i really feel the cold, and wish i could put on weight – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: alt.support.eating-disord <snip It seems that when I am not exercising I am eating.  It is difficult to not think about the eating.  I am afraid that if I do not do the exercising I will gain weight and now with all this exercising I am just maintaining my weight.  I need to cut down on the eating but I feel that eating candy is my only reason for living, my only real joy in life. Gosh – that sounds so much like me. * *spoiler for discussing exercise and calories * * * * * * * Since I have been at the ed for so long, when I am in a heavy bulimic phase there are times I must cut back on purging because of my body’s physical state. But I can’t always switch to heavy restricting easily, so if I continue to binge eat, I am spending hours and hours exercising. For about four months straight I was exercising at least 2000 calories /day and since I was eating so much, I was maintaining my weight. I don’t think it would have been possible to maintain that level of physical activity had I been eating normally though… I don’t think I’d have had the energy.(btw – with the help of my exercise physiologist/nutritionist and therapist in the last month I have managed to cut back to almost half-that amount… and definitely keeping it under 2000/day but struggling to do that. I am just feeling so so guilty because if I have those extra hours when I am not exercising… thus I am eating… it doesn’t help with all that darned easter candy is out in the stores now… ugh.) Anyway, my treatment "team" feel that the exercise is just another way of compensating for the eating… therefore, it is considered to be an ‘eating disorder behavior’. At one point, back in September of last year, I was hospitalized for about a week on a lousy ed unit so of course I could not exercise and couldnt binge/purge or anything… I thought I was going to go CRAZY- felt like I was crawling out of my skin in attacks of anxiety and angst over the inability to numb myself as I was used to!) I don’t know if any of this was at all helpful for you to read – probably not. I just wanted to let you know that I think I understand what you describe.

Response:

<snip It seems that when I am not exercising I am eating.  It is difficult to not think about the eating.  I am afraid that if I do not do the exercising I will gain weight and now with all this exercising I am just maintaining my weight.  I need to cut down on the eating but I feel that eating candy is my only reason for living, my only real joy in life.

Gosh – that sounds so much like me. * *spoiler for discussing exercise and calories * * * * * * * Since I have been at the ed for so long, when I am in a heavy bulimic phase there are times I must cut back on purging because of my body’s physical state. But I can’t always switch to heavy restricting easily, so if I continue to binge eat, I am spending hours and hours exercising. For about four months straight I was exercising at least 2000 calories /day and since I was eating so much, I was maintaining my weight. I don’t think it would have been possible to maintain that level of physical activity had I been eating normally though… I don’t think I’d have had the energy.(btw – with the help of my exercise physiologist/nutritionist and therapist in the last month I have managed to cut back to almost half-that amount… and definitely keeping it under 2000/day but struggling to do that. I am just feeling so so guilty because if I have those extra hours when I am not exercising… thus I am eating… it doesn’t help with all that darned easter candy is out in the stores now… ugh.) Anyway, my treatment "team" feel that the exercise is just another way of compensating for the eating… therefore, it is considered to be an ‘eating disorder behavior’. At one point, back in September of last year, I was hospitalized for about a week on a lousy ed unit so of course I could not exercise and couldnt binge/purge or anything… I thought I was going to go CRAZY- felt like I was crawling out of my skin in attacks of anxiety and angst over the inability to numb myself as I was used to!) I don’t know if any of this was at all helpful for you to read – probably not. I just wanted to let you know that I think I understand what you describe.

Response:

Sasha,   I have recently been diagnosed with ocd by my pdoc, but my therapist thinks   that part of my ocd is actually bulimia.  I obssess about weight gain,   compulsively eat and then compulsively exercise to get rid of the calories. I consider myself to be an exercise bulimic and I strongly feel that it fully qualifies as bulimic. I really believe that eating disorders are often obsessive in many ways. If you have OCD, I think it would be worthwhile to find out why you obsess about weight gain rather than other things. I too have never thrown up as part of purging and I have been working on not exercising in order to rid myself of calories. I have also been diagnosed with OCD, but I have largely overcome most of my obsessions (not weight yet), but some come and go. If you want anyone to talk to about this, feel free to email me. -ophelia — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

Sasha–Over-exercising is considered a form of purging, so I would imagine you classify as Bulimic, although I can’t diagnose you.

I guess since my therapist mentioned it, that was close to being a diagnosis. I can also relate to being rigid with schedules.  A form of control–actually being out-of-control.  I know my upbringing was rigid, which didn’t help.

Mine too.  But up until the middle of last year I didn’t have this problem. Have you considered alternative distractions instead of filling so much of your day up w/eating/exercising?

It seems that when I am not exercising I am eating.  It is difficult to not think about the eating.  I am afraid that if I do not do the exercising I will gain weight and now with all this exercising I am just maintaining my weight.  I need to cut down on the eating but I feel that eating candy is my only reason for living, my only real joy in life.  I used to use alcohol, but that is bad and has a lot of calories too, but I am trying to replace it with candy, but sometimes I still do it, or both. I stay at home most of the time because of mental health reasons (I have other disorders) and have no friends to do things with.  I have a husband but he usually gets home after the exercising is finished.  It is hard for me to be in the house and not eat, and my husband likes for there to be snacks available at home so there they are.  It is difficult for me to do things outside of the apartment though, I get very anxious being away from home.   It’s hard to break habits, but if you have something to replace them with, that can really help.  Are you bored, anxious,  lonelyor having other feelings you’re trying to fill?

I guess I am kind of bored and lonely, and definitely anxious although I take enough anxiety meds.  Nowadays most of my anxiety revolves around worrying about my schedule and having enough exercise.   Do you talk w/your therapist about healthy alternative coping skills/diversions to your current unhealthy habits that fill your day & are ruining your knees?

Not yet, I have so many problems it is difficult to fit them all in.   Have you tried changing your schedule around by a few minutes at a time to see what happens when you’re not so rigid w/your time?

Right now I am too rigid to be able to do that, it would greatly upset me.   Have you tried relaxation/breathing/yoga/journaling/getting out of the house?

I have tried to get to a yoga class but doctor’s appointments keep running long.  I have lots of doctor’s appointments.  I go for walks outside too, but as I said, I cannot be away from my apartment for long. Just some things that have helped me.  Keep posting & talking to your IRL treatment team!!  Good luck.

Thanks, Sasha   Feel free to email me if you want to chat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – more. Lynette

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My server wouldn’t post this message, then it decided to do it 3 times. Sorry!! :<) Lynette

Response:

Sasha–Over-exercising is considered a form of purging, so I would imagine you classify as Bulimic, although I can’t diagnose you. I can also relate to being rigid with schedules.  A form of control–actually being out-of-control.  I know my upbringing was rigid, which didn’t help. Have you considered alternative distractions instead of filling so much of your day up w/eating/exercising?  It’s hard to break habits, but if you have something to replace them with, that can really help.  Are you bored, anxious,  lonelyor having other feelings you’re trying to fill?  Do you talk w/your therapist about healthy alternative coping skills/diversions to your current unhealthy habits that fill your day & are ruining your knees?  Have you tried changing your schedule around by a few minutes at a time to see what happens when you’re not so rigid w/your time?  Have you tried relaxation/breathing/yoga/journaling/getting out of the house? Just some things that have helped me.  Keep posting & talking to your IRL treatment team!!  Good luck.  Feel free to email me if you want to chat more. Lynette

Response:

Question:

Hello All, I’ve been reading this newsgroup for several months now and appreciate all of the good information.  I am a T2 for about three years and am currently using 3 kinds of pills to control my BG. I’ve had some neuropathy in my feet, almost since the beginning, but it comes and goes, and I can tolerate it.  About 6 weeks ago I got a "similar" feeling in my right hand (ring finger and little finger) and the side of my hand to the wrist.  I don’t have this feeling in my thumb or first two fingers. Unlike the neuropathy in my feet, this is constant – and does not change with my BG level or time.  My GP says it’s neuropathy and offers me no suggestions.  Do any of you have any experience like this?

I have moderate neuropathy in my feet and lower legs.  My hands were not tested for it.  But I do get pains there from time to time and sure have them at the moment!  It is rather difficult for me to type because of the numbness.  My right hand is worse than the left at the moment and the area of numbness is mostly in the ring and little finger and the back of my hand. My Endo. has me on Evening Primrose Oil for the neuropathy.  And prior to that I was taking Flaxseed Oil.  I was taking the Flaxseed to help with a skin problem.  And after taking it for a month or so, I noticed that I was a lot more mobile than I was.  And my pain had lessened.  Have since read that the two should be taken together.  The Endo. has no problems with me taking the Flaxseed.  I’m really not sure if the Primrose is helping me or not. Have been taking it for about 4 1/2 months now.  But was told that it can take a while to work.  I also take MSM and that helps a lot with pain.  I do have Fibromyalgia and Psoriatic Arthritis as well.  So when I have pain, I am not usually sure which of my problems is causing it.  I know it’s neuropathy at the moment though due to wild BG. — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

Response:

Possibly another instance of "not everything that’s wrong is due to diabetes" ! (Sometimes doctors think that because you have <pick your disease, any new symptoms that show up are due to it, not some other problem. Tunnel vision.) "Gary N. Smith" wrote … I’ve had some neuropathy in my feet, almost since the beginning,

but it comes and goes, and I can tolerate it.  About 6 weeks ago I got a "similar" feeling in my right hand (ring finger and little finger) and the side of my hand to the wrist.  I don’t have this feeling in my thumb or first two fingers. Unlike the neuropathy in my feet, this is constant – and does not change with my BG level or time.  My GP says it’s neuropathy and offers me no suggestions.  Do any of you have any experience like this? "Beth Peace"  wrote … I’m no expert but it could be "Cubital tunnel syndrome" where the

ulnar nerve (that controls the pinky & ring finger) gets compressed in the elbow joint. From http://www.handsurgeon.com/cubital.html:  Early signs are

numbness on the inside of the hand and in the ring and little fingers. Later there is weakness of the hand. There may be pain at the elbow. Tapping on the nerve as it passes through the cubital tunnel causes tingling or electric shock sensation down to the small finger. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.plasticsurgery4u.com/procedure_folder/cubital_tunnel.html also has some info.

Response:

  Just saying hello and welcome to a fellow Smith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All, I’ve been reading this newsgroup for several months now and appreciate all of the good information.  I am a T2 for about three years and am currently using 3 kinds of pills to control my BG. I’ve had some neuropathy in my feet, almost since the beginning, but it comes and goes, and I can tolerate it.  About 6 weeks ago I got a "similar" feeling in my right hand (ring finger and little finger) and the side of my hand to the wrist.  I don’t have this feeling in my thumb or first two fingers. Unlike the neuropathy in my feet, this is constant – and does not change with my BG level or time.  My GP says it’s neuropathy and offers me no suggestions.  Do any of you have any experience like this? Thanks in advance. Gary Smith A1c = 7.6 and getting lower.

Response:

Would like someone to try to describe the "pain" sensation with their neuropathy.With me it’s a concentrated burning across the top of each foot behind the toes.It was more pronounced(18 months -) prior to diagnosis and is certainly aggravated by ill-fitting shoes .It’s not unbearably painful like a toothache,headache for examples,and can be alleviated by soaking them in cold water for a few minutes. First became aware of  the numbness in all my fingers when my BG became critical(450  at diagnosis),but has since abated somewhat and  now includes ‘pins and needles’ and occasionally very sharp electrical-type jabs. Both feet and hands are worse in the evening,no problem at night and not too bad during day. After research on the web , am taking  Evening Primrose Oil (3 x 1000mg per day) and Vitamin B12(1 x VB Complex per day).After only 6 weeks symptoms seem to be subsiding,and certainly have a better sense of well-being generally.Am starting deep breathing(yoga type) to try to improve circulation. As for all this curse’s complications though,keeping the numbers as low as poss is always  the number one treatment.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All, I’ve been reading this newsgroup for several months now and appreciate all of the good information.  I am a T2 for about three years and am currently using 3 kinds of pills to control my BG. I’ve had some neuropathy in my feet, almost since the beginning, but it comes and goes, and I can tolerate it.  About 6 weeks ago I got a "similar" feeling in my right hand (ring finger and little finger) and the side of my hand to the wrist.  I don’t have this feeling in my thumb or first two fingers. Unlike the neuropathy in my feet, this is constant – and does not change with my BG level or time.  My GP says it’s neuropathy and offers me no suggestions.  Do any of you have any experience like this? I have moderate neuropathy in my feet and lower legs.  My hands were not tested for it.  But I do get pains there from time to time and sure have them at the moment!  It is rather difficult for me to type because of the numbness.  My right hand is worse than the left at the moment and the area of numbness is mostly in the ring and little finger and the back of my hand. My Endo. has me on Evening Primrose Oil for the neuropathy.  And prior to that I was taking Flaxseed Oil.  I was taking the Flaxseed to help with a skin problem.  And after taking it for a month or so, I noticed that I was a lot more mobile than I was.  And my pain had lessened.  Have since read that the two should be taken together.  The Endo. has no problems with me taking the Flaxseed.  I’m really not sure if the Primrose is helping me or not. Have been taking it for about 4 1/2 months now.  But was told that it can take a while to work.  I also take MSM and that helps a lot with pain.  I do have Fibromyalgia and Psoriatic Arthritis as well.  So when I have pain, I am not usually sure which of my problems is causing it.  I know it’s neuropathy at the moment though due to wild BG. — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

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I found the articles too large to forward. Try the following site: http://dem0nmac.mgh.harvard.edu/neurowebforum/PeripheralNeuropathyArt… itaminb12deficiency.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Level of B12 is determine by the schilling test using nuclear medicine. At this time, B12 can only be absorb by an injection into a muscle.  The dosage has to be controlled by your doctor who monitor the result of the schilling test.  B12 tablets will not be absorb by the body. Is there a connection with diabetes and B12, yes.  More information can be had through your diabetic teaching nurses and doctors.  Some of the sites on the internet are interesting.  Just type B12 in your search engine or ask your diabetic teaching center.  If your reside in the United States it may cost you big money to have these test done.  The cost may be cover by your insurance. do you have any cites for this?  when i searched b12 and diabetes all i got was holistic medicine and snake oil sites coming up  nothing of any real medical publications " The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" "The internet is probably not the cheapest and easiest way of purchasing anything or doing anything"

Response:

I found the articles too large to forward. Try the following site: http://dem0nmac.mgh.harvard.edu/neurowebforum/PeripheralNeuropathyArt… itaminb12deficiency.html

that is a question and answer on a web forum  not much different than someone on a newsgroup  still no cites from real studies " The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" "The internet is probably not the cheapest and easiest way of purchasing anything or doing anything"

Response:

When I was diagnosed with neuropathy, the neurologist dismissed me saying that he wouldn’t need to see me again and nothing could be done for me. Told me that neuropathy doesn’t get better and there is no treatment for it. That didn’t make me feel too good.  But I also knew it just wasn’t so.  My Endo. had already discussed the possibilty of neuropathy with me and had mentioned possible treatments.  Now whether it is curable or not, I do

notknow.  But it is sometimes treatable. — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

 Excuse me Julie, but how it is treatable? I have severe neuropathy in both feet and no one had tried any treatments. I had type 2 diabetes for probably 10 years before it was picked up. The odd part is that every year I was tested by fasting for blood glucose results and every year in was in the 90’s but never above. My doctor could never understand why I had the level of neuropathy I had. I was tested for everything from MS on. Then my blood sugar was 125 but the neuropathy was already well established before that. But they just diagnosed me and that was it, no treatments were offered. They did give me a tricylic antidepressant called pamelor for pain but it didn’t work. –mel–

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Gary so far I have no neuropathy.  But you made a point of that when the doctor told you he didnt offer you any suggestions.  My question was why didnt you ask him how you can handle this or reverse it if posible. We as patients have to stop waitijng for doctors to tell us.  They are only human with a higher degree in education and medical school but not necessarily  gives them common sense.  When I go to a doctor and he tells me something, I say why , how come what can I do.  WE have to be in charge so that we get what we are paying for and dont leave with unanswered questions.

<snip When I was diagnosed with neuropathy, the neurologist dismissed me saying that he wouldn’t need to see me again and nothing could be done for me. Told me that neuropathy doesn’t get better and there is no treatment for it. That didn’t make me feel too good.  But I also knew it just wasn’t so.  My Endo. had already discussed the possibilty of neuropathy with me and had mentioned possible treatments.  Now whether it is curable or not, I do not know.  But it is sometimes treatable. — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Level of B12 is determine by the schilling test using nuclear medicine.  At this time, B12 can only be absorb by an injection into a muscle.  The dosage has to be controlled by your doctor who monitor the result of the schilling test.  B12 tablets will not be absorb by the body. Is there a connection with diabetes and B12, yes.  More information can be had through your diabetic teaching nurses and doctors.  Some of the sites on the internet are interesting.  Just type B12 in your search engine or ask your diabetic teaching center.  If your reside in the United States it may cost you big money to have these test done.  The cost may be cover by your insurance.

do you have any cites for this?  when i searched b12 and diabetes all i got was holistic medicine and snake oil sites coming up  nothing of any real medical publications " The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" "The internet is probably not the cheapest and easiest way of purchasing anything or doing anything"

Response:

Gary so far I have no neuropathy.  But you made a point of that when the doctor told you he didnt offer you any suggestions.  My question was why didnt you ask him how you can handle this or reverse it if posible. We as patients have to stop waitijng for doctors to tell us.  They are only human with a higher degree in education and medical school but not necessarily  gives them common sense.  When I go to a doctor and he tells me something, I say why , how come what can I do.  WE have to be in charge so that we get what we are paying for and dont leave with unanswered questions. I went to a leading dermatologist in New York for a consultation and when he finished he said to me you intimidate me. What me intimidate the best derm in New York and he said I was not going to be an easy case of tell me what to do and I will just do it. I would drive him nuts with questions which we both laughed abut and which was true but for 200 a visit, paid mostly by insurance. I for sure was getting my monies worth. Loretta America will stand strong and always be the home of the brave and the land of the free..

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<snip Even a dental numbing shot puts me in an impaired condition for the rest of the day.

And I thought I was the only one who reacted like that!  I have had dental work done without the Novocain because it affects me so badly.  It doesn’t do a lot for my pain, but it makes me sick feeling and so sleepy I can’t function. — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

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Sorry to hear that Elavil was not the answer for you, and that it resulted in a major problem for you. True, not all diabetics are the same, but I think it is worth looking into.  I know that when my pain was at its worst, I was looking for ANYTHING to relieve my agony long enough for a good nght’s sleep once in awhile.  Not only was it disturbing MY sleep, but my legs tended to jerk spasmodically throughout the night, disturbing my light sleeping wife. Elavil is not a cure-all, I must sadly admit, but it has brought the pain down to a level that I can tolerate and live with. One side "benefit" of the neuropathy is that it is my first sign of impending hypoglycemia.  When my feet totally stop hurting and feel warm, I know to check my BG and plan on having something to eat.   Not every thing is the same for all diabetics.   The docs put me on Elavil.  The result was the only major automobile accident I was ever involved in. This does not mean it is not useful for some people but be warned. Even a dental numbing shot puts me in an impaired condition for the rest of the day. For me it didn’t affect the severe pain I was dealing with from neuropathy.

"If you can’t baffle ‘em with BS, then screw ‘em with logic."–Me

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Do we know what is the situation with your level of B12.  Is it normal or low??

Not sure what my B12 level is….never though of it being something to look into.  I take my multi-vitamin each day and eat well so I guess I don’t worry about it.  Is there a connection? "If you can’t baffle ‘em with BS, then screw ‘em with logic."–Me

Response:

Level of B12 is determine by the schilling test using nuclear medicine.  At this time, B12 can only be absorb by an injection into a muscle.  The dosage has to be controlled by your doctor who monitor the result of the schilling test.  B12 tablets will not be absorb by the body. Is there a connection with diabetes and B12, yes.  More information can be had through your diabetic teaching nurses and doctors.  Some of the sites on the internet are interesting.  Just type B12 in your search engine or ask your diabetic teaching center.  If your reside in the United States it may cost you big money to have these test done.  The cost may be cover by your insurance.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do we know what is the situation with your level of B12.  Is it normal or low?? Not sure what my B12 level is….never though of it being something to look into.  I take my multi-vitamin each day and eat well so I guess I don’t worry about it.  Is there a connection? "If you can’t baffle ‘em with BS, then screw ‘em with logic."–Me

Response:

This morning I just had a test for the nerves system. They verified the hands and the feet.  The neurosurgeon was impressed with the results. The feedback was good for a 12 years long diabetic.  Neuropathy is not the cause of my situation.  This validated prior shilling tests that my B12 level was way down.  He stated that with proper B12 injections and shilling tests my problem will slowly go away.  He made my day!! Do we know what is the situation with your level of B12.  Is it normal or low??

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am T2 with neuropathy in both feet for a few years before I was diagnoseed in 07/00.  For my neuropathic pain, I take the antidepressant Elavil.  It provided near instant relief at night so that at the very least I could sleep.  My doctor also spoke of a study done in europe that should a definite decrease in neuropathic pain when we keep out sugar below 140 as muc has possible.  I have found this to be true.  I still take the Elavil at night (just to be sure ) ).  There are other meds out there that can prescribed that are considered as a med for another illness, one of them was actually an anti-convulsant (began with "T"….that’s all I remember) "If you can’t baffle ‘em with BS, then screw ‘em with logic."–Me

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I am T2 with neuropathy in both feet for a few years before I was diagnoseed in 07/00.  For my neuropathic pain, I take the antidepressant Elavil.  It provided near instant relief at night so that at the very least I could sleep.  My doctor also spoke of a study done in europe that should a definite decrease in neuropathic pain when we keep out sugar below 140 as muc has possible.  I have found this to be true.  I still take the Elavil at night (just to be sure ) ).  There are other meds out there that can prescribed that are considered as a med for another illness, one of them was actually an anti-convulsant (began with "T"….that’s all I remember)   "If you can’t baffle ‘em with BS, then screw ‘em with logic."–Me

Not every thing is the same for all diabetics.   The docs put me on Elavil.  The result was the only major automobile accident I was ever involved in. This does not mean it is not useful for some people but be warned. Even a dental numbing shot puts me in an impaired condition for the rest of the day. For me it didn’t affect the severe pain I was dealing with from neuropathy.                                   Guy Williams.

Response:

I am T2 with neuropathy in both feet for a few years before I was diagnoseed in 07/00.  For my neuropathic pain, I take the antidepressant Elavil.  It provided near instant relief at night so that at the very least I could sleep.  My doctor also spoke of a study done in europe that should a definite decrease in neuropathic pain when we keep out sugar below 140 as muc has possible.  I have found this to be true.  I still take the Elavil at night (just to be sure ) ).  There are other meds out there that can prescribed that are considered as a med for another illness, one of them was actually an anti-convulsant (began with "T"….that’s all I remember)   "If you can’t baffle ‘em with BS, then screw ‘em with logic."–Me

Response:

This advice is so right Guy.I ‘ve done quite alot of reading on neuropathy and there’s obviously no better effective treatment against its  progress than very tight and regimented control of bg. Kindest  regards.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have posted many times.  Until you get your blood sugar under control you will probably have a progressive neuropathy problem. NO medication or gimmick ever had any real benefit. When I brought the blood sugar to under 150( peak value) on a 24-7 basis slowly the severe symptoms slowly started to abate.  Right now I have some hand burning because I am bouncing high once and a while. Need to tighten up on my eating schedule.  If you go out and eat a big meal then complain, you will get no sympathy from me. The meter will tell the story. If it show a peak of say 300 after a meal what do you expect? You can’t talk your way out of diabetes.  Your system has  changed and you have to change to reduce the problems. There is no instant help for neuropathy.  It takes time. In fact it may get worse when the nerves start to recover.  Like when you set on your legs too long. That is the way I see it, based on my experiences.                                   Guy Williams

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Thanks very much for your detailed reply Julie,it is just what I have been searching for.Obviously my neuropathy is not as pronounced as yours.This does not make me feel particularly any better about it,just a lot more grateful. Be well and God bless you. (Years ago I managed the opera/ballet orchestra at the Sydney Opera House and jumped down into the pit breaking my little toe.Now that was pain!!!)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would like someone to try to describe the "pain" sensation with their neuropathy.With me it’s a concentrated burning across the top of each foot behind the toes.It was more pronounced(18 months -) prior to diagnosis and is certainly aggravated by ill-fitting shoes .It’s not unbearably painful like a toothache,headache for examples,and can be alleviated by soaking them in cold water for a few minutes. First became aware of  the numbness in all my fingers when my BG became critical(450  at diagnosis),but has since abated somewhat and  now includes ‘pins and needles’ and occasionally very sharp electrical-type jabs. Both feet and hands are worse in the evening,no problem at night and not too bad during day. <snip As I said before, I do have other medical problems that cause pain.  So I am not entirely sure which problems relate to neuropathy.  But when I described these particular symptoms to the second neurologist I saw, he said they sounded like neuropathy.  Sometimes numbness or a pins and needles sensation.  More often there will be a crushing sensation.  Feels like someone with big strong hands has a hold of each foot and is squeezing it as hard as they can.  Sometimes my toes feel broken.  I have had broken toes, so I know that pain.  Sometimes it feels like I am walking on rocks or pebbles.  At the worst…imagine a big round, sort of flat stone.  The shape of it would be like a plain M & M…but much, much larger, like the diameter of a salad plate.  Now imagine that stone being stuck on the bottom of your foot and having to walk on it.  That is what it feels like at the worst. You not only feel the stone pressing up into your foot with each and every step, but you feel the weight of it dragging you down.  And because it is curved a bit on the bottom, you feel it throwing you off balance with every step.  And that pain doesn’t go away.  Even when you sit or lie down, that stone is still there. Sometimes I get crawling sensations up and down my legs.  Like I am covered with bugs or cobwebs. Sometimes there is a warm, fuzzy sensation.  Like I am wearing thick, heavy socks.  Sometimes my feet and legs are freezing and nothing will warm them up.  Sometimes I can’t wear socks or shoes because they feel like they are far too tight and are squeezing me.  I have had to buy huge clownish socks that I wear sometimes when things get really bad.  It is next to impossible to walk in them.  They are so large that they lump up under my feet or fly off because they contain no elastic.  I can’t put my shoes on when wearing them.  But my feet get cold.  And they are better than nothing.  Sometimes there is a burning sensation.  I am feeling that now.  Sometimes I will get strange little muscle cramps and spasms.  I have watched my toes jerk around this way and that on their own accord.  Or the back of my calves will tighten up and not loosen.  There have been times when all I could do was stand in an awkward position for a half an hour or so because the slightest little movement causes the cramps.  Can’t sit.  Can’t lie down.  Must stand and put all of my weight on the leg that is cramping.  I have had this happen when I’m in the bathroom and that is no fun!  Makes it difficult to use the toilet or get out of the bathtub if it happens in there. At night, I feel like I am blind.  I can see things, but they deceive me. The worst is stepping from light into shadow.  I can’t feel the ground beneath my feet.  It’s an overwhelming feeling.  I know the ground is there, and yet I feel like I will sink into a big pit and fall.  Must inch my way along…trying not to lift my feet and grabbing at anything and everything for support.  When I come to a curb or a step, I must tap along it with my foot…trying to feel for height or depth before I step down.  I do pretty well if I am holding someone’s hand when I walk.  That seems to give me more of a sense of balance.  Otherwise, I have to touch something down to the ground as I walk.  This might be my purse or the bottom of my daughter’s diaper bag.  If I can touch something to the ground every few steps, I do better.  I also have to constantly look at my feet.  Have to do this day and night.  People have laughed at me for doing it.  But if I don’t, I can and will fall.  At home, or places I go frequently, I don’t have to do this. But outside, or places I am unfamiliar with, I do.  I once fell in the hospital.  Was going out the door and there was about 1/2" different in the floor height between the foyer and the entrance to the hospital due to the difference of carpet there.  Just that little bit of difference sent me flying.  I stumbled and stumbled, trying to gain my balance.  I couldn’t look down because my arms were full bags and things. — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

Response:

I have posted many times.  Until you get your blood sugar under control you will probably have a progressive neuropathy problem. NO medication or gimmick ever had any real benefit. When I brought the blood sugar to under 150( peak value) on a 24-7 basis slowly the severe symptoms slowly started to abate.  Right now I have some hand burning because I am bouncing high once and a while. Need to tighten up on my eating schedule.  If you go out and eat a big meal then complain, you will get no sympathy from me.   The meter will tell the story. If it show a peak of say 300 after a meal what do you expect? You can’t talk your way out of diabetes.  Your system has  changed and you have to change to reduce the problems.   There is no instant help for neuropathy.  It takes time. In fact it may get worse when the nerves start to recover.  Like when you set on your legs too long. That is the way I see it, based on my experiences.                                   Guy Williams

Response:

Hi Gary. I’m a newbie here so you may want to ignore me, but here is my experiance. I was having a lot of trouble with my feet too. I was really getting worried about them. They just felt realy weird. (or didn’t feel?) Then, one morning I woke up and and I had the same thing with my hand. I was in the process of telling my doctor I wanted to change to Glucophage. I had been on Avandia for one year and then switched to Actos the next year.  That was when all my foot problems started. Got off Actos and onto Glucophage and bye bye foot problems. (Hello squirts. LOL) Frannie

Response:

Would like someone to try to describe the "pain" sensation with their neuropathy.With me it’s a concentrated burning across the top of each foot behind the toes.It was more pronounced(18 months -) prior to diagnosis and is certainly aggravated by ill-fitting shoes .It’s not unbearably painful like a toothache,headache for examples,and can be alleviated by soaking them in cold water for a few minutes. First became aware of  the numbness in all my fingers when my BG became critical(450  at diagnosis),but has since abated somewhat and  now includes ‘pins and needles’ and occasionally very sharp electrical-type jabs. Both feet and hands are worse in the evening,no problem at night and not too bad during day.

<snip As I said before, I do have other medical problems that cause pain.  So I am not entirely sure which problems relate to neuropathy.  But when I described these particular symptoms to the second neurologist I saw, he said they sounded like neuropathy.  Sometimes numbness or a pins and needles sensation.  More often there will be a crushing sensation.  Feels like someone with big strong hands has a hold of each foot and is squeezing it as hard as they can.  Sometimes my toes feel broken.  I have had broken toes, so I know that pain.  Sometimes it feels like I am walking on rocks or pebbles.  At the worst…imagine a big round, sort of flat stone.  The shape of it would be like a plain M & M…but much, much larger, like the diameter of a salad plate.  Now imagine that stone being stuck on the bottom of your foot and having to walk on it.  That is what it feels like at the worst. You not only feel the stone pressing up into your foot with each and every step, but you feel the weight of it dragging you down.  And because it is curved a bit on the bottom, you feel it throwing you off balance with every step.  And that pain doesn’t go away.  Even when you sit or lie down, that stone is still there. Sometimes I get crawling sensations up and down my legs.  Like I am covered with bugs or cobwebs. Sometimes there is a warm, fuzzy sensation.  Like I am wearing thick, heavy socks.  Sometimes my feet and legs are freezing and nothing will warm them up.  Sometimes I can’t wear socks or shoes because they feel like they are far too tight and are squeezing me.  I have had to buy huge clownish socks that I wear sometimes when things get really bad.  It is next to impossible to walk in them.  They are so large that they lump up under my feet or fly off because they contain no elastic.  I can’t put my shoes on when wearing them.  But my feet get cold.  And they are better than nothing.  Sometimes there is a burning sensation.  I am feeling that now.  Sometimes I will get strange little muscle cramps and spasms.  I have watched my toes jerk around this way and that on their own accord.  Or the back of my calves will tighten up and not loosen.  There have been times when all I could do was stand in an awkward position for a half an hour or so because the slightest little movement causes the cramps.  Can’t sit.  Can’t lie down.  Must stand and put all of my weight on the leg that is cramping.  I have had this happen when I’m in the bathroom and that is no fun!  Makes it difficult to use the toilet or get out of the bathtub if it happens in there. At night, I feel like I am blind.  I can see things, but they deceive me. The worst is stepping from light into shadow.  I can’t feel the ground beneath my feet.  It’s an overwhelming feeling.  I know the ground is there, and yet I feel like I will sink into a big pit and fall.  Must inch my way along…trying not to lift my feet and grabbing at anything and everything for support.  When I come to a curb or a step, I must tap along it with my foot…trying to feel for height or depth before I step down.  I do pretty well if I am holding someone’s hand when I walk.  That seems to give me more of a sense of balance.  Otherwise, I have to touch something down to the ground as I walk.  This might be my purse or the bottom of my daughter’s diaper bag.  If I can touch something to the ground every few steps, I do better.  I also have to constantly look at my feet.  Have to do this day and night.  People have laughed at me for doing it.  But if I don’t, I can and will fall.  At home, or places I go frequently, I don’t have to do this. But outside, or places I am unfamiliar with, I do.  I once fell in the hospital.  Was going out the door and there was about 1/2" different in the floor height between the foyer and the entrance to the hospital due to the difference of carpet there.  Just that little bit of difference sent me flying.  I stumbled and stumbled, trying to gain my balance.  I couldn’t look down because my arms were full bags and things. — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All, I’ve been reading this newsgroup for several months now and appreciate all of the good information.  I am a T2 for about three years and am currently using 3 kinds of pills to control my BG. I’ve had some neuropathy in my feet, almost since the beginning, but it comes and goes, and I can tolerate it.  About 6 weeks ago I got a "similar" feeling in my right hand (ring finger and little finger) and the side of my hand to the wrist.  I don’t have this feeling in my thumb or first two fingers. Unlike the neuropathy in my feet, this is constant – and does not change with my BG level or time.  My GP says it’s neuropathy and offers me no suggestions.  Do any of you have any experience like this? Thanks in advance. Gary Smith A1c = 7.6 and getting lower.

I have a similar problem, that occurred long before the neuropathy, although it isn’t as permanent as yours is described.  Mine usually lasts a day or two before going back to normal.  It’s caused by "shrinking nerves" in the arm due to increasing age.  There are two nerve bundles that run though the elbow in channels ether side of the point of your elbow.  Your "funny bones".  One of the nerves serves the little finger and the outside part of the next finger, the other serves the rest of the fingers.  When I sleep with my arm in a "chicken wing" position, all bent up, it stresses one or both of the nerves, with numbness in the appropriat part of the hand. They can surgically intervene and move the nerves out of the channels, but making it more likely that you’ll hit the nerves (that’s the reason for the channels, after all).  So you can sleep with your arm bent up, an risk more "stingers" when you bump your arm, or try sleeping differently, the option I took. —

Response:

Hello All, I’ve been reading this newsgroup for several months now and appreciate all of the good information.  I am a T2 for about three years and am currently using 3 kinds of pills to control my BG. I’ve had some neuropathy in my feet, almost since the beginning, but it comes and goes, and I can tolerate it.  About 6 weeks ago I got a "similar" feeling in my right hand (ring finger and little finger) and the side of my hand to the wrist.  I don’t have this feeling in my thumb or first two fingers. Unlike the neuropathy in my feet, this is constant – and does not change with my BG level or time.  My GP says it’s neuropathy and offers me no suggestions.  Do any of you have any experience like this? Thanks in advance. Gary Smith A1c = 7.6 and getting lower.

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I’ve had some neuropathy in my feet, almost since the beginning, but it comes and goes, and I can tolerate it.  About 6 weeks ago I got a "similar" feeling in my right hand (ring finger and little finger) and the side of my hand to the wrist.  I don’t have this feeling in my thumb or first two fingers. Unlike the neuropathy in my feet, this is constant – and does not change with my BG level or time.  My GP says it’s neuropathy and offers me no suggestions.  Do any of you have any experience like this?

I’m no expert but it could be "Cubital tunnel syndrome" where the ulnar nerve (that controls the pinky & ring finger) gets compressed in the elbow joint. From http://www.handsurgeon.com/cubital.html:  Early signs are numbness on the inside of the hand and in the ring and little fingers. Later there is weakness of the hand. There may be pain at the elbow. Tapping on the nerve as it passes through the cubital tunnel causes tingling or electric shock sensation down to the small finger. http://www.plasticsurgery4u.com/procedure_folder/cubital_tunnel.html also has some info. Beth

Response:

Hi I’m a type 1 diabetic for 3years and taking 40 units of insulin a day, occasionally I get pins and needles in my feet and hand, could this be a form of neuropathy or a lack of vitamins , my  A1c has always been 6.3. If this is nerve damage, do any herbal medication work? Any help will be appreciated Many thanks Walter

Response:

Walter, the "pins and needles" are an early sign.  Mine progressed to great pain in the entire legs.  The pain was bad enough to keep me from sleeping.  And it made walking for excersize difficult.   I have been taking several suppliments including: Oil of evening primrose…..supposed to help neuropathy extremities Horse Chesnut…..supposed to help circulation Bilberry…….supposed to help circulation, taken as a compound with ginko biloba and ginseng I also take glugosamine/condroiten for joint pain and am going to start on purple grape juice (6 oz per day) also good for circulation and supposed to reduce cholesterol. Wish I could find some sugar free grape juice.  8-) Since I have been taking the suppliments (about a month) the pain has dropped about 90%.  Yeah I know about placebo effect.   The pain reduction is real for me.  YMMV.    The only warning on any of the suppliments is for people with liver problems.  The cost is not high, lots less than my prescriptions.  I’ve heard that good effects can take a couple of months to show but mine started fairly quickly.   This stuff should be available in most any drug store.  Shop around for the best prices.  There is a -lot- of difference in prices depending on brand and where you get them.  The health food places seem to be the highest cost.  Discount drug stores seem to be a lot cheaper. Good luck  Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi I’m a type 1 diabetic for 3years and taking 40 units of insulin a day, occasionally I get pins and needles in my feet and hand, could this be a form of neuropathy or a lack of vitamins , my  A1c has always been 6.3. If this is nerve damage, do any herbal medication work? Any help will be appreciated Many thanks Walter

Response:

Gary:    Thank you for your most informative post.   I have a similar problem and wonder if the Primrose might be effective for me also.  I get very sharp dagger-like pain in my toes that might last for up to 10 seconds.  I don’t think an actual ice pick could hurt any worse! Yes, I am diabetic and require 40 units of insulin daily.  Your thoughts? Regards, Richard H. Walter, the "pins and needles" are an early sign.  Mine progressed to great pain in the entire legs.  The pain was bad enough to keep me from sleeping.  And it made walking for excersize difficult.   I have been taking several suppliments including: Oil of evening primrose…..supposed to help neuropathy extremities Horse Chesnut…..supposed to help circulation Bilberry…….supposed to help circulation, taken as a compound with ginko biloba and ginseng

-<cut-

Response:

Oh yeah, the icepicks.  Ain’t they fun.  Mine declined with the overall pain in my legs.  I have added garlic to my personal pharmacy.  It too is supposed to help circulation.  I was told today that the grape juice can be replaced with a grape extract which contains the skin where the flavinoids are found.  I saw grape seed extract at the drug store but I dont think that’s what I want.   I intend to try anything that might help the circulation but I am wary of the outfits that claim their high priced concoctions will cure anything.  One thing about the primrose is that it might make the pain worse for a while as it’s supposed to restore nerve function. Dead nerves feel no pain.  I’d rather have mine working though.   Being a type II I don’t need much insulin except when I goof on my diet.  Good luck with your search for relief.   73  Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gary:    Thank you for your most informative post.   I have a similar problem and wonder if the Primrose might be effective for me also.  I get very sharp dagger-like pain in my toes that might last for up to 10 seconds.  I don’t think an actual ice pick could hurt any worse! Yes, I am diabetic and require 40 units of insulin daily.  Your thoughts? Regards, Richard H. Walter, the "pins and needles" are an early sign.  Mine progressed to great pain in the entire legs.  The pain was bad enough to keep me from sleeping.  And it made walking for excersize difficult.   I have been taking several suppliments including: Oil of evening primrose…..supposed to help neuropathy extremities Horse Chesnut…..supposed to help circulation Bilberry…….supposed to help circulation, taken as a compound with ginko biloba and ginseng -<cut-

Response:

Thanks Gary for the information, I don’t like the idea of ice-pick pain that Richard posted. Does all diabetic get this pain so early, I alway been in good control and my circulation is good. (I think?)

Response:

I only have my experiance and what I read on these support groups but I believe the "ice pick pain" is pretty common. Luckily it is ,for me at least, of short duration.  Ever get one at the back of your eye? Now that hurts!  Hope you don’t get it.   73  Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks Gary for the information, I don’t like the idea of ice-pick pain that Richard posted. Does all diabetic get this pain so early, I alway been in good control and my circulation is good. (I think?)

Response:

Gary:     Please not the eye!!   Not sure I could handle that and remain sane (or drug free).  I already suffer from cluster headaches (not related to diabetes), very familiar with severe head pain. Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I only have my experiance and what I read on these support groups but I believe the "ice pick pain" is pretty common. Luckily it is ,for me at least, of short duration.  Ever get one at the back of your eye? Now that hurts!  Hope you don’t get it.   73  Gary Thanks Gary for the information, I don’t like the idea of ice-pick pain that Richard posted. Does all diabetic get this pain so early, I alway been in good control and my circulation is good. (I think?)

Response:

Richard, sorry I didn’t mean to frighten you.  Just because I get them on rare occasions does -not- mean you ever will.  They only last a few seconds.  The best answer to most all diabetis related problems is to keep your bg readings in the normal range.  Eat right and get plenty of excersize.  Via Con Dios friend. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gary:     Please not the eye!!   Not sure I could handle that and remain sane (or drug free).  I already suffer from cluster headaches (not related to diabetes), very familiar with severe head pain. Richard I only have my experiance and what I read on these support groups but I believe the "ice pick pain" is pretty common. Luckily it is ,for me at least, of short duration.  Ever get one at the back of your eye? Now that hurts!  Hope you don’t get it.   73  Gary Thanks Gary for the information, I don’t like the idea of ice-pick pain that Richard posted. Does all diabetic get this pain so early, I alway been in good control and my circulation is good. (I think?)

Response:

Question:

I truly believe that the myth of weight gain and that quitting is impossible is promoted by the cigarette companies and drug companies.  I know it’s hard to quit, but I am sure I am not the only person in the world that has been surprised that it was not as hard as I thought it would be.  I also only gained initially about 5 lbs. from substituting candy for the cigs.  I have now lost that mostly from having increased energy to do more physical things than I was able to before. In short…what you believe has a lot of control over what happens to you. If you think you will gain weight, you will.  If you believe it’s temporary, it is.  If you believe you can quit, you can. Theresa One month, one week, four days, 42 minutes and 1 second. 780 cigarettes not smoked, saving $78.06. Life saved: 2 days, 17 hours, 0 minutes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it true that smoking increases your metabolism and that’s why once you quit, you gain weight?  Or is it just that you tend to snack more instead of smoking that leads to the weight gain. But I think I read somewhere that smoking actually increases the appetite and you end up eating more when smoking than not? Which is true?

Response:

BULLSHIT!!!  hahahhaha Tell THAT to my scale that cringes everytime I step on it! Bren Seven months, one week, six days, 1 hour, 45 minutes and 56 seconds. 3376 cigarettes not smoked, saving $484.56. Life saved: 1 week, 4 days, 17 hours, 20 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You might gain 3 to 5 pounds due to water retention during the first week after quitting.

Response:

BULLSHIT!!!  hahahhaha Tell THAT to my scale that cringes everytime I step on it!

Must admit, I put on over a stone since New Year, after being the same weight for the last 10 years. Lemming — Curiosity *may* have killed Schrodinger’s cat.

Response:

and this should be the last one… it’s to show that weight gain or not, you can do it and without too much damage… Smoking will always be more damagable then an extra 8 pounds ! (6/2/00 HeartInfo)  - Do you want to stop smoking but are afraid of weight gain? You might have heard horror stories of people gaining 25 pounds or more when they stop smoking, but consider these facts: The average weight gain after smoking cessation is 5-8 pounds. A gain of 75 pounds is necessary to equal the health risk of continued smoking. Most people who gain weight after smoking cessation gradually lose the excess weight within 2-5 years. Why stop smoking? According to the 1990 Surgeon General’s Report, "The Health Benefits of Smoking Cessation", smoking leads to an increased risk of coronary heart disease and repeat heart attacks. Stopping smoking can reduce risk of death from heart disease by at least 50%. Smoking contributes to the formation of clots that can cause stroke or heart attack, and can lead to atherosclerosis, or plaque in the walls of arteries. What causes the weight gain? A number of factors contribute to weight gain after smoking cessation: increased sense of smell and taste, decreased metabolic rate, and increased hunger. Leptin, a protein that plays a role in appetite regulation, may also help decrease body weight in smokers. Although high levels of leptin are typically associated with lower body weight, in smokers the opposite appears to be true due to nicotine-induced modifications in leptin receptor sensitivity. Tips to avoid weight gain The primary reason for weight gain after smoking cessation is snacking followed closely by replacing the urge to smoke with eating high calorie foods. Follow these tips to stop smoking without gaining excess weight: Use toothpicks or sugar-free gum to satisfy the urge to put something in your mouth. If you usually smoke during dessert, leave the table and go to another room to break the association between eating dessert (or drinking coffee) and smoking. Choose high fiber, low calorie foods when snacking: raw vegetables, pretzels, or fresh fruit are good choices. Use regular exercise to help decrease nicotine cravings and reduce stress levels, as well as boost your metabolism and burn calories. Increase water intake instead of snacking. Learn relaxation techniques to replace smoking when under stress, such as deep breathing, yoga, or visualization. Try low-fat, low-calorie recipes to satisfy your newly awakened taste buds. Nutrition status of smokers The nicotine in cigarettes causes damage to our body, but smokers also tend to have diets low in a number of essential nutrients. The 1994-1996 Continuing Survey of Food Intakes by Individuals (CSFII) looked at the food intake records of more than 6700 adults and noted a decreased intake of fruits and vegetables in smokers, causing low levels of antioxidants. The 1994-1995 National Diet and Nutrition Survey in mainland Britain also noted decreased levels of antioxidants, as well as lower folate intake in smokers. Finally, an analysis of 51 nutrition surveys from 15 countries examined 47,250 nonsmokers and 35,870 smokers. Smokers had an increased intake of calories, total fat, saturated fat, cholesterol and alcohol. They also had a decreased intake of fiber, beta-carotene, and vitamins C and E. What does this tell us? Smokers typically eat fewer fruits and vegetables, primary providers of antioxidants that protect our bodies from chronic disease and toxins such as nicotine. They also have a low intake of folate, a vitamin that helps reduce the risk of heart disease by keeping homocysteine levels in check. Smokers also have higher intakes of nutrients that increase risk of heart disease: total fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol. And their lower intake of fiber can also increase the risk of heart disease. The bottom line: if the nicotine doesn’t get you, the poor dietary intake probably will. To boost your overall nutrition try these tips: Increase your consumption of all fruits and vegetables. Focus on eating at least two daily servings of foods high in vitamin C: citrus fruit, potatoes, green peppers, and tomatoes are good sources. Include high fiber foods such as whole grain cereal, brown rice, legumes, and fruits and vegetables with skins in your daily food choices. Choose foods high in folate on a regular basis: orange juice (also a good sourse of vitamin C), legumes (also high in fiber), and dark green leafy vegetables such as spinach, kale and broccoli (also high in fiber and antioxidants). Limit fat intake, especially saturated fat, from such foods as sour cream, whole milk dairy products, cheese, animal fats, and fried foods. Take a daily multivitamin/mineral supplement for extra insurance. Sources "Body mass decrease after initial gain following smoking cessation". Mizoue T, Ueda R, Tokui N, Hino Y, Yoshimura T. Int J Epidemiol 1998 Dec;27(6):984-8 "Eating orientation, postcessation weight gain, and continued abstinence among female smokers receiving an unsolicited smoking cessation intervention". Hudmon KS, Gritz ER, Clayton S, Nisenbaum R. Health Psychol 1999 Jan;18(1):29-36 "Smoking cessation and weight gain". Froom P, Melamed S, Benbassat J. J Fam Pract 1998 Jun;46(6):460-4 "Is leptin sensitivity the link between smoking cessation and weight gain"? Hodge AM, Westerman RA, de Courten MP, Collier GR, Zimmet PZ, Alberti KG. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1997 Jan;21(1):50-3 "Antioxidant intakes and smoking status: data from the continuing survey of food intakes by individuals". 1994-1996. Ma J, Hampl JS, Betts NM. Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Mar;71(3):774-80 "Ascorbate is depleted by smoking and repleted by moderate supplementation: a study in male smokers and nonsmokers with matched dietary antioxidant intakes". Lykkesfeldt J, Christen S, Wallock LM, Chang HH, Jacob RA, Ames BN. Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Feb;71(2):530-6 "Cigarette smoking is associated with unhealthy patterns of nutrient intake: a meta-analysis." Dallongeville J, Marecaux N, Fruchart JC, Amouyel P "Smoking Cessation", American Heart Association, 2000. http://www.americanheart.org/Heart_and_Stroke_A_Z_Guide/smokecp.html — "WORK TO LIVE,             ,_~o          Don’t be a fossil fool!     LIVE TO BIKE,        _-_<,      *The tree huggin’ Druid*            BIKE TO WORK"(*)/’(*) Elyse    __o           __o          __o          __o          __o  _`<,_        _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_ (_)/ (_)      (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_) * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * *

Response:

Smoking actually will cause extra fat to accumulate on the abdomen and/or the belly1. 1 Lissner, L., Benbtsson, C., Lapidus, L., Bjorkelund, C.,1992. Smoking Initiation and Cessation in Relation to Body Fat Distribution Based on Data from a Study of Swedish Women. American Journal of Public Health. Vol. 82 (2) pp. 273-275). Say it isn’t so.  My belly that was my obsession for all those years. NICO RELATED. Well i’ll be damn.  No more sit ups for me, this quitting will do it all ! — "WORK TO LIVE,             ,_~o          Don’t be a fossil fool!     LIVE TO BIKE,        _-_<,      *The tree huggin’ Druid*            BIKE TO WORK"(*)/’(*) Elyse    __o           __o          __o          __o          __o  _`<,_        _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_ (_)/ (_)      (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_) * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * *

Response:

What causes weight gain after quitting? When nicotine, a chemical in cigarette smoke, leaves your body, you may experience: Short-term weight gain. The nicotine kept your body weight low, and when you quit smoking, your body returns to the weight it would have been had you never smoked. You might gain 3 to 5 pounds due to water retention during the first week after quitting. A need for fewer calories. After you stop smoking, you may use fewer calories than when you were smoking. Will this weight gain hurt my health? The health risks of smoking are far greater than the risks of gaining 5 to 10 pounds. Smoking causes more than 400,000 deaths each year in the United States. You would have to gain about 100 to 150 pounds after quitting to make your health risks as high as when you smoked. The health risks of smoking and the benefits of quitting are listed below. To avoid gaining weight when you quit smoking, you need to become more physically active and improve your eating habits before  you stop. Physical activity helps to control your weight by increasing the number of calories your body uses. Making healthy changes to your eating habits will prevent weight gain by controlling the amount of calories you eat. Try to reduce your chances of gaining weight by being more physically active and improving your eating habits before you stop smoking. Become More Physically Active. Becoming physically active is a healthy way to control your weight and take your mind off smoking. In one study, women who stopped smoking and added 45 minutes of walking a day gained less than 3 pounds. In addition to helping control your weight, exercise increases your energy, promotes self-confidence, improves your health, and may help relieve the stress and depression caused by the lack of nicotine in your body. You can become more physically active by spending less time doing activities that use little energy, like watching television and playing video games, and spending more time doing physical activities. Try to do at least 30 minutes of physical activity a day on most days of the week. The activity does not have to be done all at once. It can be done in short spurts — 10 minutes here, 20 minute there — as long as it adds up to 30 minutes a day. Simple ways to become more physically active include gardening, housework, mowing the lawn, playing actively with children, and taking the stairs instead of the elevator. See the Weight- control Information Network’s (WIN) fact sheet Physical Activity and Weight Control for more information. Improve Your Eating Habits. Try to gradually improve your eating habits. Changing your eating habits too quickly can add to the stress you may feel as you try to quit smoking. Eating a variety of foods is a good way to improve your health. To make sure you get all of the nutrients needed for good health, choose a variety of foods from each group in the Food Guide Pyramid (pictured below) each day. The Nutrition Facts Label that is found on most processed food products can also help you select foods that meet your daily nutritional needs. For a healthy diet, use the Pyramid to guide your daily food choices and make sure you: Eat plenty of grain products, vegetables, and fruits. Choose lean and lowfat foods and low-calorie beverages most often. Choose lowfat dairy products, lean meats, fish, poultry, and dry beans to get the nutrients you need without extra calories and fat. Choose less often foods high in fat and sugars and low in nutrients. — "WORK TO LIVE,             ,_~o          Don’t be a fossil fool!     LIVE TO BIKE,        _-_<,      *The tree huggin’ Druid*            BIKE TO WORK"(*)/’(*) Elyse    __o           __o          __o          __o          __o  _`<,_        _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_ (_)/ (_)      (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_) * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * *

Response:

 [Reuters] Smoking boosts energy expenditure NEW YORK, Dec 27 (Reuters Health) – Many smokers believe that kicking the habit goes hand in hand with subsequent weight gain. Now, scientific evidence appears to support the claim and provide a possible reason. According to a report in Nicotine & Tobacco Research, Dr. Peter Rowell and others at the University of Louisville, Kentucky, found that the body apparently uses more energy during light physical activity if a person is also smoking. Ex-smokers may need to increase their physical activity levels in order to use the same number of calories once burned during smoking, the research team suggests. In a study of 10 men, the researchers evaluated the effects of smoking on energy expenditures during rest and while riding stationary bicycles at a moderate pace. Smoking increased energy expenditure by 3.6% at rest and by 6.3% during physical activity. "The increase in energy expenditure was 75% higher when smoking during light physical activity," Rowell and colleagues point out. But when the investigators took into account the smokers’ nicotine levels, the increase in energy expenditure no longer differed significantly according to whether smoking was done at rest or while active. "That result suggests that increases in nicotine levels during physical activity are responsible for the increase in energy consumption observed," Rowell’s group says in a university news release. The authors note several important limitations of the study. "First, only male smokers were evaluated (and) there is research to suggest that there are gender differences in the response to the effects of nicotine or smoking," they explain. And "although the workload was modest, it is possible that accumulated fatigue could help explain the greater energy expenditure observed after smoking during activity." — "WORK TO LIVE,             ,_~o          Don’t be a fossil fool!     LIVE TO BIKE,        _-_<,      *The tree huggin’ Druid*            BIKE TO WORK"(*)/’(*) Elyse    __o           __o          __o          __o          __o  _`<,_        _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_ (_)/ (_)      (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_) * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * *

Response:

Is it true that smoking increases your metabolism and that’s why once you quit, you gain weight?  Or is it just that you tend to snack more instead of smoking that leads to the weight gain. But I think I read somewhere that smoking actually increases the appetite and you end up eating more when smoking than not? Which is true?

Response:

Weight gain comes from replacing smoking with eating. This happens because smoking suppressed appetite and eating suppresses smoking urges – two distinct forces of habit you must struggle with. Instead of lighting up near the end of a meal you go on eating and a cookie can be substituted for a cigarette. As far as matabolism is concerned, as many overweight people smoke as people in general. The "increased metabolism" idea is nicotine junky jive. Hoping you make it, Jw Flower – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it true that smoking increases your metabolism and that’s why once you quit, you gain weight?  Or is it just that you tend to snack more instead of smoking that leads to the weight gain. But I think I read somewhere that smoking actually increases the appetite and you end up eating more when smoking than not? Which is true?

Response:

I am sorry to have to say that this is not nicotine user jive.  Smoking is not good for your health and it does make some stuff work more: you produce more salive, it puts guk all over your body that it has to clean up and thus consuming more energy.  I think it’s around 200 calories a day, around a candy bar I guess ! Otoh, yup, we eat more because of the cravings for some kind of happiness chemical that our brain stopped producing when we started smoking , then forgot to produce with the years (nicotine and shit in smokes replaces this chemical) thus the craving for the cigarette and the depression because of lack of. I will give you an update on this and go fetch for the medical sources ! But this is not a reason to smoke.  Add up all the lost time with cigarettes, exercice with it and I promise that you’ll have a body to die for.  I PROMISE ! 7 minutes times 20 cigarettes a day, that’s 140 minutes, ahem, more than 2 hours a day… and instead of ruining your body to spend your calories, you’ll work out a handsome one.  Overweight people who smoke would benefit twice of this strategy, once over the quitting period (god knows i’m depressed right now ARGH- don’T come near me i’Ll snap !!!) ELyse 3w3d – slip not included… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Weight gain comes from replacing smoking with eating. This happens because smoking suppressed appetite and eating suppresses smoking urges – two distinct forces of habit you must struggle with. Instead of lighting up near the end of a meal you go on eating and a cookie can be substituted for a cigarette. As far as matabolism is concerned, as many overweight people smoke as people in general. The "increased metabolism" idea is nicotine junky jive. Hoping you make it, Jw Flower Is it true that smoking increases your metabolism and that’s why once you quit, you gain weight?  Or is it just that you tend to snack more instead of smoking that leads to the weight gain. But I think I read somewhere that smoking actually increases the appetite and you end up eating more when smoking than not? Which is true?

– "WORK TO LIVE,             ,_~o          Don’t be a fossil fool!     LIVE TO BIKE,        _-_<,      *The tree huggin’ Druid*            BIKE TO WORK"(*)/’(*) Elyse    __o           __o          __o          __o          __o  _`<,_        _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_ (_)/ (_)      (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_) * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * *

Response:

Is it true that smoking increases your metabolism and that’s why once you quit, you gain weight?  Or is it just that you tend to snack more instead of smoking that leads to the weight gain. But I think I read somewhere that smoking actually increases the appetite and you end up eating more when smoking than not? Which is true?

Response:

Weight gain comes from replacing smoking with eating. This happens because smoking suppressed appetite and eating suppresses smoking urges – two distinct forces of habit you must struggle with. Instead of lighting up near the end of a meal you go on eating and a cookie can be substituted for a cigarette. As far as matabolism is concerned, as many overweight people smoke as people in general. The "increased metabolism" idea is nicotine junky jive. Hoping you make it, Jw Flower – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it true that smoking increases your metabolism and that’s why once you quit, you gain weight?  Or is it just that you tend to snack more instead of smoking that leads to the weight gain. But I think I read somewhere that smoking actually increases the appetite and you end up eating more when smoking than not? Which is true?

Response:

I am sorry to have to say that this is not nicotine user jive.  Smoking is not good for your health and it does make some stuff work more: you produce more salive, it puts guk all over your body that it has to clean up and thus consuming more energy.  I think it’s around 200 calories a day, around a candy bar I guess ! Otoh, yup, we eat more because of the cravings for some kind of happiness chemical that our brain stopped producing when we started smoking , then forgot to produce with the years (nicotine and shit in smokes replaces this chemical) thus the craving for the cigarette and the depression because of lack of. I will give you an update on this and go fetch for the medical sources ! But this is not a reason to smoke.  Add up all the lost time with cigarettes, exercice with it and I promise that you’ll have a body to die for.  I PROMISE ! 7 minutes times 20 cigarettes a day, that’s 140 minutes, ahem, more than 2 hours a day… and instead of ruining your body to spend your calories, you’ll work out a handsome one.  Overweight people who smoke would benefit twice of this strategy, once over the quitting period (god knows i’m depressed right now ARGH- don’T come near me i’Ll snap !!!) ELyse 3w3d – slip not included… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Weight gain comes from replacing smoking with eating. This happens because smoking suppressed appetite and eating suppresses smoking urges – two distinct forces of habit you must struggle with. Instead of lighting up near the end of a meal you go on eating and a cookie can be substituted for a cigarette. As far as matabolism is concerned, as many overweight people smoke as people in general. The "increased metabolism" idea is nicotine junky jive. Hoping you make it, Jw Flower Is it true that smoking increases your metabolism and that’s why once you quit, you gain weight?  Or is it just that you tend to snack more instead of smoking that leads to the weight gain. But I think I read somewhere that smoking actually increases the appetite and you end up eating more when smoking than not? Which is true?

– "WORK TO LIVE,             ,_~o          Don’t be a fossil fool!     LIVE TO BIKE,        _-_<,      *The tree huggin’ Druid*            BIKE TO WORK"(*)/’(*) Elyse    __o           __o          __o          __o          __o  _`<,_        _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_ (_)/ (_)      (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_) * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * *

Response:

 [Reuters] Smoking boosts energy expenditure NEW YORK, Dec 27 (Reuters Health) – Many smokers believe that kicking the habit goes hand in hand with subsequent weight gain. Now, scientific evidence appears to support the claim and provide a possible reason. According to a report in Nicotine & Tobacco Research, Dr. Peter Rowell and others at the University of Louisville, Kentucky, found that the body apparently uses more energy during light physical activity if a person is also smoking. Ex-smokers may need to increase their physical activity levels in order to use the same number of calories once burned during smoking, the research team suggests. In a study of 10 men, the researchers evaluated the effects of smoking on energy expenditures during rest and while riding stationary bicycles at a moderate pace. Smoking increased energy expenditure by 3.6% at rest and by 6.3% during physical activity. "The increase in energy expenditure was 75% higher when smoking during light physical activity," Rowell and colleagues point out. But when the investigators took into account the smokers’ nicotine levels, the increase in energy expenditure no longer differed significantly according to whether smoking was done at rest or while active. "That result suggests that increases in nicotine levels during physical activity are responsible for the increase in energy consumption observed," Rowell’s group says in a university news release. The authors note several important limitations of the study. "First, only male smokers were evaluated (and) there is research to suggest that there are gender differences in the response to the effects of nicotine or smoking," they explain. And "although the workload was modest, it is possible that accumulated fatigue could help explain the greater energy expenditure observed after smoking during activity." — "WORK TO LIVE,             ,_~o          Don’t be a fossil fool!     LIVE TO BIKE,        _-_<,      *The tree huggin’ Druid*            BIKE TO WORK"(*)/’(*) Elyse    __o           __o          __o          __o          __o  _`<,_        _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_ (_)/ (_)      (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_) * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * *

Response:

What causes weight gain after quitting? When nicotine, a chemical in cigarette smoke, leaves your body, you may experience: Short-term weight gain. The nicotine kept your body weight low, and when you quit smoking, your body returns to the weight it would have been had you never smoked. You might gain 3 to 5 pounds due to water retention during the first week after quitting. A need for fewer calories. After you stop smoking, you may use fewer calories than when you were smoking. Will this weight gain hurt my health? The health risks of smoking are far greater than the risks of gaining 5 to 10 pounds. Smoking causes more than 400,000 deaths each year in the United States. You would have to gain about 100 to 150 pounds after quitting to make your health risks as high as when you smoked. The health risks of smoking and the benefits of quitting are listed below. To avoid gaining weight when you quit smoking, you need to become more physically active and improve your eating habits before  you stop. Physical activity helps to control your weight by increasing the number of calories your body uses. Making healthy changes to your eating habits will prevent weight gain by controlling the amount of calories you eat. Try to reduce your chances of gaining weight by being more physically active and improving your eating habits before you stop smoking. Become More Physically Active. Becoming physically active is a healthy way to control your weight and take your mind off smoking. In one study, women who stopped smoking and added 45 minutes of walking a day gained less than 3 pounds. In addition to helping control your weight, exercise increases your energy, promotes self-confidence, improves your health, and may help relieve the stress and depression caused by the lack of nicotine in your body. You can become more physically active by spending less time doing activities that use little energy, like watching television and playing video games, and spending more time doing physical activities. Try to do at least 30 minutes of physical activity a day on most days of the week. The activity does not have to be done all at once. It can be done in short spurts — 10 minutes here, 20 minute there — as long as it adds up to 30 minutes a day. Simple ways to become more physically active include gardening, housework, mowing the lawn, playing actively with children, and taking the stairs instead of the elevator. See the Weight- control Information Network’s (WIN) fact sheet Physical Activity and Weight Control for more information. Improve Your Eating Habits. Try to gradually improve your eating habits. Changing your eating habits too quickly can add to the stress you may feel as you try to quit smoking. Eating a variety of foods is a good way to improve your health. To make sure you get all of the nutrients needed for good health, choose a variety of foods from each group in the Food Guide Pyramid (pictured below) each day. The Nutrition Facts Label that is found on most processed food products can also help you select foods that meet your daily nutritional needs. For a healthy diet, use the Pyramid to guide your daily food choices and make sure you: Eat plenty of grain products, vegetables, and fruits. Choose lean and lowfat foods and low-calorie beverages most often. Choose lowfat dairy products, lean meats, fish, poultry, and dry beans to get the nutrients you need without extra calories and fat. Choose less often foods high in fat and sugars and low in nutrients. — "WORK TO LIVE,             ,_~o          Don’t be a fossil fool!     LIVE TO BIKE,        _-_<,      *The tree huggin’ Druid*            BIKE TO WORK"(*)/’(*) Elyse    __o           __o          __o          __o          __o  _`<,_        _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_ (_)/ (_)      (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_) * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * *

Response:

Smoking actually will cause extra fat to accumulate on the abdomen and/or the belly1. 1 Lissner, L., Benbtsson, C., Lapidus, L., Bjorkelund, C.,1992. Smoking Initiation and Cessation in Relation to Body Fat Distribution Based on Data from a Study of Swedish Women. American Journal of Public Health. Vol. 82 (2) pp. 273-275). Say it isn’t so.  My belly that was my obsession for all those years. NICO RELATED. Well i’ll be damn.  No more sit ups for me, this quitting will do it all ! — "WORK TO LIVE,             ,_~o          Don’t be a fossil fool!     LIVE TO BIKE,        _-_<,      *The tree huggin’ Druid*            BIKE TO WORK"(*)/’(*) Elyse    __o           __o          __o          __o          __o  _`<,_        _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_ (_)/ (_)      (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_) * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * *

Response:

and this should be the last one… it’s to show that weight gain or not, you can do it and without too much damage… Smoking will always be more damagable then an extra 8 pounds ! (6/2/00 HeartInfo)  - Do you want to stop smoking but are afraid of weight gain? You might have heard horror stories of people gaining 25 pounds or more when they stop smoking, but consider these facts: The average weight gain after smoking cessation is 5-8 pounds. A gain of 75 pounds is necessary to equal the health risk of continued smoking. Most people who gain weight after smoking cessation gradually lose the excess weight within 2-5 years. Why stop smoking? According to the 1990 Surgeon General’s Report, "The Health Benefits of Smoking Cessation", smoking leads to an increased risk of coronary heart disease and repeat heart attacks. Stopping smoking can reduce risk of death from heart disease by at least 50%. Smoking contributes to the formation of clots that can cause stroke or heart attack, and can lead to atherosclerosis, or plaque in the walls of arteries. What causes the weight gain? A number of factors contribute to weight gain after smoking cessation: increased sense of smell and taste, decreased metabolic rate, and increased hunger. Leptin, a protein that plays a role in appetite regulation, may also help decrease body weight in smokers. Although high levels of leptin are typically associated with lower body weight, in smokers the opposite appears to be true due to nicotine-induced modifications in leptin receptor sensitivity. Tips to avoid weight gain The primary reason for weight gain after smoking cessation is snacking followed closely by replacing the urge to smoke with eating high calorie foods. Follow these tips to stop smoking without gaining excess weight: Use toothpicks or sugar-free gum to satisfy the urge to put something in your mouth. If you usually smoke during dessert, leave the table and go to another room to break the association between eating dessert (or drinking coffee) and smoking. Choose high fiber, low calorie foods when snacking: raw vegetables, pretzels, or fresh fruit are good choices. Use regular exercise to help decrease nicotine cravings and reduce stress levels, as well as boost your metabolism and burn calories. Increase water intake instead of snacking. Learn relaxation techniques to replace smoking when under stress, such as deep breathing, yoga, or visualization. Try low-fat, low-calorie recipes to satisfy your newly awakened taste buds. Nutrition status of smokers The nicotine in cigarettes causes damage to our body, but smokers also tend to have diets low in a number of essential nutrients. The 1994-1996 Continuing Survey of Food Intakes by Individuals (CSFII) looked at the food intake records of more than 6700 adults and noted a decreased intake of fruits and vegetables in smokers, causing low levels of antioxidants. The 1994-1995 National Diet and Nutrition Survey in mainland Britain also noted decreased levels of antioxidants, as well as lower folate intake in smokers. Finally, an analysis of 51 nutrition surveys from 15 countries examined 47,250 nonsmokers and 35,870 smokers. Smokers had an increased intake of calories, total fat, saturated fat, cholesterol and alcohol. They also had a decreased intake of fiber, beta-carotene, and vitamins C and E. What does this tell us? Smokers typically eat fewer fruits and vegetables, primary providers of antioxidants that protect our bodies from chronic disease and toxins such as nicotine. They also have a low intake of folate, a vitamin that helps reduce the risk of heart disease by keeping homocysteine levels in check. Smokers also have higher intakes of nutrients that increase risk of heart disease: total fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol. And their lower intake of fiber can also increase the risk of heart disease. The bottom line: if the nicotine doesn’t get you, the poor dietary intake probably will. To boost your overall nutrition try these tips: Increase your consumption of all fruits and vegetables. Focus on eating at least two daily servings of foods high in vitamin C: citrus fruit, potatoes, green peppers, and tomatoes are good sources. Include high fiber foods such as whole grain cereal, brown rice, legumes, and fruits and vegetables with skins in your daily food choices. Choose foods high in folate on a regular basis: orange juice (also a good sourse of vitamin C), legumes (also high in fiber), and dark green leafy vegetables such as spinach, kale and broccoli (also high in fiber and antioxidants). Limit fat intake, especially saturated fat, from such foods as sour cream, whole milk dairy products, cheese, animal fats, and fried foods. Take a daily multivitamin/mineral supplement for extra insurance. Sources "Body mass decrease after initial gain following smoking cessation". Mizoue T, Ueda R, Tokui N, Hino Y, Yoshimura T. Int J Epidemiol 1998 Dec;27(6):984-8 "Eating orientation, postcessation weight gain, and continued abstinence among female smokers receiving an unsolicited smoking cessation intervention". Hudmon KS, Gritz ER, Clayton S, Nisenbaum R. Health Psychol 1999 Jan;18(1):29-36 "Smoking cessation and weight gain". Froom P, Melamed S, Benbassat J. J Fam Pract 1998 Jun;46(6):460-4 "Is leptin sensitivity the link between smoking cessation and weight gain"? Hodge AM, Westerman RA, de Courten MP, Collier GR, Zimmet PZ, Alberti KG. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1997 Jan;21(1):50-3 "Antioxidant intakes and smoking status: data from the continuing survey of food intakes by individuals". 1994-1996. Ma J, Hampl JS, Betts NM. Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Mar;71(3):774-80 "Ascorbate is depleted by smoking and repleted by moderate supplementation: a study in male smokers and nonsmokers with matched dietary antioxidant intakes". Lykkesfeldt J, Christen S, Wallock LM, Chang HH, Jacob RA, Ames BN. Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Feb;71(2):530-6 "Cigarette smoking is associated with unhealthy patterns of nutrient intake: a meta-analysis." Dallongeville J, Marecaux N, Fruchart JC, Amouyel P "Smoking Cessation", American Heart Association, 2000. http://www.americanheart.org/Heart_and_Stroke_A_Z_Guide/smokecp.html — "WORK TO LIVE,             ,_~o          Don’t be a fossil fool!     LIVE TO BIKE,        _-_<,      *The tree huggin’ Druid*            BIKE TO WORK"(*)/’(*) Elyse    __o           __o          __o          __o          __o  _`<,_        _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_       _`<,_ (_)/ (_)      (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_)     (_)/ (_) * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * *

Response:

I truly believe that the myth of weight gain and that quitting is impossible is promoted by the cigarette companies and drug companies.  I know it’s hard to quit, but I am sure I am not the only person in the world that has been surprised that it was not as hard as I thought it would be.  I also only gained initially about 5 lbs. from substituting candy for the cigs.  I have now lost that mostly from having increased energy to do more physical things than I was able to before. In short…what you believe has a lot of control over what happens to you. If you think you will gain weight, you will.  If you believe it’s temporary, it is.  If you believe you can quit, you can. Theresa One month, one week, four days, 42 minutes and 1 second. 780 cigarettes not smoked, saving $78.06. Life saved: 2 days, 17 hours, 0 minutes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it true that smoking increases your metabolism and that’s why once you quit, you gain weight?  Or is it just that you tend to snack more instead of smoking that leads to the weight gain. But I think I read somewhere that smoking actually increases the appetite and you end up eating more when smoking than not? Which is true?

Response:

BULLSHIT!!!  hahahhaha Tell THAT to my scale that cringes everytime I step on it! Bren Seven months, one week, six days, 1 hour, 45 minutes and 56 seconds. 3376 cigarettes not smoked, saving $484.56. Life saved: 1 week, 4 days, 17 hours, 20 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You might gain 3 to 5 pounds due to water retention during the first week after quitting.

Response:

BULLSHIT!!!  hahahhaha Tell THAT to my scale that cringes everytime I step on it!

Must admit, I put on over a stone since New Year, after being the same weight for the last 10 years. Lemming — Curiosity *may* have killed Schrodinger’s cat.

Response:

Question:

<ti…@cheerful.com

wrote Er…Silver???? You are describing some forms of yoga here even if you’re not calling it that or using formal "poses"

*smile*  I suppose I am ….. it’s just that my "breathing exercises" are my own invention, based on a mish-mash of half understood theories from a wide variety of disciplines, and all flung together into a little regime where I move my body about a bit and breathe deeply.  To call it "yoga" seemed to me to be a little pretentious on my part  :-) I’ve been meaning to go to a few *proper* yoga lessons in order to try and tighten up my own routines ….. but I’ve been saying that for almost a year now …… Silver

Response:

"c lindau" <clin…@uswest.net

wrote Silver wrote: Although I don’t think it really qualifies as "proper" exercise, oh my gosh….I had my weekly class this morning and we worked on backbends. It really *is* proper exercise. You should be in that room during the summer–peeyew!  ;-)

Oooops  :-)   I meant that *my breathing exercises* couldn’t qualify as "proper exercise" !!!   I had a brief fling with yoga many years ago and thought it was bloody tough for something that looked so graceful and serene.

My mom got very worried when I told her about my yoga. Seems she’s afraid I’m in a cult or something. "I wish you’d just go to church instead," was her response……..

*splork*

sounds to me like you’re doing yoga already!

Nah ….. I do a poor imitation ….. but even that does me good  :-) Silver

Response:

I would be curious to know how many of you are going through menopause alone and how you manage day to day on your own.  I’m talking here _really_ alone. No support, no HRT, no anti-depressants, etc.  I could really use some helpful hints at the moment. Thanks, erw

Response:

That sounds like me. I am doing fine. There has been a lot of interesting stuff to explore during this time of life .Many of these thoughts have been collected on a volunteer website some of the posters on this newsgroup have been contributing too. In fact there is a list of "good" things that come with menopause. I hope you  enjoy reading it: www.oxford.net/~tishy/beyond.html J erw <e…@Xmindspring.com

wrote in message

news:8a8ofg$5g6$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I would be curious to know how many of you are going through menopause

alone

and how you manage day to day on your own.  I’m talking here _really_

alone.

No support, no HRT, no anti-depressants, etc.  I could really use some helpful hints at the moment. Thanks, erw

Response:

"erw" <e…@Xmindspring.com

writes: I would be curious to know how many of you are going through menopause alone and how you manage day to day on your own.  I’m talking here _really_ alone. No support, no HRT, no anti-depressants, etc.  I could really use some helpful hints at the moment.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by no support.  I have this group, and my immediate family and friends know what’s going on with me. Some of them get pretty detailed complaints and others get general whining. I’m not taking any drugs except for the occasional ibuprofen and decongestant (I have sinus headaches that turned up at the same time as other peri symptoms) and some vitamin supplements.  I do follow a vegan diet. My main problems are heavy bleeding, fatigue, some mood swings, occasional severe achiness that doesn’t seem to stem from anything I ate or did, intermittent insomnia, and the sinus headaches, if those are actually related.  It’s the fatigue that is really annoying me at the moment. I’m not sure no support is really a good idea for anybody, ever, but I may not really understand what you mean by it.  Care to elucidate? — Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet           (p…@demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page    and interview the witnesses."  John M. Ford, "Shared World"

Response:

erw wrote:

I would be curious to know how many of you are going through menopause alone and how you manage day to day on your own.  I’m talking here _really_ alone. No support, no HRT, no anti-depressants, etc.  I could really use some helpful hints at the moment.

Well, I’ve found loads of support right here in the newsgroup, but other than that … I’m 51, single, live alone, take no hormones, no anti-depressants, no herbs, no supplements … I’ve been in peri for 4 or 5 years, I think, although it didn’t dawn on me till almost exactly two yearw ago. My primary "symptom" has been erratic periods from hell, including some horrendous flooding, occasional skipped ones, and the latest variation — pink dribbles that go on for weeks. It’s getting really tiresome … but just tiresome, not unbearable. I’ve been through phases of nightsweats and insomnia; those seem to have vanished, and been replaced by dry, itchy skin and the occasional hot flash. Oh, and my libido has been missing for well over a year; if anyone finds it, please send it back. (As I don’t have a partner just now, this is not a big problem, and I’m trusting that it will return when and if I run into someone I’d like to exercise it with.) I also suffer the usual allotment of middle-aged aches and pains. When I experienced my first dramatic bleeding episode (it lasted about 20 days and was really … appalling ), I went to the doctor, got checked out and everything came up clear – no fibroids, no endometriosis, no cycsts, no masses in my uterus, no anemia. My doctor offered HRT; I’d done some reading (not much else to do when you’re sitting home waiting to stop bleeding; thank goodness for Dr. Susan Love’s Hormone Book) and decided to decline. I don’t like taking pills, and I’ve had a couple of nasty reactions to "natural" products, so I’ve opted to live through this change without dosing myself with much of anything, other than the occasional ibuprofen when I’m bleeding heavily. All in all, I’m doing fine. This newsgroup has helped a lot – sharing my experiences with others tends to blow off the anxiety, and there have been many "aha!" moments when someone else has expressed exactly what I’m going through. I personally think I’m having a fairly easy time of it. It’s probably a matter of perception, though – when my office-mate hears me bitching about a bad bleed, she seems to think what I’m going through is extreme. Different people seem to have different annoyance thresholds, and I’ll admit that I tend not to get easily upset about much of anything, and that I am generally satisfied with my life, which I believe makes some difference in how people respond to pain and distress. Am I happy all the time? Nope. But I feel generally OK, and sometimes quite good. I try to eat a relatively health diet and not overdo things like caffeine, sugar or alcohol; I try (and sometimes succeed) to get at least a little exercise every day, mainly just walking, and when I encounter a specific problem, I look for sensible, no-cost ways to deal with it. For me, that usually means making myself more comfortable, making small changes in the way I dress, the way I move, the way I sit. If something makes my symptoms worse, I stop doing it; if something makes me feel better, I try to remember that for next time. Oh – and I’ve kept my sense of humor. That’s a big one, as most women in this newsgroup can probably tell you. I’d be glad to answer any questions you might have. Regards, –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Silver wrote:

"I keep saying I’m going to try yoga (had a brief and enjoyable fling with it many years ago) but I never do get round to it.  I imagine it would be beneficial.  I think that the best exercise regime is the one you most enjoy ….. that way you’re likely to keep at it. Although I don’t think it really qualifies as "proper" exercise,

oh my gosh….I had my weekly class this morning and we worked on backbends. It really *is* proper exercise. You should be in that room during the summer–peeyew!  ;-) The Iyengar method is very vigorous in contrast to the gentle slow stretching and breathing yoga classes that are also out there. Both valid, in my opinion. But even with the props, it’s still a workout. My mom got very worried when I told her about my yoga. Seems she’s afraid I’m in a cult or something. "I wish you’d just go to church instead," was her response……..

my breathing and stretching exercises have been a huge help to me.  I’m a real wreck physically and not up to much strenuous exercise (insert discussion about which came first !).  I do about twenty minutes a day of measured breathing, combined with gentle stretching movements and this also turns into a meditation session ……. it relieves stress, turns my mind away from all other thoughts, helps keep my body from seizing up and brings me both a feeling of calm and a feeling of increased energy.  I really notice a difference when I let this slip from my daily routine. Do tell me how it goes with the yoga …… you might help provide me with that extra incentive to get my at together on this  :-) Silver

sounds to me like you’re doing yoga already! Cindy

Response:

The book I’m using is called Yoga Over 50 (The Way to Vitality, Health and Energy in the Prime of Life) by Mary Stewart.  It’s pretty basic but extremely easy to follow for beginners like myself.  Clear instructions with large photo’s of real people demonstrating the poses.  True, some of the poses look a little painful to accomplish but I think the point is to start slow which I am.  Amazing how the human body can imitate a pretzel!  :) Also, if I’ve spent too much time in front of my computer I’ve been using a few of the exercises listed here: http://www.ivillage.com/diet/tools/yoga/neck3.html Btw, Tishy…I finally got on to your site…really terrific, especially enjoyed reading some of the good and humorous aspects of menopause. erw

Response:

Hi – stick around, you’ll hear all sorts of stories, & all sorts of advice. Did you see the famous list of 35 symptoms??  It’s helpful & is at: http://www.howdyneighbor.com/menopaus/symptoms.htm Cathy Sanderson Sanderson <Sanders…@btinternet.com

wrote in message

news:8aercf$aao$1@plutonium.btinternet.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi everyone This is the first time I have seen your newsgroup.  I have been on the change for a number of years now.  I thought i had seen the last one, but after 10 months had a period and am now not having them again.  I so have

a

lot of problems with my health at the moment that are not due to

menopause.

diabetic, vertigo hearing loss in one ear, had MRI scan to check vertigo they say I have meniers, I wake up dizzy and the room spins and I am very sick. also have spinal injury in my spine in neck and lower back and am in

a

lot of pain  with those and had to leave work causing me to be very depressed. Life a lot of you say people get fed up with you talking about your

health.

I have most of the symptoms you all give, but none of you have mentioned that you get dryness in the vagina, this has been so bad that sex is very painful, a quick talk with the lady behind the counter at the chemist shop and she said ky jelly which helps but is awful stuff.  I did not know that you can get panic attacks from menopause, I have had a couple of them, but thought it was due to the large number of medical I have had to attend due to (English DSS) as I am off on the sick with my spine, and the fact that

I > am suing my company for the accident. > Hope we will all be over this soon. > sanders…@btinternet.com > "erw" <e…@Xmindspring.com

wrote in message

> news:8a9voj$25b$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net… > > Thanks, Tishy.  I’m having a problem accessing your site tonight but hope

to have a look tomorrow.

Response:

Hi everyone This is the first time I have seen your newsgroup.  I have been on the change for a number of years now.  I thought i had seen the last one, but after 10 months had a period and am now not having them again.  I so have a lot of problems with my health at the moment that are not due to menopause. diabetic, vertigo hearing loss in one ear, had MRI scan to check vertigo they say I have meniers, I wake up dizzy and the room spins and I am very sick. also have spinal injury in my spine in neck and lower back and am in a lot of pain  with those and had to leave work causing me to be very depressed. Life a lot of you say people get fed up with you talking about your health. I have most of the symptoms you all give, but none of you have mentioned that you get dryness in the vagina, this has been so bad that sex is very painful, a quick talk with the lady behind the counter at the chemist shop and she said ky jelly which helps but is awful stuff.  I did not know that you can get panic attacks from menopause, I have had a couple of them, but thought it was due to the large number of medical I have had to attend due to (English DSS) as I am off on the sick with my spine, and the fact that I am suing my company for the accident. Hope we will all be over this soon. sanders…@btinternet.com "erw" <e…@Xmindspring.com

wrote in message

news:8a9voj$25b$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Thanks, Tishy.  I’m having a problem accessing your site tonight but hope

to

have a look tomorrow.

Response:

Thank you joanna for your reply, and the help with some better cream.  I will be looking in on your group again. I am not well enough to join any groups, but I take your point that I do need to talk to other women. I do keep a marine aquarium, and enjoy watching them and going to look at them in shops, and of course reading books.  I also read the rec.aquarium newsgroups on internet as well. bye for now. "Joanna" <Joa…@nhspeople.net

wrote in message

news:3d2mcs46cl004610plg1o64fdeq36enb6s@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:09:48 -0000, "Sanderson Sanderson" <Sanders…@btinternet.com wrote: Hi everyone Hi Sanderson and welcome to asm. Can you get me discount on wallpaper This is the first time I have seen your newsgroup.  I have been on the change for a number of years now.  I thought i had seen the last one, but after 10 months had a period and am now not having them again.  I so have

a

lot of problems with my health at the moment that are not due to

menopause.

diabetic, vertigo hearing loss in one ear, had MRI scan to check vertigo they say I have meniers, I wake up dizzy and the room spins and I am very sick. also have spinal injury in my spine in neck and lower back and am

in a

lot of pain  with those and had to leave work causing me to be very depressed. I am sorry to hear this. Is there any voluntary work you could do which would take the place of paid employment and provide a social outlet?  Have you thought of joining any local classes or groups? I know these won’t help with pain but they might help you spirits. Life a lot of you say people get fed up with you talking about your

health.

I have most of the symptoms you all give, but none of you have mentioned that you get dryness in the vagina, this has been so bad that sex is very painful, a quick talk with the lady behind the counter at the chemist

shop

and she said ky jelly which helps but is awful stuff. The subject has come up [oh dear ] fairly frequently in the newsgroup. I agree with you about KY.  It’s not designed for s*x but for medical exams which, one hopes, are shorter in duration. The best advice so far gathered here is to increase your water intake to 8 glasses a day.  If you are taking any medication which dries other mucous membranes, these will also dry the vagina.  So bear that in mind if you are on such a drug. Apart from the water, applying something like aloe vera gel [you should be able to get this from your local chemist's]  _daily_ seems to help. Alternatives are Vitamin E oil from the Body Shop or a punctured capsule or plain olive oil. You need to get a good dollop and really shove it in. Frankly, olive oil is just as good as KY during s*x. You’ll need a towel or paper napkins and hopefully it can be applied as part of f*replay. They have better lubricants in the US such as Astroglide but, to my knowledge, we can’t pop into Boots and get such things. I did not know that you can get panic attacks from menopause, I have had a couple of them,

but

thought it was due to the large number of medical I have had to attend

due

to (English DSS) as I am off on the sick with my spine, and the fact that

I

am suing my company for the accident. I’m not convinced menopause causes panic attacks. I think thatlife stuff causes them but we may be more sensitive to our body’s reactions at this time. The events you are describing would cause some reaction in anyone who wasn’t brain dead. Hope we will all be over this soon. Amen to that. Joanna

Response:

"Karen Kay" <ka…@wordwrite.com

wrote My feeling was that the really bad symptoms were in the early years. Karen

That’s the way I see it too ……. though I’m not at all sure how much of that has to do with my attitude.  I was scared out of my wits for the first few years (not even thinking I was peri) and I think that really made everything not only seem but actually *be* a lot worse  :-(   For example, I still get the odd panic attack …. but when I do I remind myself that it’s a panic attack, I modify my breathing, I try to stay calm and ride with it.  A few years ago when I’d have a panic attack I’d just, er, panic (and that really is the worst thing you can do). Silver

Response:

"erw" <e…@Xmindspring.com

wrote Basically,  when my energy level is down everything else seems to go downhill.  I’m thinking that, perhaps, my body requires a different exercise program than what I’m used to.  Yoga, I’m told is very beneficial to an overall feeling of well being so I’m giving that a try on a very minor level.  I wonder if anyone here knows of specific exercises to relieve some of the usual symtoms of menopause?

I keep saying I’m going to try yoga (had a brief and enjoyable fling with it many years ago) but I never do get round to it.  I imagine it would be beneficial.  I think that the best exercise regime is the one you most enjoy ….. that way you’re likely to keep at it. Although I don’t think it really qualifies as "proper" exercise, my breathing and stretching exercises have been a huge help to me.  I’m a real wreck physically and not up to much strenuous exercise (insert discussion about which came first !).  I do about twenty minutes a day of measured breathing, combined with gentle stretching movements and this also turns into a meditation session ……. it relieves stress, turns my mind away from all other thoughts, helps keep my body from seizing up and brings me both a feeling of calm and a feeling of increased energy.  I really notice a difference when I let this slip from my daily routine. Do tell me how it goes with the yoga …… you might help provide me with that extra incentive to get my at together on this  :-) Silver

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ti…@cheerful.com wrote:

On Thu, 9 Mar 2000 21:27:48 -0800, "erw" <e…@Xmindspring.com wrote: Yoga, I’m told is very beneficial to an overall feeling of well being so I’m giving that a try on a very minor level.  I wonder if anyone here knows of specific exercises to relieve some of the usual symtoms of menopause? _The New Yoga for People Over Fifty: A comprehensive guide for midlife and older beginners_ by Suza Francina; Health Communications Inc; 1997 ISBN 1-55874-453-3 (paper US$11.95) has a chapter entitled Yoga: A Reliable Companion During Menopause. I don’t have any personal experience of the efficacy of the poses, but the whole book utilizes the Iyengar mentioned here recently and uses plenty of "props" such as blankets, straps and chairs to make them easier  for people who are less flexible. It looks to me like something not only worthwhile trying but a feasible proposition! The book has many photographs of aging and aged people and encouraging quotes from them e.g. Ruth Lain, 82yr old yoga teacher, who has practiced yoga since she was 65 says "I’m still teaching 10 classes a week and giving five or six private lessons a week. Recently I had an eighty year old woman call me and ask ‘Am I too old to do yoga?’ I asked her, ‘Can you still breathe? Well then, come for a lesson.’ " Tishy

  I have this book: it’s very inspiring (not to mention humbling!). Cindy

Response:

"erw" <e…@Xmindspring.com

wrote I would be curious to know how many of you are going through menopause alone and how you manage day to day on your own.  I’m talking here _really_ alone.  No support, no HRT, no anti-depressants, etc.  I could  really use some helpful hints at the moment.

Depends on what you mean by "alone".  I’ve had a failed experiment with HRT, I’ve tried antidepressants (briefly and without success), I’ve had conversations with medical professionals on menopause ……. all that probably adds up to about 4% of the time I’ve been in peri.  I have a sympathetic husband, an understanding cat and some good friends (both virtual and IRL) ….. but even adding all that up doesn’t anywhere near make up 50% of my time …… so mostly I am _really_ alone with my peri What sort of difficulties are you looking for helpful hints on ? Silver

Response:

Firstly, thank you all for sharing a bit some personal info pertaining to your own situations….very helpful, and makes me feel a little less like the lone ranger.   I think it’s all fine and dandy to read pertinent facts, figures and data written about menopause but it’s quite another thing to hear first hand from women going through it. Aside from the erratic symptoms I’m experiencing I’m having the worse time with the support issue.  What I mean is human support.  Also, dealing with a complete life change which has put dealing with menopause kind of at the bottom of my priority list.  My doctor put me on HRT about six months ago and I’ve just stopped taking it one week ago without his blessing so I’m back to those dreaded hot flashes but want to try to tough it out sans meds for a while.  Not sure if I’m making the right decision but I’d like it to be mine, not his.  Hope the fatigue is only temporary.  I’m trying different things to combat it like minor yoga exercises. In any case, I see some of you have recommended web sites so I’m hoping to find some of my questions answered there and, of course, I’ll be popping in here, as well. Again, many thanks for sharing. erw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Pat Kight wrote in message <38C80E96.9AC77…@ucs.orst.edu

… Well, I’ve found loads of support right here in the newsgroup, but other than that … I’m 51, single, live alone, take no hormones, no anti-depressants, no herbs, no supplements …

Ditto for me.  I’m thinking at this point I’m going to let Mother Nature have her way with me.  At least what’s happening to me is natural.

I’ve been in peri for 4 or 5 years, …..

Say it ain’t so! Really? Oh well, guess if I’m in peri for that long I guess anything else that comes my way will be an easy ride. -:)

I’d be glad to answer any questions you might have.

Thanks Pat, I’ll probably be having a few. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Regards, >–Pat Kight >kig…@peak.org

I’d be glad to answer any questions you might have.

>Regards, >–Pat Kight >kig…@peak.org

Response:

Thanks, Tishy.  I’m having a problem accessing your site tonight but hope to have a look tomorrow.

Response:

Yep, I’d call my run with HRT an experiment also.  Especially since my mother died of breast cancer.  My doctor convinced me that the benefits far outweighed the risks which I’m sure you guys have heard here dozens of times.  Zoloft, same story.  All that did was suck my creative juices dry. Silver wrote in message <8a9mmi$3…@news7.svr.pol.co.uk

… Depends on what you mean by "alone".  I’ve had a failed experiment with HRT, I’ve tried antidepressants (briefly and without success), I’ve had conversations with medical professionals on menopause ……. all that probably adds up to about 4% of the time I’ve been in peri.  I have a sympathetic husband, an understanding cat and some good friends (both virtual and IRL) ….. but even adding all that up doesn’t anywhere near make up 50% of my time …… so mostly I am _really_ alone with my peri What sort of difficulties are you looking for helpful hints on ?

Basically,  when my energy level is down everything else seems to go downhill.  I’m thinking that, perhaps, my body requires a different exercise program than what I’m used to.  Yoga, I’m told is very beneficial to an overall feeling of well being so I’m giving that a try on a very minor level.  I wonder if anyone here knows of specific exercises to relieve some of the usual symtoms of menopause? Thanks much, erw I – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Silver

Response:

In article <38C80E96.9AC77…@ucs.orst.edu

, kig…@peak.org wrote: Oh – and I’ve kept my sense of humor. That’s a big one, as most women in this newsgroup can probably tell you.

That will get you through menopause and a myriad  number of other things with which  life may hit you .

Response:

erw <e…@Xmindspring.com

wrote in message

news:8a8ofg$5g6$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net…

I would be curious to know how many of you are going through menopause

alone

and how you manage day to day on your own.  I’m talking here _really_

alone.

No support, no HRT, no anti-depressants, etc.  I could really use some helpful hints at the moment. Thanks, erw

Yes, I’m going it alone, except that I do talk with some friends & acquaintances – both IRL & via e-mail, & my sister, about the various & sundry symptoms.  I live alone – except for my 3 cats, & so far have resisted HRT.  Subscribing to this group – finding that *tons* of women are dealing with the same symptoms, and finding humor in them (some of them are so weird/annoying, that one has to laugh!) helps considerably, I feel. Cathy

Response:

Question:

Thanks for an uplifting post Julie!   Speaking as a "summer" person, I can feel my spirits rising with the lengthening days. It was me who posted just after the shortest day,  in December, that the "countdown to summer had begun".  I’m glad you did more about it than I managed to do! janice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good Morning ASD! I woke up this morning at 7:50am, an unheard of time for yours truely when I go to bed well after 1am without an alarm clock.  Why? Because the sun was shining through my window.  There are 110 days until June 21. For those of you who may not know, I have been counting down to summer to try to motivate myself to get into a more streamlined wol routine.  I started this countdown 60 days ago, when winter was in her glory and I was feeling sluggish and unmotivated.  Today, I have decided to really get back to it the right way. This morning, I will begin my yoga practices on a regular basis-I have been neglecting myself (workout wise) and last week my husband and I went for two lovely walks.  So, why am I writing this instead of practicing my yoga?  I need to be a bit more accountable to myself which is what helped me to lose the weight this summer.  My tone and energy level, have spiraled down to a level which I’m not happy with. I decided to get my first liter of water in for the day while reading/posting this morning, then it is off to the yoga mat for me. May everyone have a wonderful day and weekend. Julie

Response:

Well good morning sunshine!  =) Way to go on the motivation!   Let’s keep moving!  =) — Mary Day   4  of 76  - until graduation Walked for   58  minutes, for a total of 469 min of aerobic activity since Jan. 1, 00      On my "way" to NYC.  1 minute = 1/2 mile To REPLY, please respond to BlueEyes71 (at) ticon (dot) net

Response:

Good start to the day Julie… Have just a super weekend Alice

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good Morning ASD! I woke up this morning at 7:50am, an unheard of time for yours truely when I go to bed well after 1am without an alarm clock.  Why? Because the sun was shining through my window.  There are 110 days until June 21. For those of you who may not know, I have been counting down to summer to try to motivate myself to get into a more streamlined wol routine.  I started this countdown 60 days ago, when winter was in her glory and I was feeling sluggish and unmotivated.  Today, I have decided to really get back to it the right way. This morning, I will begin my yoga practices on a regular basis-I have been neglecting myself (workout wise) and last week my husband and I went for two lovely walks.  So, why am I writing this instead of practicing my yoga?  I need to be a bit more accountable to myself which is what helped me to lose the weight this summer.  My tone and energy level, have spiraled down to a level which I’m not happy with. I decided to get my first liter of water in for the day while reading/posting this morning, then it is off to the yoga mat for me. May everyone have a wonderful day and weekend. Julie

Response:

Good Morning ASD! I woke up this morning at 7:50am, an unheard of time for yours truely when I go to bed well after 1am without an alarm clock.  Why? Because the sun was shining through my window.  There are 110 days until June 21. For those of you who may not know, I have been counting down to summer to try to motivate myself to get into a more streamlined wol routine.  I started this countdown 60 days ago, when winter was in her glory and I was feeling sluggish and unmotivated.  Today, I have decided to really get back to it the right way. This morning, I will begin my yoga practices on a regular basis-I have been neglecting myself (workout wise) and last week my husband and I went for two lovely walks.  So, why am I writing this instead of practicing my yoga?  I need to be a bit more accountable to myself which is what helped me to lose the weight this summer.  My tone and energy level, have spiraled down to a level which I’m not happy with. I decided to get my first liter of water in for the day while reading/posting this morning, then it is off to the yoga mat for me. May everyone have a wonderful day and weekend. Julie

Response:

i’d recommend yoga to everyone and anyone if they gave me half the chance to be perfectly honest.  i’ll tell you why too.  supposedly i was diagnosed with asthma (i’m quite doubtful that it’s true asthma anymore) i think it’s more allergy related, and also stress related.  i was diagnosed after a particularly stressful thanksgiving dinner held at my house during a school term with my father in law staying with us for the entire week (including the days i was at school for that week)…anyway…he would stress me out tremendously and at the time i was really trying to be ms. martha stuart (what was i thinking).. anyway after being on the asthma meds and a doc overdosing me on meds which supposedly were to keep the asthma under control, i started to question why this would have happened if i really did have asthma and all… to make a long story short, i discontinued the meds, and didn’t have any asthma related issues until i started working in a plant which was very dirty and the stuff i was breathing in wasn’t doing me any favors.  i left that job and my mom suggested that i start take yoga classes with her at the gym.  what the heck, i had about two months before school started and nothing to do..so i tried it.  with only taking classes once a week for an hr each week, i noticed a tremendous change in how i felt. my mind was clear, things that normally stressed me didn’t (my father in law at thanksgiving was the real test, and i passed with flying colors) and to top it off the trouble i was having with my breathing stopped. i quit the yoga for a while, and again felt like a lump…started it back up and lo and behold i felt so much better.  even when i don’t practice the yoga postures i try to at least practice the breathing techniques. sometimes i forget and feel icky until i remember to do so.  it’s amazing how we normally don’t use our full lung capacity in our breathing. yoga has taught me to atleast focus on that for shot periods of time, and part of the technique involves making a shhhh sound while breathing…it’s very calming. Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good afternoon Julie!  You are one of the really inspiring people in the group.  Yoga is a wonderful start to the day- you sound very focussed to me now!  You will succeed.

Response:

Go Julie go!  WTG!  I can’t wait for summer either! — Cindy 215/152/135 Des2K 145.38/1508 "I plan to live forever, or die trying."

Response:

Thanks Julie.  I think the answer to your question is – just keep posting and I’ll keep reading!! janice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m glad you did more about it than I managed  to do! janice you know, it’s not too late at all for you to start too.  how can we help you to get motivated? Julie

Response:

Good afternoon Julie!  You are one of the really inspiring people in the group.  Yoga is a wonderful start to the day- you sound very focussed to me now!  You will succeed.

Response:

sounds like a good plan, my friend.  maybe the "bug" will bite you soon. Julie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Julie.  I think the answer to your question is – just keep posting and I’ll keep reading!! janice I’m glad you did more about it than I managed  to do! janice you know, it’s not too late at all for you to start too.  how can we help you to get motivated? Julie

Response:

Well good morning sunshine!  =)

*grin* sunshine? who me? nah.  the morning weather report claims there won’t be a cloud in the sky until thursday!! i’m so excited about this.  this time when i go out, i’ll have to remember to get out the sunblock–wouldn’t want to get sunburned again. hehe on the eating note, i had "breakfast" about 30  minutes ago…ok so i’m not a breakfast food liker, nor do i remember to eat in the morning anyway… consisted of some ham, some cheese and tomatos….it’s amazing how much better i feel and the "nappies" haven’t settled in (carbs usually get me with those). i’ll be on the cleaning train shortly, mom’s b-day is wednesday, so i’m having a dinner for her tomorrow (this place hasn’t been cleaned by me since january–hubby’s style of cleaning is well….an attempt shall we say). we’re having: shrimp and scallop stir fry with various veggies and angel food cake with toffutti for dessert. i need to find her a present of some sort, but if i don’t have any time to buy something, i’ll try to get a "memory jar" together some time tonight. we’ll see. ciao all Julie

Response:

I’m glad you did more about it than I managed  to do! janice

you know, it’s not too late at all for you to start too.  how can we help you to get motivated? Julie

Response:

Good for you, Julie! Cynthia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good Morning ASD! I woke up this morning at 7:50am, an unheard of time for yours truely when I go to bed well after 1am without an alarm clock.  Why? Because the sun was shining through my window.  There are 110 days until June 21. For those of you who may not know, I have been counting down to summer to try to motivate myself to get into a more streamlined wol routine.  I started this countdown 60 days ago, when winter was in her glory and I was feeling sluggish and unmotivated.  Today, I have decided to really get back to it the right way. This morning, I will begin my yoga practices on a regular basis-I have been neglecting myself (workout wise) and last week my husband and I went for two lovely walks.  So, why am I writing this instead of practicing my yoga?  I need to be a bit more accountable to myself which is what helped me to lose the weight this summer.  My tone and energy level, have spiraled down to a level which I’m not happy with. I decided to get my first liter of water in for the day while reading/posting this morning, then it is off to the yoga mat for me. May everyone have a wonderful day and weekend. Julie

Response:

then by all means get back to it!!!! I keep meaning to tell you that i thing your names are awesome.  are they just nicknames? Julie

Zaphod Beeblebrox and Tricia McMillan (Trillian) are characters from The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams. It is book one of a "trilogy" consisting of 5 books at the latest count. These are among the funniest books I have ever read.

Response:

then by all means get back to it!!!! I keep meaning to tell you that i thing your names are awesome.  are they just nicknames? Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmmm- it has been a few years since I did any serious yoga- maybe I shall take it up again.  My sister has been doing it a lot lately- going to classes and really devoting the time to it.  She is unable to work now because of health problems and she was a brilliant professional in her field previously. Her weight problem is more severe than mine, again because of the severe health problems, but she is having really good success with the yoga.

Response:

Hmmm- it has been a few years since I did any serious yoga- maybe I shall take it up again.  My sister has been doing it a lot lately- going to classes and really devoting the time to it.  She is unable to work now because of health problems and she was a brilliant professional in her field previously. Her weight problem is more severe than mine, again because of the severe health problems, but she is having really good success with the yoga.

Response:

this thread reminded me i wanted to read this "someday" like i posted previously…anyway, guess what i got today yep, hitchhikers guide…i made it to the first chapter about zaphod (4 perhaps) then my friend called.  so far so good…i have a feeling this is one of those books i may have to read twice to get the full meaning. Julie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Trillian, I thought it was a great "trilogy" too. If you can ever find a copy, you might like this book, not science fiction, but quite funny. "The Decline and Fall of Practically Everybody" by Will Cuppy Cynthia then by all means get back to it!!!! I keep meaning to tell you that i thing your names are awesome.  are they just nicknames? Julie Zaphod Beeblebrox and Tricia McMillan (Trillian) are characters from The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams. It is book one of a "trilogy" consisting of 5 books at the latest count. These are among the funniest books I have ever read.

Response:

Thanks! I shall look for it.  First place to look: http//:bibliofind.com I have found a lot of rare, out-of-print books there.

Response:

Hi Trillian, I thought it was a great "trilogy" too. If you can ever find a copy, you might like this book, not science fiction, but quite funny. "The Decline and Fall of Practically Everybody" by Will Cuppy Cynthia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – then by all means get back to it!!!! I keep meaning to tell you that i thing your names are awesome.  are they just nicknames? Julie Zaphod Beeblebrox and Tricia McMillan (Trillian) are characters from The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams. It is book one of a "trilogy" consisting of 5 books at the latest count. These are among the funniest books I have ever read.

Response:

Zaphod Beeblebrox and Tricia McMillan (Trillian) are characters from The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams. It is book one of a "trilogy" consisting of 5 books at the latest count. These are among the funniest books I have ever read.

i thought that sounded familiar…that’s one of those series’ i mean to read, but never get around to.  i think i’m going to have to ask for books come my b-day (yet again) Julie

Response:

Well, I wouldn’t spend a ton! But you’d probably find it rather amusing. I might go look for some of his other books. Thanks for the tip. Cynthia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks! I shall look for it.  First place to look: http//:bibliofind.com I have found a lot of rare, out-of-print books there.

Response:

Question:

Dene, Ask your Dr to review your labwork for the possibility of gouty arthritis. This condition is usually in the metacarpal joint(s) of the foot, but can be wide-spread. Gout in rib articulations is rare, and is a severe pain-you think you are literally going to die! Just a suggestion-I have seen it before. Dave/

Response:

Not that I know too much about your condition but have you had your digestive system looked into? A scope even… i have crohns disease so it sounds familliar to me but it could be many things. tiffany – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone, Um, I’ve had this pain in my left side for 5 weeks now and it’s really getting me down. I have been to see my Doctor 4 times and even went down to Casualty/ER once when I thought I was having a heart attack or something. They have checked me out on each occasion and said I sound fine but never really given me peace of mind. They say that it could be muscular/posture problems but 5 weeks of this? They haven’t felt the need to send me for x-rays yet and have so far given me antibiotics (initially thought it was an infection) and then the hospital told me to take Doclofenic (sp?) which didn’t help at all. My Doctor gave me Feldene gel to apply last week which does not have an effect either (as yet). The reason I freak though is that sometimes it feels like the pain in my ribs has gone but then I have stomach discomfort and kind on indigestions sounds (you know, rumbling etc.) I was just wondering if anyone here as any insight into this? COuld it be a muscular thing? Would it last so long?  The pain has not actually got any worse over the 5 weeks but then again, it hasn’t got any better Any views/advice to try and put my mind at rest would be most grateful. If I could just pinpoint this and try and do something to get rid of it then that would a start. Thank you in advance -Dene

Response:

Hi everyone, Um, I’ve had this pain in my left side for 5 weeks now and it’s really getting me down. I have been to see my Doctor 4 times and even went down to Casualty/ER once when I thought I was having a heart attack or something. They have checked me out on each occasion and said I sound fine but never really given me peace of mind.

Checked out…how?  Looked you over, found nothing obvious and sent you packing? The ER is the WRONG place to treat pain which does not stem from obvious physical sources.  They are in a hurry, don’t really know much about pain (except as an indicator of "something else") and generally discourage you from coming back through their behavior.  Great place to fix a broken arm, bad place to treat undiagnosed pain. They say that it could be muscular/posture problems but 5 weeks of this? They haven’t felt the need to send me for x-rays yet and have so far given me antibiotics (initially thought it was an infection)

Infection?  How’d they reach that conclusion?  Blood workup, physical exam or just guessing? and then the hospital told me to take Doclofenic (sp?)

Diclofenac   (  http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/diclofen_cp.htm  ) Cataflam IR or the Voltaren family of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory (NSAID). which didn’t help at all. My Doctor gave me Feldene gel to apply last week which does not have an effect either (as yet).

Another NSAID  (  http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/piroxicam_cp.htm  ). The reason I freak though is that sometimes it feels like the pain in my ribs has gone but then I have stomach discomfort and kind on indigestions sounds (you know, rumbling etc.) I was just wondering if anyone here as any insight into this? COuld it be a muscular thing? Would it last so long?  The pain has not actually got any worse over the 5 weeks but then again, it hasn’t got any better

Intercostal pain can, and does, last much longer than other muscle pains. The short muscles between the ribs do not respond to traditional therapy due to their location and relative lack of contractibility.  An underlying disturbance of the diaphragm can radiate pain  in many directions, and can cause peptic rumblings as well. If the pain is unilateral (one sided), relatively stable in it’s extent and scope, and does not cause other discomfort, you’ll just have to wait it out. Controlled breathing/yoga exercises can stretch and replenish the intercostals, but other exercise measures may prove to be less effective. Traditional PT treatment – physio, hot and cold packs, etc are generally easily duplicated at home – save your money! Here’s a link to a nice breathing for stress site – which includes a RealPlayer soundtrack to follow along and learn from. http://www.breath.org/breathing-audio.htm and a nice picture/printed format from Kaiser Permanente: http://www.scl.ncal.kaiperm.org/healthinfo/stress/mindandbody.html Any views/advice to try and put my mind at rest would be most grateful. If I could just pinpoint this and try and do something to get rid of it then that would a start.

Good Luck!  Let us know how it’s going!  I cracked my 3 lower right "floating" ribs (right above the kidney) in July and it hurt clear up until a couple of weeks ago.  Sitting OR standing was fine – it was the getting up and getting down part that was a bitch!! Robert Conner LMT CPP Prairie Life Center Omaha, Nebraska

Response:

Hi everyone, Um, I’ve had this pain in my left side for 5 weeks now and it’s really getting me down. I have been to see my Doctor 4 times and even went down to Casualty/ER once when I thought I was having a heart attack or something. They have checked me out on each occasion and said I sound fine but never really given me peace of mind. They say that it could be muscular/posture problems but 5 weeks of this? They haven’t felt the need to send me for x-rays yet and have so far given me antibiotics (initially thought it was an infection) and then the hospital told me to take Doclofenic (sp?) which didn’t help at all. My Doctor gave me Feldene gel to apply last week which does not have an effect either (as yet). The reason I freak though is that sometimes it feels like the pain in my ribs has gone but then I have stomach discomfort and kind on indigestions sounds (you know, rumbling etc.) I was just wondering if anyone here as any insight into this? COuld it be a muscular thing? Would it last so long?  The pain has not actually got any worse over the 5 weeks but then again, it hasn’t got any better Any views/advice to try and put my mind at rest would be most grateful. If I could just pinpoint this and try and do something to get rid of it then that would a start. Thank you in advance -Dene

Response:

Dene: Pains like that can be very frustrating and elusive.  Two things that come to my mind are: 1) Possible hiatus hernia (happened to a friend of mine)…. the muscles that control reflux from the stomach herniate and can cause pain and discomfort.  A good GI doc could run some tests to confirm if you have that or not. 2) Herniated disc – (personal experience) – I have a herniated disc at C5/6. The referred pain that I get is at the left shoulder blade radiating to the uppermost ribs near the sternum (and the heart).  This is especially troublesome because for me, the pain is constant.  The only way that I would know if I had a heart attack is if I had trouble with my left arm. DISCLAIMER:  I am not an MD and these opinions are strictly guesses from personal and/or friends’ experiences. Hope this info helps. Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone, Um, I’ve had this pain in my left side for 5 weeks now and it’s really getting me down. I have been to see my Doctor 4 times and even went down to Casualty/ER once when I thought I was having a heart attack or something. They have checked me out on each occasion and said I sound fine but never really given me peace of mind. They say that it could be muscular/posture problems but 5 weeks of this? They haven’t felt the need to send me for x-rays yet and have so far given me antibiotics (initially thought it was an infection) and then the hospital told me to take Doclofenic (sp?) which didn’t help at all. My Doctor gave me Feldene gel to apply last week which does not have an effect either (as yet). The reason I freak though is that sometimes it feels like the pain in my ribs has gone but then I have stomach discomfort and kind on indigestions sounds (you know, rumbling etc.) I was just wondering if anyone here as any insight into this? COuld it be a muscular thing? Would it last so long?  The pain has not actually got any worse over the 5 weeks but then again, it hasn’t got any better Any views/advice to try and put my mind at rest would be most grateful. If I could just pinpoint this and try and do something to get rid of it then that would a start. Thank you in advance -Dene

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Question:

Yes – I have read it -thought it was very good, worth seeking out. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No … I have never heard of it. Om Santi … Sakti Lalita

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have this book, and am happy to tell you that it is in print, and you can get a copy! Normally, you would have to send to South Africa, where it is printed, to buy a copy from Morris Krok, the legendary fruitarian hatha yogi. He is the current publisher. Rather than sending to South Africa, and having  to worry about international bank drafts, etc, you can contact my friends at http://www.rawfood.com. I went there, but I couldn’t find either of the books you mention – nothing to do with yoga be Morris Krok or Theos Bernard. As far as I know, they are the only ones in this country who are currently importing it. With all respect, I must remind you that everyone in cyberspace is NOT necessarily a citizen of the USA.  I live in Australia. I also want you to know that the title of this book is actually "Yoga Gave Me Superior Health." The former title was "Heaven Lies within Us."   Are these the subtitles?  I only find it listed at amazon.com and in public libraries as "Hatha Yoga". Although there are teachings on diet & hatha yoga, this book is a concentrated compendium of all the classical yogas.   I’ve read another book that fits that description, by James Hewitt, "The complete yoga book : yoga of breathing, yoga of posture, and yoga of meditation".  Do you know that one, or others by him? If you would be interested in another rare yoga book of the same caliber as this one, it is called "Hatha Yoga: the Vibrant Science of Life." Morris Krok of South Africa is the author. Both books, although written by westerners, are very advanced. Theos Bernard is deceased. Morris Krok still lives in South Africa, and I believe is at least in his 60’s, although recent pictures I have seen of him make him appear to be late 30’s or early 40’s, with no grey hair at all. He is also a marathon runner.   He does sound interesting!  Especially as you say he’s a fruitarian – that’s always made a lot more sense to me than the traditional yogic/ayervedic diet. I have actually written to him, and he wrote back to me. His letter was less of a letter than a spontaneously written guide to the spiritual principles back of yoga.   Was that what you wanted, Habib?  If so, that’s cool.  However, I have had annoying experiences in meeting mystic-type people who can only speak in riddles.  You ever have that?  Its frustrating – they’re so spaced out and airy that they can’t hold an intelligible conversation, but you just *know* they’d be really interesting, if you could only understand what they were trying to say. Habib Thanks again, Gwailoh Before you buy.

The folks at http://www.rawfood.com do not always have all of their books listed on the online version of their catalog. Call them at 1-619-229-8259, and tell them you want the books by Theos Bernard and Morris Krok. They are friends of mine, and I just purchased the theos bernard book from them a little while back. I personally got my copy of Morris Krok’s book on hatha yoga from the author. I do not know if my friends carry his hatha yoga book, but they do carry some of his books. Possibly his books on fruitarianism.  If not, when I get around to finding Morris Krok’s address, you can always get them directly from him. If you do this, you will be able to get other of his books that are not sold here in the USA.You may also be pleased to know of a Fruitarian Network in your country, if you didn’t know of it already. It is headed by a Mr Rene Beresford. If you contact the Fruitarian network in Australia, at http://www3.islandnet.com/~arton/fruitnet.html, they may also have some books by Morris krok.Let me know if you have any trouble finding what you need, and I will try to help out. Habib

Response:

I have this book, and am happy to tell you that it is in print, and you can get a copy! Normally, you would have to send to South Africa, where it is printed, to buy a copy from Morris Krok, the legendary fruitarian hatha yogi. He is the current publisher. Rather than sending to South Africa, and having  to worry about international bank drafts, etc, you can contact my friends at http://www.rawfood.com.

I went there, but I couldn’t find either of the books you mention – nothing to do with yoga be Morris Krok or Theos Bernard. As far as I know, they are the only ones in this country who are currently importing it.

With all respect, I must remind you that everyone in cyberspace is NOT necessarily a citizen of the USA.  I live in Australia. I also want you to know that the title of this book is actually "Yoga Gave Me Superior Health." The former title was "Heaven Lies within Us."

  Are these the subtitles?  I only find it listed at amazon.com and in public libraries as "Hatha Yoga". Although there are teachings on diet & hatha yoga, this book is a concentrated compendium of all the classical yogas.

  I’ve read another book that fits that description, by James Hewitt, "The complete yoga book : yoga of breathing, yoga of posture, and yoga of meditation".  Do you know that one, or others by him? If you would be interested in another rare yoga book of the same caliber as this one, it is called "Hatha Yoga: the Vibrant Science of Life." Morris Krok of South Africa is the author. Both books, although written by westerners, are very advanced. Theos Bernard is deceased. Morris Krok still lives in South Africa, and I believe is at least in his 60’s, although recent pictures I have seen of him make him appear to be late 30’s or early 40’s, with no grey hair at all. He is also a marathon runner.

  He does sound interesting!  Especially as you say he’s a fruitarian – that’s always made a lot more sense to me than the traditional yogic/ayervedic diet. I have actually written to him, and he wrote back to me. His letter was less of a letter than a spontaneously written guide to the spiritual principles back of yoga.

  Was that what you wanted, Habib?  If so, that’s cool.  However, I have had annoying experiences in meeting mystic-type people who can only speak in riddles.  You ever have that?  Its frustrating – they’re so spaced out and airy that they can’t hold an intelligible conversation, but you just *know* they’d be really interesting, if you could only understand what they were trying to say. Habib

Thanks again, Gwailoh Before you buy.

Response:

No … I have never heard of it. Om Santi … Sakti Lalita

Response:

  All I’ve heard about it, is that it is a record, a journal, of Bernard Theos’ time in India as a yoga student.  I don’t know how long he was there for, or where, or who he studied with, but I think it was pretty hard-core. I read somewhere that he was doing head-stands for over 3 hours at a time, and several hundreds of uddiyana-bandhas.  I think this may have been back in the 50’s – 60’s… maybe I’ll get to read it one day and find out. No … I have never heard of it. Om Santi … Sakti Lalita

What does ‘Om Santi’ and ‘Sakti Lalita’ mean? Before you buy.

Response:

No … I have never heard of it. Om Santi … Sakti Lalita

yes, great book with good insights.  highly recommend it.

Response:

I’ve never been able to find this book(it’s out of print, obscure, and decades old), but I’ve been curious about it for a long time.  Anyone know what it’s like? Thanks! Before you buy.

Response:

I’ve never been able to find this book(it’s out of print, obscure, and decades old), but I’ve been curious about it for a long time.  Anyone know what it’s like? Thanks! Before you buy.

I have this book, and am happy to tell you that it is in print, and you can get a copy! Normally, you would have to send to South Africa, where it is printed, to buy a copy from Morris Krok, the legendary fruitarian hatha yogi. He is the current publisher. Rather than sending to South Africa, and having to worry about international bank drafts, etc, you can contact my friends at http://www.rawfood.com. You can also call them at 1-800-RAW-FOOD. As far as I know, they are the only ones in this country who are currently importing it. I also want you to know that the title of this book is actually "Yoga Gave Me Superior Health." The former title was "Heaven Lies within Us." Although there are teachings on diet & hatha yoga, this book is a concentrated compendium of all the classical yogas. If you would be interested in another rare yoga book of the same caliber as this one, it is called "Hatha Yoga: the Vibrant Science of Life." Morris Krok of South Africa is the author. Both books, although written by westerners, are very advanced. Theos Bernard is deceased. Morris Krok still lives in South Africa, and I believe is at least in his 60’s, although recent pictures I have seen of him make him appear to be late 30’s or early 40’s, with no grey hair at all. He is also a marathon runner. I have actually written to him, and he wrote back to me. His letter was less of a letter than a spontaneously written guide to the spiritual principles back of yoga. If you would be interested  in writing to him personally, contact me via private email, and I will provide you with his address. Habib

Response: