Question:
Pathetic. You are in good company though. Lots of people are in your boat. Mike Dubbeld
Seems you had two choices in your response to me. Either a cogent reply to my criticism of your rants or you could throw a cheap insult at me. Why did you choose the later? You repeatedly claim to be of advanced consciousness. Is this sort of choice an example of heightened awareness? Would I be able to hurl insults in the same sophomoric manner if I sucked air until my body shook? — ~Stu Man of low consciousness, but keeps trying. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess you never learned. Didn’t hold the locks. Bad guess. Didn’t practice everyday. I can only speculate. It is the endless speculation that gets you into trouble. Stick to facts and you will come closer to the truth rather than resorting endless rhetorical spam fantasies in your posts. The literature is full of what I am talking about. Yogic literature is full of myth and superstition. Which direction do you face when you meditate? Do you practice in a windowless hut on a floor of dung? We need to separate the years of superstition from the real value of the texts. Stick to the core of the texts. Let experience guide the spirit. One book Kundalini Evolution and Enlightenment has some amazing stories told only by people that were very advanced – all using very differnent methods/different schools. But stories none the less. It is to the disciple’s advantage to create grand images of their saints in history. Amazing because I had most of the same experiences. I can tell with little effort how far along someone is. That is because it is obvious from your posts how advanced you are. We are truly privileged to have someone of such advanced evolution illuminating us daily with long winded posts. From your response below you are bitter. Bitter? Show me evidence of that. Even a hasty scan of my posts will reveal that bitterness is not one of my qualities. Though I admit to brief smatterings of cynicism, but usually for comic effect. Thats not my fault. Tons of people practice Power Yoga and dream for meditation as well. If you read my posts you would find we share the similar views on the usefulness of Power Yoga. My only difference in that area is that I sense those who practice PY should not be dismissed indiscriminately. You would do well to meet the likes of Brian Kest, who I believe came up with the form. And to dismiss TM as dreaming illustrates your ignorance on the subject. But we have been down that road. From hearing this from someone practicing as long as you say you have I can only conclude how fortunate I am having not done whatever it is you are doing. There you go with speculation. It translates as, my yoga is better than your yoga. Its faster, more efficient, smarter and cooler, after all look at how smart, handsome and evolved I am. Humble too. Did I forget humble? You claim to be doing Iyengar of some sort. I guess I will have to re-evaluate Iyengar. That reads: There is no way the Iyengar method can be a good form of yoga because you practice it. In addition I have not spent any time really studying this method and only know what I know from internet posts and rumors. I doubt if Iyengar shares your views. I know that Mr. Iyengar doesn’t share your views. If you are not successful/do not see these things youself, you come to believe yoga is analogies and other nonsense. The "anologies" thing must be a reference to one your previous rants. I am not familiar with it. The "other nonsense" addition, is just a way to cut-down my yoga practice, as if your insults are going to weaken my discipline. And to what end? Justify years of dreaming meditation. Maybe Iyengar also teaches power yoga of some sort with no holding and resting – that gym stuff and wrestling. Rant. Also, the shaking of the body is the cause, not the effect. If one does not breath properly and creates a need for oxygen they will shake. Its a fact. I know when I have practiced these forms of pranayama – the shaking is a bad thing – even if it is extolled in the Hatha yoga pradipika. Who knows how much nerve damage may have been caused? If the shaking body is the cause, then why do you need to practice hyperventilation to bring it on? This is not happening spontaneously but after extended periods of breath retention and exhaustion. Also tells me lots of people can be content enough to continue for many years to do something and not advance. As I said before we can’t be as advanced as you. It is if your posts are written from the actual light of Shiva shining through your keyboard. I don’t think my spam filter would stop them from coming across. But then, people do exercise for years too. For a lot of people, a good balanced exercise regime, be it running, swimming, walking is an excellent addition to their lives. What’s wrong with that? This means you are also likely clueless on energy movement. More speculation. Pretty amazing. The speculation? People like you cause me to believe there is basically no hope of teaching other people except exactly how I was taught. Of course, because you are the soul recipient of the deepest knowledge of the universe. Us lower beings can only begin to understand the profound nature of your lengthy and excessive posts. Then I remember all those very different people and their experiences in Kundalini Evolution and Enlightment achieving this using totally different methods. I remember the first few pages of Sivananda describing what happened to me in Kundalini Yoga. You are the product of misfortune/needed a guru as you have failed on your own whatever it is you are doing. No revelations or other psychic experiences. I would have quit long ago. I am very sorry to hear this from you Stu. Sorry to hear your misfortune. There is only fortune in yoga. Mike Dubbeld Allow the wisdom of the heart to guide the intelligence of the mind. — ~Stu
Response:
Pathetic. You are in good company though. Lots of people are in your boat. Mike Dubbeld
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess you never learned. Didn’t hold the locks. Bad guess. Didn’t practice everyday. I can only speculate. It is the endless speculation that gets you into trouble. Stick to facts and you will come closer to the truth rather than resorting endless rhetorical spam fantasies in your posts. The literature is full of what I am talking about. Yogic literature is full of myth and superstition. Which direction do you face when you meditate? Do you practice in a windowless hut on a floor of dung? We need to separate the years of superstition from the real value of the texts. Stick to the core of the texts. Let experience guide the spirit. One book Kundalini Evolution and Enlightenment has some amazing stories told only by people that were very advanced – all using very differnent methods/different schools. But stories none the less. It is to the disciple’s advantage to create grand images of their saints in history. Amazing because I had most of the same experiences. I can tell with little effort how far along someone is. That is because it is obvious from your posts how advanced you are. We are truly privileged to have someone of such advanced evolution illuminating us daily with long winded posts. From your response below you are bitter. Bitter? Show me evidence of that. Even a hasty scan of my posts will reveal that bitterness is not one of my qualities. Though I admit to brief smatterings of cynicism, but usually for comic effect. Thats not my fault. Tons of people practice Power Yoga and dream for meditation as well. If you read my posts you would find we share the similar views on the usefulness of Power Yoga. My only difference in that area is that I sense those who practice PY should not be dismissed indiscriminately. You would do well to meet the likes of Brian Kest, who I believe came up with the form. And to dismiss TM as dreaming illustrates your ignorance on the subject. But we have been down that road. From hearing this from someone practicing as long as you say you have I can only conclude how fortunate I am having not done whatever it is you are doing. There you go with speculation. It translates as, my yoga is better than your yoga. Its faster, more efficient, smarter and cooler, after all look at how smart, handsome and evolved I am. Humble too. Did I forget humble? You claim to be doing Iyengar of some sort. I guess I will have to re-evaluate Iyengar. That reads: There is no way the Iyengar method can be a good form of yoga because you practice it. In addition I have not spent any time really studying this method and only know what I know from internet posts and rumors. I doubt if Iyengar shares your views. I know that Mr. Iyengar doesn’t share your views. If you are not successful/do not see these things youself, you come to believe yoga is analogies and other nonsense. The "anologies" thing must be a reference to one your previous rants. I am not familiar with it. The "other nonsense" addition, is just a way to cut-down my yoga practice, as if your insults are going to weaken my discipline. And to what end? Justify years of dreaming meditation. Maybe Iyengar also teaches power yoga of some sort with no holding and resting – that gym stuff and wrestling. Rant. Also, the shaking of the body is the cause, not the effect. If one does not breath properly and creates a need for oxygen they will shake. Its a fact. I know when I have practiced these forms of pranayama – the shaking is a bad thing – even if it is extolled in the Hatha yoga pradipika. Who knows how much nerve damage may have been caused? If the shaking body is the cause, then why do you need to practice hyperventilation to bring it on? This is not happening spontaneously but after extended periods of breath retention and exhaustion. Also tells me lots of people can be content enough to continue for many years to do something and not advance. As I said before we can’t be as advanced as you. It is if your posts are written from the actual light of Shiva shining through your keyboard. I don’t think my spam filter would stop them from coming across. But then, people do exercise for years too. For a lot of people, a good balanced exercise regime, be it running, swimming, walking is an excellent addition to their lives. What’s wrong with that? This means you are also likely clueless on energy movement. More speculation. Pretty amazing. The speculation? People like you cause me to believe there is basically no hope of teaching other people except exactly how I was taught. Of course, because you are the soul recipient of the deepest knowledge of the universe. Us lower beings can only begin to understand the profound nature of your lengthy and excessive posts. Then I remember all those very different people and their experiences in Kundalini Evolution and Enlightment achieving this using totally different methods. I remember the first few pages of Sivananda describing what happened to me in Kundalini Yoga. You are the product of misfortune/needed a guru as you have failed on your own whatever it is you are doing. No revelations or other psychic experiences. I would have quit long ago. I am very sorry to hear this from you Stu. Sorry to hear your misfortune. There is only fortune in yoga. Mike Dubbeld Allow the wisdom of the heart to guide the intelligence of the mind. — ~Stu
Response:
I guess you never learned. Didn’t hold the locks.
Bad guess. Didn’t practice everyday. I can only speculate.
It is the endless speculation that gets you into trouble. Stick to facts and you will come closer to the truth rather than resorting endless rhetorical spam fantasies in your posts. The literature is full of what I am talking about.
Yogic literature is full of myth and superstition. Which direction do you face when you meditate? Do you practice in a windowless hut on a floor of dung? We need to separate the years of superstition from the real value of the texts. Stick to the core of the texts. Let experience guide the spirit. One book Kundalini Evolution and Enlightenment has some amazing stories told only by people that were very advanced – all using very differnent methods/different schools.
But stories none the less. It is to the disciple’s advantage to create grand images of their saints in history. Amazing because I had most of the same experiences. I can tell with little effort how far along someone is.
That is because it is obvious from your posts how advanced you are. We are truly privileged to have someone of such advanced evolution illuminating us daily with long winded posts. From your response below you are bitter.
Bitter? Show me evidence of that. Even a hasty scan of my posts will reveal that bitterness is not one of my qualities. Though I admit to brief smatterings of cynicism, but usually for comic effect. Thats not my fault. Tons of people practice Power Yoga and dream for meditation as well.
If you read my posts you would find we share the similar views on the usefulness of Power Yoga. My only difference in that area is that I sense those who practice PY should not be dismissed indiscriminately. You would do well to meet the likes of Brian Kest, who I believe came up with the form. And to dismiss TM as dreaming illustrates your ignorance on the subject. But we have been down that road. From hearing this from someone practicing as long as you say you have I can only conclude how fortunate I am having not done whatever it is you are doing.
There you go with speculation. It translates as, my yoga is better than your yoga. Its faster, more efficient, smarter and cooler, after all look at how smart, handsome and evolved I am. Humble too. Did I forget humble? You claim to be doing Iyengar of some sort. I guess I will have to re-evaluate Iyengar.
That reads: There is no way the Iyengar method can be a good form of yoga because you practice it. In addition I have not spent any time really studying this method and only know what I know from internet posts and rumors. I doubt if Iyengar shares your views.
I know that Mr. Iyengar doesn’t share your views. If you are not successful/do not see these things youself, you come to believe yoga is analogies and other nonsense.
The "anologies" thing must be a reference to one your previous rants. I am not familiar with it. The "other nonsense" addition, is just a way to cut-down my yoga practice, as if your insults are going to weaken my discipline. And to what end? Justify years of dreaming meditation. Maybe Iyengar also teaches power yoga of some sort with no holding and resting – that gym stuff and wrestling.
Rant. Also, the shaking of the body is the cause, not the effect.
If one does not breath properly and creates a need for oxygen they will shake. Its a fact. I know when I have practiced these forms of pranayama – the shaking is a bad thing – even if it is extolled in the Hatha yoga pradipika. Who knows how much nerve damage may have been caused? If the shaking body is the cause, then why do you need to practice hyperventilation to bring it on? This is not happening spontaneously but after extended periods of breath retention and exhaustion. Also tells me lots of people can be content enough to continue for many years to do something and not advance.
As I said before we can’t be as advanced as you. It is if your posts are written from the actual light of Shiva shining through your keyboard. I don’t think my spam filter would stop them from coming across. But then, people do exercise for years too.
For a lot of people, a good balanced exercise regime, be it running, swimming, walking is an excellent addition to their lives. What’s wrong with that? This means you are also likely clueless on energy movement.
More speculation. Pretty amazing.
The speculation? People like you cause me to believe there is basically no hope of teaching other people except exactly how I was taught.
Of course, because you are the soul recipient of the deepest knowledge of the universe. Us lower beings can only begin to understand the profound nature of your lengthy and excessive posts. Then I remember all those very different people and their experiences in Kundalini Evolution and Enlightment achieving this using totally different methods. I remember the first few pages of Sivananda describing what happened to me in Kundalini Yoga. You are the product of misfortune/needed a guru as you have failed on your own whatever it is you are doing. No revelations or other psychic experiences. I would have quit long ago. I am very sorry to hear this from you Stu. Sorry to hear your misfortune.
There is only fortune in yoga. Mike Dubbeld
Allow the wisdom of the heart to guide the intelligence of the mind. — ~Stu
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mik, Thanks for the guidance. Exercise forces you to breathe naturally to catch your breath. You can see dramatic improvement after a few months of alternate nostril breathing twice a day. I started doing this recently, but I found that about 4 times out of five, I would find that one of my nostrils was too congested due to tissue swelling. I gather this is commonplace for many people, but I think I get it more than some because of sensitivity to airborn allergens. I thought about having a snort on a nasal spray inhaler prior to the exercise; but taking a drug like ephedrine in order to facilitate a yoga exercise seems a bit ironic. Ok, for a long time I was using Dristan nasal decongestant. When you use it twice a day you start to worry about the warning about prolonged use on the label. So then I went to salt water. That was a lot of bother. I live in a hot dry, and dusty climate, Los Angeles. I find a little saline goes a long way to clear breathing for sleep as well as morning yoga. Instead of using a netti pot I have been using saline spray available at the drug store in a handy spray bottle.
http://www.drugstore.com/qxp75255_333181_sespider/rite_aid/saline_nasal_ spra y.htm
I haven’t used anything at all for many years and never even think about it unless someone brings it up. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Somehow out of laziness I guess, I discovered it was all psychological. I don’t do anything and have not even thought about it for months or years at at time. It takes someone like you to remind me of it. I don’t doubt it is a problem, but I suspect it is more your perception of it being a problem than it actually is. Also, I may be subconsciously clearing my nose when doing kapalabhati. In any case it never even occurs to me anymore. You can open either nostril anytime in less than 2 minutes probably simply by laying on your side. If the left one is blocked, lay on your right side. With me it takes less than a minute just about every time. If your nose is clogged from illness it might take longer. Illness itself can be diagonsed by failure to change from one nostril to the other after 90 minutes in healthy adults. The longer you breathe through a single nostril the more serious an impending illness will be says Swara Yoga/Johari I believe. I just got done blasting drugs on another post! Some people have no choice however and must take drugs. However, those people should always be aware that doctors neither know or believe benefits from yoga as a general rule and they prescribe for you the same as others. It may be worth attempting to cut down and eliminate some kinds of drugs if it can be done safely. (hard to say cause genetics determine some things) Eventually the yoga should completely replace the nasal anti-inflammatory drug. I am not sure what the side effects are, but whenever I have used then they seem to take over the entire nasal passage way temporarily and then return it more inflamed than before. Perhaps the answer is to keep checking one’s nostril-openness throughout the day and wait till they are both unconstricted before doing the exercise. No, thats too much trouble. Try ignoring it the best you can and laying on your side as per above. One nostril is always open more than the other and it changes about every 90 minutes in healthy adults. But laying on my side opens the other nostril without fail almost in less than a minute. However, at times when I did manage to do the exercise, I did notice valuable benefits – partucularly its calming, cooling, clarifying affect on my groggy brain during the first couple of hours of the day. I tend to wake up in the mornings in an really awful stuffy, groggy, headachey state – I think partly due to an allergy to dust etc. Alternate Nostril Breathing (ANB) is like flying in a 747. It doesn’t appear like much is happening but you are moving at a very high speed. You keep doing it but not much ever seems to happen. But one day you notice your hand holding your nose appears to be sort of shaky. Soon you find your arm is starting to tremble for no reason. Then the whole body may feel like it needs to shake violently. Maybe breakout in a flash fine sweat over your whole body. Air somehow affects you more when your breathe. It takes less for you to recover from exercise. A less number of deep breaths. Another effect is the melodious quality your voice takes on after practice. But much like piano lessons, that sound terrible if you listen to them every day it appears like you are making little or no progress, then suddenly you see it. Just can’t get anything for nothing. If people could just once see the results of the profound changes that take place from ANB they would be scrambling for this. Its too bad it takes a lot of faith in the beginning. Practice of ANB will lead you to the health you enjoyed as a child. Mike Dubbeld I have been practicing ANB (my yoga teacher refers to it as digital breathing) since I learned it back in 1969 at the Ann Arbor, YMCA. I agree it goes along way to calming the mind and balancing the senses. I have never had this shaky hand experience. There are specific ways to hold the upper spine and arm, as well as finger placement to insure this doesn’t happen. As for the sweat and shaking body, sounds like hyperventilation. This is a sign that something is wrong. The practice has always left me in the cool and calm place, a terrific starting point to bring the attention deep inside for a while.
If you have been doing it that long maybe you forgot or they were so mild you took no notice. Shaking is a sign of the nadis being impure and too much energy trying to pass through it. It is in lots of books as well. ‘The shaking will pass’ I seem to recall offhand from Vivekananda Raja Yoga. Once I had to compose myself because the hand I used to hold my nose started to tremble. Another time my whole body felt like it was going to shake, never did but it was disturbing. Mike D. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — ~Stu
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] on the label. So then I went to salt water. That was a lot of bother. I live in a hot dry, and dusty climate, Los Angeles. I find a little saline goes a long way to clear breathing for sleep as well as morning yoga. Instead of using a netti pot I have been using saline spray available at the drug store in a handy spray bottle.
http://www.drugstore.com/qxp75255_333181_sespider/rite_aid/saline_nasal_ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – spra y.htm I haven’t used anything at all for many years and never even think about it unless someone brings it up. We can’t all be as evolved as you. I just passed it on to those of us on lower planes as helpful advice. [snip] As for the sweat and shaking body, sounds like hyperventilation. This is a sign that something is wrong. The practice has always left me in the cool and calm place, a terrific starting point to bring the attention deep inside for a while. If you have been doing it that long maybe you forgot or they were so mild you took no notice. Shaking is a sign of the nadis being impure and too much energy trying to pass through it. It is in lots of books as well. ‘The shaking will pass’ I seem to recall offhand from Vivekananda Raja Yoga. Once I had to compose myself because the hand I used to hold my nose started to tremble. Another time my whole body felt like it was going to shake, never did but it was disturbing. Mike D.
I guess you never learned. Didn’t hold the locks. Didn’t practice everyday. I can only speculate. The literature is full of what I am talking about. One book Kundalini Evolution and Enlightenment has some amazing stories told only by people that were very advanced – all using very differnent methods/different schools. Amazing because I had most of the same experiences. I can tell with little effort how far along someone is. From your response below you are bitter. Thats not my fault. Tons of people practice Power Yoga and dream for meditation as well. From hearing this from someone practicing as long as you say you have I can only conclude how fortunate I am having not done whatever it is you are doing. You claim to be doing Iyengar of some sort. I guess I will have to re-evaluate Iyengar. I doubt if Iyengar shares your views. If you are not successful/do not see these things youself, you come to believe yoga is analogies and other nonsense. Justify years of dreaming meditation. Maybe Iyengar also teaches power yoga of some sort with no holding and resting – that gym stuff and wrestling. Also, the shaking of the body is the cause, not the effect. Also tells me lots of people can be content enough to continue for many years to do something and not advance. But then, people do exercise for years too. This means you are also likely clueless on energy movement. Pretty amazing. People like you cause me to believe there is basically no hope of teaching other people except exactly how I was taught. Then I remember all those very different people and their experiences in Kundalini Evolution and Enlightment achieving this using totally different methods. I remember the first few pages of Sivananda describing what happened to me in Kundalini Yoga. You are the product of misfortune/needed a guru as you have failed on your own whatever it is you are doing. No revelations or other psychic experiences. I would have quit long ago. I am very sorry to hear this from you Stu. Sorry to hear your misfortune. Mike Dubbeld – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Years ago in San Francisco I briefly connected with a cult that believed in such a thing. We were doing long sessions of pranayama at the time. Shaking was part of the evolution. Their beliefs included suggestions of cleansing impurities and of mythic coiled snakes. I have realized this mythology is antithetical to the work of Self discovery. The shaking is hyperventilation. The altered consciousness that comes with it due to improper balance of oxygen. Since then I have had far better instruction in Pranayama. I now understand that the symptoms of hyperventilation are to be avoided. They have no place in the evolution of consciousness. It is as if when practicing asanas the teacher were to tell you to work through a pain emanating from the lumbar spine. That one will find liberation if the asanas are continued through pain (I have heard teachers say such things). I now know that if sharp pains are experienced they are markers for possible future damage. The body is not ready. The asana needs to be modified. Pranayama is the same. One needs to observe their own body and modify their practice for minimal damage and maximum benefit. — ~Stu
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] on the label. So then I went to salt water. That was a lot of bother. I live in a hot dry, and dusty climate, Los Angeles. I find a little saline goes a long way to clear breathing for sleep as well as morning yoga. Instead of using a netti pot I have been using saline spray available at the drug store in a handy spray bottle. http://www.drugstore.com/qxp75255_333181_sespider/rite_aid/saline_nasal_ spra y.htm I haven’t used anything at all for many years and never even think about it unless someone brings it up.
We can’t all be as evolved as you. I just passed it on to those of us on lower planes as helpful advice. [snip] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As for the sweat and shaking body, sounds like hyperventilation. This is a sign that something is wrong. The practice has always left me in the cool and calm place, a terrific starting point to bring the attention deep inside for a while. If you have been doing it that long maybe you forgot or they were so mild you took no notice. Shaking is a sign of the nadis being impure and too much energy trying to pass through it. It is in lots of books as well. ‘The shaking will pass’ I seem to recall offhand from Vivekananda Raja Yoga. Once I had to compose myself because the hand I used to hold my nose started to tremble. Another time my whole body felt like it was going to shake, never did but it was disturbing. Mike D.
Years ago in San Francisco I briefly connected with a cult that believed in such a thing. We were doing long sessions of pranayama at the time. Shaking was part of the evolution. Their beliefs included suggestions of cleansing impurities and of mythic coiled snakes. I have realized this mythology is antithetical to the work of Self discovery. The shaking is hyperventilation. The altered consciousness that comes with it due to improper balance of oxygen. Since then I have had far better instruction in Pranayama. I now understand that the symptoms of hyperventilation are to be avoided. They have no place in the evolution of consciousness. It is as if when practicing asanas the teacher were to tell you to work through a pain emanating from the lumbar spine. That one will find liberation if the asanas are continued through pain (I have heard teachers say such things). I now know that if sharp pains are experienced they are markers for possible future damage. The body is not ready. The asana needs to be modified. Pranayama is the same. One needs to observe their own body and modify their practice for minimal damage and maximum benefit. — ~Stu
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mik, Thanks for the guidance. Exercise forces you to breathe naturally to catch your breath. You can see dramatic improvement after a few months of alternate nostril breathing twice a day. I started doing this recently, but I found that about 4 times out of five, I would find that one of my nostrils was too congested due to tissue swelling. I gather this is commonplace for many people, but I think I get it more than some because of sensitivity to airborn allergens. I thought about having a snort on a nasal spray inhaler prior to the exercise; but taking a drug like ephedrine in order to facilitate a yoga exercise seems a bit ironic. Ok, for a long time I was using Dristan nasal decongestant. When you use it twice a day you start to worry about the warning about prolonged use on the label. So then I went to salt water. That was a lot of bother.
I live in a hot dry, and dusty climate, Los Angeles. I find a little saline goes a long way to clear breathing for sleep as well as morning yoga. Instead of using a netti pot I have been using saline spray available at the drug store in a handy spray bottle. http://www.drugstore.com/qxp75255_333181_sespider/rite_aid/saline_nas… y.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Somehow out of laziness I guess, I discovered it was all psychological. I don’t do anything and have not even thought about it for months or years at at time. It takes someone like you to remind me of it. I don’t doubt it is a problem, but I suspect it is more your perception of it being a problem than it actually is. Also, I may be subconsciously clearing my nose when doing kapalabhati. In any case it never even occurs to me anymore. You can open either nostril anytime in less than 2 minutes probably simply by laying on your side. If the left one is blocked, lay on your right side. With me it takes less than a minute just about every time. If your nose is clogged from illness it might take longer. Illness itself can be diagonsed by failure to change from one nostril to the other after 90 minutes in healthy adults. The longer you breathe through a single nostril the more serious an impending illness will be says Swara Yoga/Johari I believe. I just got done blasting drugs on another post! Some people have no choice however and must take drugs. However, those people should always be aware that doctors neither know or believe benefits from yoga as a general rule and they prescribe for you the same as others. It may be worth attempting to cut down and eliminate some kinds of drugs if it can be done safely. (hard to say cause genetics determine some things)
Eventually the yoga should completely replace the nasal anti-inflammatory drug. I am not sure what the side effects are, but whenever I have used then they seem to take over the entire nasal passage way temporarily and then return it more inflamed than before. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Perhaps the answer is to keep checking one’s nostril-openness throughout the day and wait till they are both unconstricted before doing the exercise. No, thats too much trouble. Try ignoring it the best you can and laying on your side as per above. One nostril is always open more than the other and it changes about every 90 minutes in healthy adults. But laying on my side opens the other nostril without fail almost in less than a minute. However, at times when I did manage to do the exercise, I did notice valuable benefits – partucularly its calming, cooling, clarifying affect on my groggy brain during the first couple of hours of the day. I tend to wake up in the mornings in an really awful stuffy, groggy, headachey state – I think partly due to an allergy to dust etc. Alternate Nostril Breathing (ANB) is like flying in a 747. It doesn’t appear like much is happening but you are moving at a very high speed. You keep doing it but not much ever seems to happen. But one day you notice your hand holding your nose appears to be sort of shaky. Soon you find your arm is starting to tremble for no reason. Then the whole body may feel like it needs to shake violently. Maybe breakout in a flash fine sweat over your whole body. Air somehow affects you more when your breathe. It takes less for you to recover from exercise. A less number of deep breaths. Another effect is the melodious quality your voice takes on after practice. But much like piano lessons, that sound terrible if you listen to them every day it appears like you are making little or no progress, then suddenly you see it. Just can’t get anything for nothing. If people could just once see the results of the profound changes that take place from ANB they would be scrambling for this. Its too bad it takes a lot of faith in the beginning. Practice of ANB will lead you to the health you enjoyed as a child. Mike Dubbeld
I have been practicing ANB (my yoga teacher refers to it as digital breathing) since I learned it back in 1969 at the Ann Arbor, YMCA. I agree it goes along way to calming the mind and balancing the senses. I have never had this shaky hand experience. There are specific ways to hold the upper spine and arm, as well as finger placement to insure this doesn’t happen. As for the sweat and shaking body, sounds like hyperventilation. This is a sign that something is wrong. The practice has always left me in the cool and calm place, a terrific starting point to bring the attention deep inside for a while. — ~Stu
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mik, Thanks for the guidance. Exercise forces you to breathe naturally to catch your breath. You can see dramatic improvement after a few months of alternate nostril breathing twice a day. I started doing this recently, but I found that about 4 times out of five, I would find that one of my nostrils was too congested due to tissue swelling. I gather this is commonplace for many people, but I think I get it more than some because of sensitivity to airborn allergens. I thought about having a snort on a nasal spray inhaler prior to the exercise; but taking a drug like ephedrine in order to facilitate a yoga exercise seems a bit ironic.
Ok, for a long time I was using Dristan nasal decongestant. When you use it twice a day you start to worry about the warning about prolonged use on the label. So then I went to salt water. That was a lot of bother. Somehow out of laziness I guess, I discovered it was all psychological. I don’t do anything and have not even thought about it for months or years at at time. It takes someone like you to remind me of it. I don’t doubt it is a problem, but I suspect it is more your perception of it being a problem than it actually is. Also, I may be subconsciously clearing my nose when doing kapalabhati. In any case it never even occurs to me anymore. You can open either nostril anytime in less than 2 minutes probably simply by laying on your side. If the left one is blocked, lay on your right side. With me it takes less than a minute just about every time. If your nose is clogged from illness it might take longer. Illness itself can be diagonsed by failure to change from one nostril to the other after 90 minutes in healthy adults. The longer you breathe through a single nostril the more serious an impending illness will be says Swara Yoga/Johari I believe. I just got done blasting drugs on another post! Some people have no choice however and must take drugs. However, those people should always be aware that doctors neither know or believe benefits from yoga as a general rule and they prescribe for you the same as others. It may be worth attempting to cut down and eliminate some kinds of drugs if it can be done safely. (hard to say cause genetics determine some things) Perhaps the answer is to keep checking one’s nostril-openness throughout the day and wait till they are both unconstricted before doing the exercise.
No, thats too much trouble. Try ignoring it the best you can and laying on your side as per above. One nostril is always open more than the other and it changes about every 90 minutes in healthy adults. But laying on my side opens the other nostril without fail almost in less than a minute. However, at times when I did manage to do the exercise, I did notice valuable benefits – partucularly its calming, cooling, clarifying affect on my groggy brain during the first couple of hours of the day. I tend to wake up in the mornings in an really awful stuffy, groggy, headachey state – I think partly due to an allergy to dust etc.
Alternate Nostril Breathing (ANB) is like flying in a 747. It doesn’t appear like much is happening but you are moving at a very high speed. You keep doing it but not much ever seems to happen. But one day you notice your hand holding your nose appears to be sort of shaky. Soon you find your arm is starting to tremble for no reason. Then the whole body may feel like it needs to shake violently. Maybe breakout in a flash fine sweat over your whole body. Air somehow affects you more when your breathe. It takes less for you to recover from exercise. A less number of deep breaths. Another effect is the melodious quality your voice takes on after practice. But much like piano lessons, that sound terrible if you listen to them every day it appears like you are making little or no progress, then suddenly you see it. Just can’t get anything for nothing. If people could just once see the results of the profound changes that take place from ANB they would be scrambling for this. Its too bad it takes a lot of faith in the beginning. Practice of ANB will lead you to the health you enjoyed as a child. Mike Dubbeld – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regards Jake
Response:
Mik, Thanks for the guidance. Exercise forces you to breathe naturally to catch your breath. You can see dramatic improvement after a few months of alternate nostril breathing twice a day.
I started doing this recently, but I found that about 4 times out of five, I would find that one of my nostrils was too congested due to tissue swelling. I gather this is commonplace for many people, but I think I get it more than some because of sensitivity to airborn allergens. I thought about having a snort on a nasal spray inhaler prior to the exercise; but taking a drug like ephedrine in order to facilitate a yoga exercise seems a bit ironic. Perhaps the answer is to keep checking one’s nostril-openness throughout the day and wait till they are both unconstricted before doing the exercise. However, at times when I did manage to do the exercise, I did notice valuable benefits – partucularly its calming, cooling, clarifying affect on my groggy brain during the first couple of hours of the day. I tend to wake up in the mornings in an really awful stuffy, groggy, headachey state – I think partly due to an allergy to dust etc. Regards Jake
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About 30 years ago, I discovered the benefits of natural breathing. That is to say, breathing that is not interfered with by conscious control, but rather breathing that is controlled unconsciously by the autonomic nervous system, by reflex action. (I.e., pretty much breathing as you would if you were unconscious, deeply relaxed, or asleep). Lately, I have regained my interest in this subject, after coming to the conclusion that I waste lots of energy each day, controlling my breathing in unnecessary and inefficient way. I suspect that much of the time I have been hyperventilation, while at other times I have been consuming too much oxygen. I believe this is poorly worded. Most people breathe with no conscious control/automatically. When I started yoga I became consciously aware of my breathing. I don’t breathe a single breath or my heart beat a single time that I am not slightly conscious of. Everything I do is in rhythm to them. Even in sleep I am slightly conscious of both. But I did not say I consciously control them. That is a big difference. If you consciously control them, depending on what you mean by that, you are likely going to do a poor job of it. We do lots of things because we think we are smarter than nature. A dog will not eat when it is sick. We eat to feel better. Or a dog will eat grass. Mike, Thanks for your response. Yes, in retrospect, my post was badly worded. I guess I did not mean that I consciously interfere with natural breathing patterns suring the day. I guess what I was trying to say is that I do it subconsciously and often badly. For example: If I get anxious about something, I subconsciously start breathing more shallowly and more quickly. However, when the source of the anxiety has passed, I don’t automatically revert back to slow, natural effortless breathing. I continue breathing to maintain the ‘fight or flight’ potential. I am now trying to learn the art of breathing during normal daytime waking activity. I have become interested in the Yoga teachings concerning breathing. However, I am a little confused because, on one hand, yoga seems to advocate natural breathing while on the other, it sometimes recommends breathing with a slightly constricting the throat (Ujjayi). Not during normal breathing! Ujjayi is a pranayama exercise. However, I am finding it useful as a way of slowing down my breathing at times when I am unnecessarily anxious, or when there is adrenaline in my system and I need to calm down. Do you not think Ujjayi is good for this?
I just never did it except as part of an exercise/not part of normal breathing. I haven’t done it in a long time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The second matter which I am unsure about is determining exactly when I am controlling my breathing. If I am anxious, and I then lie down on the floor and relax, it becomes very clear that I have been interfering with my natural breathing pattern. If I let go of those controlling impulses, my breathing becomes easy instead of strained or tiresome. When I subsequently sink into a calm state, allowing my breathing to become smooth, easy and effortless, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that one has relinquished control of the breathing. However, it has recently occurred to me that even at this level, it could be construed that one is still controlling one’s breathing, albeit in a more efficient way. Thats exactly why I said above this is worded poorly. The impulse that initiates each in-breath and each out-breath still has to come from the brain, and ultimately from the self, right? So I’m wondering if the next stage would be to become aware that one is still controlling the breath, and then relinquish that control altogether. What happens then? From my own experience, I have stopped breathing altogether. Breathing is natural. Stopping breathing is not natural. You interfered with it for it to stop. I am not so sure. I feel that it is when I stop interfering that my breathing ceases. It’s not like I’m forcing myselfe to stop breathing; I’m letting go, so that the impulse to breathe does not occur.
Yes but without your attention it would have continued so your giving it attention to have it stop. You don’t stop breathing when you sleep. (actually there are conditions that cause this that are life threatening to infants and there is sleep apnea also but I mean normally) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is an exception to this but from what you said, you are nowhere near the breathless state where the impulse to breathe does cease naturally. But this happens because it is no longer necessary/the body does not need or want it. I have experieced this too. It frequently happens to me during the hatha yoga class I go to. The teasher tells everyone to do the sequence in time with thier own natural breathing impulses. I sometimes find myself, lying there (or stading) dead still waiting for a natural in-breath or out-breath to occur – but it sometimes takes minutes. Meanwhile, the rest of the class has finished the sequence! This does not worry me; I think it means I’m on a deeper level of tranquility than the rest of the class. We all breathe naturally unconsciously. I think you might learn otherwise if you did a study of my own breathing habits… Kundalini sleeps at the base of the spine due to the outbreath being twice as long as the inbreath Are you saying that out-breath being twice as ling as the in-breath is natural and commonplace? You may be right, but for myself, I feel fairly sure that when I am breathing most effortlessly and efficiently, in a state of physical and mental calm, my in-braths and outbreaths are about the same length.
Well mine is like 4 in 8 out normally and yoga says it is so thats as far as I can go with that. Alternate nostril breathing with retention is the ratio 1:4:2 In/hold/exhale. Sivananda Kundalini Yoga talks about the ratio of 1:2 inhale/exhale in conjunction with Kundalini and so does Subramunia and other places. In other words it is because of this ratio the Energy does not build up enough to ’stir the Serpent.’ But thats not the only thing necessary. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – as well as the granthis/knot protection and the natural flow of prana and apana out from the body dissipating energy. It takes a lot of will power to breathe consciously. I am sure you and any number of other people will re-classify anything I say about this so as to not do it with your new-found rationalization to not do it. If you attempt to breathe rhythmically it requires will and immediately your ego will start searching for excuses to get you out of it one way or another. But you can learn a lot about yourself simply by counting oms breathing in and out. Unimaginable peace/power and control arises from this activity after a couple of hours you will find the ego will then rebel if you attempt to NOT breathe rhythmically as the mind has again formed a new habit and the will is needed to break this new habit, as a result I find myself unconsciously counting out of habit an hour later. The number of OM’s you breathe in and out is not important and I change it as I go along many times. Usually I start at 5 OM’s in and 5 out but it is very likely within a minute for me to knock back to 4 or increase to 6. I may change 20-50 times depending on what activities I engage in. By performing this rhythmic breathing you learn to move in time with it and think in time with it. No matter how stressful an upcoming event is (like an interview), you will be highly composed, elevated and tranquil. Others will notice this. Your mind is fit for concentrating on what you are doing. I would not do this for more than 3 hours even though you may find yourself both fascinated and intoxicated by it. Getting started each day is very difficult/ego rebels every day until a habit is formed as always. 2 hours a day is good because doing it for less is not worth the trouble ego causes and doing it for more – well, I have done it for entire days but not normally. For instance, how am I going to run and exercise doing this and I have to interrupt it for pranayama. OM – thats funny I met my new neighbor day before yesterday, he said his name was OM! If nothing else this rhythmic breathing is an absolute life-saver when anxiety or outright fear is high. Also, nobody ever talks about it in this NG but you should consciously throughout the day suddenly stop what you are doing and notice if you have any nervous habits and stop them immediately. Tapping your foot. Tensing unnecessary muscles. Just wasting energy. Were you day-dreaming or focused on what you were doing? A cat is a good example of conserving energy. It lays lazily and stetches when it gets up (of course we are too smart to heed our bodies impulse to stretch upon rising). But when a mouse runs by in a single mighty pounce it catches it. Richard Hittleman yoga books are second to none along these lines. However, for those of you that may know Hittleman, he appears to be unaware of several things that are beneficial even though they are nervous habits. Chewing gum is very helpful as it turns out for increasing seratonin levels and
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Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About 30 years ago, I discovered the benefits of natural breathing. That is to say, breathing that is not interfered with by conscious control, but rather breathing that is controlled unconsciously by the autonomic nervous system, by reflex action. (I.e., pretty much breathing as you would if you were unconscious, deeply relaxed, or asleep). Lately, I have regained my interest in this subject, after coming to the conclusion that I waste lots of energy each day, controlling my breathing in unnecessary and inefficient way. I suspect that much of the time I have been hyperventilation, while at other times I have been consuming too much oxygen. I am now trying to learn the art of breathing during normal daytime waking activity. I have become interested in the Yoga teachings concerning breathing. However, I am a little confused because, on one hand, yoga seems to advocate natural breathing while on the other, it sometimes recommends breathing with a slightly constricting the throat (Ujjayi). The practice of yoga involves bringing conscious attention to different aspects of our body/mind. There is nothing "natural" about yoga asanas or pranayama. In the practice we bring intelligence to the mind/body. Left to "nature" the muscles will atrophy, the mind will soften. Eventually we die. The process of yoga is to improve on natural course by using the elements nature has provided. In the breath work like Ujjayi, we bring single minded focus to the breath. There are more or less four rules: 1. Breath through the nose. Control the breath by slightly tensing the rear nasal cavity to make a "breathy" noise. Also should feel the breath flowing past the back of the throat. 2. The lower back should be relaxed and there should be plenty of space between the pelvis and the ribs. The shoulders should be relaxed and rolled back and the sternum lifted with plenty of space near the heart. If you can’t get this in a sitting position, beginners will find benefits to laying across a paranyama pillow. 3. Sense the energy of the breath (prana) coming up the front body during the inhale and descending down the back body during the exhale. Visualize the source of the prana below and beyond the tail bone. D. The flow of the breath should feel natural not forced. The body will naturally breath without your help, harness that energy. Do not impose your will on the breath. At first bringing will to the exercise is unavoidable. Eventually the work of pranayama becomes one of focusing the mind on the task, and observing energy. The physical benefits of this practice will be greater lung capacity and reparatory efficiency as well as the benefits from the relaxation. Most importantly, the practice will effect the breath during normal life away from yoga. The flow of breath will be easier. Stu, Thank you for your helpful response. Yes – I have definitely noticed that after a good yoga class, I have a lot more available energy for the rest of the day – and I feel sure it is to do with my breathing. And, like you say, ther flow of breath becomes easier, it seems.
The energy boost is not really breath specific. It is Prana. Prana is the life force. On a physiological level, prana is the food/oxygen that comes into the body, it is the nutrients that feed the muscles, it is the sparks that fire in the synapses, it is the fluids that circulate throughout the body. Asanas and Pranayama are tools that unveil the channels of prana in the body. A Yoga practice will help prana move freely. We will digest more efficiently, think clearer, breath easily etc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The second matter which I am unsure about is determining exactly when I am controlling my breathing. If I am anxious, and I then lie down on the floor and relax, it becomes very clear that I have been interfering with my natural breathing pattern. If I let go of those controlling impulses, my breathing becomes easy instead of strained or tiresome. By bringing your attention to this controlling impulse you will eventually learn how to let it go. Repetition of this exercise is the key. Practice. Practice. However, one can not will yourself to *not will*. The trick is learning to just let go and be… When I subsequently sink into a calm state, allowing my breathing to become smooth, easy and effortless, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that one has relinquished control of the breathing. However, it has recently occurred to me that even at this level, it could be construed that one is still controlling one’s breathing, albeit in a more efficient way. The impulse that initiates each in-breath and each out-breath still has to come from the brain, and ultimately from the self, right? Yes, it is a primitive brain function. So I’m wondering if the next stage would be to become aware that one is still controlling the breath, and then relinquish that control altogether. What happens then? That is yoga. It is part of the process of self realization. From my own experience, I have stopped breathing altogether. Eventually, my own fear of dying urges me to recommence breathing. But then, of course, one is back in the realm of controlled breathing… I’m wondering if I should practise overcoming that fear of dying and see what happens. I guess that, in the absence of oxygen, one wouldn’t actually die, but would slip into unconsciousness, whereupon the autonomic nervous system would take over the breathing. As your reparatory system becomes more efficient, it is possible to get the necessary nutrients from air with little work. In meditation the breath slows down so much it appears to have stopped. A Pranayama practice prepares the body to hold that condition for a very long time. It would not be advisable to will the body to stop breathing altogether. What is the point? In my case, to overcome the fear of not breathing and achieve total peace – letting go of everything – including the breathing impulses. I am inclined to think that perfect peace can only be attained in stillness and in the absence of fear. When breathing is happenning that is not true stillness. Also, when breathing is happenning, there is fear, because it is (as I understand it) only fear whish keeps us breathing – fear of what happens if we relinquish breathing.
Another way to look at it is, when we are concerned with our stream of consciousness (Citta), with the events of the day for example, we will be agitated. That agitation is reflected in the breath. Prana is an expression of consciousness. As our mind settles and we transcend the agitation of our mind, prana of the body will follow. We allow the fluctuations of the mind to settle. A fellow named Patanjali discusses this at length in the Yoga Sutras written some 2500 years ago. <http://www.yogainstitute.org/sutras.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any assistance would be appreciated – particularly with regards how to best conduct one’s breathing during daytime activity, A consistent and regular pranayama practice every day will automatically free up the breath during daytime activity. Asana practice also has a terrific effect on breathing. The work will help expand the upper chest allowing for more space in the lungs as well as the heart. Note how an experienced yogis have barrel chests. <http://www.bath-iyengar-yoga.com/about-iyengar.jpg <http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20001104/hoodb04.jpg That is a combination of asana and pranayama opening the upper chest region. and how far to take breath-relinquishing during dee[p relaxation. Deep relaxation is all about *relinquishing*. Not just breath, but thought as well. Yes – that’s the way I see it. I just wonder how far to take it… all the way, perhaps…. or perhaps just as far as one can, in any given situation… What do you think?
I think you would benefit from a meditation practice. Meditation is the tool that will allow you to go "all the way" safely and effectively. You may want to ask around your area for people who teach meditation. Like hatha yoga there are a number of schools. Some free some have fees. Some religious, some secular. Look for someone that will teach you a form that resonates with you. — ~Stu – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Namaste, Jake
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About 30 years ago, I discovered the benefits of natural breathing. That is to say, breathing that is not interfered with by conscious control, but rather breathing that is controlled unconsciously by the autonomic nervous system, by reflex action. (I.e., pretty much breathing as you would if you were unconscious, deeply relaxed, or asleep). Lately, I have regained my interest in this subject, after coming to the conclusion that I waste lots of energy each day, controlling my breathing in unnecessary and inefficient way. I suspect that much of the time I have been hyperventilation, while at other times I have been consuming too much oxygen. I am now trying to learn the art of breathing during normal daytime waking activity. I have become interested in the Yoga teachings concerning breathing. However, I am a little confused because, on one hand, yoga seems to advocate natural breathing while on the other, it sometimes recommends breathing with a slightly constricting the throat (Ujjayi). The practice of yoga involves bringing conscious attention to different aspects of our body/mind. There is nothing "natural" about yoga asanas or pranayama. In the practice we bring intelligence to the mind/body. Left to "nature" the muscles will atrophy, the mind will soften. Eventually we die. The process of yoga is to improve on natural course by using the elements nature has provided. In the breath work like Ujjayi, we bring single minded focus to the breath. There are more or less four rules: 1. Breath through the nose. Control the breath by slightly tensing the rear nasal cavity to make a "breathy" noise. Also should feel the breath flowing past the back of the throat. 2. The lower back should be relaxed and there should be plenty of space between the pelvis and the ribs. The shoulders should be relaxed and rolled back and the sternum lifted with plenty of space near the heart. If you can’t get this in a sitting position, beginners will find benefits to laying across a paranyama pillow. 3. Sense the energy of the breath (prana) coming up the front body during the inhale and descending down the back body during the exhale. Visualize the source of the prana below and beyond the tail bone. D. The flow of the breath should feel natural not forced. The body will naturally breath without your help, harness that energy. Do not impose your will on the breath. At first bringing will to the exercise is unavoidable. Eventually the work of pranayama becomes one of focusing the mind on the task, and observing energy. The physical benefits of this practice will be greater lung capacity and reparatory efficiency as well as the benefits from the relaxation. Most importantly, the practice will effect the breath during normal life away from yoga. The flow of breath will be easier.
Stu, Thank you for your helpful response. Yes – I have definitely noticed that after a good yoga class, I have a lot more available energy for the rest of the day – and I feel sure it is to do with my breathing. And, like you say, ther flow of breath becomes easier, it seems. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The second matter which I am unsure about is determining exactly when I am controlling my breathing. If I am anxious, and I then lie down on the floor and relax, it becomes very clear that I have been interfering with my natural breathing pattern. If I let go of those controlling impulses, my breathing becomes easy instead of strained or tiresome. By bringing your attention to this controlling impulse you will eventually learn how to let it go. Repetition of this exercise is the key. Practice. Practice. However, one can not will yourself to *not will*. The trick is learning to just let go and be… When I subsequently sink into a calm state, allowing my breathing to become smooth, easy and effortless, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that one has relinquished control of the breathing. However, it has recently occurred to me that even at this level, it could be construed that one is still controlling one’s breathing, albeit in a more efficient way. The impulse that initiates each in-breath and each out-breath still has to come from the brain, and ultimately from the self, right? Yes, it is a primitive brain function. So I’m wondering if the next stage would be to become aware that one is still controlling the breath, and then relinquish that control altogether. What happens then? That is yoga. It is part of the process of self realization. From my own experience, I have stopped breathing altogether. Eventually, my own fear of dying urges me to recommence breathing. But then, of course, one is back in the realm of controlled breathing… I’m wondering if I should practise overcoming that fear of dying and see what happens. I guess that, in the absence of oxygen, one wouldn’t actually die, but would slip into unconsciousness, whereupon the autonomic nervous system would take over the breathing. As your reparatory system becomes more efficient, it is possible to get the necessary nutrients from air with little work. In meditation the breath slows down so much it appears to have stopped. A Pranayama practice prepares the body to hold that condition for a very long time. It would not be advisable to will the body to stop breathing altogether. What is the point?
In my case, to overcome the fear of not breathing and achieve total peace – letting go of everything – including the breathing impulses. I am inclined to think that perfect peace can only be attained in stillness and in the absence of fear. When breathing is happenning that is not true stillness. Also, when breathing is happenning, there is fear, because it is (as I understand it) only fear whish keeps us breathing – fear of what happens if we relinquish breathing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any assistance would be appreciated – particularly with regards how to best conduct one’s breathing during daytime activity, A consistent and regular pranayama practice every day will automatically free up the breath during daytime activity. Asana practice also has a terrific effect on breathing. The work will help expand the upper chest allowing for more space in the lungs as well as the heart. Note how an experienced yogis have barrel chests. <http://www.bath-iyengar-yoga.com/about-iyengar.jpg <http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20001104/hoodb04.jpg That is a combination of asana and pranayama opening the upper chest region. and how far to take breath-relinquishing during dee[p relaxation. Deep relaxation is all about *relinquishing*. Not just breath, but thought as well.
Yes – that’s the way I see it. I just wonder how far to take it… all the way, perhaps…. or perhaps just as far as one can, in any given situation… What do you think? Namaste, Jake
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About 30 years ago, I discovered the benefits of natural breathing. That is to say, breathing that is not interfered with by conscious control, but rather breathing that is controlled unconsciously by the autonomic nervous system, by reflex action. (I.e., pretty much breathing as you would if you were unconscious, deeply relaxed, or asleep). Lately, I have regained my interest in this subject, after coming to the conclusion that I waste lots of energy each day, controlling my breathing in unnecessary and inefficient way. I suspect that much of the time I have been hyperventilation, while at other times I have been consuming too much oxygen. I believe this is poorly worded. Most people breathe with no conscious control/automatically. When I started yoga I became consciously aware of my breathing. I don’t breathe a single breath or my heart beat a single time that I am not slightly conscious of. Everything I do is in rhythm to them. Even in sleep I am slightly conscious of both. But I did not say I consciously control them. That is a big difference. If you consciously control them, depending on what you mean by that, you are likely going to do a poor job of it. We do lots of things because we think we are smarter than nature. A dog will not eat when it is sick. We eat to feel better. Or a dog will eat grass.
Mike, Thanks for your response. Yes, in retrospect, my post was badly worded. I guess I did not mean that I consciously interfere with natural breathing patterns suring the day. I guess what I was trying to say is that I do it subconsciously and often badly. For example: If I get anxious about something, I subconsciously start breathing more shallowly and more quickly. However, when the source of the anxiety has passed, I don’t automatically revert back to slow, natural effortless breathing. I continue breathing to maintain the ‘fight or flight’ potential. I am now trying to learn the art of breathing during normal daytime waking activity. I have become interested in the Yoga teachings concerning breathing. However, I am a little confused because, on one hand, yoga seems to advocate natural breathing while on the other, it sometimes recommends breathing with a slightly constricting the throat (Ujjayi). Not during normal breathing! Ujjayi is a pranayama exercise.
However, I am finding it useful as a way of slowing down my breathing at times when I am unnecessarily anxious, or when there is adrenaline in my system and I need to calm down. Do you not think Ujjayi is good for this? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The second matter which I am unsure about is determining exactly when I am controlling my breathing. If I am anxious, and I then lie down on the floor and relax, it becomes very clear that I have been interfering with my natural breathing pattern. If I let go of those controlling impulses, my breathing becomes easy instead of strained or tiresome. When I subsequently sink into a calm state, allowing my breathing to become smooth, easy and effortless, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that one has relinquished control of the breathing. However, it has recently occurred to me that even at this level, it could be construed that one is still controlling one’s breathing, albeit in a more efficient way. Thats exactly why I said above this is worded poorly. The impulse that initiates each in-breath and each out-breath still has to come from the brain, and ultimately from the self, right? So I’m wondering if the next stage would be to become aware that one is still controlling the breath, and then relinquish that control altogether. What happens then? From my own experience, I have stopped breathing altogether. Breathing is natural. Stopping breathing is not natural. You interfered with it for it to stop.
I am not so sure. I feel that it is when I stop interfering that my breathing ceases. It’s not like I’m forcing myselfe to stop breathing; I’m letting go, so that the impulse to breathe does not occur. There is an exception to this but from what you said, you are nowhere near the breathless state where the impulse to breathe does cease naturally. But this happens because it is no longer necessary/the body does not need or want it.
I have experieced this too. It frequently happens to me during the hatha yoga class I go to. The teasher tells everyone to do the sequence in time with thier own natural breathing impulses. I sometimes find myself, lying there (or stading) dead still waiting for a natural in-breath or out-breath to occur – but it sometimes takes minutes. Meanwhile, the rest of the class has finished the sequence! This does not worry me; I think it means I’m on a deeper level of tranquility than the rest of the class. We all breathe naturally unconsciously.
I think you might learn otherwise if you did a study of my own breathing habits… Kundalini sleeps at the base of the spine due to the outbreath being twice as long as the inbreath
Are you saying that out-breath being twice as ling as the in-breath is natural and commonplace? You may be right, but for myself, I feel fairly sure that when I am breathing most effortlessly and efficiently, in a state of physical and mental calm, my in-braths and outbreaths are about the same length. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -as well as the granthis/knot protection and the natural flow of prana and apana out from the body dissipating energy. It takes a lot of will power to breathe consciously. I am sure you and any number of other people will re-classify anything I say about this so as to not do it with your new-found rationalization to not do it. If you attempt to breathe rhythmically it requires will and immediately your ego will start searching for excuses to get you out of it one way or another. But you can learn a lot about yourself simply by counting oms breathing in and out. Unimaginable peace/power and control arises from this activity after a couple of hours you will find the ego will then rebel if you attempt to NOT breathe rhythmically as the mind has again formed a new habit and the will is needed to break this new habit, as a result I find myself unconsciously counting out of habit an hour later. The number of OM’s you breathe in and out is not important and I change it as I go along many times. Usually I start at 5 OM’s in and 5 out but it is very likely within a minute for me to knock back to 4 or increase to 6. I may change 20-50 times depending on what activities I engage in. By performing this rhythmic breathing you learn to move in time with it and think in time with it. No matter how stressful an upcoming event is (like an interview), you will be highly composed, elevated and tranquil. Others will notice this. Your mind is fit for concentrating on what you are doing. I would not do this for more than 3 hours even though you may find yourself both fascinated and intoxicated by it. Getting started each day is very difficult/ego rebels every day until a habit is formed as always. 2 hours a day is good because doing it for less is not worth the trouble ego causes and doing it for more – well, I have done it for entire days but not normally. For instance, how am I going to run and exercise doing this and I have to interrupt it for pranayama. OM – thats funny I met my new neighbor day before yesterday, he said his name was OM! If nothing else this rhythmic breathing is an absolute life-saver when anxiety or outright fear is high. Also, nobody ever talks about it in this NG but you should consciously throughout the day suddenly stop what you are doing and notice if you have any nervous habits and stop them immediately. Tapping your foot. Tensing unnecessary muscles. Just wasting energy. Were you day-dreaming or focused on what you were doing? A cat is a good example of conserving energy. It lays lazily and stetches when it gets up (of course we are too smart to heed our bodies impulse to stretch upon rising). But when a mouse runs by in a single mighty pounce it catches it. Richard Hittleman yoga books are second to none along these lines. However, for those of you that may know Hittleman, he appears to be unaware of several things that are beneficial even though they are nervous habits. Chewing gum is very helpful as it turns out for increasing seratonin levels and Hittleman does not take into account what I call ‘minor powers’ of which chewing gum is one. It has psychological impact and can serve a purpose to relax other people. Minor powers are mystical things. Audible chanting of OM is also a breathing exercise with far more benefit. This is what leads to the breathless state.
Thank you for your suggestions. I will certainly take them on board. I’d like to get away from controlled breathing and more towards perfectly natural breathing – I suppose in the way that animals breathe naturally – perhaps because they don’t have a human intellect that instictively wants to control everything. My breathing gets rather messed up by this human control interference happenning subconsciously – so I am interested in any technique that restores natural, effortless calming breathing – espicially ones that can be done ‘on the fly’ – like after running to catch a bus, or after a near miss on the freeway, etc. ( or, in my case, after I get out of sinc, simply due to a bunch of minor things that may be happenning eithar above or below my awareness. Regards Jake
Response:
About 30 years ago, I discovered the benefits of natural breathing. That is to say, breathing that is not interfered with by conscious control, but rather breathing that is controlled unconsciously by the autonomic nervous system, by reflex action. (I.e., pretty much breathing as you would if you were unconscious, deeply relaxed, or asleep). Lately, I have regained my interest in this subject, after coming to the conclusion that I waste lots of energy each day, controlling my breathing in unnecessary and inefficient way. I suspect that much of the time I have been hyperventilation, while at other times I have been consuming too much oxygen. I am now trying to learn the art of breathing during normal daytime waking activity. I have become interested in the Yoga teachings concerning breathing. However, I am a little confused because, on one hand, yoga seems to advocate natural breathing while on the other, it sometimes recommends breathing with a slightly constricting the throat (Ujjayi). The second matter which I am unsure about is determining exactly when I am controlling my breathing. If I am anxious, and I then lie down on the floor and relax, it becomes very clear that I have been interfering with my natural breathing pattern. If I let go of those controlling impulses, my breathing becomes easy instead of strained or tiresome. When I subsequently sink into a calm state, allowing my breathing to become smooth, easy and effortless, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that one has relinquished control of the breathing. However, it has recently occurred to me that even at this level, it could be construed that one is still controlling one’s breathing, albeit in a more efficient way. The impulse that initiates each in-breath and each out-breath still has to come from the brain, and ultimately from the self, right? So I’m wondering if the next stage would be to become aware that one is still controlling the breath, and then relinquish that control altogether. What happens then? From my own experience, I have stopped breathing altogether. Eventually, my own fear of dying urges me to recommence breathing. But then, of course, one is back in the realm of controlled breathing… I’m wondering if I should practise overcoming that fear of dying and see what happens. I guess that, in the absence of oxygen, one wouldn’t actually die, but would slip into unconsciousness, whereupon the autonomic nervous system would take over the breathing. Any assistance would be appreciated – particularly with regards how to best conduct one’s breathing during daytime activity, and how far to take breath-relinquishing during dee[p relaxation. Namaste Jake
Response:
About 30 years ago, I discovered the benefits of natural breathing. That is to say, breathing that is not interfered with by conscious control, but rather breathing that is controlled unconsciously by the autonomic nervous system, by reflex action. (I.e., pretty much breathing as you would if you were unconscious, deeply relaxed, or asleep). Lately, I have regained my interest in this subject, after coming to the conclusion that I waste lots of energy each day, controlling my breathing in unnecessary and inefficient way. I suspect that much of the time I have been hyperventilation, while at other times I have been consuming too much oxygen.
I believe this is poorly worded. Most people breathe with no conscious control/automatically. When I started yoga I became consciously aware of my breathing. I don’t breathe a single breath or my heart beat a single time that I am not slightly conscious of. Everything I do is in rhythm to them. Even in sleep I am slightly conscious of both. But I did not say I consciously control them. That is a big difference. If you consciously control them, depending on what you mean by that, you are likely going to do a poor job of it. We do lots of things because we think we are smarter than nature. A dog will not eat when it is sick. We eat to feel better. Or a dog will eat grass. I am now trying to learn the art of breathing during normal daytime waking activity. I have become interested in the Yoga teachings concerning breathing. However, I am a little confused because, on one hand, yoga seems to advocate natural breathing while on the other, it sometimes recommends breathing with a slightly constricting the throat (Ujjayi).
Not during normal breathing! Ujjayi is a pranayama exercise. The second matter which I am unsure about is determining exactly when I am controlling my breathing. If I am anxious, and I then lie down on the floor and relax, it becomes very clear that I have been interfering with my natural breathing pattern. If I let go of those controlling impulses, my breathing becomes easy instead of strained or tiresome. When I subsequently sink into a calm state, allowing my breathing to become smooth, easy and effortless, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that one has relinquished control of the breathing. However, it has recently occurred to me that even at this level, it could be construed that one is still controlling one’s breathing, albeit in a more efficient way.
Thats exactly why I said above this is worded poorly. The impulse that initiates each in-breath and each out-breath still has to come from the brain, and ultimately from the self, right? So I’m wondering if the next stage would be to become aware that one is still controlling the breath, and then relinquish that control altogether. What happens then? From my own experience, I have stopped breathing altogether.
Breathing is natural. Stopping breathing is not natural. You interfered with it for it to stop. There is an exception to this but from what you said, you are nowhere near the breathless state where the impulse to breathe does cease naturally. But this happens because it is no longer necessary/the body does not need or want it. Eventually, my own fear of dying urges me to recommence breathing. But then, of course, one is back in the realm of controlled breathing… I’m wondering if I should practise overcoming that fear of dying and see what happens.
It is not possible for you to ‘overcome your fear of dying.’ There is only one way to overcome fear of dying and that is Self-Realization. In psychology there are 2 basic intrinsic human fears – 1.)Fear of dying. 2.)Fear of the unknown. (which some have argued is only fear of dying deep down). Death is a long-winded subject so unless you want me to talk about it I am not. Survival and past life trauma associated with death cause ‘instinctive’ fear of death. I guess that, in the absence of oxygen, one wouldn’t actually die, but would slip into unconsciousness, whereupon the autonomic nervous system would take over the breathing.
Yep. Any assistance would be appreciated – particularly with regards how to best conduct one’s breathing during daytime activity, and how far to take breath-relinquishing during dee[p relaxation.
We all breathe naturally unconsciously. Kundalini sleeps at the base of the spine due to the outbreath being twice as long as the inbreath as well as the granthis/knot protection and the natural flow of prana and apana out from the body dissipating energy. It takes a lot of will power to breathe consciously. I am sure you and any number of other people will re-classify anything I say about this so as to not do it with your new-found rationalization to not do it. If you attempt to breathe rhythmically it requires will and immediately your ego will start searching for excuses to get you out of it one way or another. But you can learn a lot about yourself simply by counting oms breathing in and out. Unimaginable peace/power and control arises from this activity after a couple of hours you will find the ego will then rebel if you attempt to NOT breathe rhythmically as the mind has again formed a new habit and the will is needed to break this new habit, as a result I find myself unconsciously counting out of habit an hour later. The number of OM’s you breathe in and out is not important and I change it as I go along many times. Usually I start at 5 OM’s in and 5 out but it is very likely within a minute for me to knock back to 4 or increase to 6. I may change 20-50 times depending on what activities I engage in. By performing this rhythmic breathing you learn to move in time with it and think in time with it. No matter how stressful an upcoming event is (like an interview), you will be highly composed, elevated and tranquil. Others will notice this. Your mind is fit for concentrating on what you are doing. I would not do this for more than 3 hours even though you may find yourself both fascinated and intoxicated by it. Getting started each day is very difficult/ego rebels every day until a habit is formed as always. 2 hours a day is good because doing it for less is not worth the trouble ego causes and doing it for more – well, I have done it for entire days but not normally. For instance, how am I going to run and exercise doing this and I have to interrupt it for pranayama. OM – thats funny I met my new neighbor day before yesterday, he said his name was OM! If nothing else this rhythmic breathing is an absolute life-saver when anxiety or outright fear is high. Also, nobody ever talks about it in this NG but you should consciously throughout the day suddenly stop what you are doing and notice if you have any nervous habits and stop them immediately. Tapping your foot. Tensing unnecessary muscles. Just wasting energy. Were you day-dreaming or focused on what you were doing? A cat is a good example of conserving energy. It lays lazily and stetches when it gets up (of course we are too smart to heed our bodies impulse to stretch upon rising). But when a mouse runs by in a single mighty pounce it catches it. Richard Hittleman yoga books are second to none along these lines. However, for those of you that may know Hittleman, he appears to be unaware of several things that are beneficial even though they are nervous habits. Chewing gum is very helpful as it turns out for increasing seratonin levels and Hittleman does not take into account what I call ‘minor powers’ of which chewing gum is one. It has psychological impact and can serve a purpose to relax other people. Minor powers are mystical things. Audible chanting of OM is also a breathing exercise with far more benefit. This is what leads to the breathless state. Mike Dubbeld – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Namaste Jake
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About 30 years ago, I discovered the benefits of natural breathing. That is to say, breathing that is not interfered with by conscious control, but rather breathing that is controlled unconsciously by the autonomic nervous system, by reflex action. (I.e., pretty much breathing as you would if you were unconscious, deeply relaxed, or asleep). Lately, I have regained my interest in this subject, after coming to the conclusion that I waste lots of energy each day, controlling my breathing in unnecessary and inefficient way. I suspect that much of the time I have been hyperventilation, while at other times I have been consuming too much oxygen. I am now trying to learn the art of breathing during normal daytime waking activity. I have become interested in the Yoga teachings concerning breathing. However, I am a little confused because, on one hand, yoga seems to advocate natural breathing while on the other, it sometimes recommends breathing with a slightly constricting the throat (Ujjayi).
The practice of yoga involves bringing conscious attention to different aspects of our body/mind. There is nothing "natural" about yoga asanas or pranayama. In the practice we bring intelligence to the mind/body. Left to "nature" the muscles will atrophy, the mind will soften. Eventually we die. The process of yoga is to improve on natural course by using the elements nature has provided. In the breath work like Ujjayi, we bring single minded focus to the breath. There are more or less four rules: 1. Breath through the nose. Control the breath by slightly tensing the rear nasal cavity to make a "breathy" noise. Also should feel the breath flowing past the back of the throat. 2. The lower back should be relaxed and there should be plenty of space between the pelvis and the ribs. The shoulders should be relaxed and rolled back and the sternum lifted with plenty of space near the heart. If you can’t get this in a sitting position, beginners will find benefits to laying across a paranyama pillow. 3. Sense the energy of the breath (prana) coming up the front body during the inhale and descending down the back body during the exhale. Visualize the source of the prana below and beyond the tail bone. D. The flow of the breath should feel natural not forced. The body will naturally breath without your help, harness that energy. Do not impose your will on the breath. At first bringing will to the exercise is unavoidable. Eventually the work of pranayama becomes one of focusing the mind on the task, and observing energy. The physical benefits of this practice will be greater lung capacity and reparatory efficiency as well as the benefits from the relaxation. Most importantly, the practice will effect the breath during normal life away from yoga. The flow of breath will be easier. The second matter which I am unsure about is determining exactly when I am controlling my breathing. If I am anxious, and I then lie down on the floor and relax, it becomes very clear that I have been interfering with my natural breathing pattern. If I let go of those controlling impulses, my breathing becomes easy instead of strained or tiresome.
By bringing your attention to this controlling impulse you will eventually learn how to let it go. Repetition of this exercise is the key. Practice. Practice. However, one can not will yourself to *not will*. The trick is learning to just let go and be… When I subsequently sink into a calm state, allowing my breathing to become smooth, easy and effortless, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that one has relinquished control of the breathing. However, it has recently occurred to me that even at this level, it could be construed that one is still controlling one’s breathing, albeit in a more efficient way. The impulse that initiates each in-breath and each out-breath still has to come from the brain, and ultimately from the self, right?
Yes, it is a primitive brain function. So I’m wondering if the next stage would be to become aware that one is still controlling the breath, and then relinquish that control altogether. What happens then?
That is yoga. It is part of the process of self realization. From my own experience, I have stopped breathing altogether. Eventually, my own fear of dying urges me to recommence breathing. But then, of course, one is back in the realm of controlled breathing… I’m wondering if I should practise overcoming that fear of dying and see what happens. I guess that, in the absence of oxygen, one wouldn’t actually die, but would slip into unconsciousness, whereupon the autonomic nervous system would take over the breathing.
As your reparatory system becomes more efficient, it is possible to get the necessary nutrients from air with little work. In meditation the breath slows down so much it appears to have stopped. A Pranayama practice prepares the body to hold that condition for a very long time. It would not be advisable to will the body to stop breathing altogether. What is the point? Any assistance would be appreciated – particularly with regards how to best conduct one’s breathing during daytime activity,
A consistent and regular pranayama practice every day will automatically free up the breath during daytime activity. Asana practice also has a terrific effect on breathing. The work will help expand the upper chest allowing for more space in the lungs as well as the heart. Note how an experienced yogis have barrel chests. <http://www.bath-iyengar-yoga.com/about-iyengar.jpg <http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20001104/hoodb04.jpg That is a combination of asana and pranayama opening the upper chest region. and how far to take breath-relinquishing during dee[p relaxation.
Deep relaxation is all about *relinquishing*. Not just breath, but thought as well. — ~Stu – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Namaste Jake
Response:
There is a way to do them that takes at least 1/4 the effort. A clue to the technique paritially involves realizing that most of your effort comes from self created (internal) resistance. 
Namaste Jake 
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