Question:

And here we come to, I think, to the crux of the original question.  How is one who is not wise know when they are wise?

How about the answer to "how can one who is in the delusion of being wise, know that they are not wise?" I would answer: Only by self-observation of the different states of consciousness and actions; to take mental photographs of oneself at different moments, and collect these photographs, thereby having an honest image of oneself; by remembering one’s best states and experiences and achievements, and achievements of the greats of history, by asking God to show us what we could be, and honestly striving towards that. Also, about the question:  is Yoga dangerous — all you have to do is read three or four books on yoga and you will see the warnings.  I’ve look through, skimmed, probably 30 books on Yoga over 20 years and I have seen the warnings.  I have also seen people who have done the damage.  I’m not talking about physical yoga, but that is also said to possibly cause damage. We have to remember that to some of us here when we say "yoga" we mean a lot more than hatha yoga. I think any time the idea of "reincarnation" can come into one’s ego there is a possibility of delusion.  Also, if one has problems with self-esteem, the temporary high states of consciousness that yoga brings can delude one into thinking one has achieved something lasting.  Instead of living in a mediocre state of consciousness, yoga can give you huge surges of energy and these surges can bring to the surface problems in your make-up. Robert Pearson Creative Virtue Press:  http://www.rspearson.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net/ R.S. Pearson Music Page  http://users.50megs.com/rspearson/

Response:

Greetings, If people could possibly get the next concept all would fall into place. Life the property of life as life does not possess the property of death as death means to ceast to exist or that which is dead. If you or anyone looks around in all this atomic rubble one sees ordinary things non living things crumbling or changing . These are your basic non living structures rocks minerals that under certain conditions life uses to antimate once inanimate now animate via life slowly has fashioned such structures these atoms which are not hard to understand did it would of died long ago and there would be none but it does not and never did die or possess that property . If you start here its alot simpler to become intellgent move along not being so testy. The next simple little thing is a very simple structure called the soul which is very useful in antimating . nite JD

Response:

I think Amy makes some excellent points. Jody suggested that sincerity is all one needs to stay out of trouble. I think wisdom is also needed. A sincere person can be fooled into wrong action unless they also develop wisdom. Part of this wisdom lies in knowing what things should be done and what things should not be done. This may vary from school to school. As Amy suggested, if someone is unclear about what things should be done and not done on the path they are following, asking the teacher or reading their writings is a good way to grow in wisdom.

I think that one of the dangers is to be paralyzed into doing nothing.  If one second guesses oneself, saying "I am not wise enough to act, I will have someone else tell me how to act" or "I am not smart enough" or "I am not a good person" or "I cannot do that asana, I am not flexible enough" you are already in deep trouble.  Wisdom is one of those words, which a wise man reaching, recedes ever into the distance.  To concern oneself with a "power" like wisdom is to seek the wrong goal.  There is a belief by by attaining these "powers" and performing certain actions (akin to a magical incantation) we please some higher power enough that they will give us what we so desperately want. Mistakes (or the wrong way) can totally occupy our thinking.  The sad part about this is generally it is ownly the good people that question their own goodness, are racked by guilt, question their own motives and this "goodness" is abused by people who do not have such good motives (who are sure of themselves, do not question the rightness of their thoughts and are unconcerned by questions like "What is the wrong way?").  Being a fool is not a sin, making sincere mistakes is not a sin, learning is a virtue, sincere open learning. I keep getting reminded where the word sincerity comes from.  The Roman marble column makers would stamp "sincerely" on the columns they made to signify they were made "without wax".  Insincere makers would conceal poor quality marble by filling in the voids with wax.  The deception would quickly be uncovered. Wade

Response:

The spiritual journey begins with sincerity and ends with wisdom. These two qualities do not arise together. A person can be very sincere, but may not have developed wisdom. They have confidence in their ability to move forward,

but And here we come to, I think, to the crux of the original question.  How is one who is not wise know when they are wise?  I cannot be when someone tells them, it cannot be based on a feeling.  What is the criteria used to judge? Is it even necessary to judge?  How can one know the ultimate consequences of ones actions (and thus maybe know whether ones actions were wise or foolish). I hope I have not come across as unkind to those who humbly follow a teacher or teachings.  It is not my intent.  If you have a teacher I hope that you are DECIDING to follow that teacher and are a sincere student.  Being a good (great) student means you have to actively learn and just not listen.  It means having the FAITH that you are doing the right thing and that you will be protected from negative forces.  Because you will, you just have to let them. Be a great sincere (without wax) student, the real McCoy. Absorb the lessons available all the time from your teachers, your readings, your everyday interactions with other people and the little divine lessons tossed in your path. Just like the Divine Light Invocation I am created by Divine Light. I am sustained by Divine Light. I am protected by Divine Light. I am surrounded by Divine Light. I am ever growing into Divine Light. Now why did I through that in?  Just came to mind, thats all! Wade

Response:

To be humble enough to receive the teachings of another does not imply any betrayal of self. Traditionally the teachings of yoga have been imparted from one who is qualified to teach to one who is qualified to learn. Seeking out one who is qualified to teach and becoming one who is qualified to learn is an age-old method of success in yoga. When people develop their own practice apart from any teacher or school, they often end up doing exactly those things which should not be done and avoiding those things which should be done. Then they build a beautiful spiritual philosophy all around their desires, with only a little bit of the Truth mixed in. They may be sincere to some extent, but their sincerity does not prevent them from practicing an eccentric kind of spirituality which is not true enlightenment. When people get spiritual awakening, they realize that spirituality is something quite different from the secular world in which most of us were raised. They may feel a natural longing to learn what is right and wrong in the light of this new knowledge. This is like what Christ said about being born again as little children. Much of what we have learned from the world turns out not to be useful in the spiritual life. So there is a need to learn things afresh. At time of spiritual awakening, people may be sincere but also naive. They can be preyed upon by others with destructive ideas about spirituality. There may also be aspects of their own nature which rebel against the spiritual light. Even as they are struggling towards the light, part of their nature may still be making choices based on ego and desire. Light and darkness are all mixed up inside them. So they are eager to ask questions of respected masters and read their writings. They feel that the masters can bring clarity to issues where the seeker’s own judgment is often clouded. Who is a good student? Some will say it is the student who is full of their own ideas and wisdom. Others will say it is the student who wants to learn everything from the beginning, who wants to make themselves an empty vessel so that they may be filled with a higher light which is not the wisdom of the world. The spiritual journey begins with sincerity and ends with wisdom. These two qualities do not arise together. A person can be very sincere, but may not have developed wisdom. They have confidence in their ability to move forward, but they are humble enough to know their own status. That is why they would rather quote from the teachings of a master than make up their own philosophy based on likes and dislikes which might still reflect ego and attachment. It is unkind to imply that those who are humble enough to bow to the wisdom of a teacher are simply lacking in self-confidence or decisiveness. Humility is a form of strength and courage, and to want to learn everything from the beginning like a child is the beginning of true wisdom. –outcast125

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Tara I’m sure you know that you can’t believe everything you read and hear. Of course you can be hurt doing just about anything; this includes yoga. There are, however, safe ways of going about things.  You can learn safe ways of doing yoga from your teacher, your classmates, observing your own reactions, asking questions, reading books, newsgroups, magazines, etc.  You have described your reactions to yoga as being positive.  That is very important!  This disturbing comment was so general, it seems to me quite meaningless.    People often try to cause fear in others for no reason.  Is there some  specific concern you have?  Perhaps that could be better addressed. Amy I think Amy makes some excellent points. Jody suggested that sincerity is all one needs to stay out of trouble. I think wisdom is also needed. A sincere person can be fooled into wrong action unless they also develop wisdom.

True sincerity generates its own wisdom.  If one has true, heart-deep sincerity, *everything* else will be taken care of. Part of this wisdom lies in knowing what things should be done and what things should not be done. This may vary from school to school. As Amy suggested, if someone is unclear about what things should be done and not done on the path they are following, asking the teacher or reading their writings is a good way to grow in wisdom. –outcast125

If one has recourse to a teacher, then one can take advantage of the blessing. However, many don’t have this advantage, and of the many people out there attempting to teach, very few actually know of what they speak. Therefore, one has only oneself to rely upon.  There are certainly dangers inherent in this approach, but only if the person is not blessed with true sincerity.  I guess you could derive a rule of sorts from this.  If you are confident that you are sincere, then you can trust your heart and the small still voice within.  If you are not confident of your sincerity, you’d do better to back off and wait for a teacher to show up.  However, the problem with this is that the true teacher won’t show up until the student is truly sincere.

Response:

Don’t worry about this. Enjoy your practice and all the benefits you are receiving. I don’t know what this person is talking about, but obviously, you will find that most people receive positive benefits from yoga.

Except someones like me. I used to go to a gymnasium and work out. Later for almost 6 months I have been to Yoga and had similar problems Tara mentioned. Now I am back to my Gym. I personally think exercise is an exercise and any of them would be make you physically and mentally active. As far as the spirituality goes , well its not an exercise:-) -Al

Response:

I’ve been reading some of the posts here and this comment in particular diturbed me: Since YOGA will act as a very very Slow poison if practised wrongly. Pseudo Comfort, Illusion of calmness, even some people get the illusion of achievement, self gratification etc I have been in a yoga class for 3 months now, and I have had marked positive results, mentally and physically; but I’m afraid of doing myself harm unwittingly.

He wrote the post back June of 2000 was warning people about the one size fits all nature of astanga yoga. His point of view was elucidated in the same post: Today in this materialistic world YOGA is another Money Making Materialistic Subject. Unless the teacher is really capable he cannot teach the right one. Their are multiple of case studies of people who have practised the wrong yoga and led themselves to pschygological problems.

The above passage is so wrong it is silly to refute it.  This is typical internet misinformation.  Tara you would do better to follow the advice of Betty, Amy, Outcast and Jody – and continue your practice and enjoy the benefits. — ~Stu

Response:

Hi Tara I’m sure you know that you can’t believe everything you read and hear. Of course you can be hurt doing just about anything; this includes yoga. There are, however, safe ways of going about things.  You can learn safe ways of doing yoga from your teacher, your classmates, observing your own reactions, asking questions, reading books, newsgroups, magazines, etc.  You have described your reactions to yoga as being positive.  That is very important!  This disturbing comment was so general, it seems to me quite meaningless.    People often try to cause fear in others for no reason.  Is there some  specific concern you have?  Perhaps that could be better addressed. Amy

I think Amy makes some excellent points. Jody suggested that sincerity is all one needs to stay out of trouble. I think wisdom is also needed. A sincere person can be fooled into wrong action unless they also develop wisdom. Part of this wisdom lies in knowing what things should be done and what things should not be done. This may vary from school to school. As Amy suggested, if someone is unclear about what things should be done and not done on the path they are following, asking the teacher or reading their writings is a good way to grow in wisdom. –outcast125

Response:

Hi Tara I’m sure you know that you can’t believe everything you read and hear. Of course you can be hurt doing just about anything; this includes yoga. There are, however, safe ways of going about things.  You can learn safe ways of doing yoga from your teacher, your classmates, observing your own reactions, asking questions, reading books, newsgroups, magazines, etc.  You have described your reactions to yoga as being positive.  That is very important!  This disturbing comment was so general, it seems to me quite meaningless.    People often try to cause fear in others for no reason.  Is there some  specific concern you have?  Perhaps that could be better addressed. Amy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been reading some of the posts here and this comment in particular diturbed me: Since YOGA will act as a very very Slow poison if practised wrongly. Pseudo Comfort, Illusion of calmness, even some people get the illusion of achievement, self gratification etc I have been in a yoga class for 3 months now, and I have had marked positive results, mentally and physically; but I’m afraid of doing myself harm unwittingly.

Response:

I’ve been reading some of the posts here and this comment in particular diturbed me: Since YOGA will act as a very very Slow poison if practised wrongly. Pseudo Comfort, Illusion of calmness, even some people get the illusion of achievement, self gratification etc

This statement is complete bullshit. If one is sincere in their practice, no harm can come of it. Sincerity is your guarantee of safety. I have been in a yoga class for 3 months now, and I have had marked positive results, mentally and physically; but I’m afraid of doing myself harm unwittingly.

Only your fear can harm you.  If you are sincere and moderate in your practice, you will be just fine.

Response:

I’ve been reading some of the posts here and this comment in particular diturbed me: Since YOGA will act as a very very Slow poison if practised wrongly. Pseudo Comfort, Illusion of calmness, even some people get the illusion of achievement, self gratification etc I have been in a yoga class for 3 months now, and I have had marked positive results, mentally and physically; but I’m afraid of doing myself harm unwittingly.

It’s hard to identify the issue out of context, but I will say this: It’s good to keep yoga as a "life practice" not a "class practice." Some people experience problems because they take yoga as a narrow subject which is separate from the rest of their lives. So they experience conflict and come to lead a kind of double life. Let your life grow with your yoga practice. You might gradually see a paradigm shift from "What can I get out of yoga?" to "What can I give to others?" At times you might need to choose between selfishness and self-giving. By choosing self-giving you will be putting yoga into practice. But some people only use the teachings and techniques of yoga for narrow personal gain. That would be one form of slow poison. There is nothing wrong with feeling a sense of calmness, joy and progress. Perhaps the objection raised is that one should not be constantly measuring one’s progress or counting gain and loss. It is said that those who want the highest should give everything to Truth and let Truth mold them into something beyond their imagination. That is the ideal, though I suppose it is beyond me and beyond most of us. But it is by straying from that ideal that so many corruptions of yoga come into being. A thief can use yoga to become a better thief. A pleasure-seeker can use yoga to get more pleasure. But these misuses of yoga are slow poison since they ultimately lead to greater attachment to worldly things, and away from God. –outcast125

Response:

I’ve been reading some of the posts here and this comment in particular diturbed me: Since YOGA will act as a very very Slow poison if practised wrongly. Pseudo Comfort, Illusion of calmness, even some people get the illusion of achievement, self gratification etc

Don’t worry about this. Enjoy your practice and all the benefits you are receiving. I don’t know what this person is talking about, but obviously, you will find that most people receive positive benefits from yoga.

Response:

I’ve been reading some of the posts here and this comment in particular diturbed me: Since YOGA will act as a very very Slow poison if practised wrongly. Pseudo Comfort, Illusion of calmness, even some people get the illusion of achievement, self gratification etc

I have been in a yoga class for 3 months now, and I have had marked positive results, mentally and physically; but I’m afraid of doing myself harm unwittingly.

Response:

Question:

Right on, betty. It cracks me up the way that leftists can get to be as dogmatic and narrow-minded as far-right bible thumpers. I don’t give a damn about enlightenment, stu.  I want a yoga butt.

Mr. Beans: I was under the impression that this was a usenet discussion group with *discussion* being the keyword here. Flaming is undignified. ____ ~Stu

Response:

That’s what happened to me.I’ve been involved in Boxing ,Running Cycling,Powerlifting etc …..yadda yadda.So I thought I’d give Yoga a whirl.And after my first time it felt like the closest thing to dropping acid or a religious experience I’ve ever had.I thought I was in great condition till I started Yoga.I think anyone who wants to try it for whatever reason be it TONED BUNS or the like will be pleasantly surprised of the spiritual benefits and I think anyone who tries it to reach NIRVANA will realize that to reach NIRVANA you will become strong,toned and acquire great endurance as a by product.

Response:

Could anybody tell me which type of yoga would be better and would make you physically more stronger with a toned look, Astanga or Ivengar?

I wouldn’t say that one style is better than another (both are different interpretations of Hatha yoga), but if you want a real physical workout, Ashtanga may be what you’re looking for. Iyengar is slower paced and starts from the bottom to make sure you approach all the postures correctly, whereas with Ashtanga, the philosophy is that you learn by doing. If you have the chance, you might want to do both. They seem opposite each other, but Iyengar will give you a good foundation that will help you with the Ashtanga. Make sure you join a beginners Ashtanga class–you don’t want to jump into the middle of that. You have to build up to it strengthwise. There are also a lot of other forms of Hatha yoga that you might want to look into. Best wishes. . .

Response:

Thank you Betty.  I only object to the reduction of Yoga to that of exercise.

I know you’re a good guy, Stu! My personal view is to get them on the mat, and then they’ll figure it out later. I think a lot of people who go into it for sheer physical benefits are surprised by the way the spiritual benefits start seeping in. Not in all cases, but hopefully in many. Namaste!

Response:

I have not heard any people from this tradition suggest  hatha yoga for a stronger toned look. I guess Stu does not like yoga to be linked with the word "exercise" at all. That’s ok, but I can assure you that in addition to the mind and spirit, yoga asanas will exercise your body and you will get toned all over. You might even sweat and get your heart rate up!

Thank you Betty.  I only object to the reduction of Yoga to that of exercise.  I would like the newbies here to understand that it is much more than "bun of steel.  I feel I have an obligation to say something when a poster refers to yoga a path for a toned look or that meditation is not yoga at all (refried beans yesterday).  I am sorry if in my few corrections ppl took me to be another inlight.  That was not my intention. ____ ~Stu

Response:

Erica, Sorry I forgot to answer your question in my post above.  If you want yoga but, Astanga is definitely the way to go.  It is rought starting out in Astanga if you don’t know the asanas and have at least a moderate level of fitness. But it all depends.  If you’re young, healthy, and reasonably fit, I’d say go ahead and do Astanga right off the bat.  You’ll have trouble keeping up at first, but it’s the same way if you try to do step aerobics. If you’re older or in poor shape, I’d start off with a softer, less vigorous form of yoga. If you’re somewhere in the middle (like me), then you’ll probably be OK in Astanga, esp. if you work at home with a book like Beryl Birch’s _Power Yoga_ or some of the Gaiam / Living Arts DVDs like "Yoga for Weight Loss" or the Stamina Rodney Yee one.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Could anybody tell me which type of yoga would be better and would make you physically more stronger with a toned look, Astanga or Ivengar? Best regards Erica

Response:

Right on, betty. It cracks me up the way that leftists can get to be as dogmatic and narrow-minded as far-right bible thumpers. I don’t give a damn about enlightenment, stu.  I want a yoga butt. Yes, I’m joking.  But what if I wasn’t?  Who is stu to tell everybody what yoga should be for them?  Who the hell does he think he is?  President of Yoga Fascists of America?  I’m sure some neo-nazis or racist groups would be happy to have him join. Damn, yes, I’m still joking.  But I think if you remove the pine cone from your ass you’ll find Warrior II more fulfilling.  No pun intended.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i know   i know — but i wish people would go a little easier on the "newbie" questions.  some of these folks are just kids.  and who cares why we started.  we all end up someplace. I agree. If someone expresses an interest in yoga for whatever reason, we should encourage them. Why turn them off with a bunch of holier than thou stuff?  I started because I was looking for some kind of "exercise" to do while I was waiting for a torn hamstring to heal. I had no idea how it was going to change my life!

Response:

 They seem opposite each other, but Iyengar will give you a good foundation that will help you with the Ashtanga. Make sure you join a beginners Ashtanga class–

I agree entirely w/ bettyrubble2001.  My advice, given my experience, would be to start w/ Iyengar to learn to do each pose correctly, then   move to Ashtanga.  I find Ashtanga classes more satisfying b/c they work out every part of the body, & I love the flow of movement w/ breath.  Too often in Iyengar classes there’s a lot of time standing around watching the instructor demo the asana.  But I’m glad I took a year of Iyengar yoga classes first.

Response:

Could anybody tell me which type of yoga would be better and would make you physically more stronger with a toned look, Astanga or Ivengar?

I regard myself as a proponent of yoga practice and of course believe everyone should at least experience yoga (any style).  But if your real goal is to "gain physical strength and a toned look," I would suggest doing something else like Pilates or weight training.  Either will accomplish that goal faster and more efficiently. Personally, I believe that if you are looking to yoga for just physical benefits, you will be disappointed and quit.  To me, the benefits of yoga practice come to the brain.  I know that is what keeps me going. But, by all means, try yoga.  Be open to what you learn and don’t think of the physicality.  Style, I believe is unimportant.  It is a personal preference. My advice is to find a good teacher no matter his or her style. Gary Echternacht

Response:

i know   i know — but i wish people would go a little easier on the "newbie" questions.  some of these folks are just kids.  and who cares why we started.  we all end up someplace.

I agree. If someone expresses an interest in yoga for whatever reason, we should encourage them. Why turn them off with a bunch of holier than thou stuff?  I started because I was looking for some kind of "exercise" to do while I was waiting for a torn hamstring to heal. I had no idea how it was going to change my life!

Response:

I have not heard any people from this tradition suggest  hatha yoga for a stronger toned look.

I guess Stu does not like yoga to be linked with the word "exercise" at all. That’s ok, but I can assure you that in addition to the mind and spirit, yoga asanas will exercise your body and you will get toned all over. You might even sweat and get your heart rate up!

Response:

Hi, Could anybody tell me which type of yoga would be better and would make you physically more stronger with a toned look, Astanga or Ivengar? Best regards Erica

I would suggest about 20-40 minutes of cardio and 20-40 minutes of free wieght repetitions 3 or 4 times a week.  Also it would be desirable to have a high protien low fat diet. This willl get you a strong and toned look.  An hour with a good personal trainer once a month to guide your progress will insure you use the wieghts correctly. Both Ashtanga and Iyengar methods of Hatha yoga come from the same root teacher, a man named Krishnamacharya.  I have not heard any people from this tradition suggest  hatha yoga for a stronger toned look. ___ Stu

Response:

 Hi, Could anybody tell me which type of yoga would be better and would make you physically more stronger with a toned look, Astanga or Ivengar? Best regards Erica

Response:

Question:

I think many people have a narrow view of yoga and where help comes from, whether it be physical healing, mental peace, good relationships or any other thing you can name.  The example of taking medicene, in my mind, is yourself giving a helping hand (in a round about way), though the help appears from an outside source.  Taking medicene can be the acceptance of circumstance and taking what the universe is offering for help "right now". Have a little faith that what you have to do right now (take medicene) is the right thing, fighting will not help. The view that we can plug in to some "spiritual power", channel "energy" through our systems and "heal" ourselves is simplistic.  Most people go to doctors, most people take medicene, most people are ill or will be ill and all people die. Yoga is about everything in our lives and our interaction with them. Physical, mental and spiritual.  The approach can be balance all these things, physical (medicene), mental (ordering, analysis) and spiritual (contact and knowledge of who we really are). I take medicene for a condition but I just tell myself that I am not my body and I treat as my body as something that has to be looked after with good food, exercise, hatha yoga practice, medicene, washing, etc.  I put a little distance between between myself and my body and thus do not see taking medicene as a weakness or "wrong" or "giving in" to the physical world. Since I have stopped fighting those thoughts I have been much healthier. Wade

Response:

You may not believe that yoga can improve people’s mental balance and mood, but many yoga practitioners have attested to this. I respect their experience just as I respect yours.

I think Outcast has written very intelligently and sensitively on this subject. It is believed that yoga can make real changes in brain chemistry, which is what the medications are supposed to do as well.  Of course there aren’t many clinical trials conducted on yoga like there are on pharmaceuticals, so Dr’s aren’t as likely to recommend it. However, this is slowly changing in the West as Dr’s can’t ignore the anecdotal evidence of alternative health care benefits. Everybody has to weigh the options and make the best health care decisions for themselves, whether it is yoga,  medication, or a combination of both.  Best wishes to you.

Response:

Outcast, This has been an interesting debate.  I’m perfectly willing to let it go at that, but I want to clarify my own position better, for the record. First, I do not believe that the AMA view is the only correct one.  I, too, am a relativist, but one of the toughest issues for relativists is where to draw the line between tolerance of other people’s beliefs and standing up for what you believe is right or true, even if you acknowledge the multiplicity and relativism of truth.  You didn’t address the question of whether you would urge cancer or cardiac patients to try to kill cancer cells or open their arteries with yoga alone.  I welcome other traditions–I think it’s fantastic if a Navajo turns to a medicine man when ill–but I would not urge that Navajo to rely _only_ upon the medicine man.  Would you? That said, I do not hold to a rigid, Western division between body and mind/spirit, and I do not think that chemistry is the only answer–if that is indeed the AMA view, which I tend to doubt.  It seems you’ve set up the "AMA position" as a straw man.  Most psychiatrists, I think, would urge their Prozac patients to excercise, become more involved in the world, eat well, etc.  They urge you to heal yourself using many different tools–excersise, diet, interaction, and medication–which is a more nuanced and holistic approach than you give them credit for.  Most would probably even encourage taking up yoga or meditation. While you admonish me to be more flexible, I sense an underlying lack of flexibility in your own position, a begrudging admission that my view is OK for me, but that it might not be "true" for everybody.  You treat my "belief" in medical, clinical depression as one "belief" amongst many, which, on one level, it is.  At the same time, not all beliefs are equal. Believing that the sun will rise tomorrow is not on the same level as choosing to believe in ghosts.  We do not value the beliefs of hate groups even if we allow them freedom of speech.  Believing that scientific experime nts have shown Prozac to be very effective in treating depression is not on the same level as believing that if I pray to Jesus enough he will heal me, or in crystals, or what have you. I urge people to pay attention to the _limits_ of these different approaches.  Medicine men, yoga, and prayer are all effective in healing people, but most people would recognize that without bypass surgery, that cardiac patient will die.  Bypass surgery may fix the plumbing, but won’t heal any of the other damage that was done.  There are limits to western science just as there are limits to non-western, holistic traditions.  One might even say that they need each other to be truly whole. Prozac can’t make you happy.  It won’t make your life fulfilling.  Prozac won’t give you peace.  It CAN stop you from wishing you were dead or laying in bed all day.  Prozac will enable you to get out of bed in the morning after a good night’s sleep.  What you do after that is up to you.  I’d suggest a sun salutation… Namaste, rb ps  They way depression works, it could be that you really pretty much CAN’T do yoga.  You truly don’t have enough energy or motivation.  It can be that bad.  Prozac will give you some of that energy and motivation back.  It can therefore ALLOW you to do yoga, or anything else that you want, to live your life in short.  Which is precisely what depression prevents you from doing. "

Response:

My point is that clinical depression is _not_ a spiritual, or even psychological, problem.  And you should not confuse clinical depression with the various problems people have in their lives, ordinary grief, and so forth.  Clinical depression is a _medical_ disease.  You wouldn’t recommend that somebody treat breast cancer or heart disease solely with yoga, and neither should you recommend that somebody treat depression solely with yoga. Most people don’t realize that depression is a real medical problem, not simply a spritual or psychological one.  There is a great deal of resistance towards seeing mental illness as "real."

[snip] Dear Reified, I respect your right to hold the A.M.A. view on depression if that’s what works for you. But it continues to trouble me that you insist the A.M.A. view is the only correct view. If it were possible, I would ask you to be more flexible. You may not believe that yoga can improve people’s mental balance and mood, but many yoga practitioners have attested to this. I respect their experience just as I respect yours. You believe in something called "clinical depression" which you see as a bedrock medical condition demanding chemical intervention. Yoga, on the other hand, is one of many spiritual traditions which views mind-body-spirit holistically, and which uses holistic means to try and heal the total person. Each person has to decide for themselves how much faith they place in medical science and in yoga. Since this is a yoga newsgroup, I feel it’s important that people get the support they need for yogic solutions. Most of the world adopts the familiar scientific rationalist view in such matters. This newsgroup is, among other things, a refuge for people seeking a different way. So while I respect your faith in psychopharmacology, I *do* in fact encourage people to give yoga their best effort before resorting to anti-depressants. By the way, to say that people can treat depression with yoga practice does not imply that depression is not "real." You may have certain beliefs about yoga which could limit its effectiveness for you; i.e., that yoga can only affect vague, subjective spiritual issues, but that drugs are required to treat anything which has physical manifestations. However, yoga says that the causes of physical manifestations are found at a subtle level which medical science does not recognize, but which yoga practice can address. So yes, depression is a real problem, and yoga is a real solution. I respect your choices, but there is much known to yogis that is not known to medical science. Here in the yoga newsgroup, people should feel support for trying purely yogic solutions to problems such as insomnia and depression. Best wishes, and thanks for an interesting debate. –outcast125

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Outcast, By no means would I deliberately pretend to know the "full capacity of yoga to help people turn their lives around." At one point in my life I would have agreed with you completely, especially your justifiable skepticism regarding psychiatry and psychopharmacology. You said, I support people’s right to choose how they want to treat a problem. One person might choose purely spiritual means, another might choose medical means, and a third might choose a combination of the two.

My point is that clinical depression is _not_ a spiritual, or even psychological, problem.  And you should not confuse clinical depression with the various problems people have in their lives, ordinary grief, and so forth.  Clinical depression is a _medical_ disease.  You wouldn’t recommend that somebody treat breast cancer or heart disease solely with yoga, and neither should you recommend that somebody treat depression solely with yoga.  People do have a right to choose how they want to treat problems–you can refuse the angioplasty or bypass surgery or masectomy, radiaion, and chemo–but to encourage somebody to refuse bypass surgery is a fringe belief held largely by Christian Scienticists. I assume that if you had a heart attack and the physicians recommened bypass surgery, you would go along with that without a fuss.  You wouldn’t try a number of inverted poses or so forth to increase circulation, and you wouldn’t see it as a spiritual matter.  Clinical depressive and anxiety disorders are no different, and they kill more people (via suicide) every year than heart disease and cancer. Most people don’t realize that depression is a real medical problem, not simply a spritual or psychological one.  There is a great deal of resistance towards seeing mental illness as "real." At any rate, I wouldn’t suggest that anybody take antidepressants as a first response to insomnia.  Yet, insomnia is so commonly a symptom of depression that I would urge people to have themselves checked out. It’s tragic how many people suffer for years and years with depression and never seek medical help.

Response:

If you have serious insomnia, I’d consult a doctor or psychiatrist. Insomnia is often a symptom of depression and anxiety disorders, and you mention your need to release tension and stress, which also points in that direction.  Make sure you aren’t trying to treat a bona fide medical disorder with yoga.  It won’t work. You could easily be suffering from depression and not know it, not even really feel "sad" or "depressed."  Yoga is great in addition to my medications, etc., but the medications are crucial.  You can’t treat depression on your own.  You can’t.

Dear Reified, I’m glad you’ve found a combination approach that works for you. But meaning no offense, I have to disagree with you on some things. I suppose what troubles me about your post is that it purports to know the full capacity of yoga to help people turn their lives around, then launches into a commercial for the A.M.A. party line – with quotes from a web site which, if I’m not mistaken, is partly funded by the pharmecutical industry. I support people’s right to choose how they want to treat a problem. One person might choose purely spiritual means, another might choose medical means, and a third might choose a combination of the two. I respect your belief that you can’t treat your condition without medication, but I would ask you to recognize that each person is different, and that some people seem to conquer their problems through the application of purely spiritual means. (To say that people are using purely spiritual means does not imply they’re "doing it alone." Many forms of yoga include having a teacher, practicing with other students, and of course, making a living connection with God, Goddess, Truth, or the higher Self.) It’s not clear to me that the chemical model championed by the A.M.A to explain various psychological ailments tells the full story, or even half the story. Yoga goes deeper than the physical, and the benefits of yoga practice may include improved mental balance and chemical balance. Since I have more faith in yoga than in medicine, if someone who’s interested in yoga asked me how to treat insomnia and related ailments, I would encourage them to try yoga alone, give that a chance to work, and see how they feel. Then if they’re convinced they need the help of medicine, that road is always open to them. If by "yoga" one means "postures alone," then perhaps that would not be enough. But when we rejoin the limb with the tree, we find that yoga can include such additional elements as philosophy, lifestyle, diet, prayer, meditation, selfless work, and the guidance of a teacher. Quite simply, yoga can bring more peace and joy in life. This is true not just in the abstract, but in the concrete sense that people can learn to meditate specifically to receive those qualities they need. If a person needs more peace in their life, a qualified teacher can help them work towards peace, and may be able to give them a specific practice to help them get to sleep at night. Like I said, I’m glad you’ve found a combination that works for you. I just think people should know that they don’t have to run straight to the psychiatrist or the pharmacy without first giving yoga their best shot. Peace. –outcast125 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From WebMD: http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1680.52715 Emotional Disorders. A large percentage of chronic insomnia cases prove to have a serious psychologic or psychological basis. The disorders that most often cause insomnia are chronic anxiety, depression, and bipolar (manic) depression. At least 70% of people with depression complain of insomnia. Depression has been associated with abnormal levels of certain stress hormones that can impair sleep are similar to those associated with aging. It should be noted, however, that insomnia may also cause emotional problems and it is often unclear which condition has triggered the other. http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1680.50544 Some studies have shown that only one in 10 Americans with depression get adequate treatment. When left untreated, depression can interfere with personal relationships and job performance and can increase your risk for other illnesses, according to a panel organized by the National Depressive and Manic Depressive Association. It’s the fourth leading public health problem in the world, yet only one in every three suffering from depression ever seeks help. Major depression can be very hard to recognize, because it’s a chronic, progressive disease. If you have major depression, you may go into remission, but chances are that without treatment, it usually strikes again, more quickly and more powerfully than before. Are You Depressed? Emotions: Do you feel ineffably sad or cry a great deal? Appetite/weight: Have you gained or lost weight? Do you binge or overeat? Sleep: Do you have chronic insomnia or excessive sleepiness? Are you tired all the time, regardless how much sleep you get? Anger: Do you experience outbursts of complaints or shouting? Have you been feeling resentful and angry? Outlook: Have you lost interest in hobbies or activities that you formerly enjoyed? Libido: Have you lost interest in sex? Self-esteem: Do you feel worthless, unattractive, inappropriately guilty? Concentration: Do you have a hard time concentrating? Are your thoughts muddy or foggy? Anxiety: Do you brood, have phobias, delusions or fears? Restlessness: Do you have trouble sitting still? Muted affect: Do you have slow body movements and speech? Suicide: Have you thought you’d be better off dead?

Response:

If you have serious insomnia, I’d consult a doctor or psychiatrist. Insomnia is often a symptom of depression and anxiety disorders, and you mention your need to release tension and stress, which also points in that direction.  Make sure you aren’t trying to treat a bona fide medical disorder with yoga.  It won’t work. You could easily be suffering from depression and not know it, not even really feel "sad" or "depressed."  Yoga is great in addition to my medications, etc., but the medications are crucial.  You can’t treat depression on your own.  You can’t. From WebMD: http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1680.52715 Emotional Disorders. A large percentage of chronic insomnia cases prove to have a serious psychologic or psychological basis. The disorders that most often cause insomnia are chronic anxiety, depression, and bipolar (manic) depression. At least 70% of people with depression complain of insomnia. Depression has been associated with abnormal levels of certain stress hormones that can impair sleep are similar to those associated with aging. It should be noted, however, that insomnia may also cause emotional problems and it is often unclear which condition has triggered the other. http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1680.50544 Some studies have shown that only one in 10 Americans with depression get adequate treatment. When left untreated, depression can interfere with personal relationships and job performance and can increase your risk for other illnesses, according to a panel organized by the National Depressive and Manic Depressive Association. It’s the fourth leading public health problem in the world, yet only one in every three suffering from depression ever seeks help. Major depression can be very hard to recognize, because it’s a chronic, progressive disease. If you have major depression, you may go into remission, but chances are that without treatment, it usually strikes again, more quickly and more powerfully than before. Are You Depressed? Emotions: Do you feel ineffably sad or cry a great deal? Appetite/weight: Have you gained or lost weight? Do you binge or overeat? Sleep: Do you have chronic insomnia or excessive sleepiness? Are you tired all the time, regardless how much sleep you get? Anger: Do you experience outbursts of complaints or shouting? Have you been feeling resentful and angry? Outlook: Have you lost interest in hobbies or activities that you formerly enjoyed? Libido: Have you lost interest in sex? Self-esteem: Do you feel worthless, unattractive, inappropriately guilty? Concentration: Do you have a hard time concentrating? Are your thoughts muddy or foggy? Anxiety: Do you brood, have phobias, delusions or fears? Restlessness: Do you have trouble sitting still? Muted affect: Do you have slow body movements and speech? Suicide: Have you thought you’d be better off dead?

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One suggestion that I’ve heard is to do everything you need to do to get ready for bed (brush teeth, wash, etc.), then right next to your bed do a 3 – 5 minute sarvangasana (shoulderstand) followed by 3 – 5 minute halasana (plow pose).  Keep the room fairly dark, the eyes closed, the throat relaxed and the breathing gentle.  After halasana immediately get into bed — no fussing around with putting away props.  A restful way to do halasana is to rest the thighs on a chair instead of taking the feet to the floor. In classes when we’ve done a long halasana with the thighs supported, people come out of the pose with very quiet faces. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Although yoga is helping me to release tension and stress sometimes I find myself unable to fall asleep at night. I wonder if there is any breathing technique or particukar asana I should practise towards this purpose beside the obvious savasana. thanks P

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I often find my mind is still active when I am about to sleep. The biggest problem about getting to sleep is fretting over not being able to sleep. So, give your mind something to do – something dull, and it will soon get bored and nod off. What I do is the good old fashioned counting, but with each number I focus on a limb and bring my awareness to it and relax it and then on to the next. 10 down to 0 going from toes to head, when I get to my face there is obvious tension in the eyes and cheeks. Just doing this a few times helps the body (well mine I mean) relax and takes your mind off fretting about being unable to sleep. have a lovely cup of valerian/passionflower tea as well.. best wishes Sue – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Doing a series of forward bends with long holds and slow, deep breathing is supposed to be relaxing. You can do several standing forward bends, then move to seated. Do variations like cross-legged, half-lotus, one-leg in/one out, wide-leg, etc. Take your time and make this a slow, relaxing practice. If I find my mind wandering at night, I lay in savasana in my bed and concentrate on my breathing, not locking on to any thoughts. I usually fall asleep within minutes then.

Response:

Although yoga is helping me to release tension and stress sometimes I find myself unable to fall asleep at night. I wonder if there is any breathing technique or particukar asana I should practise towards this purpose beside the obvious savasana. thanks P

Response:

I find myself unable to fall asleep at night. I wonder if there is any breathing technique or particukar asana I should practise towards this purpose beside the obvious savasana.

Doing a series of forward bends with long holds and slow, deep breathing is supposed to be relaxing. You can do several standing forward bends, then move to seated. Do variations like cross-legged, half-lotus, one-leg in/one out, wide-leg, etc. Take your time and make this a slow, relaxing practice. If I find my mind wandering at night, I lay in savasana in my bed and concentrate on my breathing, not locking on to any thoughts. I usually fall asleep within minutes then.

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Question:

I agree with Amy.  Yoga feels good!!   Eventually finding that place inside yourself where comparison no longer matters is part of the journey too.  And wondering is totally natural too.  I know someone who can do all sorts of pretzel-like contorsions and its hard believe that she was once restricted by arthritis.  I wonder at all the effort  and patience it took. Me, I have bad knees and past back problems.  Last month I totally surprised myself in a standing forward bend by touching the floor with my knuckles. I was enjoying the pose and it just happened. Keep enjoying yourself!  And let us know how it goes Annie

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Hi, I am a spiritual "iron bar". I am making progress (I think / hope), but the trouble is that progress just makes me increasingly realise the extent of the "total cretinism" , of my past life and attitudes. It is too late to do anything about this now, I can only try to improve. I will not give up . I doubt this is very encouraging as such, but just don’t give up. Pathetic though I am, I have achieved a few things I thought I would never be able to do – simply by never actually giving up – close though I have come. I know that I will "succeed" at Yoga, because there is no alternative. What is your alternative ? A rusty iron bar ? . Don’t give up. Ever . Best Wishes Santashi

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Hi, I desperately need some encouragement from more experienced people. I’m beginner with a stiff body, I’m like iron all around. (I’m doing Ashtanga and I’m a woman). I have experienced some progress and exercise makes me feel very good. I also know that this is my journey, my body and my progress – that I shouldn’t compare myself to others. But I can’t help wondering; have all those very flexible persons been some kind of natural wonders, former athletes, blessed with superior genes, etc. I’d love to hear a story of a former iron bar

I’m not extremely flexible myself, but I have become more so over the time I’ve been doing yoga.  When I first started, I could not grasp my ankles when doing upside down bow pose and had to use a strap. Now I’m able to muddle my way into it.  It may seem like a small improvement, but I started at about age 40 and I’m pleased to see myself improving in flexibility rather than declining (I’m now 43). Also, I had never done handstands in my life.  Now I’m at the point where I’m working on balancing without the aid of a wall. I still need the wall to go into it, but I then move my feet away for a few seconds before coming down. Anyway, I guess I’m not a "former iron bar",  because I still have a way to go.  But I was more self conscious of my limitations when I first started, like you.  As I’ve experienced these incremental improvements, I’ve found that that’s where the satisfaction lies and worry less about what I’m not able to do, trusting that more ability will come with time. -Ed

Response:

Hi Karneoli: Welcome to the newsgroup.  Each individual has her/his own journey. It’s really not relevant to your body what other bodies can do, is it? I think it’s wonderful you have experienced some progress already.  Keep reminding yourself that.  Like Bettyrubble, I also laugh at myself sometimes. What has been keeping me motivated despite my limitations, imperfections and flaws, is the fact that yoga FEELS GOOD.  I feel better doing it than not doing it.  It’s its own reward.  If as a side benefit, my ego gets gratified because my body improves its performance in the asanas relative to other people in the class, that’s fine – as long as I don’t get hubris or arrogant or forgetful of where I was when I started. Far more important than performance are the lessons of patience, persistence, gentleness, and acceptance of reality as it is.  Your body is what it is, like it or not.  Accept it with loving kindness, and work patiently to improve from there. Amy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I desperately need some encouragement from more experienced people. I’m beginner with a stiff body, I’m like iron all around. (I’m doing Ashtanga and I’m a woman). I have experienced some progress and exercise makes me feel very good. I also know that this is my journey, my body and my progress – that I shouldn’t compare myself to others. But I can’t help wondering; have all those very flexible persons been some kind of natural wonders, former athletes, blessed with superior genes, etc. I’d love to hear a story of a former iron bar greetings, Karneoli

Response:

Hi, I desperately need some encouragement from more experienced people. I’m beginner with a stiff body, I’m like iron all around. (I’m doing Ashtanga and I’m a woman). I have experienced some progress and exercise makes me feel very good. I also know that this is my journey, my body and my progress – that I shouldn’t compare myself to others. But I can’t help wondering; have all those very flexible persons been some kind of natural wonders, former athletes, blessed with superior genes, etc. I’d love to hear a story of a former iron bar greetings, Karneoli

Response:

I desperately need some encouragement from more experienced people.

Well here is some encouragement: Not all of those flexible yogis you see were always flexible. Be patient and enjoy the journey. Your body will open slowly with time and you’ll be amazed at the changes you will make. I was never a flexible person–I had short tendons, and numerous hamstring injuries and pulled muscles made my legs very stiff. Sitting in a chair all the time makes you stiff too. I also had Olive Oil arms w/ no upper-body strength. Anyway, when I first started yoga, I would laugh at myself sometimes because I’d be sitting almost straight up during forward bend. I figured I would never be able to do it like the instructor, and there were many other asanas I thought would be impossible for me. Every day I made a little more progress, and low and behold, I am now quite flexible and pretty strong too. I still have many things to work towards, but now I know that nothing is impossible. I recommend spending some extra time at home working on areas that are particularly difficult for you–doing a series of asanas for that particular area and doing long, slow holds with deep breathing. Take heart and take time. As long as you are in proper alignment and doing the breathing, you will get the benefits of yoga. Namaste!

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Question:

though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet. ahhhhhhhhhhhh, grasshopper, that is the true beauty of rosie  Hey all

Had to laugh so hard at this rosie! My yogazone tape has the guy (can’t remember his name at the mo) teaching a position and then saying "are you pushing through this position? Are you trying to WIN yoga??!!" lol Yogazone is great–i do it after my stationary bike most days. laurieapril 308/292/? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got a Yoga Journal’s Yoga Relaxation Tape by Rodney Yee ($15.00 in Canada) and just watching it is relaxing and beautiful. However even though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet. My impression of Yoga– it appears very positive and worthwhile pursuing.  In this complex and stressful world it is truly a blessing to master relaxation.  The tape is also available with something else included. I wish it were a CD of the music on the tape so i could hear it in the larger room where I will do the Yoga.  The first part of the tape has some spam for related products but I enjoyed that too! I have a very stressful job, and I was wondering if yoga would help, my boss does it and she loves it.  To get the full benefits from yoga, do you have to be physically fit? Jen — Diva "Success is Planned"

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though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet.

ahhhhhhhhhhhh, grasshopper, that is the true beauty of rosie —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got a Yoga Journal’s Yoga Relaxation Tape by Rodney Yee ($15.00 in Canada) and just watching it is relaxing and beautiful. However even though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet. My impression of Yoga– it appears very positive and worthwhile pursuing.  In this complex and stressful world it is truly a blessing to master relaxation.  The tape is also available with something else included. I wish it were a CD of the music on the tape so i could hear it in the larger room where I will do the Yoga.  The first part of the tape has some spam for related products but I enjoyed that too! I have a very stressful job, and I was wondering if yoga would help, my boss does it and she loves it.  To get the full benefits from yoga, do you have to be physically fit? Jen — Diva "Success is Planned"

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jen, people at all levels of fitness can participate in yoga. start here: www.yogazone.com —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a very stressful job, and I was wondering if yoga would help, my boss does it and she loves it.  To get the full benefits from yoga, do you have to be physically fit? Jen

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I just got a Yoga Journal’s Yoga Relaxation Tape by Rodney Yee ($15.00 in Canada) and just watching it is relaxing and beautiful. However even though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet.   My impression of Yoga– it appears very positive and worthwhile pursuing.  In this complex and stressful world it is truly a blessing to master relaxation.  The tape is also available with something else included. I wish it were a CD of the music on the tape so i could hear it in the larger room where I will do the Yoga.  The first part of the tape has some spam for related products but I enjoyed that too! I have a very stressful job, and I was wondering if yoga would help, my boss does it and she loves it.  To get the full benefits from yoga, do you have to be physically fit? Jen

– Diva "Success is Planned"

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I have a very stressful job, and I was wondering if yoga would help, my boss does it and she loves it.  To get the full benefits from yoga, do you have to be physically fit? Jen

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fred, i find yoga to be a spiritual journey, indeed! rosie —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I often think of Yoga and stuff but as a Christian the spirit  involvment bothers me. As far as I am aware Yoga isn’t just exercise it is a kind of religion. Does anyone know of something similar that doesn’t involve the spirit as such Bernard though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet. ahhhhhhhhhhhh, grasshopper, that is the true beauty of rosie  Hey all Had to laugh so hard at this rosie! My yogazone tape has the guy (can’t remember his name at the mo) teaching a position and then saying "are you pushing through this position? Are you trying to WIN yoga??!!" lol Yogazone is great–i do it after my stationary bike most days. laurieapril 308/292/? I just got a Yoga Journal’s Yoga Relaxation Tape by Rodney Yee ($15.00 in Canada) and just watching it is relaxing and beautiful. However even though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet. My impression of Yoga– it appears very positive and worthwhile pursuing.  In this complex and stressful world it is truly a blessing to master relaxation.  The tape is also available with something else included. I wish it were a CD of the music on the tape so i could hear it in the larger room where I will do the Yoga.  The first part of the tape has some spam for related products but I enjoyed that too! I have a very stressful job, and I was wondering if yoga would help, my boss does it and she loves it.  To get the full benefits from yoga, do you have to be physically fit? Jen — Diva "Success is Planned"

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conscious unconscious No spirit involvement on Yoga Journal’s "Yoga Relaxation" with Rodney Yee.  It is just a video, just a calm voice, soft music and a naturally proportioned woman demonstrating a few basic positions. Carol, can you really be sure that there is not some "subliminal message, being sent to you about devil worship or some such thing.  After all you can’t trust those Yoga people because they are not the chosen people that make up one/seventh of the  earth’s population.  <G

– Diva "Success is Planned"

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No spirit involvement on Yoga Journal’s "Yoga Relaxation" with Rodney Yee.  It is just a video, just a calm voice, soft music and a naturally proportioned woman demonstrating a few basic positions.

Carol, can you really be sure that there is not some "subliminal message, being sent to you about devil worship or some such thing.  After all you can’t trust those Yoga people because they are not the chosen people that make up one/seventh of the  earth’s population.  <G

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I often think of Yoga and stuff but as a Christian the spirit  involvment bothers me. As far as I am aware Yoga isn’t just exercise it is a kind of religion. Does anyone know of something similar that doesn’t involve the spirit as such You obviously are very proud of the fact that you are a "Christian."  It

is a shame that many of the present day adult followers of Christ  (like yourself) have become so suspicious of anything that is not theirs, that they have lost the ability to reach their own conclusions based on their own observations.  Does this remind you of anyone in the life and times of Christ?   If Yoga is a "kind of religion" than it certainly is one that encourages people to think for themselves and deal with reality on many levels.  Did you know that Darwin invented Yoga?  <G

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Hatha yoga and ashtanga yoga are generally not attached to the Hindu systems of religion.  Spirituality is good for Christians, you know. Spirituality and Christianity *should* be synonymous, and there are many yoga classes that will fit in with your religion without a hitch.  In fact, one of the main gripes with lots of yoga classes in the city is that the word "God" is used occasionally, which seems very Christian to some people who aren’t (but they usually deal, and translate "God" in their minds to whatever fits in with their beliefs).  Unless you are Catholic and believe that the only way to deal with God is through a priest, yoga and any form of spiritual alignment, prayerful meditation, etc., shouldn’t pose a problem to you.  Shop around; all classes are different. If you want strictly the physical movements and none of the spiritual aspects, go take a yoga class offered through your gym, a fitness center, or the local Y.   Mary S. — Mary Sweathe San Francisco, CA 160+/120/buff

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conscious unconscious

Mars is in opposition tonight, don’t you have to go charge your crystal ball or something?

Response:

I understand the caution about the spirituality of yoga, and being leery of it. I went through it a bit, and thought I would describe my experience. I did Iyengar yoga for 12 years, and thought I was going to teach it, until something just snapped. I was too jumpy and probably too young to meditate and just wasn’t interested — I wanted to work out, and being American (I guess that is the reason, but who knows), I didn’t want to spend all that time breathing. I wasn’t interested in going to India and thought the politics of the institute were stupid at best, and destructive at worst. And finally (this was the most damning thing to my fellow yoga types), I wanted to play sports and go to the gym. I wanted yoga to be something I did along with other stuff, not a way of life. My "lack of seriousness" didn’t fly well in that atmosphere, and now I take yoga at my gym, and there is a part of me that disapproves of the class’s lack of purity. But you know, I can disapprove of something and still do it and get a lot of benefit from it. Yoga is a brilliant system, and (despite my Iyengar brainwashing), works no matter what technique you do. The poses are the same poses — the difference is the teacher and how they deal with the execution. That said, I wish that I had more perspective when I started, and a clearer idea of what I wanted and who I was. I would have distanced myself from the institute junk and probably had a lot less of a problem with it. So if you are worried about the chanting and the religion, I would advise you to ignore it. Don’t chant if you don’t want to. But if you leave the class, and you feel stretched out and more relaxed and you have a clearer idea of where your body is in space, then you are taking a good class. The rest is noise. And yes, yoga does have a religious origin, but hey, the blues came partly out of Christian hymns, and I don’t think listening to it means you are going to become a zombie and immediately show up at your neighborhood Baptist church. We’re really lucky (although many would say that we are also really cavalier about other cultures, but I say lucky) to be able to indugle in so many different traditions. Yoga is a terrific way to exercise, and I hope people find a class they like and really enjoy it. best, p-celle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I often think of Yoga and stuff but as a Christian the spirit involvment bothers me. As far as I am aware Yoga isn’t just exercise it is a kind of religion. Does anyone know of something similar that doesn’t involve the spirit as such You obviously are very proud of the fact that you are a "Christian."  It is a shame that many of the present day adult followers of Christ  (like yourself) have become so suspicious of anything that is not theirs, that they have lost the ability to reach their own conclusions based on their own observations.  Does this remind you of anyone in the life and times of Christ?   If Yoga is a "kind of religion" than it certainly is one that encourages people to think for themselves and deal with reality on many levels.  Did you know that Darwin invented Yoga?  <G

Response:

this is true of ALL organizations, religious or otherwise! rosie —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve found yoga to be very beneficial, on all levels – physical and mental. It increases your control over your body….something that is very useful if you’re dieting However, Fred has raised a point that is also important.  You really have to be careful about where you study. Some of these "yoga schools" are really religious cults seeking new converts.  That is often the reason they seem so "slow and easy", as previously discussed. For example, one that you should definitely stay away from is the Integral Yoga Institute…a/k/a Yogaville, run by Swami Satchidananda. Some former members/swamis and their families have discussed these abuses at http://www.rickross.com/groups/yogaville.html. I was sexually abused by a yoga teacher of the Iyengar style. I ran an informal support group for others who had been abused. I got letters from all over the world and there is not a single style of yoga that I know of which has not had horrific scandal. Mr. Iyengar, for example, has no history of sexually abusing his students but one of his senior students raped a 16 year old girl and Mr. Iyengar did not strip him of his "advanced yoga" title. Mr. Iyengar did not strip the Iyengar teacher who abused me of his title. You have to be very careful out there. Get out if it seems like a cult. Ari

Response:

I believe you can practice Yoga without it being a religious experience and even it has vestiges of religious reference they are all in a positive, healing and benign context. You don’t have to embrace Buddha to relax. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found this on a website and have seen similar definitions elsewhere. I once had an Indian girlfriend (wasn’t allowed in South Africa at the time). In the Indian township she lived there were many Yoga Schools and way it was explained to me Yoga in its true sense is a religous exercise. What is Yoga? The word Yoga is derived from the Sanskrit root yuj meaning to bind, join, attach and yoke, to direct and concentrate one’s attention on, to use and apply. It also means union or communion. It is the true union of our will with the will of God. ‘It thus means,’ says Mahadev Desai in his introduction to the Gita according to Gandhi, ‘the yoking of all the powers of body, mind and soul to God; it means the disciplining of the intellect, the mind, the emotions, the will, which that Yoga presupposes; it means a poise of the soul which enables one to look at life in all its aspects evenly.’ Yoga is one of the six orthodox systems of Indian philosophy. It was collated, co-ordinated and systematised by Patanjali in his classical work, the Yoga Sutras, which consists of 185 terse aphorisms. In Indian thought, everything is permeated by the Supreme Universal Spirit (Paramatma or God) of which the individual human spirit (jivatma) is a part. The system of yoga is so called because it teaches the means by which the jivatma can be united to, or be in communion with the Paramatma, and so secure liberation (moksa).

– Diva "Success is Planned"

Response:

I found this on a website and have seen similar definitions elsewhere. I once had an Indian girlfriend (wasn’t allowed in South Africa at the time). In the Indian township she lived there were many Yoga Schools and way it was explained to me Yoga in its true sense is a religous exercise. What is Yoga? The word Yoga is derived from the Sanskrit root yuj meaning to bind, join, attach and yoke, to direct and concentrate one’s attention on, to use and apply. It also means union or communion. It is the true union of our will with the will of God. ‘It thus means,’ says Mahadev Desai in his introduction to the Gita according to Gandhi, ‘the yoking of all the powers of body, mind and soul to God; it means the disciplining of the intellect, the mind, the emotions, the will, which that Yoga presupposes; it means a poise of the soul which enables one to look at life in all its aspects evenly.’ Yoga is one of the six orthodox systems of Indian philosophy. It was collated, co-ordinated and systematised by Patanjali in his classical work, the Yoga Sutras, which consists of 185 terse aphorisms. In Indian thought, everything is permeated by the Supreme Universal Spirit (Paramatma or God) of which the individual human spirit (jivatma) is a part. The system of yoga is so called because it teaches the means by which the jivatma can be united to, or be in communion with the Paramatma, and so secure liberation (moksa).

Response:

I’ve found yoga to be very beneficial, on all levels – physical and mental. It increases your control over your body….something that is very useful if you’re dieting However, Fred has raised a point that is also important.  You really have to be careful about where you study. Some of these "yoga schools" are really religious cults seeking new converts.  That is often the reason they seem so "slow and easy", as previously discussed. For example, one that you should definitely stay away from is the Integral Yoga Institute…a/k/a Yogaville, run by Swami Satchidananda. Some former members/swamis and their families have discussed these abuses at http://www.rickross.com/groups/yogaville.html. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I often think of Yoga and stuff but as a Christian the spirit  involvment bothers me. As far as I am aware Yoga isn’t just exercise it is a kind of religion. Does anyone know of something similar that doesn’t involve the spirit as such Bernard though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet. ahhhhhhhhhhhh, grasshopper, that is the true beauty of rosie  Hey all Had to laugh so hard at this rosie! My yogazone tape has the guy (can’t remember his name at the mo) teaching a position and then saying "are you pushing through this position? Are you trying to WIN yoga??!!" lol Yogazone is great–i do it after my stationary bike most days. laurieapril 308/292/? I just got a Yoga Journal’s Yoga Relaxation Tape by Rodney Yee ($15.00 in Canada) and just watching it is relaxing and beautiful. However even though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet. My impression of Yoga– it appears very positive and worthwhile pursuing.  In this complex and stressful world it is truly a blessing to master relaxation.  The tape is also available with something else included. I wish it were a CD of the music on the tape so i could hear it in the larger room where I will do the Yoga.  The first part of the tape has some spam for related products but I enjoyed that too! I have a very stressful job, and I was wondering if yoga would help, my boss does it and she loves it.  To get the full benefits from yoga, do you have to be physically fit? Jen — Diva "Success is Planned"

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No spirit involvement on Yoga Journal’s "Yoga Relaxation" with Rodney Yee.  It is just a video, just a calm voice, soft music and a naturally proportioned woman demonstrating a few basic positions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I often think of Yoga and stuff but as a Christian the spirit  involvment bothers me. As far as I am aware Yoga isn’t just exercise it is a kind of religion. Does anyone know of something similar that doesn’t involve the spirit as such Bernard though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet. ahhhhhhhhhhhh, grasshopper, that is the true beauty of rosie  Hey all Had to laugh so hard at this rosie! My yogazone tape has the guy (can’t remember his name at the mo) teaching a position and then saying "are you pushing through this position? Are you trying to WIN yoga??!!" lol Yogazone is great–i do it after my stationary bike most days. laurieapril 308/292/? I just got a Yoga Journal’s Yoga Relaxation Tape by Rodney Yee ($15.00 in Canada) and just watching it is relaxing and beautiful. However even though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet. My impression of Yoga– it appears very positive and worthwhile pursuing.  In this complex and stressful world it is truly a blessing to master relaxation.  The tape is also available with something else included. I wish it were a CD of the music on the tape so i could hear it in the larger room where I will do the Yoga.  The first part of the tape has some spam for related products but I enjoyed that too! I have a very stressful job, and I was wondering if yoga would help, my boss does it and she loves it.  To get the full benefits from yoga, do you have to be physically fit? Jen — Diva "Success is Planned"

– Diva "Success is Planned"

Response:

I often think of Yoga and stuff but as a Christian the spirit  involvment bothers me. As far as I am aware Yoga isn’t just exercise it is a kind of religion. Does anyone know of something similar that doesn’t involve the spirit as such Bernard

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet. ahhhhhhhhhhhh, grasshopper, that is the true beauty of rosie  Hey all Had to laugh so hard at this rosie! My yogazone tape has the guy (can’t remember his name at the mo) teaching a position and then saying "are you pushing through this position? Are you trying to WIN yoga??!!" lol Yogazone is great–i do it after my stationary bike most days. laurieapril 308/292/? I just got a Yoga Journal’s Yoga Relaxation Tape by Rodney Yee ($15.00 in Canada) and just watching it is relaxing and beautiful. However even though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet. My impression of Yoga– it appears very positive and worthwhile pursuing.  In this complex and stressful world it is truly a blessing to master relaxation.  The tape is also available with something else included. I wish it were a CD of the music on the tape so i could hear it in the larger room where I will do the Yoga.  The first part of the tape has some spam for related products but I enjoyed that too! I have a very stressful job, and I was wondering if yoga would help, my boss does it and she loves it.  To get the full benefits from yoga, do you have to be physically fit? Jen — Diva "Success is Planned"

Response:

Hey, just wanted to throw in my two cents (longtime yoga do-er). There are a bunch of techniques, so you have a lot of choices. A few basics are: Iyengar: very into precise poses. not for the easily bored. Lots of props. Great for beginners who are patient with themselves. yogazone yoga; a mishmash of techniques but usually good, can be strenuous. poweryoga: more strenuous. more active, not known for attention to detail, can be a little iffy for those who are new and dont’ know poses. integral yoga: very slow, very easy, contemplative. Anyway, there are lots, but all yoga that involves poses is Hatha yoga, so if they say it’s hatha yoga, you aren’t being told a whole lot. www.yogajournal.com [i think that is the right link] is pretty good for info. And yes, you can lose weight doing poweryoga, but it is pretty tough stuff. I wouldn’t recommend it to beginners. It is great for you.. and helps out in all walks of life. best, p-celle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi guys, Thanks for all of the responses. My boss and I are talking about going together soon Jenn yes!!!!! my wife is a power yoga instructor and she lost 12lbs and i lost 58lbs doing it with a good diet and a weight training program check our our page hutt 305/247/235 http://hometown.aol.com/huttly/hutt.html

Response:

Hi guys, Thanks for all of the responses. My boss and I are talking about going together soon Jenn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yes!!!!! my wife is a power yoga instructor and she lost 12lbs and i lost 58lbs doing it with a good diet and a weight training program check our our page hutt 305/247/235 http://hometown.aol.com/huttly/hutt.html

Response:

yes!!!!! my wife is a power yoga instructor and she lost 12lbs and i lost 58lbs doing it with a good diet and a weight training program check our our page hutt 305/247/235 http://hometown.aol.com/huttly/hutt.html

Response:

? Are you trying to WIN yoga??!!" lol Yogazone is great–i do it after my stationary bike most days. laurieapril 308/292/?

that is the first reason  i fell in love with YOGA. NO COMPETITION! rosie —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet. ahhhhhhhhhhhh, grasshopper, that is the true beauty of rosie  Hey all Had to laugh so hard at this rosie! My yogazone tape has the guy (can’t remember his name at the mo) teaching a position and then saying "are you pushing through this position? Are you trying to WIN yoga??!!" lol Yogazone is great–i do it after my stationary bike most days. laurieapril 308/292/? I just got a Yoga Journal’s Yoga Relaxation Tape by Rodney Yee ($15.00 in Canada) and just watching it is relaxing and beautiful. However even though I exercise daily, I can’t assume the basic seated position comfortably yet. My impression of Yoga– it appears very positive and worthwhile pursuing.  In this complex and stressful world it is truly a blessing to master relaxation.  The tape is also available with something else included. I wish it were a CD of the music on the tape so i could hear it in the larger room where I will do the Yoga.  The first part of the tape has some spam for related products but I enjoyed that too! I have a very stressful job, and I was wondering if yoga would help, my boss does it and she loves it.  To get the full benefits from yoga, do you have to be physically fit? Jen — Diva "Success is Planned"

Response:

Question:

Well, *something* changed so I could read your article. Rating it faiiled however: neutral. Yoga is much more than yogasana.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hello all, i would like to present all of you with an nice article written by me on a site called themestream which may interest all of you. kindly go through it and let me know of your views on the same topic. i would be encouraged to write more and if i could be of service or some help to you i would consider it my privilege to answer queries etc also thanking you all the article is www.themestream.com/gspd_browse/browse/view_article.gsp?c_id=173849 thanking you once again for your kind appreciation vikram goyal

Response:

I accessed it just fine.  However, I am a member of Themestream, so that might make a difference. No offense intended to Vikram, but that article is not one of the better Yoga articles on Themestream.  I’d aim for http://www.themestream.com/tax/Sports_and_Recreation/In_the_Gym/Yoga/… and then choose some of the articles on the "Rated Articles" list with four stars.  (The "This Just In" list isn’t all the great right now.) /bck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this a joke or so? Answer of your url: Site access rejected… Like to read it as soon as you correct access rights for the rest of the world… hello all, i would like to present all of you with an nice article written by me on a site called themestream which may interest all of you. kindly go through it and let me know of your views on the same topic. i would be encouraged to write more and if i could be of service or some help to you i would consider it my privilege to answer queries etc also thanking you all the article is www.themestream.com/gspd_browse/browse/view_article.gsp?c_id=173849 thanking you once again for your kind appreciation vikram goyal

–

Question:

The shoulder stand or sarvangasana is a posture indicated for hypothyroidism.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi: I’m starting my yoga practice.  I’m doing Living Arts Yoga Conditioning for Weight Loss and a few other Yoga tapes from Living Arts.  I don’t want to join a class just yet because I have lots of weight to lose and am not flexible.  Okay I just don’t want to be reminded of how over weight I am. I know many "experts" or long time practioners may not consider this real yoga but, one must start and learn somewhere. I wanted to know does yoga really tone the muscle?  If tone isn’t a good word does it help firm the muscle?  Does it give a moderate cardio work out?  Does yoga really help to balance the body?  I have hypothyroidism (yes I’m taking meds for it) and was wondering it yoga would help in returning balance to my thyroid or help my meds work better (thinking about blood flow). Thanks in advance for your help, support and guidance. Yoga Student in Training.

Response:

Not to get too off topic but, yes for some it doesn’t work at lowering cholesterol levels.  There are two things I know to do that may help.  Red meat, if you eat it, soak it in red wine for 24 hours rinse and prepare as usual.  Stay away from egg yolks.  The acid in both red meat and egg yolk is the culprit for some.  Red Rice Yeast Extract is a herbal supplement that naturally contains a low level of the same active ingredient found in the statin drugs that doctor’s prescribe for high cholesterol.  This also seems to work for some. If you like low carb you may want to give one or both of these a try.  Or if you found something that works better for you then stay with that.  It’s all about you. Yoga Student in Training.

Strange how these things go.  I, too, was a subscriber to Atkins for a while.  I whole-heartedly recommend it to others, despite the fact that my specific biochemistry didn’t mesh well with it: unlike most people, my cholesterol went *up* on Atkins.  I will recommend that folks on Protein Power or Atkins have semi-annual cholesterol checks, just to make sure that they’re not in the same boat as I am. —

Question:

Visit my site (in italian!!!!!). I show how yoga helped me in gastric problems and how it cured them. It’s easy and efficacious!!!! Try it!  http://digilander.iol.it/yogin1974/index.html

Response:

        Good Question.         The Bhagavad Gita says something like yoga         is not for those that eat to much, sleep to         much, ect….To mae in a way this is dogmatic         and I think any thing that is dogmatic is best         caste off.  But after pondering this passage I         have come up with a more practical, less domagtic         interpretation:  If you eat to much, you will have         a really hard time doing yoga for the next few days,         you won’t get all the benefits of yoga either….         Same with sleep, ect.  If one chronically eats to         much it would interfere with a regular practice,         same with sleep, drinking, drugs or any other         habitual behavior….The best advice I have heard         as related toi this is to detach your self from         those things that interfere with your regular         daily practice….Equally good advice is         moderation in moderation.                 To an extent asana is hedonistic         sometimes sadistic masochistic sensory pleasure,         but more importantly it’s Sattvic!                                         -Alex – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is the persute of hedonistic sensory pleasure counter to the yogic process, even where the rights and needs of others are respected? Chris

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Is the persute of hedonistic sensory pleasure counter to the yogic process, even where the rights and needs of others are respected? Chris

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Question:

I am researching the benefits of yoga & meditation to improve chronic back pain.  My Dr. suggests surgery but I’m looking for alternative treatment to help in healing.  Any suggestions on yoga positions or meditation technique.  I am a beginner.  Thank you for any responses. Carol Before you buy.

Response:

I am researching the benefits of yoga & meditation to improve chronic back pain.  My Dr. suggests surgery but I’m looking for alternative treatment to help in healing.  Any suggestions on yoga positions or meditation technique.  I am a beginner.  Thank you for any

responses. Depends where you have your pain? Lower /upper for exercises. For breathing exercises..there several. The idea *basic idea* is to concentrate on the area of pain… BY  bringing in energy into the area. This should help the area. But also trying to get rid of the pain by your out breath, There are many more advance on this than I am. Good luck in your post. It is of immense importance to learn to laugh at ourselves. –Katherine Mansfield//////Question of the day. It works? Before you buy.

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Question:

Those of us who have been discussing yoga in a recent thread may be interested in some research published in the UK today about a pilot scheme to alleviate diabetes by participating in yoga classes.  Apparently, the relaxation benefits of yoga have a clinically demonstrable effect on blood sugar (ie lowering it).  I saw it on the BBC news today so I imagine it will be carried on the www.bbc.co.uk website if anyone wants to find out more. Sophie 204/193/140 minigoal #2 – 189 Xmas goal – 168

Response:

I did a search (for yoga AND diabetes) on the BBC website and found the following link http://news6.thdo.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid%5F467000/467711.stm However, this story is old (October 8, 1999) but points in a similar direction. If anyone has any better luck tracking down this story, please let me know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Those of us who have been discussing yoga in a recent thread may be interested in some research published in the UK today about a pilot scheme to alleviate diabetes by participating in yoga classes.  Apparently, the relaxation benefits of yoga have a clinically demonstrable effect on blood sugar (ie lowering it).  I saw it on the BBC news today so I imagine it will be carried on the www.bbc.co.uk website if anyone wants to find out more. Sophie 204/193/140 minigoal #2 – 189 Xmas goal – 168

– Stephen Rees Richmond BC, Canada 204.8/179.6/164 Before you buy.

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